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Subject: HOA Board + Management Co. wantonly violate Bylaws, CC&Rs and State Law
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Author Messages
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


06/02/2016 3:53 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 2:00 PM
Troy today submitted a couple of comments that I hope the moderators deem civil enough for me to repeat.

Troy wrote: "As BankS has pointed out in the past, one not need be willing or wanting to volunteer to be a board member in order to effect change."

I agree. Also Troy has noted that, were he elected to the board, he'd be a minority and outvoted.





Although I agree that you don't need to volunteer to affect change, if you want to affect change from within (which is typically the quickest and less expensive) you need to gather support and it's far easier to gather support by volunteering. It's also demonstrating that you are willing to do the job vs. simply complaining about how others are doing it (which, in my opinion, can go a long way to gather support from those already serving).

I will also note, as I posted earlier, Banks has volunteered and Troy phrased it a bit differently.


Even if you are in the minority, you still can have an impact. Of course that will also depend on how your opinions, discussions and challenges to recommended actions are presented. Sometimes, the one most passionate about the issue should not be the messenger because the way they present issues may have the message go unheard. However, if you can present your message effectively, you may win a few over and slowly things will change.

By simply choosing not to even be willing to be part of the decision process and instead simply complain about how others are doing the job you see as beneath you to perform (which is how such a decision may be taken)you may be hurting your cause more then helping it.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


06/02/2016 4:11 PM  
Is Troy gone?
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 5:00 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 2:40 PM
Here's one of first things I did when i joined my board. Would like your opinion Augustin.

I looked at how much time we were spending chasing things that homeowners were complaining about. It was around 80%. I said that I didn't want to be in the business of putting out fires.

I got the board to agree that we would spend no more than 40% of our time on that stuff.

The next thing I said to my board was "Great. We've got some breathing room now. But is it right that out of the 40%, 38% is spent on the noise-makers. Don't we have the same level of obligation to those who aren't making noise. So we decided that the noisemakers got 20% of our time, the more quiet types got 20% of our time, and we got to decide what we do with the other 60%.

In my HOA, you can contribute without sitting on the Board. If you offer your time, we'll find something for you to do. If you want recognition, you can have it. If you want to remain anonymous, you can have that too.

I think that Banks would make a great addition to my HOA. So would you. But there's no room for someone who isn't willing to respect our decision on what our priorities are and how we're going to allocate our precious time.



NpS, at my former HOA, the business manager addressed what complaints she could on the spot (or started the ball rolling to remedy them) and passed the others to the board. A complaint was never ignored. Occasionally the HOA attorney was consulted. I think I have mentioned in another thread that my former HOA attorney never wrote letters to members unless it was a "letter of demand" and the Board had already sent its own letter of demand. If a person complained and we found nothing in our gov docs requiring us to do anything, we'd still write back and suggest xyz resources. If the member keeps complaining, the business manager would let the board know, and the board then okayed the business manager ignoring the repeat complaint. In one instance, a whack job was harassing the directors and the business manager by phone, complaining about things over which the HOA had no control. The police were called to document this. Ultimately the HOA obtained a restraining order against him. This shut him down. When I was on the board, all of us agreed and understood that we should never treat anyone differently just because his or her bark was worse than others. It was mechanical to respond when the complaint was valid, regardless of who was making it. The mechanical nature of responding took a lot of stress off. It also impressed some members who initially loathed me. Then I'd show up within hours on their block getting the irrigation system going and explaining exactly what went wrong and the timeframe for the full repair.


I think my current HOA's board, business manager and attorney are corrupt. The business manager is an owner here. He served on the Board around 2010 and got the board to hire him, at a nice salary, to be the business manager. Then the business manager convinced the Board to hire his (romantic) partner in a sweet deal. He arranged for other perks, like a larger office just for himself. The HOA board routinely sends the business manager to several-day seminars on association management that are out of state. My current HOA routinely ignores complaints until someone threatens a lawsuit and there is evidence he or she means it. Then they have the HOA attorney respond, at great expense and often retaliate by trying to humiliate the complaining member at meetings, citing him or her by name and saying this is why the legal bill is so high this month. This explains why HUD nailed the HOA a few years ago, and the HOA is still officially on probation, with HUD requiring quarterly reports (which the HOA attorney completes, massively lying). Turnout at the annual meeting is from 20 to 40% of the members. Not bad. But it's clear to me those unhappy with the Board do not currently have the numbers to get a majority on it.


I prefer the approach of my former HOA to your approach or my current HOA's approach. My intentions are to now 'go deep' and ignore the sturm-und-drang until such time as the board changes. I find relief in knowing that it's been no different since time immemorial. One picks one's battles. Time heals and causes change all by itself sometimes.


KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8592


06/02/2016 5:07 PM  
Owners at our HOA were able to get a a majority elected to the Board of 7 in one year--not 17-- at no cost other than some honest, straightforward campaign mailers. We immediately are able to effect many important changes. If someone cannot get enough support, i.e, other potential directors and a support group in general, there's some other problem afoot.

So, I agree with Tim's below:

"Although I agree that you don't need to volunteer to affect change, if you want to affect change from within (which is typically the quickest and less expensive) you need to gather support and it's far easier to gather support by volunteering. It's also demonstrating that you are willing to do the job vs. simply complaining about how others are doing it (which, in my opinion, can go a long way to gather support from those already serving)."
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8592


06/02/2016 5:28 PM  
Owners at our HOA were able to get a a majority elected to the Board of 7 in one year--not 17-- at no cost other than some honest, straightforward campaign mailers. We immediately are able to effect many important changes. If someone cannot get enough support, i.e, other potential directors and a support group in general, there's some other problem afoot.

