Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Monday, October 18, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: How to Disband Your HOA
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 5 of 8 << < 12345678 > >>
Author Messages
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 2:26 AM  
I suppose that would depend on when the clock starts on the statute.
Is it when the fraud actually occurs or when it was discovered?
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 3:39 AM  
Well, I had some time and looked it up.

Per TX CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE, Sec. 16.004, the clock starts the day the fraud occurs.

From what Amin has posted, with the clock running down, if fraud is proven I can see one attorney arguing that the clock started when the initial claim was filed and the other attorney argue that the fraud hadn't occurred until the payment was made.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


08/30/2013 4:30 AM  
I have a question Tim or Glen... What is the process one does to prove fraud? Is it not that one reports it to the source that may be victim? For example: If this was a "FEMA" fraud case. Does not one call a special number for FEMA to report suspected fraud? We have had a few people here in the county after Katrina and even the F5 Tornado outbreak be found guilty. FEMA has their own fraud investigators and it usually takes a year or two before they can investigate and then prove it. They advertise the number and have it posted on their website.

I've also believe that insurance companies also have a similar system of reporting fraud. They don't typically ask one to bring them proof. The Insurance company can have access to the SAME documentation of any owner if they choose to investigate. They even have their own lawyers to do so to get the documents from the HOA. I've never heard of an insurance company tell someone to prove fraud to them before taking action. It has always been that one just has to report the suspicions to them and they have the ability and rights to do their own investigating.

Is it just me here who does not see that if you suspect fraud you have the actual victim of the crime have it investigated? I can't imagine an insurance company with a fraud department not doing something. I had a friend who worked as an Insurance fraud investigator. Insurance companies paid him as private investigator to prove false claims. That's why I know for a fact that insurance companies do indeed investigate and have their own fraud departments. One does not have to bring them proof as they have the ability to do it themselves...

Am I missing something here? Amin even stated several times that NO one was interested in investigating this claim but them? Even with proof in their hand and these documents they requested, where does it go from there??? The insurance company who has chosen NOT to investigate? The police? The DA's office? Will Amin have the right to take them to court as an individual? Just curious as I've taken criminology and business law and not seeing it...

Former HOA President
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 6:58 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 1:36 AM
Amin isn't interested in anything except stirring the pot. He's like a little kid jumping up & down and waving his arms, shouting: "Look at me, look at me."

BTW Amin if you are truly interested in proving the Board members committed fraud, you better shake a leg. Statute of Limitations for fraud in Texas is four years.

http://www.statuteoflimitations.net/texas_statute_of_limitations.htm



Like a board member reverting back to form. Just when I thought you were becoming sane, you hit the insanity button. It must be years of the usual stuff , like getting kickbacks and not being challenged has got you and other people here so unstable and neurotic.
If you think I have been sitting here waiting for utterly worthless advice that I get from here, you are wrong. As I have said a million times (it seems like that many times) , no, as soon as I got here and found out the only people that are jumping , not to advise me but to dissuade me are board members like you I started taking advise here with a grain of salt. I came here to get experience from people in similar situation, not a board member who probably will never be in a similar situation or if he was, wouldn't share his/her unpleasant experience with me.I have kept on gathering documents from the board which have been handed to me ever so reluctantly and I am well aware of the statue of limitations. BTW, I can assure you that I am not worried about 50 cents per copy either or method of copying like scanning. I already know how to copy them. Its the material itself that is not handed to me( seems like board members here live in the 90s)
From the start I knew you guys wouldn't direct me how to give HOAs a black eye, just bogus threads like "How to ( how you shouldn't ) disband your HOA". I am well aware of your pathetic games.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 7:07 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/30/2013 4:30 AM

I have a question Tim or Glen... What is the process one does to prove fraud?




I don't know. I would suspect you are right that it would be reported to the payer.

The issue that isn't clear to me is who does Amin think the fraud was committed against.

Was it committed against FEMA, meaning that the Association reported items as damaged that weren't damaged?
Was it committed against the Associations Insurance Company, meaning that the Association reported items as damaged that weren't damaged?
Was it committed against the Association, meaning individual members submitted to be reimbursed for work that wasn't done?

I think that we read the word fraud and suspect that it's against the insurance company. However, I'm starting to believe that Amin means it's fraud against the Association. If this is what he means, then it's more likely a misappropriation of funds or embezzlement rather than fraud.

Perhaps Amin can shed some light on it.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:08 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 4:45 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/28/2013 5:23 PM
Therefore, as I asked earlier, What do you suggest we do to accomplish this task [take down the HOA industry]?


I have also laid out my solution. There should be 100% transparency as these are non-profit corporations minus the names of people who are late on their dues. Everything else should be open and on the table. More importantly there should be an agency to oversee HOAs. A homeowner should have a venue to complain and that agency should have teeth to make these complaints meaningful.




Amin,

Allow me to rephrase the question.

What can you or I (or others) do to make sure that those things you mention happen?

Sure, we can agree that those things should be in place. But, to rephrase the question, what must (or can) be done by the regular homeowner to put those things in place if they are not already there?




If they are not in place, then the regular homeowner is at a disadvantage. They can go to their congressman and file complaint after complaint for a ll the things done by their HOAs and there are many infraction of the rules. I have said it before and will say it again, there must be an agency to take complaints and have teeth. If the complaints are many then they should be looked upon and take necessary action , like send the violators to prison if they have committed financial crimes, not like now which is getting them new cars and having them walking around with impunity.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:19 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 6:59 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

I am saying the way HOAs are setup, they CAN be breeding ground for corruption. I still believe that.




