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Subject: Respectful perspective on why HOA Members revolt against HOAs
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JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 7:40 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/07/2013 10:51 PM
JonD1, you are out of line, but not the first time. Best to stay in New York, because our rules would not suit you or your style.

I do know of Fred's case first hand and he's dead on about the facts.



Richard.



My future plans had called for me staying either in NY or somewhere on the east coast. Rest easy.

If the "rules" you are referencing are those of Davis/Stirling you would be correct that type of useless politically generated nonsense does not suit me.


JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 8:08 AM  
Posted By FredO on 09/07/2013 10:16 PM
Posted By JonD1 on 09/07/2013 9:47 PM
"For every great board out there, I am sure there is an equal number of bad ones."

It just amazes me when people make comments based on nothing offer them as facts and are "sure" about something nothing more than THEIR uninformed opinion at best.





JonD1,

You want facts? How about you look at the history of all the original postings on this very forum? The vast majority of them are from people seeking advice on some very questionable actions of their HOA Board members.

I am sure you, JonD1, are very amazed whenever someone has an opinion that differs from yours and other people find credence in it.
Everyone's experience is different. You keep stating you have been involved in running your HOA for over 25 years and been the president for the last 10 years.
Yet, when you reply to posts on this forum, you come off EXTREMELY arrogant and condescending of anyone who hasn't done all the things you "say" you have done.
Gee, many people may be in the very early stages of trying to do things and all you do is put them down.

By your own admission, your HOA was very, very bad. So bad, that you finally (after how many years living there) took action to help fix it. By definition then, your HOA was a bad one. It may be great NOW (thanks to you) but it was bad before you took action. Or, am I reading your historical posts all wrong???

So, you actually prove out my statement. Your HOA is a good one now! You HOA was a Bad one before you got involved. SO, there you have it, for each good HOA, there is a Bad one....

By the way, I guess we should clarify. The HOA in and of itself is not bad, Just the board (or members of the Board) are bad. Again, that must all be forgiven because none of them would ever knowingly violate the Governing Documents, CC&R's, By-laws and rules.... (yeah, right!). I have seen, in ALL three of the HOA's that I have lived in, where one or more of the various Board members were self serving and not there for the good of the community.

It is not the property that I am speaking. It is the make up of the board. As the saying goes, one bad apple ruins the whole barrel.

My current Board make up is seven people. What are the odds that one or more of these people is self serving and has their own agenda that is contrary to the good of the community???

Sooner or later, this happens to all HOA Boards. Yes, Boards are temporary things (hopefully, based on election terms etc). However, having a small group of board members who have a lock on the majority of votes on a board (3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 etc) means that the community is going to be a possible cycle of tyranny. At least that has been my actual observation in my current HOA.

the good board members seem to come and go (get tired of the pettiness and flat out BS) while the bad ones just keep on and on (not wanting to let go of their power trip to be lord and master over a small community of people).





The vast majority of posters here Fred who come to find answers to THEIR personal issues with their HOAs either do not understand the issue fully, or don't want to understand their issues fully. They simply want things THEIR way with no fuss no muss. I want what I want but can't be bothered doing anything.

The OP here is an example of such. Every thing is run poorly but when asked what they have done well.................I've been posting on an internet website.


Fred perhaps you missed it but there is a big difference between an HOA not for profit corporation versus a for profit publicly owned corporation. Your rant about Boards voting themselves raises,selling off profitable components, outsourcing jobs, and looking to avoid paying taxes does not relate in any way to the operations of most HOAs. More than likely some personal expierence you have had which did not sit well with you.

You made the claim of a one to one relationship between the number of well operated HOAs versus badly run HOAs. You offered that as some fact. And your sample pool is the 3 HOAs you have lived on. My view far fetched.

Fred, cutting through all your rambling my suggestion to the OP in this post DO SOMETHING rather than come to this site and initiate a conversation. That might change something when posting here will do nothing.

And if you wish you hold up D/S as the be all end all for HOA governance all I can say is you've got to be kidding.

SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 8:43 AM  
JonD1,
You tend to pick apart and pick at a good number of posters here. When someone posts a response, we get what their general meaning is You really don't need to do that. This is just a discussion forum. No decisions are made here. We don't always have to have exact statistics to back up our statements. We are just writing our opinions. Using words like "equal" or "like", do not need your scrutiny to get the meaning across.

I was beginning to see your softer side here lately. I'd like to see more of that Jon because you really do have some great insight.
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 9:24 AM  
Quote from FredO
" You're right - my fingers were typing faster than the brain at this time of night. My apologies for missing that point of your post. You posted correctly and I I missed it. Mia culpa on this one!"

FredO, You are a real man in my eyes. You made a mistake, admitted it, and apologized. This is so hard for some people to do. Particularly a few of the regulars who post here. And to those serving on an HOA board of directors.
JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 9:44 AM  
Posted By SharonH9 on 09/08/2013 8:43 AM
JonD1,
You tend to pick apart and pick at a good number of posters here. When someone posts a response, we get what their general meaning is You really don't need to do that. This is just a discussion forum. No decisions are made here. We don't always have to have exact statistics to back up our statements. We are just writing our opinions. Using words like "equal" or "like", do not need your scrutiny to get the meaning across.

I was beginning to see your softer side here lately. I'd like to see more of that Jon because you really do have some great insight.





Sharon:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to make up facts and then try to pass them off as justification for their beliefs.

Fred's comments about HOAs and his "being sure" there is an equal amount of good HOAs versus badly operated HOAs might be something HE is sure of however it is certainly not a fact as he seems to suggest.

Fred now seems to suggest every Board and each member needs to be as pure as the driven snow or at least up to his standards, when in fact there exist people with flaws and limitations. Even among HOA owners.
Fred opinion seems to be HOW DARE THEY!

I have little patience for people who claim to have some vast knowledge of each HOA existing in America which they do not have. Then they make a false comparison between a FOR profit corporation versus a not for profit HOA corporation and suddenly in their world we like those corporate Boards ship jobs overseas, increase our own pay, ( we don't get paid)and avoid paying taxes. All claims I have NEVER heard being made against any HOA Board but Fred would suggest they all act in some similar manner.

Sam Judie, Crazy Mike, Amin and several others seem to be willing to voice their OPINIONS as if they are cut in stone facts when they simply are NOT.

If you can't start from an honest position of where things do in fact exist then climbing back off the limb becomes next to impossible.

2+2 does in fact equal 4.

Not 6 1/2 like in the world of some....................

#BAD HOAs = #GOOD HOAs is not a fact for so many reasons I can't be bothered to get into them.




MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


09/08/2013 9:54 AM  
Oh wait a minute here... A board member makes a mistake and admits it...Mmm let us see what happens with that statemnet... Gee our board member is wrong and admitted it, see how bad our board is??

Seriously when you have everything you state under intense scrutiny nothing you ever say is right or has some kind of second meaning. You rant about your HOA not making people follow the rules, so the board puts in a fining system. Well so and so did not get fined and I did for the SAME violation... You do not know if that person did not get a fine and is ignoring it.

Each situation is different and here you have to talk in general terms. Yeah I may be wrong that you can not make enforceable rental restrictions, but in California you might. Does that make me wrong or wrong in that circumstance?

Perspective is often lacking. You want your HOA to act the way you want it too. if that isn't what your looking for it is applying the rules that exist. Well if you do that, it is claimed selectiive enforcement. Let us NOT forget how everyone that is "friends" get special treatment. Considering that most people do NOT do business with enemies or people they do not like.

Yeah us HOA board members are nothing but a bunch two faced double talkers... You want us to enforce the rules just not against you... What else do you expect when you put that expectation upon us? No one has ever said you are right I am in violation and your doing your job per the rules...

Former HOA President
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 10:10 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2013 9:54 AM
Oh wait a minute here... A board member makes a mistake and admits it...Mmm let us see what happens with that statemnet... Gee our board member is wrong and admitted it, see how bad our board is??

Seriously when you have everything you state under intense scrutiny nothing you ever say is right or has some kind of second meaning. You rant about your HOA not making people follow the rules, so the board puts in a fining system. Well so and so did not get fined and I did for the SAME violation... You do not know if that person did not get a fine and is ignoring it.

Each situation is different and here you have to talk in general terms. Yeah I may be wrong that you can not make enforceable rental restrictions, but in California you might. Does that make me wrong or wrong in that circumstance?

Perspective is often lacking. You want your HOA to act the way you want it too. if that isn't what your looking for it is applying the rules that exist. Well if you do that, it is claimed selectiive enforcement. Let us NOT forget how everyone that is "friends" get special treatment. Considering that most people do NOT do business with enemies or people they do not like.

Yeah us HOA board members are nothing but a bunch two faced double talkers... You want us to enforce the rules just not against you... What else do you expect when you put that expectation upon us? No one has ever said you are right I am in violation and your doing your job per the rules...




So if a BoD makes a mistake best not to admit it because that gives a black eye to the HOA just like its ok for the BOD to commit fraud against the government but don't report it because it will harm the HOA. You and I definitely have a different view of things.
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 10:24 AM  
Melissa,

No one is perfect. We all makes mistakes. Some big, some not so big. I have respect for people who when they make a mistake, admit it, apologize for it, accept the consequences of it, and learn from it. I have little to no respect for people who know they made a mistake, then try to cover it up, or blame someone else or continue to make the same mistake over and over again. It usually comes back to bite you in the behind anyway.

I don't expect HOA boards to be perfect. What I do expect is transparency, fairness, and objectivity.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


09/08/2013 10:28 AM  
What fraud against the government? You take the HOa to a completely other level that does not exist. A HOa is a NON Profit corporation and not of the charity kind.

Here is the awful truth about those who donate money to non profit charitable corporations... When you give to that MDA telethon, that money goes to pay the salaries of doctors and scientist. it goes int the hospital pockets, Not into any of those kid's pockets or parents paying the medical bills if their children with MDA. That "free" wheelchair? The money is going to pay the company that made the chair.

So you do have those in that kind of setting and setup able to use the corporate "cloak". HOA's are different. The money collected is going to pay the bills the HOA creates. It also goes to collecting what is owed. The people ELECTED do this with NO money nor research.

So you want to compare a non profit HOA board member to charitable non profits you will find a HUGE differences. That being no one on the HOA board gets paid,they are owners, and have an investment in the HOA. The others are paid, most likely do not have kids with MDA, and do what they do to generate money to pay their salaries.

Do NOT confuse the two...

Former HOA President
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 10:35 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2013 10:28 AM
What fraud against the government? You take the HOa to a completely other level that does not exist. A HOa is a NON Profit corporation and not of the charity kind.

Here is the awful truth about those who donate money to non profit charitable corporations... When you give to that MDA telethon, that money goes to pay the salaries of doctors and scientist. it goes int the hospital pockets, Not into any of those kid's pockets or parents paying the medical bills if their children with MDA. That "free" wheelchair? The money is going to pay the company that made the chair.

So you do have those in that kind of setting and setup able to use the corporate "cloak". HOA's are different. The money collected is going to pay the bills the HOA creates. It also goes to collecting what is owed. The people ELECTED do this with NO money nor research.

So you want to compare a non profit HOA board member to charitable non profits you will find a HUGE differences. That being no one on the HOA board gets paid,they are owners, and have an investment in the HOA. The others are paid, most likely do not have kids with MDA, and do what they do to generate money to pay their salaries.

Do NOT confuse the two...