So, I agree with Tim's below:

"Although I agree that you don't need to volunteer to affect change, if you want to affect change from within (which is typically the quickest and less expensive) you need to gather support and it's far easier to gather support by volunteering. It's also demonstrating that you are willing to do the job vs. simply complaining about how others are doing it (which, in my opinion, can go a long way to gather support from those already serving)."
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/02/2016 6:46 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 5:00 PM
When I was on the board, all of us agreed and understood that we should never treat anyone differently just because his or her bark was worse than others. It was mechanical to respond when the complaint was valid, regardless of who was making it. The mechanical nature of responding took a lot of stress off. It also impressed some members who initially loathed me. Then I'd show up within hours on their block getting the irrigation system going and explaining exactly what went wrong and the timeframe for the full repair.

Totally agree with you here. Consistency is key. People need to come to trust you because of your actions more so than your words.

My problem was the opposite. I objected to the fact that my board was only responding to the squeaky wheels and not bothering to make sure that the needs of the quiet folks were being taken care of.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 5:00 PM
He served on the Board around 2010 and got the board to hire him, at a nice salary, to be the business manager. Then the business manager convinced the Board to hire his (romantic) partner in a sweet deal. He arranged for other perks, like a larger office just for himself. The HOA board routinely sends the business manager to several-day seminars on association management that are out of state.

Understand your frustration. Does not instill confidence. Builds mistrust. Time for a do over.


Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 5:00 PM
My current HOA routinely ignores complaints until someone threatens a lawsuit and there is evidence he or she means it. Then they have the HOA attorney respond, at great expense and often retaliate by trying to humiliate the complaining member at meetings, citing him or her by name and saying this is why the legal bill is so high this month. This explains why HUD nailed the HOA a few years ago, and the HOA is still officially on probation, with HUD requiring quarterly reports (which the HOA attorney completes, massively lying). Turnout at the annual meeting is from 20 to 40% of the members. Not bad. But it's clear to me those unhappy with the Board do not currently have the numbers to get a majority on it.

If you can't start with a majority, then start with a minority. You may have to bide your time, but eventually you'll turn the tide.


Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 5:00 PM
I prefer the approach of my former HOA to your approach or my current HOA's approach. My intentions are to now 'go deep' and ignore the sturm-und-drang until such time as the board changes.

Not sure that you have as good an understanding of "my approach" as you think. A few questions you haven't asked me are: What percentage of the homeowner's in my community respect what this board is trying to accomplish (even if we ultimately fail)? A: 100%. Other than delinquencies, what percent of our people aren't happy about the way they've been treated? A: 0%. When was the last time we had a screaming match at meeting? A: 4 years ago. I think those are admirable stats.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 5:00 PM
I find relief in knowing that it's been no different since time immemorial. One picks one's battles. Time heals and causes change all by itself sometimes.

Agree that you have to pick your battles. Still an optimist rather than a defeatist.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/22/2016 11:38 AM  
I am posting what TroyS tried to post. I think it's civil, and I think members here would be interested in knowing whether mediation is going forward or not. Also those who do google searches would perhaps want to know how this situation is evolving.

~~~From TroyS2, approx. 2:30 PM EST~~~
Board meeting last night after executive meeting...they declined to participate in mediation.

They also passed two resolutions, admittingly, without even reading them. One of which contradicts state law and the lawyer premised the board's authority to create such a resolution on the Robert Rules of Order.

The board only has such powers that the bylaws provide. RONR does not give the board any special powers. RONR (11th ed.), p. 482, ll. 25-29

That particular resolution was to prohibit recording of the meetings, and every homeowner present questioned the board's decision to have such a resolution; basically asking what did they have to hide and why are they not recording the meetings to accurately reflect what transpires.

The board's response was to assume that they could speak on behalf of all the homeowners not present in asserting how they "might" feel about being recorded, and assuming that being recorded "might" stifle their participation in a meeting.

So the board used all the absentee homeowners as their "excuse" for not wanting the meetings recorded, despite the fact that the homeowners present voiced a clear answer to the board that they didn't care if the meeting was recorded and that it should be recorded.

After the meeting the homeowners communicated to me that it was clearly demonstrated by the board that they do not listen to homeowners and just act/vote as they see fit (in their own best interests, not the homeowners/association as a whole). One couple said they won't come back again, as it is clearly a waste of their time to speak their voice that falls upon deaf ears.
~~~
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/22/2016 12:19 PM  
I still find this one sided and self serving. Do not believe someone is being the "Hero" here fighting the injustice of their HOA. Sounds more like someone NOT listening and just talking out their end. Sorry but I call it as I see it.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/22/2016 3:25 PM  
It seems to me that Troy has a number of valid complaints of significant governing document violations. Troy tried to obtain mediation, as the law in his state requires. Now I gather he is deciding whether to take the HOA to court. If he does go to court, right off the bat I expect the judge to stare down the HOA and ask why on earth it refused to go to mediation.

I do not blame Troy if he ultimately decides not to go to court. Still I remain interested in the outcome here. I will support anyone reasonably trying to enforce her or his governing documents.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/22/2016 3:48 PM  
The Hoa is also Troy... The HOA is NOT a They or Them... It is YOU and your neighbors. Sue your HOA your suing yourself and your neighbors. Is that enough of a consequence to fullfill your wants or needs? Majority rules. If you truly have the support you say you have, then you never have to goto court or negotiations.

Former HOA President
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/22/2016 5:05 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/22/2016 3:25 PM
If he does go to court, right off the bat I expect the judge to stare down the HOA and ask why on earth it refused to go to mediation.