Amin,

You are absolutely correct.

The organizational methodology for Associations can indeed be a breeding ground for corruption. This is why it's imperative for members to become and remain active in the running of the Association. In my opinion, the minimum activity a member should do is:

1) Read and understand the governing documents
2) Read any newsletters published by the Association
3) Attend the annual meeting and ask questions to those things they don't understand
4) VOTE on anything the membership may vote on


The reason why it's imperative for the membership to become and remain active in the affairs of their Association is because of the way HOA's are set up. The current method requires the membership to serve as the checks and balances to the actions of their elected Board.

Let's be honest. The number of members who don't participate typically far outnumber the number of members who do participate. Using my own Association as an example, at our last annual meeting we had 17 lots represented in person. Those 17 carried an additional 27 proxies for a total of 44 or 33.8% of the membership. Some may say that those are great numbers. Others may say those are terrible. My point is, imagine what changes could be made within our Association if the other 66.2% of the membership decided to become involved. Heck, for my Association, that's enough to change the governing documents.

Sure the State corporation commission may fine for not filing the annual report on time. The IRS will certainly go after the Association for failing to file taxes. The District Attorney will prosecute if criminal laws are broken (example embezzlement). However if the Association doesn't comply with the Bylaws or a civil law, it's up to the membership to hold the Board accountable. The easiest way would be to recall the board or not reelect those same individuals. The more expensive option is to go through the court system.





Tim, this is what you don't understand or you might not have experienced. Elections are a sham by HOAs in most cases.There is this little dictator sitting there who calls all the shots and if anybody dares to challenge him they will call the Sheriff on him. It is dictatorship when people's biggest investment in many cases are involved and this is totally unacceptable. In our case they are conducted by the management company which has their hands in the pot too. Every year she comes with a bag full of proxies. When I asked to see the whole election meaning when they stuff envelopes with proxies, unopened all the way to receptacles and back, I was denied. You talk of elections as if they are out in the open. Who can I complain to which has teeth and can actually oversee the election or order that I be an observer? Please don't tell me AG because they would send my complaint right back to me.You can't even hold removal elections because again they come back with proxies that are unverified.This is real life on the ground, not some laws that you dig on the internet. These laws have no teeth. The only venue available is an expensive court system where only attorneys make money.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


08/30/2013 7:21 AM  
I think we are now interested in what happens when you do get your paperwork you requested and copies made. You have stated you have the ability to make copies and pay for them. You have a CPA ready to review the documents. You also are going to get a lawyer in addition. YOU again have the ability to go see the documents.

What are your plans once you have the documents, reviewed them with your CPA, and hired your lawyer? Isn't that your next step you should be on already? I am interested in what would be considered "Proof" of the fraud had taken place. What in the documents would provide that information? Would like to know what constitutes as fraud proof and how one goes and proves it once they do have all the documents in hand...

Former HOA President
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 7:22 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

If they are not in place, then the regular homeowner is at a disadvantage.




Depending on what you mean by they (transparency or a govt. agency) this can be a true statement.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

They can go to their congressman and file complaint after complaint for a ll the things done by their HOAs and there are many infraction of the rules. . . . If the complaints are many then they should be looked upon and take necessary action . . .




OK, so you want the homeowner to simply lobby their State representative to do something about the issue.

Adopting laws take forever. Wouldn't it be quicker if the member became involved, gathered support from others and then created transparency from within?


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

. . . like send the violators to prison if they have committed financial crimes,




If a board member has committed financial crimes, I agree that they should be prosecuted. Of course, this law is already on the books as embezzlement. Therefore, there is no need to create new law, just enforce the existing.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

. . .not like now which is getting them new cars and having them walking around with impunity.




Well, I would think that any thief who commits financial crimes would be doing this until they are caught.

Mind you, even if an additional agency (additional to the Police and DA's office) was created, they would still likely require someone to bring some sort of proof before they expend resources to further investigate. This proof typically comes from those who had the money stolen from them. For HOA/COA's this would be the members or someone on the Board.

AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:24 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/30/2013 4:30 AM
I have a question Tim or Glen... What is the process one does to prove fraud? Is it not that one reports it to the source that may be victim? For example: If this was a "FEMA" fraud case. Does not one call a special number for FEMA to report suspected fraud? We have had a few people here in the county after Katrina and even the F5 Tornado outbreak be found guilty. FEMA has their own fraud investigators and it usually takes a year or two before they can investigate and then prove it. They advertise the number and have it posted on their website.

I've also believe that insurance companies also have a similar system of reporting fraud. They don't typically ask one to bring them proof. The Insurance company can have access to the SAME documentation of any owner if they choose to investigate. They even have their own lawyers to do so to get the documents from the HOA. I've never heard of an insurance company tell someone to prove fraud to them before taking action. It has always been that one just has to report the suspicions to them and they have the ability and rights to do their own investigating.

Is it just me here who does not see that if you suspect fraud you have the actual victim of the crime have it investigated? I can't imagine an insurance company with a fraud department not doing something. I had a friend who worked as an Insurance fraud investigator. Insurance companies paid him as private investigator to prove false claims. That's why I know for a fact that insurance companies do indeed investigate and have their own fraud departments. One does not have to bring them proof as they have the ability to do it themselves...

Am I missing something here? Amin even stated several times that NO one was interested in investigating this claim but them? Even with proof in their hand and these documents they requested, where does it go from there??? The insurance company who has chosen NOT to investigate? The police? The DA's office? Will Amin have the right to take them to court as an individual? Just curious as I've taken criminology and business law and not seeing it...