You totally lost me on this one. I just don't get your post at all. I was referring to what you said about Amin's post about his HOA accepting FEMA funds that were not justified. You said don't report it because it will cost the HOA. (not an exact quote).
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 11:02 AM  
Quote from JonD1

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to make up facts and then try to pass them off as justification for their beliefs."

Isn't that what politicians do?

Jon, my point was not to take every single word so literally. We all tend to add words for emphasis. I got Fred's points. However, I agree with both of you in the comparison of a nonprofit corp. to a profit corp. There are similarities but there are differences for sure.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


09/08/2013 12:18 PM  
Let me put this into perspective. Your are asking your HOA board to pay taxes fair and square right? Well that means that when the board pays taxes you ALL pay the taxes! It is NOT just the board members. The board trying to avoid paying taxes is a GOOD thing for the homeowners. It is less money out of the HOA budget and can be applied to other things. Most people I know do try to get as many deductions on their taxes as possible to avoid paying high taxes. What is wrong with the HOA trying to do the same? Seems to me if your board is trying to make the budget so to avoid being subjected to paying taxes, is showing responsibility. Anything considered a "Profit" is subject to taxes. In a HOA's case that is money not earned by dues collecting and not enough money spent on operations.

I would almost equate the HOA's taxes kind of like the "Marriage penalty". When you get married by a certain date, all your money for that year earned is subjected to taxation as a couple. Meaning you now have a bigger income to report if doing your taxes jointly. Many married couples find it better to file separately. The HOA doesn't have that option.

As for Amin's insurance issue. It was never a FEMA claim. FEMA was not involved. It was the HOA's insurance who wrote out the check. FEMA funds only cover what the insurance doesn't. I also believe the FEMA money also acts as a low interest loan situation. A person with more tax experience would have to explain all of that. However, the taxes would be handled differently. It depends on how the HOA reports the insurance claim money. In any case, if fraud had been found, ALL of the HOA members would be responsible for paying back the money and NOT the individual's who supposedly took the money. The tax man cometh when a special assessment is made to collect that money...

My other point in my other post was to say that do not confuse what it means to be a non-profit corporation. Too many here put the sins of other non-profits onto others. A HOA non-profit does not run the same. The real potential of these supposed crimes is very low in reality. People scream "Transparency". Well being transparent also means stop looking through things and making up things that don't exist. Your looking for ghosts in the wind or in every noise... Sometimes it really is a sheet...

Former HOA President
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 12:47 PM  
Melissa,

I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you put on your bathing suit and make sure its a skimpy one to show off your big "natural flotation devices" and travel to Washington to help GnomeX out with his HOA problems. He really needs your help so between the 2 of you, you should be able to get everything under control. And don't forget to "spank" those naughty children. HA HA!!!
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/08/2013 1:05 PM  
Posted By SharonH9 on 09/08/2013 11:02 AM
Quote from JonD1

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to make up facts and then try to pass them off as justification for their beliefs."

Isn't that what politicians do?

Jon, my point was not to take every single word so literally. We all tend to add words for emphasis. I got Fred's points. However, I agree with both of you in the comparison of a nonprofit corp. to a profit corp. There are similarities but there are differences for sure.





It's a well known fact that 85% of statistics are made up on the spot!


:-)

FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/08/2013 1:26 PM  
JonD1,


I guess you don't condone opinions in your corner of the world?

Let's see, we can postulate that 100% of HOA Boards are bad. Why, because no HOA Board is going to make "everyone" happy with their rules, by=laws or interpretations of the CC&R's.

So, yes, I was very, very wrong to state that I am sure that for every good HOA Board there is a Bad one.
Given this data, the ratio, instead of 1 to 1 should really be 1- 349,999 (if we take the 350,000 number of HOA's in the USA as a baseline).

Can you say that you are voted in by 100% of your members each election cycle? A simple majority, is by no means a mandate or a confirmation that you and how you run your HOA is perfect for all your members.

There is not an HOA anywhere that can say they get 100% agreement on everything.

So, if the perspective of the poster is any indication, and we're talking about humans, who can't always combine logic, business and emotions and come up with the correct answer to satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time, then my statement holds some truth. Because, truth in this case, is in the eye of the beholder.

Yeah, I said I am sure there are an equal number of good versus bad HOA Boards. I was being generous!

How many internet forums are there for people to come to and complain or seek advice about "bad" hoa's???
Now, how many internet forums are there for people to come and boast about how great their HOA board is? I googled it and this one came back with Zero results.

As long as people are involved, you will not be able to make all the people happy all of the time. As long as "emotional" reactions are part of the human condition you will have people get upset and come here to this site to seek advice or just vent and rant over their particular form of injustice.

As long as there are humans with different views, experiences, comprehension, you will end up with differing interpretations of the CC&R's, by-laws, rules etc.
Everyone wants to interpret the rules in their favor (including you Board members). As long as these variables exist, you will have people labeling HOA Boards as bad or good depending on how the rules are interpreted for their specific situation.

If you take personal offense to anyone who has a differing opinion than you, you are too tightly wrapped for your own good. Maybe it's time for a break?

Not all of the problems on this website are the result of the OP not having read their governing documents. I see too often, on this website, where issues come down to personality issues.

SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 1:28 PM  
Oh Fred. That's great!! Love your wit.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


09/08/2013 2:06 PM  
Sharon & Fred,

Thanks!
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/08/2013 2:10 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 09/08/2013 8:08 AM
Posted By FredO on 09/07/2013 10:16 PM



The vast majority of posters here Fred who come to find answers to THEIR personal issues with their HOAs either do not understand the issue fully, or don't want to understand their issues fully. They simply want things THEIR way with no fuss no muss. I want what I want but can't be bothered doing anything.

The OP here is an example of such. Every thing is run poorly but when asked what they have done well.................I've been posting on an internet website.


Fred perhaps you missed it but there is a big difference between an HOA not for profit corporation versus a for profit publicly owned corporation. Your rant about Boards voting themselves raises,selling off profitable components, outsourcing jobs, and looking to avoid paying taxes does not relate in any way to the operations of most HOAs. More than likely some personal expierence you have had which did not sit well with you.

You made the claim of a one to one relationship between the number of well operated HOAs versus badly run HOAs. You offered that as some fact. And your sample pool is the 3 HOAs you have lived on. My view far fetched.

Fred, cutting through all your rambling my suggestion to the OP in this post DO SOMETHING rather than come to this site and initiate a conversation. That might change something when posting here will do nothing.

And if you wish you hold up D/S as the be all end all for HOA governance all I can say is you've got to be kidding.





Gee JonD1, you are very judgmental. How many times has someone come to this forum seeking advice to maybe see if they are on the right track?
You have some wonderful insights (some of the time). I have, believe it or not, learned some thing's from your posts. Other times, you just piss me off by being an Putz.

You are not the all knowing, HOA God (as much as you might think you are). You seem to pick on people and that's your thing.

I did not miss anything about the differences between a corporate board and an HOA board. I merely mentioned things that a corporate board may do that is really "self serving". I compared that to some of the things I have actually seen in my HOA's and read on this forum when a board member does something that is also self serving.

Yes, enforcing rules selectively is one of them. Joining the board to make sure you get the variance for your property improvement (that is outside the bounds of the ACC guidelines) is a common one. The ACC committee would never dare to say "NO" to a board member for their project.... (seen that one too many times. It is corruption plan and simple).

As for life experiences not sitting well with me, I 'd have to say you hit that nail right on the head. However, my reference was what the whole "occupy" movement was about last year...

These were nothing more than examples to illustrate my point. That being, that I have seen way too many board members who joined their HOA Board out of a self serving interest.

Why did you join your board? Was there a self serving interest involved? Even if it was only to protect "YOUR" home value, you did it by kicking the bad board out and coming to power yourself. You probably did not do it to keep everyones property value up. That was just a side consequence of you protecting your own property value.

Everyone has their own personal agenda on a board. There is nothing noble about it. We have people on our board who want to change the ACC rules, the parking rules, the pool use rules, the private property aspect rules and so forth. They all want to mold the HOA into their personal vision of what they want.
They (we all) want the HOA to be the image of what we want. Sometimes, if we're lucky, this coincides with the governing documents. other times, this deviates from the documents and that is when problems start.


You didn't like my numbers in my opinion statement, fine. It is not based on a view of the three HOA's I lived in. It was also based on the number of posts on this and the many other websites about HOA's gone bad. I have yet to see anyone posting about how perfect their HOA was before they moved in and how it continues to be perfect many years later...

You don't like my numbers, well 1 to 1 was flat out wrong. It is more likely 1 to 349,999 (if we take the number of HOA's in the US to be 350,000 as was posted by someone else). You can't please all the people all the time. So, if an individuals perception is the rule of measure then we can postulate that all HOA's are bad at some point.... lol

You may think you're perfect but are you really? Do you get 100% of the votes at each election or is there a small percentage that vote against you?
If good is defined as making the individual happy with your actions, then no HOA is good.

it all depends on perspective. Just as you are so frustrated by the people who are involved in problems that would not exist "IF" they had read their governing documents....

My statements are very valid since they are opinions. If you don't like my opinion then that seems to be your own issue.


JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


09/08/2013 2:41 PM  
Posted By SharonH9 on 09/08/2013 10:10 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/08/2013 9:54 AM
Oh wait a minute here... A board member makes a mistake and admits it...Mmm let us see what happens with that statemnet... Gee our board member is wrong and admitted it, see how bad our board is??

Seriously when you have everything you state under intense scrutiny nothing you ever say is right or has some kind of second meaning. You rant about your HOA not making people follow the rules, so the board puts in a fining system. Well so and so did not get fined and I did for the SAME violation... You do not know if that person did not get a fine and is ignoring it.

Each situation is different and here you have to talk in general terms. Yeah I may be wrong that you can not make enforceable rental restrictions, but in California you might. Does that make me wrong or wrong in that circumstance?

Perspective is often lacking. You want your HOA to act the way you want it too. if that isn't what your looking for it is applying the rules that exist. Well if you do that, it is claimed selectiive enforcement. Let us NOT forget how everyone that is "friends" get special treatment. Considering that most people do NOT do business with enemies or people they do not like.

Yeah us HOA board members are nothing but a bunch two faced double talkers... You want us to enforce the rules just not against you... What else do you expect when you put that expectation upon us? No one has ever said you are right I am in violation and your doing your job per the rules...




So if a BoD makes a mistake best not to admit it because that gives a black eye to the HOA just like its ok for the BOD to commit fraud against the government but don't report it because it will harm the HOA. You and I definitely have a different view of things.




Sharon

I do not believe Mel was advocating anything illegal.

Do remember that tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is illegal.
JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 3:31 PM  
Posted By SharonH9 on 09/08/2013 11:02 AM
Quote from JonD1

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to make up facts and then try to pass them off as justification for their beliefs."

Isn't that what politicians do?

Jon, my point was not to take every single word so literally. We all tend to add words for emphasis. I got Fred's points. However, I agree with both of you in the comparison of a nonprofit corp. to a profit corp. There are similarities but there are differences for sure.





Sharon:

When folks like Fred make comments that they have no basis for making we can hope people see through their OPINIONS or we can offer clarification or request some supporting facts. Fred has no facts to support many of his statements. IMO better to point out his cloudy thought process or run the risk of others believing his "facts".