Unrealistic expectation.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JonD1


Posts:0


06/22/2016 5:14 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/22/2016 5:05 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/22/2016 3:25 PM
If he does go to court, right off the bat I expect the judge to stare down the HOA and ask why on earth it refused to go to mediation.

Unrealistic expectation.




You have to understand Troy told him to post that. Just parroting Troy's bold predictions.

The judge will " stare down the HOA" someone must be smoking crack!

Even when you lose you see it as a win.

Sounds like the HOA gave Troy two choices 1) see you in court 2) crawl back under your rock.

Now for the greatest legal mind in the world with no law degree the choice should be clear. Easy win for sure.........

Batter up...
JonD1


Posts:0


06/22/2016 6:43 PM  
On 5/26 the former member known as Banks boarded the crazy train and found value in the "unique perspective"
Troy in her view brought to this forum

"Thanks Troy. I hope you stick around as I believe you offer a unique perspective to the forum."

Seven days later as Chester then explained she was forced to terminate her previous account to avoid the "unique perspective" filled e-mails Troy
was bombarding her with. Maybe a case of to much of a good thing.....Guess the ride on this crazy train was short. So valuable was Troy's contribution and insight Banks closed her account to avoid reading more!


Posted By ChesterB on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Sure enjoyed the discussion between NpS and AugustinD. I didn't really enjoy all of the e-mails from Troy but I understand his frustration. I don't agree with how he handled his frustration but that was his decision to make. I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB.

Hard to imagine much real interest in the Troy saga when even his former cheerleader no longer wishes to hear any more.

Troy is spreading the word no one is really interested in.



ChesterB


Posts:0


06/22/2016 6:55 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 06/22/2016 6:43 PM
On 5/26 the former member known as Banks boarded the crazy train and found value in the "unique perspective"
Troy in her view brought to this forum

"Thanks Troy. I hope you stick around as I believe you offer a unique perspective to the forum."

Seven days later as Chester then explained she was forced to terminate her previous account to avoid the "unique perspective" filled e-mails Troy
was bombarding her with. Maybe a case of to much of a good thing.....Guess the ride on this crazy train was short. So valuable was Troy's contribution and insight Banks closed her account to avoid reading more!


Posted By ChesterB on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Sure enjoyed the discussion between NpS and AugustinD. I didn't really enjoy all of the e-mails from Troy but I understand his frustration. I don't agree with how he handled his frustration but that was his decision to make. I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB.

Hard to imagine much real interest in the Troy saga when even his former cheerleader no longer wishes to hear any more.

Troy is spreading the word no one is really interested in.






You misinterpreted my motive in changing my account. It's not that I wished to stop hearing from Troy, but it was becoming too much to handle in my personal email. His emails came so fast and furious it was hard to keep up.

Your behavior puzzles me. This is just an on-line discussion forum about HOA matters. You take these discussions way too seriously. It's nothing to get so worked about.
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/22/2016 8:41 PM  
A couple of days ago I got an email from a friend from my former association. He was concerned they were over billing the owners for their water and sewer.

The water bills for the association run in the neighborhood of $50K with $35K-$40K being the responsibility of the homeowners. The current rate for water is just under $10.00 per 748 gallons. So we're not small potatoes here. The Board changed billing companies in November and have been over-billing for the past 6 months. The Board had a coup last January and they have now censured two Board members, the past President and the current Treasurer. All this with the blessing of the management company. My friend's wife is the Treasurer, a position he once held while we both were on the Board.

I vetted the management company and recommended them to the Board. I called 6 large association and each association gave them high marks. What each of those association didn't know was how much the company was over billing them. Those 6 large associations (one being 1200 homes) are no longer with them. In 2012, my last year on the Board, delinquencies were $62K and going down. Today, they are at $300K and going up.

My friend is going after the Board and the management company and they are using the association's funds to use an attorney (same one that many people make reference to in citing California statues) to harass him. No one else wants to fight. My wife left because she didn't want to get involved any longer and we're no longer together because of that experience.

Sometimes standing up for others doesn't pay off and ain't worth it. I learned the lesson the hard way.

AugustinD


Posts:0


06/23/2016 6:21 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/22/2016 3:48 PM
The Hoa is also Troy... The HOA is NOT a They or Them... It is YOU and your neighbors. Sue your HOA your suing yourself and your neighbors. Is that enough of a consequence to fullfill your wants or needs? Majority rules. If you truly have the support you say you have, then you never have to go to court or negotiations.





When laws are being broken and a HOA is being grossly mis-mananaged, the courts ensure irresponsible majorities do not rule.

I think a HOA member has to weigh the expected benefit against the cost of legal proceedings to her- or himself (said cost including both dollars and the stress and fatigue involved); the HOA membership as a whole; the taxpayers (who cover much of the court costs); and the many other plaintiffs and defendants, having possibly more important matters, who seek court time.

But I appreciate your comments, Melissa, first saying how when you were elected to the Board, all were asked to cite the part of the governing documents when they made any claim, and now saying the majority should do as it pleases, regardless of violations of the governing documents.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/23/2016 6:37 AM  
JonD1, I am speaking from experience with five HOA lawsuits. State judges where I live pressure parties into mediation early on and keep doing so at every hearing. They tolerate the pro se folks who refuse mediation better than they tolerate the corporations. The judges naturally feel the corporations should know better because the corporations by law are required to use an attorney. The attorneys where I live caution HOA members and HOA boards that they should seriously consider taking matters to mediation, because the attorneys know that judges do not like HOA matters in their courts. Annoying a judge is just one of many bad moves one can make when bringing suit.