Yes Amin has said many things, you just need to take your board member glasses off and read objectively. You need to go beyond your biased imagination and know that mid-level employees at insurance companies also can have their hands in the pot and don't want this to go any higher. Thats why they shut it down. The only way to get any traction is to take your case to the higher ups by hiring an attorney. DA needs a proof and I can't get a proof now because they have closed the books on me. Do you get it now? I know you don't . Nothing will make you understand until you take those glasses off.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:30 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:22 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

If they are not in place, then the regular homeowner is at a disadvantage.




Depending on what you mean by they (transparency or a govt. agency) this can be a true statement.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

They can go to their congressman and file complaint after complaint for a ll the things done by their HOAs and there are many infraction of the rules. . . . If the complaints are many then they should be looked upon and take necessary action . . .




OK, so you want the homeowner to simply lobby their State representative to do something about the issue.

Adopting laws take forever. Wouldn't it be quicker if the member became involved, gathered support from others and then created transparency from within?


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

. . . like send the violators to prison if they have committed financial crimes,




If a board member has committed financial crimes, I agree that they should be prosecuted. Of course, this law is already on the books as embezzlement. Therefore, there is no need to create new law, just enforce the existing.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:08 AM

. . .not like now which is getting them new cars and having them walking around with impunity.




Well, I would think that any thief who commits financial crimes would be doing this until they are caught.

Mind you, even if an additional agency (additional to the Police and DA's office) was created, they would still likely require someone to bring some sort of proof before they expend resources to further investigate. This proof typically comes from those who had the money stolen from them. For HOA/COA's this would be the members or someone on the Board.





Its unbelievable. Again you read and read and read and going circular on me. How do I investigate this if they close the books on me?
There is no need to create new laws? So how the current laws are helping when I have to get the proof before anything can happen? You just try to play with words and then try circular arguments.
Transparency from within? So I guess I have to depend on the goodness of the characters like the sheriff guy to open their books on me or work the elctions which I have written about and the wa they are conducted. Just continuing circular arguments.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:32 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/30/2013 7:21 AM
I think we are now interested in what happens when you do get your paperwork you requested and copies made. You have stated you have the ability to make copies and pay for them. You have a CPA ready to review the documents. You also are going to get a lawyer in addition. YOU again have the ability to go see the documents.

What are your plans once you have the documents, reviewed them with your CPA, and hired your lawyer? Isn't that your next step you should be on already? I am interested in what would be considered "Proof" of the fraud had taken place. What in the documents would provide that information? Would like to know what constitutes as fraud proof and how one goes and proves it once they do have all the documents in hand...



No I don't have to see the abilities you are talking about. As I said its like talking to the wall. Just go back banging your con buddy. Nothing will convince you.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:36 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 6:59 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

I am saying the way HOAs are setup, they CAN be breeding ground for corruption. I still believe that.




Amin,

You are absolutely correct.

The organizational methodology for Associations can indeed be a breeding ground for corruption. This is why it's imperative for members to become and remain active in the running of the Association. In my opinion, the minimum activity a member should do is:

1) Read and understand the governing documents
2) Read any newsletters published by the Association
3) Attend the annual meeting and ask questions to those things they don't understand
4) VOTE on anything the membership may vote on


The reason why it's imperative for the membership to become and remain active in the affairs of their Association is because of the way HOA's are set up. The current method requires the membership to serve as the checks and balances to the actions of their elected Board.

Let's be honest. The number of members who don't participate typically far outnumber the number of members who do participate. Using my own Association as an example, at our last annual meeting we had 17 lots represented in person. Those 17 carried an additional 27 proxies for a total of 44 or 33.8% of the membership. Some may say that those are great numbers. Others may say those are terrible. My point is, imagine what changes could be made within our Association if the other 66.2% of the membership decided to become involved. Heck, for my Association, that's enough to change the governing documents.

Sure the State corporation commission may fine for not filing the annual report on time. The IRS will certainly go after the Association for failing to file taxes. The District Attorney will prosecute if criminal laws are broken (example embezzlement). However if the Association doesn't comply with the Bylaws or a civil law, it's up to the membership to hold the Board accountable. The easiest way would be to recall the board or not reelect those same individuals. The more expensive option is to go through the court system.




No the minimum activity that a member should do after seeing these infractions and complaining won't help ,is to inform their congressman. They have to worry about getting re-elected and will do something to help the hapless homeowner who has no resources. You cannot work within an election system that this filled with corruption.These corrupt people won't give up HOA power voluntarily. The money is too good.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 7:43 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:19 AM

Tim, this is what you don't understand or you might not have experienced. Elections are a sham by HOAs in most cases.




I've experienced it.
I also took steps to correct it. It didn't happen overnight, in fact it took three years, but it did happen.

I corrected it by educating the membership that they can provide directed vs. general proxies. That they don't have to use the proxy form provided by the Board, they just have to put in writing who their proxy will be. I then went door to door and obtained almost as many proxies as the Board had.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:19 AM

You talk of elections as if they are out in the open. . . . This is real life on the ground, not some laws that you dig on the internet.




Well, for my Association (once I was able to make the changes), they are in the open.
We now use directed proxies instead of general proxies.
We now count the ballots in the meeting and any member who desires may observe.
We ask for volunteers from members to sit on the election committee and appoint anyone who steps forward.