Many folks come to this site and make statements for which they have NO support. Amin makes claims against his HOA but has no proof. Then he attacks every single Board member and suggests we are like "gang members" and some sort of organized crime network. Crazy Mike with whom Fred and others found kinsship would make claims and promises he could never prove or successfully accomplish. To the disappointment of some Mike's star fell out of orbit just as fast as it rose. Another anti-HOA HERO bites the dust. 10 years of failure under his belt but some here swallowed the kool-aid he was selling as if he had some important point to make.

So I get tired and bored with folks like Fred who pull their "facts" out of thim air and throw them up as some sort of burning bush that he now shares with the rest of us. Sorry, but Fred and I go way back so what he says and claims draws my interest.

Politicians well that is a whole other subject. One in fact that runs my stomach. But to be short YES on occasion they will offer their opinions as facts and in other cases they will simply lie. And most people don't have the ability to see through their BS parade so it would be best to call them out as well. A little country named Syria comes to mind. What are the facts? What is the truth? Or is it really just what they can get YOU to beleive.

Sad reality today the truth gets lost when it serves the interests of some.

But thanks for ruining my dinner!

Fred tried and failed to make a case some for profit Board acting in their own interest somehow equates to an HOA Board. His examples of misbehavior were NOT common links between a corporate Board and an HOA Board. But if you say things enough times they then become the truth.

Fred's understanding of the operations of an HOA are limited. The real problem lies in the fact Fred doesn't understand his own limitations in this area.

Have a good night our there in Iowa Sharon. Almost time for football. Giants and Cowboys should be a good one! Lets hope so............

SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 3:35 PM  
Yep! Look at me I just exposed my HOA committed fraud!!! I caught them red-handed. Here is the proof! Look I am the Hero here and exposed HOA's that they are crooked evil doers out to rip people off!!! Woo-hoo!!! I am a champion for the people!!!

WHAT??? Do you mean I am a MEMBER of the HOA? The very one I just proved committed fraud? Really? I am a MEMBER of a HOA??? When did that happen??? What do you mean my HOA now has to pay all those funds back? Plus fines for punishment? I don't understand why I have to pay a special assessment and my neighbors??? What do you mean MY money funds the HOA? It is ONLY funded by the dues we ALL pay?

Let's put it in terms you can understand... You are ALL on a boat. Each one of you paid money to own that boat and to use a seat on that boat. One of the designated "crew" members pokes a hole in the boat. You stand up and point the finger to the crew member in front of everyone. However, you are standing IN that boat that now has a hole in it. Who do you think is holding the buckets to bail the water out? Everyone on that boat... You don't poke holes in a boat your sitting in and you don't poke your fingers at the one poking the holes...Because the people with the buckets are wanting to toss BOTH of you out!

It is NOT about not seeing the records or hiding anything. It is about the FACT that when you do go on a hunting expedition, sometimes you shoot yourself in your own foot.

John,

The above post was submitted by Melissa. Her posts seem to reveal that to expose the HOA to any liability by reporting fraud or by admitting a mistake is not something a board member should do.

What I am saying is that board members should have the integrity to do both. Keeping your mouth shut isn't illegal in many instances but I believe it says something about the integrity of an individual.
JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 3:45 PM  
Fred it would seem you have trouble with the English language as well.

"I am sure............" suggests knowledge or understanding. Neither of which you had to back up your comments.

IMO, I would think, I believe, my view would be, my feeling would be you see THOSE suggest OPINIONS.

Feel free to use any of those next time.

But I do now like the way you now backtrack from your own words and try to explain away the logic you used to cover their failings.

And as to your explanation of property vlaues and motivations for joining MY Board I don't have the time or desire to explain either to YOU. You'll simply twist what was said to suit your views.

Oh do you still stand by the statement that the real estate collapse was caused by people in NY? Now that was a fact right?

Cause Fred says so?

Your posts and comments despite your attempts to pass them off as knowledgeble are many times full of holes and baseless.

So keep posting your factoids and I will point out their shortcomings.

FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/08/2013 4:19 PM  
Gee JonD1,

You're quite the keyboard commando. A real New York tough guy. Probably a guy sitting in mommy's basement trying to making up for all your short comings by pretending to be the all knowing HOA god.

Hmm, 10 years as president of your HOA and the attitude you show on this forum against all who come here seeking advice or knowledge. You actually make my case for me about when someone has been on their board too long. Is the job getting to you? Do you find yourself insulting the members of your HOA more than helping them? If so, maybe it's time to take a break. I am sure you HOA will not fall apart without you (Yep, thats a statement of FACT- they will survive without you)

Let's see, In "MY" opinion, you're a nutcase, cyber stalker who needs to get a life.

Do yourself a favor and just pass on over any of my posts. I am not posting for you.

If you can't accept that everyone has a different experience with HOA's then you really have no business being on this forum.


You have a really hard time understanding statements and take things out of context. One indisputable fact is that your postings on this forum show how little you actually know. How many HOA's have you lived in....? Just the one right? Wow, from that, you understand everything there is know about all HOA's in the US. Really? Seriously..... The fact that you live in one HOA, been involved running it for 25 years and been President for 10 makes you an expert on the other 350,000 odd HOA's in the USA.

You are of the belief that all Governing documents are correct and follow the law? You are of the belief that no HOA Board can be a bad one? Yet, you only got involved in your HOA "AFTER" you determined that they were a Bad HOA Board.... and the sorry thing is that you think you are the solution....

My statement that an HOA board can be bad or corrupt the intention of the governing documents does not sit well with you. Yet, it is precisely this sentiment that got you motivated to change things in your own HOA.

Like I said, your postings serve as great entertainment to illustrate all that is bad with Board members.... Your attitude spells it out clearly.

God help the members of your HOA. You and your grandiose delusions of grandeur... just go crawl back into the abyss from which you came.
GnomeX
(Washington)

Posts:253


09/08/2013 4:33 PM  
Posted By FredO on 09/08/2013 4:19 PM
Gee JonD1,

You're quite the keyboard commando. A real New York tough guy. Probably a guy sitting in mommy's basement trying to making up for all your short comings by pretending to be the all knowing HOA god.




Board members are supposed to sit here and take rude insults such as yours? People like you want to spit on people that do a thankless job then play the victim when they get tired of your sophomoric & juvenile antics.

You are NOT here asking for advice. You came here to start talking trash. You came here to just to start levying baseless accusations and insults in your anti-HOA jihad.
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/08/2013 4:58 PM  
Posted By GnomeX on 09/08/2013 4:33 PM
Posted By FredO on 09/08/2013 4:19 PM
Gee JonD1,

You're quite the keyboard commando. A real New York tough guy. Probably a guy sitting in mommy's basement trying to making up for all your short comings by pretending to be the all knowing HOA god.




Board members are supposed to sit here and take rude insults such as yours? People like you want to spit on people that do a thankless job then play the victim when they get tired of your sophomoric & juvenile antics.

You are NOT here asking for advice. You came here to start talking trash. You came here to just to start levying baseless accusations and insults in your anti-HOA jihad.




Okay fellas. Get your testosterone under control. I'm sorry I started this back and forth banter between you guys. Somehow I find myself in the thick of the controversy. Sit back, relax, and watch some football.

GnomeX, I know you are facing a difficult situation within your HoA and you have given the members ample time to pay up. I apologize for my crack about Melissa coming to help you out. It was meant as a joke so please don't take it seriously. I enjoyed your joke about spanking your wayward members.

I explained what my board members are like. So you see board members and members can be equally annoying and a pain in the ass. When people buy a home in a neighborhood, how do you know what the dynamics of that neighborhood will be? You don't know. It's one of the biggest unknowns home buyers encounter.
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/08/2013 5:21 PM  
Posted By GnomeX on 09/08/2013 4:33 PM
Posted By FredO on 09/08/2013 4:19 PM
Gee JonD1,


You are NOT here asking for advice. You came here to start talking trash. You came here to just to start levying baseless accusations and insults in your anti-HOA jihad.




It is great that you can label my statements as baseless accusations! Have I stated anything about you or your HOA? Are you a member of my HOA? Have you witnessed firsthand what I have witnessed or been victim of? Baseless you call it. Well, you've shown what you're made of. Remember, as you are so frequently stating - you are making accusations about the very things you are guilty of.... So, I can take from your postings that you are full of crap then...??


I am not anti-HOA. I am anti corrupt board members who act as though they are gods and above the rules. I am against people who think they are above the rules that we all agree to live by when we buy into a thing called an HOA.

I am against Board members who are intent on taking the HOA down a path of their own choosing instead of maintaining the developers vision of the property.

I am against HOA Board members who are corrupt and fabricate non-compliances in order to bully the general membership into hiding.
For years our board did these things. They automatically issued non-compliances to new members just to make them avoid the meetings and comply with whatever they wanted. If you bully someone new to the association they are very likely to not attend meetings or will not return ballots because they just want to be left alone and not be a target. The new members feel attacked and isolated. Do they even want to venture out and be a part of the neighborhood after that?

This is a great process to beat a new neighbor into submission as it were.

yep, this sort of stuff goes on. I saw it here at my HOA. I have been the victim of it. So, the bullies stay on the board because over 2/3rds of the ballots never get returned due to the bullying. Then the bullies get re-voted onto the board by the percentage of returned votes...

Is that any way to run an HOA? It certainly allows a path for the power hungry control freaks to stay in charge.
We have over 200 members but only 20-25 show at monthly meetings. In our yearly elections, barely 60 ballots are returned.

I would have to say that the board members who are long serving are not serving out of apathy from the rest of the community. They have bullied people into hiding and just going along to get along.

Turns out, the current and recent past board members here are the worst violators of our CC&R's and rules. They violate them with impunity. If anyone sends in a complaint letter, that person suddenly becomes a target of their cohorts wrath (the cohorts being the current serving board members who are their friends.)

Seen it happen all too often in this HOA. never saw it in other HOA's I lived in.

Yet, when someone comes to a forum like this to seek advice on how to correct this we get blamed for not reading our governing documents.... huh? What? where in the governing documents does it say this is acceptable behavior...?

Is there money being stolen from the HOA members? No! Are they committing fraud? Could be/ Are they committing extortion? Again, could be?
What would you call it when you are threatened with fictitious fines and foreclosure because you speak up about the HOA Board members not following our rules or CC&R's???

I have seen some really good board members come and go. They get burned out trying to fight an uphill battle and that's what it is. When the Bad board members have the majority lock on the board, there is nothing an honest or ethical Board member can do except be voted down on every single motion before the board.

Yeah, welcome to my HOA... this is how the board operates. Yes, As JonD1 has said thousands of times, it is a long uphill battle. It took him years. It is taking us just as long or longer. We've gotten rid of two bad board members and have three to go...

Do I come here to talk trash? No. It just ends up that way because some people are in such denial that a board can be comprised of bad people... yet JonD1 and Melissa for examples, had these sorts of issues that they fought to overcome with their initial reasons for joining their respective boards.

Not sure if this website even existed when they were doing the fighting. If it did, I have to wonder if there were assholes on the board that treated them like others are being treated now?

Remember, the winners wright the history books.

And to every established gov't (or in this case an HOA Board) any freedom fighters are considered insurgents.

So, I take it as a supreme compliment when you accuse me of being on an anti HOA jihad. Shows what you are made of...

Remember you were all insurgents in your HOA's at one time or another.... fighting against the entrenched corruption.

HOA's are not bad, neither are Countries. It is the people running them that are "sometimes" bad.