Many states have laws requiring HOAs to attempt to settle differences via alternate dispute resolution (mediator, arbitrator, yada). HUD asks HOAs to use complaint procedures that offer ADR when all else fails (and before going to court). Many HOAs' governing documents provide for ADR. This is all to avoid the high cost of taking HOA issues to the courts, which are overwhelmed with criminal matters, never mind civil ones.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/23/2016 6:59 AM  
For those readers wondering whether they should try to fight a majority that is not following the governing documents, Troy posted late yesterday that, "To date I have won EVERY legal battle with the HOA, this new MC and A will lose just the same." [Post was deleted by the moderators.] Troy, have you ever taken the HOA to court? Or are you saying that you made legal claims to the Board, and the Board eventually acquiesced? Have you sent a letter of demand to the HOA Board, saying in so many words, 'Last chance. If you do not agree to comply with xyz in the governing documents, I will file a legal claim against the HOA and its directors in state court.'?
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


06/23/2016 7:26 AM  
Augustin,

As I pointed out earlier, it appears that Troy has been banned.

For anyone following Troy's activities through the links he provided in his first posting, you will see that on his facebook page that he became very upset that his Board adopted a resolution that meetings may not be recorded. Troy then stated that the Attorney (who was at the meeting) was wrong and said [emphasis added] "Oregon Revised Statute established the right of an individual to record HOA meetings as it is both a semi-public and private meeting (restricted to homeowners) yet in a public forum (publicly open to homeowners)." He then referenced ORS § 165.540 as the basis for this "right."

In reality, if someone were to take the time to read the statute, the statute does not create that right. It simply doesn't prohibit it. Something not being prohibited is not the same as having the right to do it. Therefore, in my opinion, the Board would have been within it's authority to create the resolution prohibiting recording meetings. Granted, I don't agree with the decision that it should have been done, but the Board appears to have this authority.

This forum even discussed that statute in an earlier thread titled Subject: recording meetings - Is "not prohibited" the same as I have the right?


Troy, will obviously disagree.
I wish him luck when he fights the resolution in the courts (if he bothers to take it that far).
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/23/2016 7:44 AM  
My thing about recording meetings is that they are NOT official meeting notes of the HOA. They are recordings of just the meetings itself. The meeting notes are a completely different animal. Those take approval steps and documented. Plus meeting notes are official documents of the HOA for record keeping. A recorded meeting doesn't necessarily fit that criteria except for personal use.

I am not against recordings of meeting notes as a method of recording/notes. It becomes a problem when one wants to use the recordings on social media, support a frivolous lawsuit, or to incite negative actions. The HOA has a right to some privacy as the meeting may be open but not open to public.

Your not doing your HOA any favors airing it's dirty laundry. One of the reasons to have an HOA is to maintain it to keep it attractive to potential buyers. Putting a video up on YouTube or contacting the Media doesn't play for the sellers trying to get out. Problems in your HOA can be fixed internally not externally. No need in getting sympathy from the crowd if that crowd ain't your own.

Our meetings were always held open and discussed in front of all who choose to attend. They were even posted at the front entrance where the mailbox was located. There was no need to record as anything we discussed was documented, posted, and approved by next meeting. No need to make it a shaming situation. I've always found the one finger you choose to point out always leads more of them to point back at you...

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/23/2016 7:55 AM  
Tim, thank you for bringing some focus to the discussion here and citing the statute Troy is citing along with the 2012 thread on Oregon law on this issue. I think you are correct. For the record, the relevant part of the Oregon statute seems to be:
~~~
(6) The prohibitions in subsection (1)(c) of this section do not apply to persons who intercept or attempt to intercept with an unconcealed recording device the oral communications that are part of any of the following proceedings:
(a) Public or semipublic meetings such as hearings before governmental or quasi-governmental bodies, trials, press conferences, public speeches, rallies and sporting or other events;
~~~

AugustinD


Posts:0


06/23/2016 9:10 AM  
Troy wrote that he thought I should have included part (c) below in my quotation from the statute:
~~~
(6) The prohibitions in subsection (1)(c) of this section do not apply to persons who intercept or attempt to intercept with an unconcealed recording device the oral communications that are part of any of the following proceedings:
(a) Public or semipublic meetings such as hearings before governmental or quasi-governmental bodies, trials, press conferences, public speeches, rallies and sporting or other events;
(b) Regularly scheduled classes or similar educational activities in public or private institutions; or
(c) Private meetings or conferences if all others involved knew or reasonably should have known that the recording was being made.
~~~


Troy also submitted that, "A statute that does not prohibit Action X = a statute that allows Action X = a statute providing the right to perform Action X."

Troy, I do not think this is a logical argument. You are citing a part of the state criminal code as though it were a part of the state's constitution. I think this will get you nowhere in court. If legislators had wanted Oregon citizens to have carte blanche to record HOA meetings and similar meetings, then the legislators would have codified this in an affirmative statement of rights.

Troy also wrote:
~~~
In answer to a question above, yes, I submitted legal challenges in writing to the board via management company that was sent to the attorneys. After a protracted debate, they quietly acquiesced without formally admitting that I was correct and that they were clearly wrong.

Also, yes, I have written them a final "or else" letter to which they declined to respond to the same as they are declining mediation.
~~~

Troy also asked what actions by a board are illegal, in the collective experience of folks here. Troy, I think you have named other board actions that violate your HOA's governing documents and so are illegal. But on the issue of recording meetings, I do not have confidence in your reasoning here. I suggest letting the recording issue go until you can find a better legal foundation for your claim. I think it's important to try to be as fair as possible, when making a legal claim, so that you can be on solid ground to ask the same in return. This is even when the board is being ridiculous on other issues.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/23/2016 10:01 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 7:26 AM
As I pointed out earlier, it appears that Troy has been banned.