I'm sorry your elections are not in the open.
Perhaps you can gather support as I did and make changes.
If the support isn't there, then at least you will know how the rest of the membership feels.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:19 AM

These laws have no teeth. The only venue available is an expensive court system where only attorneys make money.




Yep, civil laws only work if the parties involved are willing to comply with the terms of the law. If one party doesn't want to comply then, the way the government set it up, the parties involved go through the courts to force compliance.

This is the simple reality of the civil laws.

You can lobby the same legislature who adopted those laws and hope that they will change them OR you can gather support and make changes to your Association from within. There is no guarantee of achieving the changes with either one. However, I think it might be more likely that your neighbors, who are experiencing the same things you are, will be more likely to really listen to you than someone in the legislature.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:44 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 4:57 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

Why don't you answer these:

1. Do you have a problem with HOAs being totally transparent(minus that exception that I mentioned)?




No I don't have any problems with HOA's being totally transparent.
I've said this many times in other threads.
I've said many times that your Association should give these things to you.

I actually believed that my Association wasn't transparent enough. Therefore, I became involved and made it more transparent. Perhaps you can do that for your Association.

Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

2. Do you have a problem with an agency overseeing homeowner complaints and can act on it? It doesn't have to be a new one. It can be Attorney General of that state?




That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)?

As I said, the question is just too general for me to answer a yes or no. In principal I would say yes but the details may have me say no.




With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG. It could be a small office in Attorney General's office that has the power of enforcement and shutting down an HOA if they are in violation of rules and put people in prison should there are any financial crimes. I can assure you that office will grow astronomically with work because the way HOAs are setup right now, fraught with corruption. the reasons I have stated many times and you need to go back and check with their dealings with contractors and etc. If board members see real teeth, they will watch out and keep the books in order and make sure there are no infraction of the rules.
What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open? A homeowner will always have the option of going to courts if they are not satisfied with the complaint process. That is not excuse for not having an overseeing office.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 7:47 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:36 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 6:59 PM
In my opinion, the minimum activity a member should do is:

1) Read and understand the governing documents
2) Read any newsletters published by the Association
3) Attend the annual meeting and ask questions to those things they don't understand
4) VOTE on anything the membership may vote on





No the minimum activity that a member should do after seeing these infractions and complaining won't help ,is to inform their congressman.





I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:48 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 4:57 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

Why don't you answer these:

1. Do you have a problem with HOAs being totally transparent(minus that exception that I mentioned)?




No I don't have any problems with HOA's being totally transparent.
I've said this many times in other threads.
I've said many times that your Association should give these things to you.

I actually believed that my Association wasn't transparent enough. Therefore, I became involved and made it more transparent. Perhaps you can do that for your Association.

Posted By AminB on 08/29/2013 8:45 AM

2. Do you have a problem with an agency overseeing homeowner complaints and can act on it? It doesn't have to be a new one. It can be Attorney General of that state?




That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)?

As I said, the question is just too general for me to answer a yes or no. In principal I would say yes but the details may have me say no.




With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG. It could be a small office in Attorney General's office that has the power of enforcement and shutting down an HOA if they are in violation of rules and put people in prison should there are any financial crimes. I can assure you that office will grow astronomically with work because the way HOAs are setup right now, fraught with corruption. the reasons I have stated many times and you need to go back and check with their dealings with contractors and etc. If board members see real teeth, they will watch out and keep the books in order and make sure there are no infraction of the rules.
What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open? A homeowner will always have the option of going to courts if they are not satisfied with the complaint process. That is not excuse for not having an overseeing office.



Again another circular argument. Do you really not get it or not reading what I write. I said the election itself is fraud. they bring a bag of proxies and I can''t even inspect them and I was denied inspecting them. Did you not read what I wrote?
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 7:51 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:47 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:36 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/29/2013 6:59 PM
In my opinion, the minimum activity a member should do is:

1) Read and understand the governing documents
2) Read any newsletters published by the Association
3) Attend the annual meeting and ask questions to those things they don't understand
4) VOTE on anything the membership may vote on





No the minimum activity that a member should do after seeing these infractions and complaining won't help ,is to inform their congressman.





I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.



Great , they are breaking the rules and I go start reading. great idea, specially when reading the rules and pointing them out to them won't do diddly squat.
FYI, our Association does not publish any newsletter.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 7:59 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG.




I didn't comment about the AG because it wouldn't matter where the office was or who ran it. The question was simply too general for me to give a yes or no response without additional specifics.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open?




I never said I was.

Please cite what I had posted that gave you that impression. This way I can clarify my response and learn not to make that impression in the future.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

A homeowner will always have the option of going to courts if they are not satisfied with the complaint process. That is not excuse for not having an overseeing office.




Well, without seeing the specifics, I don't know if the member would have that option or not.
It's possible that the law which creates the office treats it as binding arbitration.

Binding arbitration typically removes the option of going before a jury if you disagree with the arbitrator. Additionally, the arbitrator isn't always required to follow the letter of the law or past precedence.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 8:08 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:48 AM
they bring a bag of proxies and I can''t even inspect them and I was denied inspecting them. Did you not read what I wrote?




I read what you wrote. Legally, from a layman's interpretation of TX law, you are allowed to see them. Typically after the election. However, you already know this and it gives you the same options posted earlier as your current records request.

I'm saying go knock on doors, educate the membership and get them to name you as their proxy instead of the Board. In other words, take the proxies away from the Board's control.

You can choose to take action yourself or you can choose to wait for someone else to take the action for you. The choice is yours.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 8:12 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG.




I didn't comment about the AG because it wouldn't matter where the office was or who ran it. The question was simply too general for me to give a yes or no response without additional specifics.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open?