JonD1


Posts:0


09/08/2013 9:58 PM  
Freddy:

Better take a few of those pink pills before you have a meltdown.

"Maintaining the developer's vision of the property?" Just what the hell are you talking about???? Our property was built in 1980's no one ever met the developer or was told their vision. And as they now our owners on the property and the developer plays no role here why would the Board be required to maintain the developer's vision? That's crazy talk....Or just the world according to Fred!

Sounds to me like you may have been bullied as a child. Lots of fear and anger against those who used authority over you. And YES when you see one good HOA and then always an equal amount of BAD HOAs your bias against HOAs is showing. When in fact you have no idea what the numbers might be or the ability to judge a good HOA from a BAD one.

And you HAVE made many false accusations and claims. Involving me! So don't now play the victim when called on it. You have twisted what I have said and made negative assumptions about what my history on my property is. When in fact like most things you have no clue.

I HAVE served on this Board since 1987.

On the 3 properties you have lived just when did you volunteer your time and for how long?

Yes, for the past 10 years I have served as Board President.

How about you? What positions have you held? And for how long? My guess none and never.

So basic math would tell you I have won election more than seven times.

But according to you I must have bullied my way on, rigged the election, used false ballots, or some. other method. Because you would know.

I have not bullied new members.

I have never said or acted as if I was above the rules.

And your OPINION that it is impossible for someone to serve long term without becoming a dictator is again ignorant AND absolute as if there could never be any exceptions to that Freddy Rule.

Just perhaps Freddy those serving long term might know their roles and jobs that much better than someone who never did the job. Like YOU!

No one ever said any governing documents state the behavior you claim took place was acceptable. The suggestion or question if they read them was to ask if the person had taken the time to understand the system of ownership they are under on their property. Rather simple for most folks to get!

I have never denied bad Boards exist. To do so would be idiotic. What I am sick of are folks like you, Mike, Amin and Frank coming to a site like this to whine, bitch and complain about how your properties are not up to your visions of what should be and in doing so you attack others who don't wish to wallow in a pool a depression like victims powerless against the system.

So your assertion we all here LIVE to defend each and every HOA and their Board's behavior is total BS or fantasy. I have no connection to your HOA what was done there is no reflection on me or anyone else here. So stop drawing or making comparisons as to what you have lived and what I have done! Makes you sound like an out of touch fool.

At first you claim not to be anti-HOA and then you take it as a compliment. Which is it or in your world can it be both???

I cleaned up my property Fred. There was no we. And yet you have felt you have the right or need to make accusations and flat out lies as to what I have done. Including how or why I joined this Board. About how I have remained on this Board. About my actions as a Board member. Based on as usual NOTHING.

That is just one of my many problems with you Fred.

In many cases you are nothing more than a windbag. Corrupted by what you see as abuse and misbehavior on the part of others and now you see it everywhere. Sounds a lot like Mike.

You have similar qualities to Mike, Amin, Frank and others in that you think you know but live unaware of just how little you do know.

When your take over is complete, and IF YOU ever hold a Board position then come back and explain the difference between talking about doing the job and actually doing the job day to day....

Talk is cheap and up to this point that is all you have had to offer.............



RichardP13


Posts:0


09/08/2013 10:18 PM  
Wow Jon

You seem to have a habit of putting everyone that comes on this site down. Others will try and help, but, time and time again you are just plain condescending to people. My guess, and just a guess, is that you treat the resident of your own community the same as the individuals that may have an opinion here.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


09/08/2013 11:16 PM  
Posted By FredO on 09/08/2013 1:05 PM
It's a well known fact that 85% of statistics are made up on the spot! :-)



I always thought it was closer to 98%.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
DaveD3
(Michigan)

Posts:796


09/09/2013 5:20 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 09/08/2013 11:16 PM
Posted By FredO on 09/08/2013 1:05 PM
It's a well known fact that 85% of statistics are made up on the spot! :-)



I always thought it was closer to 98%.



Seriously? If you're going to make up statistics, at least use the right number. It's 72.4% with a standard deviation of 3.6%

85 & 98... UGH....



FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


09/09/2013 6:31 AM  
I'll echo some of what others have said here about Board members who constantly put others down with their posts on this site. You make the case that there are numerous problems with rogue Boards out there who do not know how to behave in a respectful manner. No doubt you treat your constituents with the same contempt.

Folks like Tim have my total respect. He is always willing to help and does so professionally. He even admits to why he ran for his Board-there were problems.

So, please get the point. We HOA members will gladly acknowledge when someone is very helpful, like Tim. OTH, we are not whining when we point out when others need to move on, whether that be here or in our own HOAs.
RichardP13


Posts:0


09/09/2013 6:59 AM  
I will echo Frank's point. Tim has ALWAYS gone beyond the call of duty in helping anyone that has come onto this site looking for a glimmer of hope. It also show me how is fellow resident are treated in his community. Tim, you have my award for the year!!
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/09/2013 7:43 AM  
Ditto Frank and Richard. Tim is awesome and goes out of his way to help.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4220


09/09/2013 9:30 AM  
I just read an interesting op-ed piece from the Queens, NY Times Ledger on the upcoming mayoral election which noted that condo and co-op owners should vote for who will care for them. Some of what the author (Bob Friedrich) said can easily apply to HOAs. To wit:

“Having attended numerous candidate forums in the past few months, a reality check taken with a dose of truth serum is in order by the contenders, as they purport to solve many serious problems confronting our city.
But is that possible? The polls would have us believe that voters are tired of politics as usual and seek honest answers, but audience reactions at forums tells us something different. Obfuscation, feel-good rhetoric and governmental nannyism by candidates bring applause while the harsh reality of tight budgets and fiscal constraints bring derision, boos and hisses.
The candidates have learned that placebos sell and the panaceas and promises of sunny skies forever will yield bobble-headed agreement among audience members. Voters are just as complicit in this false storytelling, problem-solving narrative as the candidates themselves.”
The focus of co-op leaders has always been on creating a safe and affordable quality of life for families, seniors and children living in co-op buildings. Residential housing co-ops, especially those in the outerboroughs represent the largest swath of affordable housing in New York and the families living in them have a lot at stake in this election.
Co-op issues may not sound exciting nor capture the headlines, but they affect hundreds of thousands of people in our city. Co-ops have been under siege recently with exploding property taxes, double- and triple-digit valuation increases and an unending barrage of unfunded mandates that require co-op owners to dig deeper into their pockets at a time when the well has run dry.
Elected officials have the power to subjugate the decisions of co-op boards to the whims of legislative prerogative, which often may not be in your co-op or family’s best interest, which is why elections are important. “

If you’d like to read it yourself, here’s the link: http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2013/36/friedrich_all_2013_09_06_q.html

In the same way, ErinH1, you and many other homeowners learned the hard way that you DO have to think about what the homeowner association does or doesn’t do – it’s your money, after all. You brought into this association with the “crappy lake and golf course” and you knew it was a HOA community -no one forced you to buy your home. Homeowner associations aren’t some remote entity that exist to terrorize homeowners and make them pay for it – HOMEOWNERS, for better or worse, ARE the HOA and it will only be as good or as bad as they choose to make it. Forget the notion that living in a HOA is “carefree living” – that’s what a lot of developers and realtors claim, but as you can see from all the topics on this website, it’s anything but.

If you don’t like what the Board of Directors of your HOA is doing, remember, they didn’t fall out of the sky – they’re homeowners just like you. Some are very talented and have honest scruples, while the others…not so much. All of they got their positions either by running for the position and winning or being appointed by the current board. HOA board members are no different than the school board, city council or state legislature – if you don’t vote, they stay on. If you don’t pay attention to what they’re doing, you may soon find a big mess that you and the other homeowners will have to work together to clean up.

I do understand you may be frustrated, but you and the other homeowners will have to decide what your tipping point is and then work together to turn things around – no one else, including the government will do this for you. As others have told you, it won’t be easy and won’t happen overnight, but if you stick with it, change will come. Turning things around may mean that YOU will have to step up and volunteer to serve on the board – it’s not a social club, so you have to be willing to work. Not everyone will agree with the decisions you and the Board have to make, but that’s part of what leadership is about – having the guts to make the right decision, which won’t necessarily be the most popular one. What’s that t-shirt expression – if you don’t want to fly with the eagles, get the hell out of the sky!

Don’t like the golf course – find a way to make it more cost effective or turn it into something else (you’ll probably need a large percentage of homeowner approval to make that happen). Is the lake (large pond?) in bad shape? You’ll have to consult an expert to see what’s wrong with it and decide what you’re willing and able to do to make it viable. Could that area possibly be sold? You’ll need to consider the pros and cons, check your documents to see what you’ll need to do to sell it off and then all the homeowners need to make a decision as to what they’re willing to pay for.

We know many local governments now require HOAs in new communities because they become responsible for streets and sidewalks, and other things, thus saving the city or county money – and they still get to collect property taxes! It may be people are going to have to talk to their city council or county commission about changing that, but until then, if you live in a HOA community, you have no choice, but to get involved or at least start attending a few meetings to see what’s going on.
ValerieS2
(Michigan)

Posts:244


09/09/2013 11:39 AM  
I would like to add my high regard for Tim to the mix. Unlike others who feel they must chime in on every subject just to hear themselves talk, he offers unbiased assistance without insulting the inquirer. (No matter how tempting it may be).

Hats off to Tim!

JulianneW
(California)

Posts:25


09/09/2013 4:07 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 09/07/2013 8:57 PM
Julianne good try at an analogy but the HOA Board isn't like a corporate Board it is a corporate Board.




Yes, you're right, Glen.

I should have said it's like ANY OTHER corporate board.

Posted By FredO on 09/07/2013 6:35 PM
We are in the midst of replacing the long time serving board members. This is a slow process. Four down and three to go... Takes a long time due to staggered election process.

One thing that is common, seen from my experience living in three HOA's during my lifetime, is that the longer a person serves on the board, the more apt they are to become controlling and intrusive into people's lives. In other words the more dictator like they become.




And why do you think the same people are always on the board? Or why boards run unchecked?

I currently belong to 3 HOAs in California and 1 in Oregon. You see the same people on the board because nobody else volunteers to do it. You see boards run unchecked because the OTHER MEMBERS don't bother to educate themselves on what they should be expecting from their board, much less read the e-mails or letters or financial reports they get sent.

In my experience, the primary reason a board isn't run the way it should be is because nobody - including those elected to be on the board - knows what they're doing. Is it the management company's job to educate the board? Maybe. But if the HOA is self-managed, how do the members expect the board to meet the requirements of the law and even its own governing documents when nobody has taken the time to find out how things are supposed to be done.

If the board isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing, and/or doing things it shouldn't, maybe members should give the board members the benefit of a doubt and find out if it's due to ignorance before claiming evil intent. A long-time board member can be just as ignorant as a new board member. If you've done something wrong for a long period of time and nobody has ever told you it's wrong - you're going to keep doing it wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


09/09/2013 4:17 PM  
Why did we suddenly get better than other people and sitting on pedastools? What makes me a board member? VOTES! That is ALL! I am a homeowner just like everyone else. So yes, I am going to run my HOA that does benefit my home and those around me. It just does not make sense to me to put board members in another level than what they are. HOMEOWNERS.

I was elected because the majority of people who did NOT want to be involved decided that I would be best person for the job. That's my qualifications as a board member or officer. However, over time, education, and experience I've learned to make good decisions as a Board member for my HOA. Just like anyone else who gets elected on their boards. It's a learning experience and no one is perfect or fits all expectations. You do the best that YOU can do, NOT what others do.