I've been posting here a while, and this is the first time I'm aware of anyone being banned.

That to me is the center-piece of the issue at hand.

For whatever reason, the moderators of this forum have said: "enough's enough." I don't know their reasoning re the OP, but over the years I have watched posts disappear - some were my own - some were from others.

Those posters who have figured it out avoid getting their posts deleted. But not the OP. He wasn't able to figure out what it takes to get along in this community without being censured.

So I'm wondering what must it be like for those in the OP's HOA?

According to Augustin, the OP says he won every dispute. But later the OP apparently said that they acquiesced without ever admitting they were wrong or he was right (as if the failure to admit wrongdoing was an additional fault to be heaped on the HOA).

Is that winning? Not in my book.

Winning for me involves an independent third party making a decision that one is right and the other is wrong. Or winning can mean that both sides reached a settlement that they both can live with.

But "I won because they retreated" is IMO a nothing.

It's just a repeat of the same self-aggrandizing proclamation of superiority over everyone else that we have become accustomed to.

Yet, I assume that the OP was banned for something more than proclaiming self-importance. Maybe it was the personal attacks against anyone who didn't go along with the OP's point of view. Maybe something else.

But rest assured, the moderators aren't here to waste their time with that kind of nonsense. So they ban.

Could the OP have avoided the ban? Of course he could. But he chose not to. And that's on him.

Could the OP have dealt with his HOA differently and achieved better results? Of course he could. But he chose not to. And that also is on him.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/23/2016 12:28 PM  
NPS this is not the first ban. Sadly it's happened to many like minded people like Troy who miss the point of this forum. It's to be supportive, informative, educational, encouraging, and open to all sorts of HOA opinions/ideas. We do argue, fuss, and fight sometimes just like any real world HOA. However, we are here trying to advise people to a better choice or option. No one here is perfect or right all the time. (Ahem... MelissaP1..That's me!)

BTW I have been banned a few times myself over the years as a few of us other regulars. It's usually well deserved at times admittedly but fair. The moderators do their jobs and appreciate them for being so supportive. This is one of the best HOA advice sites I've ever seen.

Former HOA President
ChesterB


Posts:0


06/23/2016 12:57 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/23/2016 12:28 PM
NPS this is not the first ban. Sadly it's happened to many like minded people like Troy who miss the point of this forum. It's to be supportive, informative, educational, encouraging, and open to all sorts of HOA opinions/ideas. We do argue, fuss, and fight sometimes just like any real world HOA. However, we are here trying to advise people to a better choice or option. No one here is perfect or right all the time. (Ahem... MelissaP1..That's me!)

BTW I have been banned a few times myself over the years as a few of us other regulars. It's usually well deserved at times admittedly but fair. The moderators do their jobs and appreciate them for being so supportive. This is one of the best HOA advice sites I've ever seen.



If you get banned how do you get back on to post again?
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/23/2016 1:06 PM  
Posted By ChesterB on 06/23/2016 12:57 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/23/2016 12:28 PM
NPS this is not the first ban. Sadly it's happened to many like minded people like Troy who miss the point of this forum. It's to be supportive, informative, educational, encouraging, and open to all sorts of HOA opinions/ideas. We do argue, fuss, and fight sometimes just like any real world HOA. However, we are here trying to advise people to a better choice or option. No one here is perfect or right all the time. (Ahem... MelissaP1..That's me!)

BTW I have been banned a few times myself over the years as a few of us other regulars. It's usually well deserved at times admittedly but fair. The moderators do their jobs and appreciate them for being so supportive. This is one of the best HOA advice sites I've ever seen.



If you get banned how do you get back on to post again?



New user name and new email address. If you present the old email address it will get rejected as it shows you on a banned list.
ChesterB


Posts:0


06/23/2016 1:14 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/23/2016 1:06 PM
Posted By ChesterB on 06/23/2016 12:57 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/23/2016 12:28 PM
NPS this is not the first ban. Sadly it's happened to many like minded people like Troy who miss the point of this forum. It's to be supportive, informative, educational, encouraging, and open to all sorts of HOA opinions/ideas. We do argue, fuss, and fight sometimes just like any real world HOA. However, we are here trying to advise people to a better choice or option. No one here is perfect or right all the time. (Ahem... MelissaP1..That's me!)

BTW I have been banned a few times myself over the years as a few of us other regulars. It's usually well deserved at times admittedly but fair. The moderators do their jobs and appreciate them for being so supportive. This is one of the best HOA advice sites I've ever seen.



If you get banned how do you get back on to post again?



New user name and new email address. If you present the old email address it will get rejected as it shows you on a banned list.



Oh yes of course.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/23/2016 2:02 PM  
I will tell you they can ban you beyond setting up a new account. So don't think getting a new name or email will get you back in. It won't. My banning was temporary and well deserved. The moderators were fair in their assessment. They can ban you on a permanent basis.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/23/2016 2:02 PM  
I will tell you they can ban you beyond setting up a new account. So don't think getting a new name or email will get you back in. It won't. My banning was temporary and well deserved. The moderators were fair in their assessment. They can ban you on a permanent basis.

Former HOA President
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/23/2016 4:40 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/23/2016 2:02 PM
I will tell you they can ban you beyond setting up a new account. So don't think getting a new name or email will get you back in. It won't. My banning was temporary and well deserved. The moderators were fair in their assessment. They can ban you on a permanent basis.



You know that for sure?

Didn't think so.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


06/23/2016 6:09 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 10:01 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 7:26 AM
As I pointed out earlier, it appears that Troy has been banned.

I've been posting here a while, and this is the first time I'm aware of anyone being banned.