I never said I was.

Please cite what I had posted that gave you that impression. This way I can clarify my response and learn not to make that impression in the future.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

A homeowner will always have the option of going to courts if they are not satisfied with the complaint process. That is not excuse for not having an overseeing office.




Well, without seeing the specifics, I don't know if the member would have that option or not.
It's possible that the law which creates the office treats it as binding arbitration.

Binding arbitration typically removes the option of going before a jury if you disagree with the arbitrator. Additionally, the arbitrator isn't always required to follow the letter of the law or past precedence.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.




This is the quote:

"That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)? "

If there was no bias, you wouldn't have any problems with people being able to check financials of their HOA where their biggest investment lies. You wouldn't have any problems with costs of such an office. There are s many wasteful government spending that when it comes to your house, no spending should be off the table. You wouldn't have any problems with your other venues being limited. That agency would be neutral enough to satisfy all parties. You should be with total openness when "non-profit organizations are involved. After all, there are no profits involved, are there?
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 8:18 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 8:08 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:48 AM
they bring a bag of proxies and I can''t even inspect them and I was denied inspecting them. Did you not read what I wrote?




I read what you wrote. Legally, from a layman's interpretation of TX law, you are allowed to see them. Typically after the election. However, you already know this and it gives you the same options posted earlier as your current records request.

I'm saying go knock on doors, educate the membership and get them to name you as their proxy instead of the Board. In other words, take the proxies away from the Board's control.

You can choose to take action yourself or you can choose to wait for someone else to take the action for you. The choice is yours.



as UI have said multiple times, legally and what goes on the ground are two different things. Whats in the book does not always translate to reality. They go doctor documents, submit phony claims ,steal elections and I go knock on the doors. Great idea. How about an agency that I can take my complaint to that has teeth instead of taking 8 or 10 trips around the block and let change happen gradually? In a few moths the neighborhood can change so much that I won't even have time to get to know the new neighbors.You are not for real result. You are just wishful thinking.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 8:53 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM
What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open?


I never said I was.

Please cite what I had posted that gave you that impression. This way I can clarify my response and learn not to make that impression in the future.




This is the quote:

"That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)? "

If there was no bias, you wouldn't have any problems with people being able to check financials of their HOA where their biggest investment lies. You wouldn't have any problems with costs of such an office. There are s many wasteful government spending that when it comes to your house, no spending should be off the table.




Boy you read a lot into an answer.

The section you cited was in response to the simple question of "2. Do you have a problem with an agency overseeing homeowner complaints and can act on it?"


Agreeing that Assocaitions should provide financials and be transparent has nothing to do with creating a whole new bureaucracy in addition to the courts.

You are right, the government does waste a lot of money. There are differing opinions on what is waste and what isn't waste. But the general consensus is that the government does waste a lot of money. Therefore, I don't really want the government to create additional expense until I know if it's a duplication of efforts, what authority that office will have, how will the expense for such things be paid for (as you said, if such an office is created there work will likely grow), etc. etc.

As I said in that same post, I believe Associations should be transparent.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM

That agency would be neutral enough to satisfy all parties.




You have a lot more faith in politicians than I do.

Most initial laws are written by outside groups that lobby politicians. Those same outside groups are part of the HOA industry you speak of. Therefore, if an office was created, wouldn't it be logical to expect that the HOA industry would be writing most of that law or, at the very least, do enough lobbying to make sure that the office had as little authority as possible?

I think it's logical to expect that. As I said, I don't like the HOA industry anymore than you do, therefore, I'm not going to blindly trust that a government agency would have my best interests in mind without knowing the specific details.





Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM
You should be with total openness when "non-profit organizations are involved. After all, there are no profits involved, are there?




I am in favor of total openness.
As I said, I chose to take action from within to make that occur in my Association instead of waiting for some politician to create some additional law or agency to do that for me.

Amin, it appears that we agree on the openness issue. I just don't have as much faith in the politicians and legislative process as you do. I have more faith in myself than State or National politics. This is why I chose the method I chose (to fix the issues from within).

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 8:56 AM  
Let me try and make this easier to read (I hope it works):


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM
What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open?


I never said I was.

Please cite what I had posted that gave you that impression. This way I can clarify my response and learn not to make that impression in the future.




This is the quote:

"That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)? "

If there was no bias, you wouldn't have any problems with people being able to check financials of their HOA where their biggest investment lies. You wouldn't have any problems with costs of such an office. There are s many wasteful government spending that when it comes to your house, no spending should be off the table.





Boy you read a lot into an answer.

The section you cited was in response to the simple question of "2. Do you have a problem with an agency overseeing homeowner complaints and can act on it?"


Agreeing that Assocaitions should provide financials and be transparent has nothing to do with creating a whole new bureaucracy in addition to the courts.

You are right, the government does waste a lot of money. There are differing opinions on what is waste and what isn't waste. But the general consensus is that the government does waste a lot of money. Therefore, I don't really want the government to create additional expense until I know if it's a duplication of efforts, what authority that office will have, how will the expense for such things be paid for (as you said, if such an office is created there work will likely grow), etc. etc.

As I said in that same post, I believe Associations should be transparent.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM

That agency would be neutral enough to satisfy all parties.






You have a lot more faith in politicians than I do.

Most initial laws are written by outside groups that lobby politicians. Those same outside groups are part of the HOA industry you speak of. Therefore, if an office was created, wouldn't it be logical to expect that the HOA industry would be writing most of that law or, at the very least, do enough lobbying to make sure that the office had as little authority as possible?