I don't think "we" board members here are better than anyone else or are some kind of selfish people. They are just people who decided or was decided to run and operate their HOA. A task that is NOT easy. The few of us board members that do come and post here intentions are to educate what it is like to be on a board and why decisions are the way they are. Is your board going to do that? Most likely not. So don't knock the "free advice" when it's coming from a source that has been there and understands that....

Former HOA President
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/09/2013 4:44 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/09/2013 4:17 PM
Why did we suddenly get better than other people and sitting on pedastools?

div>


I don't usually correct people's grammar or misspellings because I do it myself but I can't resist this one. Melissa its pedestal. I've never heard of a pedastool.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


09/09/2013 7:35 PM  
If as alleged, HOA members do not know what is going on and they are not involved, how come there are so many documented disputes? Not just here, but nationwide. Are people starting fights with themselves? LOL! It takes 2 to have a disagreement, and not just two people but two different points of view. We do care but want to have our Boards do a fine job which includes listening to feedback and responding appropriately.

Just as you Board members get tired of being all lumped together, so do we members who volunteer untold hours, dig in and read our documents, come to sites like this to learn etc. just to be dumped on like our own HOA Board does to us.
KarenC15
(Florida)

Posts:118


09/09/2013 7:57 PM  
I do agree that lack of transparency is one of the biggest issues. When I pay, I expect board members to REPRESENT me and my interests to the greatest degree possible. My experience is that people go on the board to be in a position of AUTHORITY and have a mechanism to address their personal complaints against neighbors rather than represent members in maintaining the property. Thus, they generally don't want or appreciate democratic process because it interferes with their own perception of the job. In turn, I don't appreciate not being represented nor do others who pay.

The greater issue, in my opinion, is that board members do not really know what they are doing and why they are there and that leads to conflict. Some thing they are security guards, some think the money they manager is theirs, and others are just confused. Training is definitely lacking and the root problem.

Hatred is contagious, so one should work to avoid it.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


09/09/2013 8:16 PM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 09/09/2013 7:35 PM

If as alleged, HOA members do not know what is going on and they are not involved, how come there are so many documented disputes? Not just here, but nationwide. Are people starting fights with themselves? LOL!




From what I've seen in the papers, this site and from other sites, the main documented disputes are over enforcement issues.

From my experiences, there are many who simply take the "you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone" attitude.

Heck, I even did took that attitude (and it worked for over 10 years).
Looking back, I wish I hadn't taken that attitude as some things may have been addressed earlier (like not having a proper Reserve fund). However, it is also likely that had the Association not tried to enforce something on me that they weren't legally allowed to enforce, I would still be an apathetic member of the Association.


Posted By FrankS10 on 09/09/2013 7:35 PM

Just as you Board members get tired of being all lumped together, so do we members who volunteer untold hours, dig in and read our documents, come to sites like this to learn etc. just to be dumped on like our own HOA Board does to us.




I can certainly agree to that.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


09/09/2013 8:56 PM  
I do appreciate the kind words. Thank you.

I would also like to point out that when I first came to this site it was because of the varied opinions that I was able to better understand my governing documents. Heck, I remember (I tried but couldn't find the thread or I would have posted a link to it) one member, Glen, who told me a story about his job of muddying the waters when I complained that a thread was going off topic.

I also remember when Jon lit into me for questioning his opinion. However, it was he who also pointed out that I had asked for opinions and it was my choice to accept all, some or none of the opinions I receive. That if I didn't want varied opinions I shouldn't have come asking for them.

I remember when one member, I'm sorry but I forget the name, basically (at least how I remember it) called me an idiot for not understanding how things were done in Florida.

Rather than seeing these posts as an attack, I stepped back and tried to see the intent of the messages rather than the style of the posting. This is what I learned from those three instances:

Glen taught me it's ok to go off topic a little bit as it may provide a different perspective to the initial issue. Jon taught me that differing opinions have value and if you listen to the message vs. allowing the style and the tone of the messenger you may learn something helpful. The unknown member (and I really wish I could remember his name) taught me that laws change and even if I had a good understanding of the laws yesterday that I should verify that nothing has changed prior to offering advice.

The advice I've received from the members of this site has taught me a lot. It has helped me better understand what I didn't know and, at times, taught me that what I thought I knew, I really didn't know.

As Frank and others have pointed out (and I suppose our posts demonstrate), individuals don't like being stereotyped simply if they serve or haven't served. I believe that all of us agree with that.

I recall being told (prior to e-mail and forums) that it was best to always re-read and re-write a letter in the morning before mailing it. As I grew older, I learned that that was a simple way to teach people how to act vs. react to a situation. Unfortunately, today's electronic media often allows for a reaction to be posted instead of an action.

I suppose that what I am trying to say is that everyone has their own style when posting. I think that we can learn a lot from each other providing we can get through being defensive over the style of the messenger and simply try and look at the intent of the message. It only takes a minute or two longer.

FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/09/2013 10:20 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 09/09/2013 8:56 PM
I do appreciate the kind words. Thank you.


I also remember when Jon lit into me for questioning his opinion.





TimB4,

You are deserving of the kind words being directed your way.

However, the quote above seems to be the common denominator on this forum. Jon seems to light into anyone who has an opinion different than his.
Yet, opinions are just that, they don't change anything... or matter...

As others have said (Frank I believe): The attitude permeated by some posters on this board typifies the how many HOA members are treated in their own HOA.
Instead of doing something positive to counter the perception, some folks (Board members) just pile on.

While many issues can be avoided or solved by the member reading or re-reading their documents, the many members of this forum do not have to be condescending or ridicule or jump on the attack of the member.

I find it to be a double standard here on this forum: Some say it is up to the member to stand up and take an active part in their HOA. These visiting members are attacked and attacked for no good reason and they are in the very early stages of trying to determine how best to take part or figure out what exactly needs to change.

It starts when a member faces some injustice by their board or sees something that doesn't look or feel right. They start researching on the web. God knows that's easier than reading our documents... Sooner or later they trip onto this forum. They read a few posts, look for similar issues and then, maybe, decide to ask a rookie question.

Then WHAMO!!! the sharks come out...... every vile attitude and comment comes at them in this group attack that is so common here. Just plain Nastiness!

You folks on this forum say you are here to "help". Some do, some just attack. Does it really matter if you've seen or heard the same question a thousand times?
Yet, it is often the first time the HOA member has asked anything on this site.

If you are tired of repeating yourselves ( quite a few just like to hear themselves talk and be validated for their position by other like minded folks...) then why not create or cause to create a "FAQ" page where you can answer once and for all, the most common elements or issues that appear on this website. Then you can just direct the new poster to that FAQ and come back if it does not cover their specific issues in minute detail for them????

Why must you Board Members go on the attack?? A reasonable person can conclude that this is the way you deal with your general members. If that's the case, maybe it is time to take a break from your HOA Board for an election cycle. If you are that good and valuable, it stands to reason you'd be welcomed back after your "break"

So, one of the double standards here has to do with the fact that you un-paid, untrained "volunteers" make mistakes and shouldn't be held accountable for them. Yet, if a member makes a mistake it is "send the non-compliance letter, prepare the fines, prepare for battle and make sure you understand the foreclosure process... Some Board members see the D&O Insurance as carte blanche to try and do all sorts of things not allowed in the documents (it has been my personal observation on this aspect- in my HOA)

Never is it: "We have to enforce the rules as written. let's work together to see if there is a win-win solution to this issue"

Another double standard is that many of you did not get involved in your HOA "UNTIL" there was an issue that set you off. Then and only then did you get motivated to be an active part in your HOA. So why come down on the visitor to this site? When a HOA member comes to this forum and they're pissed about whatever the situation is (let's face, the issue has most likely been festering for months... maybe years. Then we get slammed with: it's your fault for not reading the documents! What have you done so far? What do you expect to change or prove?

These are all attack questions when a person is already under stress from the situation. Thank God for the few folks like TimB4, who is a calming influence and tries to set aside the emotion and offer solutions. Solutions that often times result in the member calming down and becoming rational and accepting of ideas.

If this forum is for you sharing your knowledge, then I challenge the few of you to actually do it. Others here are doing that. Stop the "War Wagon". or is this forum just a venting site for you since in most HOA's you probably have to hold your tongue when dealing with your neighbors. So a few of you use the safety of no one knowing you on the internet to vent your rage on the visitors to this site. Be they HOA members or members of their BoD.





FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/09/2013 10:56 PM  





>>And why do you think the same people are always on the board? Or why boards run unchecked?

Well, I can only speak for what goes on in my HOA- but it is a two fold reason:
1.) The long standing members of the board do a great job slinging mud at election time. They live in the past and claim any good that was done since they moved in was their personal doing.

2.) They have used the tools at hand, in writing non-compliances against anyone who would stand up to them. This makes people just want to be left alone. I have talked to many residents who don't like the majority of the current board and past boards for 8 years or more. These folks don't attend meetings and don't return the ballots as a silent protest. It means out of 200 homes, a bad board member can be re-elected with as little as 19 votes....

3.) Because of the virtual lock of votes by this majority, the few good residents who run for the board spend their entire time on the board being the minority vote and shut down in meetings. The gang of four determines (by votes) who the president and officers are. Funny how it always seems to be the same folks in the same positions year after year.

4.) The residents just want to be left alone and find it is not worth the effort to raise a stink about the corruption of the board when they by their election votes by approving variances for people that are outside the guidelines. (This is American Politics at its best)

>>You see the same people on the board because nobody else volunteers to do it.

I can speak for any other HOA but the one I live in has the four issues I spelled out above to deal with.


>>You see boards run unchecked because the OTHER MEMBERS don't bother to educate themselves on what they should be
>>expecting from their board, much less read the e-mails or letters or financial reports they get sent.

Yes, I agree there is a great deal of Apathy. But why? If the board is truly noble (with the best intentions and the best interests of the community foremost in their minds), they should be encouraging people to take an active role. Instead, the silence is deafening. In my HOA, the majority of the board thinks and says that they are the only ones who know what is good for the HOA and that the place can't run without them. So the board controls the appointments to the ACC, the elections committee, the grounds committee and the lake committee. Hmm... each house gets one vote but we often see both spouses, one on the board the other sitting on these committees for YEARS! Not out of lack of interest but because they never step down for the appointed positions. One spouse was on the ACC for over ten years. Funny this person (and her cohorts) tried to change the look and feel of all the homes by trying to force their personal esthetic on the rest of us.

>> In my experience, the primary reason a board isn't run the way it should be is because nobody - including those elected to be on the board -
>>knows what they're doing.

yep, and they turn to HOA lawyers for guidance. Funny thing there. Our HOA is over 30 years old, never did invasive property inspections. In 2006 a couple of board members attend a seminar hosted by this lawyer. He "advised" them to do Quarterly Inspections. How Ironic that with ours and the HOA's he represents, he is always busy with lawsuits because of these inspections. He must have taught them real well because it is generating a lot in legal fees for him.

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


09/09/2013 11:35 PM  
Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

If you are tired of repeating yourselves ( quite a few just like to hear themselves talk and be validated for their position by other like minded folks...) then why not create or cause to create a "FAQ" page where you can answer once and for all, the most common elements or issues that appear on this website. Then you can just direct the new poster to that FAQ and come back if it does not cover their specific issues in minute detail for them????