NP,

As Melissa has said, there have been several individuals who I suspect were banned since the new policy went into effect (that I provided a link to earlier in the thread).

The few I recall (or suspect were banned) are:

The individual (and I suspect the group he brought with him) from Nevada who were taking over this site and wanted "informational voting rights" (that is for the membership to vote on every issue before the Board via the internet). The actions of this group on this site had the moderators create the new policy my earlier link discusses.

Then there was Susan from FL who said everyone on here was practicing law without a license.

Emily (I think from SC) who was banned a couple of times (but I honestly don't remember anything that was discussed).

Mike from NH who took his Association to court and lost each time.

I suppose the spammers have been banned as well.

I suspect that their were others but they apparently didn't make that big of an impression on me to remember them.




NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/23/2016 6:27 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 6:09 PM
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 10:01 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 7:26 AM
As I pointed out earlier, it appears that Troy has been banned.

I've been posting here a while, and this is the first time I'm aware of anyone being banned.


As Melissa has said, there have been several individuals who I suspect were banned since the new policy went into effect (that I provided a link to earlier in the thread).

I read your earlier post Tim.

Have a question: Hoatalk says "People abusing the site will have all their prior posts deleted and be banned from further posting."

Yet some of Troy's older posts remain.

So is that Hoatalk policy statement accurate?


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


06/23/2016 6:41 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 6:27 PM

Have a question: Hoatalk says "People abusing the site will have all their prior posts deleted and be banned from further posting."

Yet some of Troy's older posts remain.

So is that Hoatalk policy statement accurate?




Ask them.

If you think that they should be removed to keep their statement accurate, then contact the moderators. They are the ones who make the determination.




NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/23/2016 6:48 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 6:41 PM
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 6:27 PM

Have a question: Hoatalk says "People abusing the site will have all their prior posts deleted and be banned from further posting."

Yet some of Troy's older posts remain.

So is that Hoatalk policy statement accurate?


Ask them.

If you think that they should be removed to keep their statement accurate, then contact the moderators. They are the ones who make the determination.

Nah. Thought you might know. That's all. Thanks.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


06/23/2016 6:56 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 7:26 AM

For anyone following Troy's activities through the links he provided in his first posting, you will see that on his facebook page that he . . .




I discovered that I failed to provide the proper link in my earlier posting.

Here is the correct link: facebook page


NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/23/2016 7:18 PM  
For anyone who's interested, the attached link shows Troy's HOA's biggest problem IMO. About 1/3 of the houses aren't even in the HOA, don't have to follow HOA rules, and don't pay assessments. Truly a mess.

http://oakknollhomeownersassoc.org/index.php/okha/assoc_map/

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JonD1


Posts:0


06/23/2016 7:39 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 6:09 PM
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 10:01 AM
NP,

As Melissa has said, there have been several individuals who I suspect were banned since the new policy went into effect (that I provided a link to earlier in the thread).

The few I recall (or suspect were banned) are:

The individual (and I suspect the group he brought with him) from Nevada who were taking over this site and wanted "informational voting rights" (that is for the membership to vote on every issue before the Board via the internet). The actions of this group on this site had the moderators create the new policy my earlier link discusses.

Then there was Susan from FL who said everyone on here was practicing law without a license.

Emily (I think from SC) who was banned a couple of times (but I honestly don't remember anything that was discussed).

Mike from NH who took his Association to court and lost each time.

I suppose the spammers have been banned as well.

I suspect that their were others but they apparently didn't make that big of an impression on me to remember them.






The guy from Nevada was I believe Sam Judie. With his revolutionary " informational voting". Certifiable wing nut.

Mike Readon the man who was going to change HOAs nationwide. He TOO decided with his $50 online legal certification to represent himself in 4 lawsuits against his HOA. Final score Mike 0 HOA 4. Mike promised to smack down the board members and in the end take their homes. After years of legal battles Mike accomplished zippo. Certifiable wing nut.

Then we had the woman from NJ who sued over some gas line work authorized by her HOA which she did not agree with. She lost her court case and then went on to sue the sitting judge who ruled against her. She surprisingly lost that suit too. Certifiable wing nut.

Amin I think from Texas who claimed he had proof of insurance fraud but was to frightened to inspect the records. In his view HOAs were the same as cancer. Wing nut.

And perhaps a few whose postings were simply that forgettable. In all these cases in my view banning them was the right decision.
In most cases these people did not serve as board members and were not adding anything positive to their communities. Nor did they offer thing by posting their nonsense here.

And now Troy, who for 17 years has embarked on some failed crusade to prove how much he knows and just how right he always is. He offers nothing of value. And. I would hope the moderators would remove all his postings as a service to this site.

Yes, the crazy train from time to time pulls in here. Some on this site are happy to cheer folks like this on. They too are of little value and have not much to offer. Other than their self approved dribble about how much they know based on nothing.

This site is better without them all.

As I suggested Troy's 15 minutes now seems to be up. The WATCHDAWG will have to find another site to pound his chest and explain all he thinks he knows about HOAs.





RichardP13


Posts:0


06/23/2016 7:41 PM  
I was on the phone with a friend that lives in my former association. Troy's issues with "his" association pale in comparison to what is going in my former association. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/23/2016 8:18 PM  
The following from a thread that Tim referred to makes a lot of sense to me:

Posted By hoatalk on 04/16/2013 9:32 AM
We don't ban individual homeowners for coming here and asking questions.

However, there was a problem in the past with an 'anti-HOA' crowd trying to use this site as a soapbox, which is not productive for the members.