I think it's logical to expect that. As I said, I don't like the HOA industry anymore than you do, therefore, I'm not going to blindly trust that a government agency would have my best interests in mind without knowing the specific details.





Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM
You should be with total openness when "non-profit organizations are involved. After all, there are no profits involved, are there?






I am in favor of total openness.
As I said, I chose to take action from within to make that occur in my Association instead of waiting for some politician to create some additional law or agency to do that for me.

Amin, it appears that we agree on the openness issue. I just don't have as much faith in the politicians and legislative process as you do. I have more faith in myself than State or National politics. This is why I chose the method I chose (to fix the issues from within).

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 9:09 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

How about an agency that I can take my complaint to that has teeth instead of taking 8 or 10 trips around the block and let change happen gradually?




Well there is always the courts.

Even if there was an office that you desire, I think changing things from within would still be quicker.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

In a few moths the neighborhood can change so much that I won't even have time to get to know the new neighbors.




Well, you will just have to make the effort to go introduce yourself to the new neighbors.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

You are not for real result. You are just wishful thinking.




This is where you are wrong. I am for a real result and it's not just wishful thinking.
It can be done if your willing to put the time and energy into it.

There are many stories within this forum other than mine of making changes from within. As I said, it won't happen overnight. It might not even happen in a year (it took me three). However, if there is support for the changes from other members, and you are willing to do the work, it can happen.

All I can say is it worked for me. It may or may not work for you. However, if you never try you will never know.



AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 9:15 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 8:53 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM
What do you have against these "non-profit" corporations having "voluntary" members have their books open?


I never said I was.

Please cite what I had posted that gave you that impression. This way I can clarify my response and learn not to make that impression in the future.




This is the quote:

"That question is too general for me to answer.

I would need to know more specifics such as: how that office is to be ran? what will it cost? what authority will they have [what actions can they take]? will that authority prevent me, as a homeowner, from perusing other avenues? will there be an appeal process available over that agencies decision? what complaints may be filed (violations of the CC&Rs, violations of law, both)? "

If there was no bias, you wouldn't have any problems with people being able to check financials of their HOA where their biggest investment lies. You wouldn't have any problems with costs of such an office. There are s many wasteful government spending that when it comes to your house, no spending should be off the table.




Boy you read a lot into an answer.

The section you cited was in response to the simple question of "2. Do you have a problem with an agency overseeing homeowner complaints and can act on it?"


Agreeing that Assocaitions should provide financials and be transparent has nothing to do with creating a whole new bureaucracy in addition to the courts.

You are right, the government does waste a lot of money. There are differing opinions on what is waste and what isn't waste. But the general consensus is that the government does waste a lot of money. Therefore, I don't really want the government to create additional expense until I know if it's a duplication of efforts, what authority that office will have, how will the expense for such things be paid for (as you said, if such an office is created there work will likely grow), etc. etc.

As I said in that same post, I believe Associations should be transparent.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM

That agency would be neutral enough to satisfy all parties.




You have a lot more faith in politicians than I do.

Most initial laws are written by outside groups that lobby politicians. Those same outside groups are part of the HOA industry you speak of. Therefore, if an office was created, wouldn't it be logical to expect that the HOA industry would be writing most of that law or, at the very least, do enough lobbying to make sure that the office had as little authority as possible?

I think it's logical to expect that. As I said, I don't like the HOA industry anymore than you do, therefore, I'm not going to blindly trust that a government agency would have my best interests in mind without knowing the specific details.





Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:12 AM
You should be with total openness when "non-profit organizations are involved. After all, there are no profits involved, are there?




I am in favor of total openness.
As I said, I chose to take action from within to make that occur in my Association instead of waiting for some politician to create some additional law or agency to do that for me.

Amin, it appears that we agree on the openness issue. I just don't have as much faith in the politicians and legislative process as you do. I have more faith in myself than State or National politics. This is why I chose the method I chose (to fix the issues from within).




I read a lot into an answer??? This is your answer. How about agreeing that Hoas should provide financials but if they don't , what do I do?
I guess according to you start reading or knock on doors. No, there has to be an agency to oversee our biggest investment. The state issues marriage license, driving license , insurance license, etc. but when it comes to HOAs which is the biggest investment you start wondering about costs. With those licenses comes responsibilities that people can file complaint if the rules are violated. When it comes to HOAs you just don't want any accounting , and please don't tell me you are all for it.
If you were all for it you would have supported some sort of regulation , not giving the power to your guy with the local sheriff.

AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 9:28 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 9:09 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

How about an agency that I can take my complaint to that has teeth instead of taking 8 or 10 trips around the block and let change happen gradually?




Well there is always the courts.

Even if there was an office that you desire, I think changing things from within would still be quicker.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

In a few moths the neighborhood can change so much that I won't even have time to get to know the new neighbors.




Well, you will just have to make the effort to go introduce yourself to the new neighbors.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 8:18 AM

You are not for real result. You are just wishful thinking.




This is where you are wrong. I am for a real result and it's not just wishful thinking.
It can be done if your willing to put the time and energy into it.

There are many stories within this forum other than mine of making changes from within. As I said, it won't happen overnight. It might not even happen in a year (it took me three). However, if there is support for the changes from other members, and you are willing to do the work, it can happen.

All I can say is it worked for me. It may or may not work for you. However, if you never try you will never know.