The reason not to do this is the same as the reason not to reactivate old threads. Laws change and what may have previously been good advice may be bad advice today.

Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

Why must you Board Members go on the attack??




Fred, I know that you didn't intend to include everyone who is currently sitting on their Board in that statement. Unfortunately, what is posted isn't always showing the posters intent (mind you I'm just using this as an example).

Everyone is human and as humans, we tend to get defensive when something that is said is perceived as untruth directed toward yourself. Lately, there have been a few (some may say a lot) of posts where if you served on a Board you were seen as corrupt, untruthful, engaged in criminal activities, etc. It is typical for these posts to occur but, from my perspective, they seem to be occurring more often than when I first joined this forum several years ago. Perhaps it's because the number of anti-hoa sites have diminished, so individuals are finding this site quicker than before. Perhaps this site has simply moved up in the rankings of internet searches.

The point is, we are all human and at some point will become defensive and react instead of act.


Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

So, one of the double standards here has to do with the fact that you un-paid, untrained "volunteers" make mistakes and shouldn't be held accountable for them. Yet, if a member makes a mistake it is "send the non-compliance letter, prepare the fines, prepare for battle and make sure you understand the foreclosure process...




Again, I expect that you are not including everyone who is currently serving on their board.

As I've posted in other threads, I've learned a long time ago that once you realize you made a mistake you should:

1) Admit it
2) Apologize for it
3) If possible, try to correct the consequences of the mistake
4) Take steps to not repeat the mistake

I've also posted that their are consequences for every decision. Some consequences are expected, some unexpected. The best the posters on this forum can do, as your statement eluded to, is try and make a poster aware of as many consequences as possible so when they make a decision it's an informed decision. Some posters see this as discouraging them from taking action.

Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

Never is it: "We have to enforce the rules as written. let's work together to see if there is a win-win solution to this issue"




Well sometimes it is.

Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

Another double standard is that many of you did not get involved in your HOA "UNTIL" there was an issue that set you off. Then and only then did you get motivated to be an active part in your HOA. So why come down on the visitor to this site? When a HOA member comes to this forum and they're pissed about whatever the situation is (let's face, the issue has most likely been festering for months... maybe years.




I agree that it would be helpful if some posting styles were different. However, in my opinion, I think that the different styles serve a purpose.

As we know, some posters do come here looking for assistance. Some posters come here looking for validation. Some posters come here initially looking for validation and then switch over to actually looking for assistance. Some posters want the answers handed to them (vs. looking up the information themselves). Some posters are looking for ways to use their Association to win a personality conflict. Some posters respond to logic. Some posters respond to empathy. Some posters need a swift kick to the head to understand the issue (according to my wife, I would fit that category ), tough love so to speak.

Where one person can be good at being logical another poster may be better at applying tough love. My point being that different styles work for different people. The flip side of the coin is that the differing styles may also place individuals on the defensive.



Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

Then we get slammed with: it's your fault for not reading the documents! What have you done so far? What do you expect to change or prove?

These are all attack questions when a person is already under stress from the situation.




I do understand how the way a question is asked can certainly place a person on the defensive. The three examples you provided are certainly valid on just about every posting. Allow me to explain so you may see my perspective on it.

As I've said on many threads, we can only offer opinions based on what the OP posted, our personal experiences, our training/education on the specific topic and any research that we may do about the issue. If any of these things change, then the advice can change.

Yes, pointing out that a violation is the posters fault is needed because if the poster understands this and approaches their Board with an admission that they now know they were in the wrong, that it wasn't their intent to be in violation and what can be done to correct the issue it is more likely that the posters Board members will listen. More flies with honey type of thing.

Yes, it's good to know what the poster has done so far. If they have already responded to the Board, knowing what was said would be helpful in giving advice.

Yes, knowing what the poster expects to happen, change or prove allows us, well me, to point out how realistic their expectations may or may not be.

Again, I do understand the style a question is asked can certainly place a person on the defensive. The questions do need to be asked and all of us may ask it differently. However, I do believe that the intent is to be helpful vs. being attacking. This is why I previously posted to try and look at the intend rather then the style.



Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:20 PM

Stop the "War Wagon"




Amen to that.
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/10/2013 12:55 AM  

Jon,

Thanks for the entertaining response.

>>Better take a few of those pink pills before you have a meltdown.

That's funny!

>>"Maintaining the developer's vision of the property?" Just what the hell are you talking about????
Hmm, see you are making baseless accusations now. You supposedly live in NY. Yep, my HOA was developed over 30 years ago. My next door neighbor was the Developers Project Manager for the development. He is an original signee of the governing documents. We also have about 20 folks out of 200 homes who are original owners. The Development definitely had a vision as to what the developer was selling. You could say, that the developer was selling a lifestyle or ideal of one. So, yes, when talking to these original owners of nearly 30 years, there is definitely a "vision" that was established in the sales documents and in the amenities provided to the community by the developer.

Maybe you just live in a typical clustered home neighborhood. Maybe you live in a tower condo building. I don't know and I don't care where you live. But you're the kettle calling the pot black in this dissection of my posting.


>>Our property was built in 1980's no one ever met the developer or was told their vision.
>>And as they now our owners on the property and the developer plays no role here why would the Board be required to maintain the developer's vision? >>That's crazy talk....Or just the world according to Fred!

Again, your attacks are humorous and show what you DON't know. So, in your HOA you don't have any original owners left? Does that mean that you chased them all out since you've been involved with running the HOA??? One really has to wonder about that given your attitude and social skills....

>>Sounds to me like you may have been bullied as a child.
Sorry to disappoint you. Nope, never started a fight in grade school, middle school or high school. But I sure did finish a bunch of them and was not bullied (i did what I've been doing all my life - helping others who are being picked on.)

>>Lots of fear and anger against those who used authority over you.
You mean you were never taught to question authority? That explains a great deal of your attitude towards anyone who dares question your opinions.... WOW!

>>And YES when you see one good HOA and then always an equal amount of BAD HOAs your bias against HOAs is showing.
Again, you are only doing selective reading and comprehension. HOA's are not bad.... it is the board members running them that can make it seem bad. Now, it all depends on each and every persons individual definition of what a bad Board member is.

>>When in fact you have no idea what the numbers might be
yep, it was a statement to illustrate a point. The nuance of which was lost on you. You're so hell bent on finding fault with anything I or a few others post that you and not seeing clearly and that shows your very real bias and closed minded attitude.

>>or the ability to judge a good HOA from a BAD one.
Since this is based on personal definition, I can say the same about you. With some national standards (such as IRS rules, and Generally accepted accounting standards, then State level laws, county requirements and building codes and then the many differing CC&R's, by-laws and rules that are created, I doubt anyone can come up with any all encompassing standard by which anyone can judge good HOA's from Bad ones. Again, your bias prevents you from having any clarity on the matter.

>>And you HAVE made many false accusations and claims. Involving me!
Really? Let's take a look. I claim that you are a keyboard commando - have I lied? I claim you have spent too long on your board and this has chided you? Am I lying? Based on your personal attacks on me and others it seems true or dam close to it.
I said you are some cyber stalker (well I did not originate this claim - your cyber pursuit of MikeR proved that claim out for us all. if I remember, a number of folks from this forum urged you to give it a rest.


>>So don't now play the victim when called on it.
I am not a victim of anything from a low life like you. I fu*k with you for the shear joy of watching you blow a gasket because you're the very epitome of a Bad Board Member (per my very personal opinion and observation)

>>You have twisted what I have said and made negative assumptions about what my history on my property is.
Like you haven't?? The kettle calling the pot black again...

>>When in fact like most things you have no clue.
Sorry to disappoint you, but you are such an angry person, you can't see anything but red when challenged. I have quite the clue- some things are just to get a rise out of you to show everyone your true colors and make my case for how much of an arrogant putz you are. You really don't have to be an asshole 24x7.

>>I HAVE served on this Board since 1987.
making my case for someone who has been on the board for way too long. Can they run without you? Or are you so valuable to the HOA that they can't manage it without you at the helm. Based on how you bully people on this site, it is easy to see why no one in your HOA would dare oppose you...

>>On the 3 properties you have lived just when did you volunteer your time and for how long?
Actually this is none of your business. So, I will leave it for you to create your baseless accusations about my service.... Let's see how big a man you really are??? can you walk away for this one point or are you going to make up some lies???


>>Yes, for the past 10 years I have served as Board President.
Why? I asked if anyone ever ran against you? I asked if you get 100% of the votes in every single election? You still have not answered this question? What's the problem? Why won't you tell us the facts? You demand this of others. Look what you did to Ought just a few weeks ago. You disrespected that poster making your baseless accusations. So, now when I ask a question of you, you don't answer this...

>>How about you? What positions have you held? And for how long? My guess none and never.
Again, this has nothing to do with anything. I could compare all sorts of other things and I know you'd come up short on all of them!!!

>>So basic math would tell you I have won election more than seven times.
>> Not without knowing the length of the terms.

>>But according to you I must have bullied my way on, rigged the election, used false ballots, or some. other method. Because you would know.
Nope, I never said anything about you rigging elections, using false ballots or some other method. I did however, say that based on my observations of you and your attitude and outright bullying towards general HOA members who come to ask advice on this forum, it seems you are a bully all of the time and definitely condescending. Whether that intimidates your constituents or not, only they can say.

>>I have not bullied new members.
New members of your HOA? or new members of this forum. You certainly have bullied new members of this forum. You have been called out on the carpet by more than one person on this board. Since the posting rules preclude us from knowing the name/location of your HOA this will have to remain unanswered.

>>I have never said or acted as if I was above the rules.
Again, since no one has access to seeing you in your HOA and we only have the persona you have put forth in your posts and attacks of others on this website to go by, that is up to everyone on this forum to decide for themselves based on their personal experience's.

>>And your OPINION that it is impossible for someone to serve long term without becoming a dictator is again ignorant
>>AND absolute as if there could never be any exceptions to that Freddy Rule.
Funny, because YOU are the prime example on this website. No one can have an opinion that differs from you without them getting attack. You bully everybody who states anything but your party line.

>>Just perhaps Freddy those serving long term might know their roles and jobs that much better than someone who never did the job. Like YOU!
Funny, again you are making baseless accusations. You do not know if I have served or not, or for how long or where. You're full of shit. Just remember the old adage: That absolute power corrupts absolutely. Yes, to you, you may think you are perfect but i am sure there are people in YOUR HOA that feel you are not doing the job to their idea of what it should be.

>>No one ever said any governing documents state the behavior you claim took place was acceptable.
>>The suggestion or question if they read them was to ask if the person had taken the time to understand
>>the system of ownership they are under on their property. Rather simple for most folks to get!

how nice of you to twist my words around to your meaning. You're a real class. I am so glad that your plans have you staying on the Eastern Seaboard for the rest of your life. This is one less asshole we have to support out here in California.

>>I have never denied bad Boards exist. To do so would be idiotic. What I am sick of are folks like you, Mike, Amin and Frank
>> coming to a site like this to whine, bitch and complain about how your properties are not up to your visions of what
>>should be and in doing so you attack others who don't wish to wallow in a pool a depression like victims powerless against the system.

Boy, are you too tightly wrapped or what?? the whole premise of this website os for people to come and get advice. So, to your few functioning brain cells, anyone describing their situation is Whining???? How many times have we had to hear about YOUR property NOT being up to YOUR standards and how you spent 14 years (really, that long...talk about not knowing anything) working to fix it. Now, that is whining to any normal person. It's old history... by your own account, it is at least 11 or more years old by now. What's the point in dredging that old news up?? Do you need it as some sort of self hero worship? Don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back there fella!