The point is that this is a place for the people that run and volunteer in HOAs/Condos to meet. Yes, individual homeowner questions can be useful as long as they are asked with a real interest in learning, not just coming here to complain.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


06/24/2016 4:03 AM  
The banning I have seen was mainly done as they had become rude and crude as did Troy if I recall. Spirited discussion with differing points of view is one thing. Insulting a person is quite a different thing. I have also seen some of the anti-HOA crowd try to bully their way around on this site. They get shut down fast.

Many end up leaving this site on their own when they see their beliefs, points of view, actions, etc. are not being accepted.


ChesterB


Posts:0


06/24/2016 7:00 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 06/23/2016 7:39 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2016 6:09 PM
Posted By NpS on 06/23/2016 10:01 AM
NP,

As Melissa has said, there have been several individuals who I suspect were banned since the new policy went into effect (that I provided a link to earlier in the thread).

The few I recall (or suspect were banned) are:

The individual (and I suspect the group he brought with him) from Nevada who were taking over this site and wanted "informational voting rights" (that is for the membership to vote on every issue before the Board via the internet). The actions of this group on this site had the moderators create the new policy my earlier link discusses.

Then there was Susan from FL who said everyone on here was practicing law without a license.

Emily (I think from SC) who was banned a couple of times (but I honestly don't remember anything that was discussed).

Mike from NH who took his Association to court and lost each time.

I suppose the spammers have been banned as well.

I suspect that their were others but they apparently didn't make that big of an impression on me to remember them.






The guy from Nevada was I believe Sam Judie. With his revolutionary " informational voting". Certifiable wing nut.

Mike Readon the man who was going to change HOAs nationwide. He TOO decided with his $50 online legal certification to represent himself in 4 lawsuits against his HOA. Final score Mike 0 HOA 4. Mike promised to smack down the board members and in the end take their homes. After years of legal battles Mike accomplished zippo. Certifiable wing nut.

Then we had the woman from NJ who sued over some gas line work authorized by her HOA which she did not agree with. She lost her court case and then went on to sue the sitting judge who ruled against her. She surprisingly lost that suit too. Certifiable wing nut.

Amin I think from Texas who claimed he had proof of insurance fraud but was to frightened to inspect the records. In his view HOAs were the same as cancer. Wing nut.

And perhaps a few whose postings were simply that forgettable. In all these cases in my view banning them was the right decision.
In most cases these people did not serve as board members and were not adding anything positive to their communities. Nor did they offer thing by posting their nonsense here.

And now Troy, who for 17 years has embarked on some failed crusade to prove how much he knows and just how right he always is. He offers nothing of value. And. I would hope the moderators would remove all his postings as a service to this site.

Yes, the crazy train from time to time pulls in here. Some on this site are happy to cheer folks like this on. They too are of little value and have not much to offer. Other than their self approved dribble about how much they know based on nothing.

This site is better without them all.

As I suggested Troy's 15 minutes now seems to be up. The WATCHDAWG will have to find another site to pound his chest and explain all he thinks he knows about HOAs.








JonD1 said "yes, the crazy train from time to time pulls in here. Some on this site are happy to cheer folks like this on. They too are of little and have not much to offer. Other than their self approved dribble about how much they know about nothing."
I know JonD 1 is talking about me. I don't care. Jon has hate and anger in his heart. What a pity because I'm sure he has a load of experience and knowledge he could share without paragraph after paragraph of rude and hateful remarks.

i will not be discouraged. No I don't serve on an HOA board but I am an asset to my community. Board service is not the only way to contribute to my community.
ChesterB


Posts:0


06/24/2016 7:03 AM  
Oops left out the word value in my post.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


06/24/2016 8:09 AM  
I will tell you an experience that sent me to this website. I used to post on another HOA website but it turned into a nightmare. It was one of those "Complaining for complaining sake" type of sites. Little helpful information. Lots of insulting HOA's and posters. A few times the site had to get shut down due to what I believe could have been lawsuit type involvement. It was bad.

One of the posters decided to take it upon themselves to take things "Off Site". They tried to google me and then post my personal address. They took it to threatening levels to not just me but other individuals as well. I had to contact their HOA because their threats were directed towards some of their members. They were completely off the rails. It was quite scary as you could tell they lost touch with reality. Even our worst posters here did not go to this woman's level. The site had to get shut down a few times for moderators to clean up.

Luckily, I never post my real information. She had googled the wrong name and posted a stranger's information. Which I had to contact the site to have removed because they would have been innocent victims. That is why one should avoid posting information that may lead to your real location or contact information. One may try to contact it who you don't even know. I was able to track down this lady's HOA to warn them of the potential danger.

So one does have to be aware when a poster starts crossing the line in a "Healthy debate" to "Insane in the Membrane". Healthy debate with difference of opinions is natural and educational. An Insane membrane is someone shoving their opinion down your throat and taking no other options. This lacks anything helpful or educational.

If your opinion, isn't being matched or challenged, then your opinion may need to change...

Former HOA President
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:944


06/24/2016 9:32 AM  
Maybe in an ideal universe online commenters would be solely allowed to post at sites like this under their REAL NAMES.

But at the very least such self-identification would be impossible to police. And maybe futile as an incentive to make everyone comment respectfully & competently.

And ironically the burden of monitoring & insuring a site like HOATalk.com could get a lot heavier. Maybe respect & tolerance for others' divurgent views may have to come from an inner voice, professionalism, whatever . .
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


06/24/2016 10:00 AM  
Posted By BobD4 on 06/24/2016 9:32 AM
Maybe in an ideal universe online commenters would be solely allowed to post at sites like this under their REAL NAMES.

But at the very least such self-identification would be impossible to police. And maybe futile as an incentive to make everyone comment respectfully & competently.