So I guess its quicker to go around the ever-changing neighborhood, and just leave you guys alone and hope that one day they just happen to have a change of heart and don't start doctoring documents , or submit bogus insurance claims or get kickbacks. May be they'll have a change of heart and start opening their financials to me. Maybe they can even let me monitor the elections and stop the fraud in their election system. Sure Tim, change always better form within right? When HOAs are setup this way (and you have admitted that), they our wrought with corruption and the only way is outside interference. Otherwise we'll be at the mercy of a thug with a ,local sheriff. Don't stop going cheap on me when it comes to your biggest investment which is your house. I'd definitely think something is up then. After all, you probably never objected with state issuing insurance license to your insurance guy, or license to your contractor. When it comes to your house, you just clam up.
This is what I call wishful thinking.Its also called insincerity.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 9:47 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

How about agreeing that Hoas should provide financials but if they don't , what do I do?




I do agree.

If the Association doesn't want to allow you to physically come and inspect them, the options are the same as before which I'll drastically summarize.
1) Gather support and make changes from within (recall & replace or simply don't reelect)
2) Consult with an attorney for legal options (sometimes a simple letter will work, sometimes just filing legal action will get results, sometimes you have to go through the whole process of a trial).
3) Move
4) live with it

Oops I forgot your option, it's slower but still an option - 5) lobby the state legislature to create an agency to specifically handle complaints about HOA/COAs


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

I guess according to you start reading




Nope - you should have already read the governing documents prior to requesting the financials so you knew if the request needed to be worded properly and, at the very least, cite the applicable section of your governing documents that authorizes you to see the documents within your request (as this shows that you have done your homework).

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

or knock on doors.




It's an option.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

No, there has to be an agency to oversee our biggest investment.




Well, if your Association was in Virginia there is. However, your Association is in TX and currently Texas doesn't have such an agency. Therefore, the reality of your situation is that you currently only have those options already identified.

Rather than complaining that there should be this or there should be that, what is it that you plan to do about your current situation????


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

If you were all for it you would have supported some sort of regulation , not giving the power to your guy with the local sheriff.




Well, I'm for the one we have in Virginia (see earlier links) if that helps.
Of course, since State laws vary, this may not be the same setup in other States that have such an agency. Therefore, I may or may not be for a similar agency in another State. As I said it would depend on the specifics.


If you interpret that response to say that I'm against such all such agencies, we will simply have to agree to disagree as it appears I won't be able to change your opinion anymore than you will be able to change mine.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 9:58 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 9:47 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

How about agreeing that Hoas should provide financials but if they don't , what do I do?




I do agree.

If the Association doesn't want to allow you to physically come and inspect them, the options are the same as before which I'll drastically summarize.
1) Gather support and make changes from within (recall & replace or simply don't reelect)
2) Consult with an attorney for legal options (sometimes a simple letter will work, sometimes just filing legal action will get results, sometimes you have to go through the whole process of a trial).
3) Move
4) live with it

Oops I forgot your option, it's slower but still an option - 5) lobby the state legislature to create an agency to specifically handle complaints about HOA/COAs


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

I guess according to you start reading




Nope - you should have already read the governing documents prior to requesting the financials so you knew if the request needed to be worded properly and, at the very least, cite the applicable section of your governing documents that authorizes you to see the documents within your request (as this shows that you have done your homework).

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

or knock on doors.




It's an option.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

No, there has to be an agency to oversee our biggest investment.




Well, if your Association was in Virginia there is. However, your Association is in TX and currently Texas doesn't have such an agency. Therefore, the reality of your situation is that you currently only have those options already identified.

Rather than complaining that there should be this or there should be that, what is it that you plan to do about your current situation????


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:15 AM

If you were all for it you would have supported some sort of regulation , not giving the power to your guy with the local sheriff.




Well, I'm for the one we have in Virginia (see earlier links) if that helps.
Of course, since State laws vary, this may not be the same setup in other States that have such an agency. Therefore, I may or may not be for a similar agency in another State. As I said it would depend on the specifics.


If you interpret that response to say that I'm against such all such agencies, we will simply have to agree to disagree as it appears I won't be able to change your opinion anymore than you will be able to change mine.



What would happen in Virgina if an association doesn't turn the financials? I guess a slap on the wrist. Would they issue an injunction? Would an agency review the complaint? I would guess not. Probably people over there and elsewhere just go around reciting laws all day long. According to you, it is more powerful to recite laws than an agency issuing injunction. As noted I live in Texas and only Texas laws apply which there is none to help a homeowner. the advice should be compatible with Texas not Virginia which I believe its toothless too.
The only state that now issues licenses for HOA to my knowledge is Florida. Thats what needs to be done in all 50 states , just like issuing insurance , contractor , attorney etc. licenses. People should be held accountable to what they do and accountability is not just a slap on the wrist. It should be prison and fines so people will see real consequences of what they do , not scaring people by reciting laws which people who submit phony insurance claims and doctor documents have no respect for the laws prohibiting them.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 10:29 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

So I guess its quicker to go around the ever-changing neighborhood,




Yes, I do believe that it is quicker to change the Association from within than to have a State create a new agency with new powers where none had existed before.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

and just leave you guys alone




That is your choice. However, I do believe that the issue has been fully discussed and further discussion will simply be futile. The old adage of kicking a dead horse comes to mind.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

and hope that one day they just happen to have a change of heart




No. I'm saying make the effort and commit the time and energy needed to make the changes that appear to be needed within your Association. If you do nothing, than all you can do is hope that they change their mind or the legislature won't be influenced by the HOA industry if they actually create the agency you are looking for.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

Maybe they can even let me monitor the elections and stop the fraud in their election system.