>>So your assertion we all here LIVE to defend each and every HOA and their Board's behavior is total BS or fantasy.
>>I have no connection to your HOA what was done there is no reflection on me or anyone else here.
>>So stop drawing or making comparisons as to what you have lived and what I have done!
>>Makes you sound like an out of touch fool.

but it's OKAy when you do it? How many times have you stated how long you have been president or on your HOA Board? How many times have you compared what you have "supposedly" done to any poster who comes here seeking advice. I hate hypocrites which means I hate you!

>>At first you claim not to be anti-HOA and then you take it as a compliment. Which is it or in your world can it be both???
That's right. I am not Anti HOA. But if you and any one else on this board thinks of me as a jihadist against HOA's, the source making that statement is giving a compliment. But you wouldn't understand this as it is well above your comprehension level.

>>I cleaned up my property Fred.
Does this mean you're a janitor too? Cause when I stated that you stated that you got involved because it was a badly run HOA... blah blah blah, you denied it. So which is it. Did you get involved from the very moment you moved in. or was there some issue that affected you in a way that motivated you to clean the place up. You have written about it in so many post - that is where I (and all of us) get the notion that you had a bad HOA and you fixed it(Cleaned it up if you want me to use the exact terms you used... sheesh). You are looking the fool now on top of your other short comings as a man.

>>There was no we.
See, there you go. really, there was no one else that helped? The people who you convinced to vote you in certainly had no part in helping. I guess their voting you in does not qualify... It is these types of utterance's you make that comes off as arrogance and sounding like an ass!

>>And yet you have felt you have the right or need to make accusations and flat out lies as to what I have done.
What accusations about what you did at your HOA to clean it up. You state above that it was ALL YOU and you alone.... What is it that you don't understand about what you wrote???

>>Including how or why I joined this Board.
I didn't make anything up about why or how you joined the board. I simply repeated what you yourself have written on this website (in other threads) about your reasons. You said there were problems and things weren't running right and the board had some bad members, bad MC and you got involved and it took 14 years to set it all right.... Did I miss anything? How is that making anything up??

>>About how I have remained on this Board.
Let's see, human nature being what it is. It is very likely you treat your HOA members with the same disrespect, bullying and condescending attitude that you display in your posts on this website. I am NOT the only person here who has pointed this out to you....

>>About my actions as a Board member. Based on as usual NOTHING.
NO, those statements were and are based on your actions of being a bully on this website to many many people who come here. When called out for it, you defend and justify your actions. never once have you gone so far over the line that social etiquette would require an apology. When you bully and insult women you become a "thing" of low character and totally lacking any integrity. It is easy to imagine this is how you treat everybody including your HOA members whom you seem to hold in particular contempt. maybe because they did not HELP you Fix your HOA ... don't know but you have posted nasty things about members of your HOA.

>>That is just one of my many problems with you Fred.

I really couldn't care less if you have problems with me. You're still nothing but an asshole and bully.

>>In many cases you are nothing more than a windbag.
yes, got me there. But then again look who's calling me a windbag. it's you, the king of all windbags!

>>Corrupted by what you see as abuse and misbehavior on the part of others and now you see it everywhere.
Just because I see it everywhere does not mean it isn't really there. It's called experience. And if you ever left the keyboard or mommy's basement you might just get some experiences to base some things on. BTW- I take offense to your characterization. i am not corrupted by the abuse I see everywhere. But I do try to do something about it.

>>Sounds a lot like Mike.
Yep, only you could stretch events to make that comparison. Truly are warped.

>>You have similar qualities to Mike, Amin, Frank and others in that you think you know but live unaware of just how little you do know.
Sorry to disappoint again. This statement shows your ignorance and arrogance are going into overdrive (as usual). You do not know me but feel free to make your baseless accusations.

>>When your take over is complete, and IF YOU ever hold a Board position then come back and explain the difference between talking
>>about doing the job and actually doing the job day to day....
Your awfully full of yourself there! Too bad it is all crap.

>>Talk is cheap and up to this point that is all you have had to offer.............
For the cowardly little bitch that you are, talk is all you have to offer. I don't ever recall even one of your posts offering any sound advice to any advice seeker on this forum. All I have seen is you being a bully and attacking everyone who comes seeking advice. Like I said you're nothing but an internet tough guy hiding behind the curtain of the internet sniping and attack at a distance. Why'd it take you 14 years to fix your HOA? Is that because that was how long it took you to snipe at the volunteers trying to do the job that you have decided you are the only person in the world qualified to do it.

Being on an HOA board may be the biggest and most important achievement a coward like you will ever do. You have a whopping budget of approximately $400,000 a year. Gee, my HOA has a budget of $544,000 per year. These numbers are nothing. I deal with more than these amounts on a daily basis on the job. There is a lot more important things in life than the BS we have to contend with from HOA's. When taken into perspective, if your house is your largest investment then you deserve it and all the BS that comes with it. I just think you are a pathetic loser who has anger management issues and was truly bullied all through life and now attempts to make up for your short comings by being a bully on an internet chat board.



JulianneW
(California)

Posts:25


09/10/2013 5:33 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 09/09/2013 7:35 PM
If as alleged, HOA members do not know what is going on and they are not involved, how come there are so many documented disputes? Not just here, but nationwide. Are people starting fights with themselves? LOL! It takes 2 to have a disagreement, and not just two people but two different points of view. We do care but want to have our Boards do a fine job which includes listening to feedback and responding appropriately.

Just as you Board members get tired of being all lumped together, so do we members who volunteer untold hours, dig in and read our documents, come to sites like this to learn etc. just to be dumped on like our own HOA Board does to us.




There are documented disputes because (a) members - and many board members - don't know the law and their own governing documents and (b) you can sue anybody for anything.

It doesn't take 2 people to have a dispute or a dispute - it only takes one person with an agenda or a complaint, which may or may not be valid. The other party is only defending itself in the dispute. People aren't starting fights with themselves; many times, what they're doing is starting a fight, many times without provocation. Threatening a lawsuit is a favorite pastime with some people because they know the defending party doesn't want the legal expense of defending it.

An "appropriate response" to you may not be an appropriate response to the majority of the members, or when held up against the governing documents and the law, yet when the board doesn't "respond appropriately," you may feel you're not being listened to, or your concerns and complaints are being dismissed out of hand. Everyone puts their own interests first, and many times members ignore the fact that the board has to consider EVERYONE's needs, not just the needs of one person, or a minority of people.

Do members have legitimate complaints? Absolutely. Are there boards that operate like fiefdoms? Yes. I'm not disputing that. But as someone who has served on an HOA board for the better part of 20 years, and participated in as many as 4 HOAs, my experience has been that the majority of the time the board has the best interest of the community in mind and they're just trying to walk the tightrope between the law, the governing documents, financial constraints, the demands of a minority of members, while juggling apathy by members and their own time constraints as volunteers who have lives outside the HOA.
JulianneW
(California)

Posts:25


09/10/2013 5:42 AM  
Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:56 PM


>>And why do you think the same people are always on the board? Or why boards run unchecked?

Well, I can only speak for what goes on in my HOA- but it is a two fold reason:
1.) The long standing members of the board do a great job slinging mud at election time. They live in the past and claim any good that was done since they moved in was their personal doing.

2.) They have used the tools at hand, in writing non-compliances against anyone who would stand up to them. This makes people just want to be left alone. I have talked to many residents who don't like the majority of the current board and past boards for 8 years or more. These folks don't attend meetings and don't return the ballots as a silent protest. It means out of 200 homes, a bad board member can be re-elected with as little as 19 votes....





Well, that's mature! I can tell from your posts that that's working out really well, too!

Are the non-compliance notices valid? In other words - leave us alone and we'll leave you alone in your non-compliance? Are people choosing to have board members they don't like in office in exchange for being able to be non-compliant? Or are they made up violations that should generate a protest from the member?

FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


09/10/2013 9:57 AM  
Julianne,

No one is claiming YOU or YOUR Board have behaved improperly. Yet you yourself admit there are bad Boards out there. I live in a community with one, IMO and many others. And most of us care and work hard to try and improve things. Please don't try and tell me what is up with my HOA, or what I should do to make it better.

I did not come here to talk about HOAs with members who don't care. They deserve what they get. I am not one of them. Thanks.
SharonH9


Posts:0


09/10/2013 11:38 AM  
Quote from Tim. "As I've posted in other threads, I've learned a long time ago that once you realize you made a mistake you should:

1) Admit it
2) Apologize for it
3) If possible, try to correct the consequences of the mistake
4) Take steps to not repeat the mistake"

Principles that I try to live by.

I agree with Tim that we all have different communication styles. I believe there are some cultural differences as well depending on the geographic area of the country you live in. I am a Midwest country girl. JonD1 lives in New York. I visited New York City once. Very interesting place and very very crowded. I noticed a distinct difference in communication styles. Here in the Midwest we tend to be more subdued and polite. New Yorkers just blurt it out. When I was walking down the street with my companions, a gentlemen came up behind us on a bicycle. He shouted, "Ladies get out of the way." This really startled me. If that were to happen in Iowa, an Iowan would probably say, "Ladies will you please step aside so I may get around you." They are probably thinking in their minds the same thing the New Yorker said though. Get the hell out of the way!

As Tim said, read what the poster's points are. I admit that this is sometimes very hard to do and I have responded in ways that I have regretted later. I really regret pointing out to JonD1 his picking apart and picking at others' posts because it started this back and forth banter that doesn't serve any useful purpose.

I think if we could all, (myself included) emulate some of Tim's behavior on this site, we will all gain useful knowledge that is often shared by others.
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/10/2013 12:22 PM  
Posted By JulianneW on 09/10/2013 5:42 AM
Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:56 PM


>>And why do you think the same people are always on the board? Or why boards run unchecked?

Well, I can only speak for what goes on in my HOA- but it is a two fold reason:
1.) The long standing members of the board do a great job slinging mud at election time. They live in the past and claim any good that was done since they moved in was their personal doing.

2.) They have used the tools at hand, in writing non-compliances against anyone who would stand up to them. This makes people just want to be left alone. I have talked to many residents who don't like the majority of the current board and past boards for 8 years or more. These folks don't attend meetings and don't return the ballots as a silent protest. It means out of 200 homes, a bad board member can be re-elected with as little as 19 votes....





Well, that's mature! I can tell from your posts that that's working out really well, too!

Are the non-compliance notices valid? In other words - leave us alone and we'll leave you alone in your non-compliance? Are people choosing to have board members they don't like in office in exchange for being able to be non-compliant? Or are they made up violations that should generate a protest from the member?




I agree that not voting or returning ballots is not mature. I don't like it and am working to change that particular behavior of the residents.

Regarding the Variances, well just like lawsuits you can create a non-compliance on just about anything based on a subjective interpretation of the CC&R's, rules and by-laws. When I mean, those board members use it as a tool, it is when they fabricate a non-compliance out of thin air. And then try to back it up with threats of fines or worse.

Nothing in our documents about bird feeders, yet if you place one in your front yard, you could end up with a non-compliance for putting up a structure without ACC approval (yes, seriously, this has happened for a humming bird feeder in the front yard hanging from a tree. You can't see it from the street until winter when the leaves drop. ). Not against the rules because the rules do not address it.