And ironically the burden of monitoring & insuring a site like HOATalk.com could get a lot heavier. Maybe respect & tolerance for others' divurgent views may have to come from an inner voice, professionalism, whatever . .


Good points Bob.

I just watched some old clips of Bill O'Reilly and Jon Stewart working each other over. What a pleasure to see a couple of guys with opposing viewpoints go at it the way they did. They took shots, but with a level of professional courtesy. And the best part was that you could understand each one's core message without having to wade through excessive personal attacks.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


07/01/2016 7:07 PM  
From TroyS2 at about 9:30 PM EST:
~~~Start Troy quotation~~~
"Board of Directors via the Management Company flat out REFUSES to respond to the County Mediators about their official decision to decline mediation.

That speaks VOLUMES about these people on the Board, as well as the MC and law firm."
~~~End Troy quotation~~~

How did you learn the Board is refusing to respond to the County Mediators, Troy?

Neither the MC nor the HOA law firm can legally act against a Board decision. I would not point a finger at either.

What are the main issues for which you have asked for mediation?
AugustinD


Posts:0


07/02/2016 7:29 AM  
TroyS2 (apparently banned from hoatalk.com, so his posts reach only those subscribing by email to this thread) responded as follows:
~~~
"I told thr point of contact at the county mediation of the results of the Board's decision following their executive meeting. They contact emailed the MC rep and to date NO response

My 10 page complaint for most current to latest complaints are posted on my FB page, that you link to often."
~~~

TroyS2, I do not think I have linked to your FB page or your blogspot page. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A list of the complaints as of May 21, 2016 appears below.

TroyS2, you posted on page 1 of this threat that state statute requires mediation. Can you please cite the state statute?


TroyS2's Oak Knoll HOA blogspot dated May 21, 2016 lists and elaborates on the following complaints:

1.
The Board of Directors violated the above Bylaw in cancelling and moving the Annual Meeting to a date and time other than [MAY OR JUNE] and ORS 94.640 (8)(a), (8)(b), and (9) in closing the Annual Meeting before it began by circumventing the meeting process with a mere postcard. In addition to, the homeowners were notified that the June Board Meeting would immediately move into an executive session without following the prescribed method for doing so under state statute (cited above) and the Robert Rules of Order.

2.
The Board of Directors, what few present, under the advice of the management company representative arbitrarily cancelled the April 19, 2016 Board Meeting in direct contravention of state law (cited above) and the Robert Rules of Order (the Association Bylaws have no provision for cancelling properly scheduled Board Meetings), thereby denying the homeowners present to be at said meeting and participate.

3.
The Oak Knoll Homeowners Association via the Board of Directors has FAILED to adhere to the Bylaws and statutory law where maintaining the records of the Association are concerned.


4.
The Street Trees Maintenance Resolution is in direct contravention of the Bylaws, CC&Rs and statutory law (cited above), that which fundamentally changes the terms, definitions, and intended purpose of the CC&Rs as they are clearly written whereas Section 7.1 is concerned.

5.
CC&R Section 7.1 FAILS to identify the “garbage cans” as a “common area(s)” or “common improvement” of the Oak Knoll Homeowners Association.


AugustinD


Posts:0


07/02/2016 7:45 AM  
I think the state statutes requiring mediation, and to which Troy is referring, are as follows:

~~~
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/94.63
(4)(a) Subject to paragraph (f) of this subsection, before initiating litigation or an administrative proceeding in which the association and an owner have an adversarial relationship, the party that intends to initiate litigation or an administrative proceeding shall offer to use any dispute resolution program available within the county in which the planned community is located that is in substantial compliance with the standards and guidelines adopted under ORS 36.175 (Rules for administration of dispute resolution programs). The written offer must be hand-delivered or mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the address, contained in the records of the association, for the other party.
(b) If the party receiving the offer does not accept the offer within 10 days after receipt by written notice hand-delivered or mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the address, contained in the records of the association, for the other party, the initiating party may commence the litigation or the administrative proceeding. The notice of acceptance of the offer to participate in the program must contain the name, address and telephone number of the body administering the dispute resolution program.


http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/100.405
(11)(a) Subject to paragraph (f) of this subsection, before initiating litigation or an administrative proceeding in which the association and an owner have an adversarial relationship, the party that intends to initiate litigation or an administrative proceeding shall offer to use any dispute resolution program available within the county in which the condominium is located that is in substantial compliance with the standards and guidelines adopted under ORS 36.175 (Rules for administration of dispute resolution programs). The written offer must be hand-delivered or mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the address, contained in the records of the association, for the other party.
(b) If the party receiving the offer does not accept the offer within 10 days after receipt by written notice hand-delivered or mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the address, contained in the records of the association, for the other party, the initiating party may commence the litigation or the administrative proceeding. The notice of acceptance of the offer to participate in the program must contain the name, address and telephone number of the body administering the dispute resolution program.
~~~

It would seem the HOA Board wants Troy to go ahead and take the HOA to court.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4215


07/02/2016 3:17 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/02/2016 7:45 AM
It would seem the HOA Board wants Troy to go ahead and take the HOA to court.

All they seem to be saying is that they're not interested in mediating with Troy.

Posted By AugustinD on 07/01/2016 7:07 PM
From TroyS2 at about 9:30 PM EST:
~~~Start Troy quotation~~~
"Board of Directors via the Management Company flat out REFUSES to respond to the County Mediators about their official decision to decline mediation.

That speaks VOLUMES about these people on the Board, as well as the MC and law firm."

"No" is not "Volumes".

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


07/02/2016 6:21 PM  
Aug

Why are you acting as Troy's proxy?

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