The non-compliances seem to be targeted at anyone who points out any misdeeds by the board. Whether they had an illegal meeting, or they voted on a motion that by all rights should have been the responsibility of the committee. Or, this one is great, whenever the controlling members of the board get word that an interested HOA member is planning or even thinking of running for a Board seat - that HOA member starts getting pounded with complaints against them. Like, you left the garbage can out too long or put it out too early, left your garage door open too long (really?? ) I can't find any time limits in our governing documents... But these things do happen by the controlling board members.

Leaves one asking why? So you fall back on wondering if the Board member is just a control freak, a whack job or trying to make up for having no control in his day job to the point they have to be a big fish in our little pond....??
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


09/10/2013 12:46 PM  
Posted By JulianneW on 09/10/2013 5:33 AM
Posted By FrankS10 on 09/09/2013 7:35 PM


Do members have legitimate complaints? Absolutely. Are there boards that operate like fiefdoms? Yes. I'm not disputing that. But as someone who has served on an HOA board for the better part of 20 years, and participated in as many as 4 HOAs, my experience has been that the majority of the time the board has the best interest of the community in mind and they're just trying to walk the tightrope between the law, the governing documents, financial constraints, the demands of a minority of members, while juggling apathy by members and their own time constraints as volunteers who have lives outside the HOA.




Julianne,

Overall a great statement. One other thing about the board - when they do not do what is in the best interest of the community - like trying to force their own personal esthetic on the community flying in the face of the governing documents.

We have a three person ACC (Architecture Control Committee). two of the three people on it had been on it for over ten years. Both of these persons were spouses of board members who had also been on the board for ten years or more. Our ACC "Guidelines" indicate you can have either gridded or non gridded windows. These two individuals preferred gridded windows as they think they look nicer. So, for the better part of ten years, they only approved window replacements that were gridded.

They forced their personal esthetic on many people who just folded because windows were a small part of their overall improvement. That and the neighborhood rumors that they were only going to approve gridded windows.

Tried to BS me with their supposed rule. Unknown to them, I had actually read (and understood) the ACC guidelines and pointed out that if they did not approve my complying (our rules allowed you to replace like with like) but Non Gridded windows I would be forced to appeal it to the board and then on up to the courts. When they discovered that the D&O insurance does not cover the ACC members, they quickly retreated and resigned at the next election.

With the rest of your comment, it really is not all that hard to be open and fair. I think the rules as written in our CC&R's are pretty straight forward and easy to follow. I think that when people start playing favorites or trying to use the rules in such a way as to punish or control people, that is where we get into trouble.

That's when we see our board running amuck and doing things not in the best interest of the community.
JonD1


Posts:0


09/10/2013 2:43 PM  
Fred:

My opinion you are nothing more than a windbag.

Oh, I should have said "I know you are a windbag". Being that's a fact.

Have you served on any Board in any capacity? That was the question.
Now it becomes a state secret. I will take that as a NO. BIG NO.

So what you think about how things should be is based on nothing more than your opinions means little to me.

And please stop making up YOUR facts about things you don't begin to have any understanding of. You have no clue what takes place on the property where I live but in typical Fred style you make assumptions and speculations about how and when things go which surprisingly support your views.

And then your group of like minded cheerleaders all follow suit. Cheering each other on as if that makes a difference.

Now you and others assume that my style of responding to you fools HAS TO BE (because Fred says so) similar to how I deal with people living here. Another speculation based on zippo. Seems to be the story of your life.

Yes, people like Mike, the long gone loud mouth who you thought just might know it all. Amin, the Bozo from Texas who like a broken record repeats over and over again the same questions as if he or she whichever it might be, belongs in a mental institution. And then we have Frank who was BORN with all he needs to know about HOAs. Divine intervention no doubt. If you bother to read my first few posts to all knowing Frank I suggested perhaps serving on a Board might require knowledge that the average perosn just might not have come across. Sounds fairly basic to me. Frank, in his infinite wisdom decided that simply was not the case.
Anyone who runs a household was Board material. And Frank with his clean driving record, his long term marriage, and his work as a manager in some capacity all proved to him beyond the shadow of any doubt he was cut out for being a Board member no doubt. Frank even suggested to qualify all candidates for Board positions should be able to quote, are you ready, wait for it.....three of the Ten Commandments! Now hows that for Board qualifications! Stunning.

So Fred folks like you, Amin, Frank, and Frank's hero Mike the fool, should expect some kickback when you come to this site which clearly states its intended purpose in the flyer at the top of the home page.
The words are short and the language is English. Just none of you seemed to have read and comprehended its stated purpose. Difficulty following instructions as a kid????

BUT...... that certainly does not stop your group from speaking as if you all KNOW. Mike gave legal advice. He has lost every case in ten years he brought against his HOA to date. He recommended a on-line law course that according to him gave him all the legal knowledge he needed.
He lost each case he brought for 10 years. But lets listen o him and remain silent while he rants and raves and makes false claims about every HOA Board member in America.

Amin, I won't bother. Pretty clear to me why he has issues. Pretty clear to me he is a ignorant fool.

Frank, the man of "principle" who will sit back and live in a place he is unhappy just to prove a point. Someone like you Fred who talks and talks and talks but has never done a damn thing. Frank knows it all except how to imrpove his own property. Frank has opinions about how things should be except how to get things done on his own property. Frank is an expert on everything including what is required of Board service while never having held the position. Frank talks out of his behind.

But folks like you and them should be welcomed with open arms and allowed to preach your version of reality. Including your all knowing comment about the state of HOAs in America. Cause Fred says so.

So in closing Fred this site is not intended for you and the like minded folks who group together with you as a place for you to come and bash HOAs and those who actually take the time and make the effort to serve their communities. Amin and Mike labled us thieves, liars and law breakers and you and the other simpletons pipe up about how you have been wronged in some pity party.

Let me be clear. I don't give a rat's behind about what Mike, Amin, Frank or you think. Mike is an idiot who you and Frank felt the need to protect. Amin should be working in the circus with the other clowns. And all you have Fred is opinions, false claims based on nothing, lies, BS and talk. All rolled into one in my book useless.

So go make up some more "truths" and "facts" according to Fred. And IF you don't like what I post that would fall into the file of to damn bad.

I don't like liars, I don't like phonies, I don't like mouths and I don't like frauds. SO I don't like YOU.

I hope none of this offended you Fred.............


GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


09/10/2013 3:22 PM  
Posted By FredO on 09/09/2013 10:56 PM
These folks don't attend meetings and don't return the ballots as a silent protest. It means out of 200 homes, a bad board member can be re-elected with as little as 19 votes....


Otherwise known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face" imagine the changes those 181 uncast votes could bring.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RichardP13


Posts:0


09/10/2013 3:47 PM  
Jon

As a property manager, I have managed over 40 different associations, big and small, condo, twonhomes and single family. You are what each and every homeowner dreads, a hard core bully.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


09/10/2013 5:16 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/10/2013 3:47 PM
Jon

As a property manager, I have managed over 40 different associations, big and small, condo, twonhomes and single family. You are what each and every homeowner dreads, a hard core bully.




Were you ever an owner in an association?

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


09/10/2013 5:34 PM  
You know Jon gets a bad rap. I admit we did not always see eye to eye but he earned his respect from me and others. He speaks his mind even if he is in it or out of it. :-)

Whatever you think about me I do not care as I am going to be me no matter what. Be it offends your moral value system because I chose to wear a bathing suit in a swimming pool and talk to owners face to face is not my problem It is yours. You put the face of being a HOA member as selfish, crooked, and imposible professional acting qualities. We are human and do the best we can so you do not have to.

Former HOA President
KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


09/10/2013 5:53 PM  
Jon,

The title of this thread is the "respectful perspective on why HOA Members revolt against HOAs." Some here on this board have called you out over some comments you have made and to tie this in with the thread, I would say it is opinions similar to yours held by board members that make members revolt.

You accuse Fred (and Frank, Amin, Mike, etc.) of being a know-nothing "windbag." It is this attitude that I have seen negatively affect HOAs in my area. Board members had this air of superiority that they knew best for the community. One meeting I attended the board railed against homeowners who didn't agree with them and then went on a rant about how they did this for the community and they did that for the community while everyone were lazy liars. They even completely disregarded the ruling of a judge - stating the judge did not know more then them - and told membership that county property was indeed the HOA's common property because they believed it to be.

I think it is this level of pre-judgement that exists within boards that makes things difficult for the neighborhoods in which they govern. They may not start out like that but over time groupthink begins to occur within the small group of active people in the HOA. This was an area I had been involved in when I studied project management in college. When boards avoid critical analysis, essentially attacking differing opinions and seeking concurrence, the benefits of group decision making are lost.

For instance, at another meeting I attended the board claimed that the mandatory assessment was only a matter of an annual payment of $100, and so no big deal. This amount was never written in stone, and in fact the amended and restated covenants and restrictions stated the board can determine what the assessment would be at any time for any amount with only a simple vote of the board. When a homeowner questioned the board's comments the president banged their gavel and told the homeowner they denied them the right to speak (mind you Florida law grants homeowners the right to speak in meetings). After this incident many other homeowners attacked the questioners for not wanting to pay $100. Critical analysis was effectively shut down and the operations of the board and their supporters got even more isolated and inward thinking. Had the board permitted the homeowner to speak, faults with the proposed governing documents could have been uncovered and future problems could have been prevented.
KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


09/10/2013 5:56 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/10/2013 5:34 PM
You know Jon gets a bad rap. I admit we did not always see eye to eye but he earned his respect from me and others. He speaks his mind even if he is in it or out of it. :-)

Whatever you think about me I do not care as I am going to be me no matter what. Be it offends your moral value system because I chose to wear a bathing suit in a swimming pool and talk to owners face to face is not my problem It is yours. You put the face of being a HOA member as selfish, crooked, and imposible professional acting qualities. We are human and do the best we can so you do not have to.



I think the issues I see being raised is that the way he speaks his mind. One can sspeak their mind and be respectful. One does not need to be insulting. I hhave read his posts and have found him to have very sound opinions but I think when he interjects with personal attacks the message is lost.
GnomeX
(Washington)

Posts:253


09/10/2013 6:13 PM  
Posted By KevinK7 on 09/10/2013 5:56 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/10/2013 5:34 PM
You know Jon gets a bad rap. I admit we did not always see eye to eye but he earned his respect from me and others. He speaks his mind even if he is in it or out of it. :-)

Whatever you think about me I do not care as I am going to be me no matter what. Be it offends your moral value system because I chose to wear a bathing suit in a swimming pool and talk to owners face to face is not my problem It is yours. You put the face of being a HOA member as selfish, crooked, and imposible professional acting qualities. We are human and do the best we can so you do not have to.



I think the issues I see being raised is that the way he speaks his mind. One can sspeak their mind and be respectful. One does not need to be insulting. I hhave read his posts and have found him to have very sound opinions but I think when he interjects with personal attacks the message is lost.




I have to say Jon is spot on concerning some of the people in question.

Some people simply don't deserve respect. Now everyone wants to brow beat Jon because he doesn't pander to people like FredO & Amin when they engage in personal attacks. He is just supposed to sit there and take it? I don't think so...

In fact, if someone like Amin or FredO came into a Board meeting or annual meeting spewing personal attacks like they do, any parliamentarian would cite them for doing so per Robert's Rules, call them into order, and if they continued their behavior they would be removed from the meeting.


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