Maybe. Providing that you're willing to be involved in the process and/or get yourself elected to the Board.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

Sure Tim, change always better form within right?




I think that they are.

I believe that it's better that changes are made from those who have to comply with them then those who don't even live or have a vested interest in your property.

If you don't, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

When HOAs are setup this way (and you have admitted that), they our wrought with corruption . . .




Not necessary. Yours might be. However, the Association down the road might not be.

I agreed that the way Associations are set up can lead to corruption if the checks and balances are not utilized. The members are the checks and balances. The checks is the verification if the Board is complying with the governing documents and applicable laws. The balances are what is done when violations are discovered.

From your posting, you appear willing to perform the checks but want someone else (a government agency) to do the balances. I'm saying that since this isn't currently an option for you to step up, gather support and toss the bums out. Perhaps, to make sure that compliance is met, even serving on the Board yourself.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

Don't stop going cheap on me when it comes to your biggest investment which is your house.




Amin, I believe that my house is protected by the very corruption you speak of.
I am certainly not going cheap. I am investing my time and energy by serving on the Board to make sure that there isn't corruption and transparency continues to happen. Personally, the time I spend fulfilling my HOA duties instead of spending time with my family is far far more valuable then paying some workers salary to do the job I'm currently doing.

Amin, please don't go cheap on me. Invest your time, energy along with your money to educate your membership and at least try to make changes now rather than waiting for some politician to make the changes for you later. As you posted, when it comes to your biggest investment, you should be willing to spend what it takes to protect it.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

After all, you probably never objected with state issuing insurance license to your insurance guy, or license to your contractor. When it comes to your house, you just clam up.




You are mistaken or forgot what I previously posted.

I didn't clam up. I took action. I attended every board meeting and published a newsletter to the members informing them of what happened and what violations were occurring. I knocked on every resident members door and spoke with those who were willing. I was able to gather enough support to make amendments to our governing documents. I offered my name as a nominee to the Board at every election (it took four years before I was elected, but it only took three years to make some of the changes I wanted). I volunteered to administer the Associations website and spent time digitizing every set of minutes the Association had so the members had free access to them if they desired. Once elected to the Board I was able to gather support and create policy resolutions to ensure some of the things that happened in the past wouldn't happen in the future. As a Director I am making sure that the Association was in compliance with all of the State laws.

Sorry, I didn't clam up. I took action and made the changes that were needed.
You may be able to do the same thing if your willing to try.
Even if you try and there isn't support at least you will have given it your best effort.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:28 AM

This is what I call wishful thinking.Its also called insincerity.




To me, I think making a single phone call or writing a single letter to your State legislator and waiting for some politician who has no real connection to where you live makes those changes for you is wishful thinking.

If you truly believe that this is the way to go then make the effort to go out and gather support from your voting district by collecting signatures to show your legislator that there are enough voters that want this change to occur. This way you will be taking action vs. just having wishful thinking.

As to what actions cause the perception of someone being considered insincere, we may disagree on. Therefore, I'll let my postings speak for themselves and allow others to make their draw their own conclusions.


TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 10:56 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

What would happen in Virgina if an association doesn't turn the financials?




I have never been through that so I don't know for sure.
Based on my understanding from reading the laws, which anyone may do by using the links provided in my earlier post within this thread, since providing access (which is not the same as providing copies) to inspect the financials are part of VA law, if a member makes a complaint to the CIC Ombudsman's office, the CIC Board will:

1) review the information provided by the member
2) Ask for specific information from the Association
3) Make a determination.

if the Board determines that the Association's decision, action or inaction is a violation of VA law, then they may institute a monetary penalty. Additionally, that determination can be used as additional documentation for either side to use in a legal case.

I would suspect that if the CIC Board (a division of the licensing bureau) said the Association was in violation that a competent Board of Directors (or at least enough of the Directors on the Board) would then bring themselves into compliance with the law rather than facing a likely losing legal action.

As I said, I don't know for sure and there haven't been any rulings from the CIC board yet to know for sure what they will or won't do for any violations.

Please use the links I provided and read for yourself what options are available to the CIC Board.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

According to you, it is more powerful to recite laws than an agency issuing injunction.




I don't believe I posted that. Allow me to clarify:

I believe that it's more powerful for members to become active within their Association and remove those who are making mistakes (as there may be more than the one that was caught) than for a court (or agency, if they have the authority,) to simply tell the Board to correct that one mistake.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

The only state that now issues licenses for HOA to my knowledge is Florida.




Can you provide documentation on that?

To my understanding FL, as well as other States, license property managers and management companies. The Association itself isn't required to obtain a license.

FL did pass a feel good law that requires newly elected/appointed board members to certify that they have read their governing documents. Is this the licensing you refer to?

Of course, signing a statement saying that you read them isn't an indication that you understood them or will remember them when making decisions.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

People should be held accountable to what they do and accountability is not just a slap on the wrist.




I agree. Currently, if the members get together, that consequence is losing their position and the authority to continue to do what they were doing.

If the issue is a criminal matter, than they should dealt with by the criminal justice system.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

It should be prison and fines so people will see real consequences of what they do, not scaring people by reciting laws which people who submit phony insurance claims and doctor documents have no respect for the laws prohibiting them.




Well, submitting phony insurance claims is a criminal act.
Changing documents to hide a criminal act is also a criminal act.

So for those two specific items, if your criminal justice system calls for jail time, that jail time it should be.



TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 11:47 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 10:56 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

What would happen in Virgina if an association doesn't turn the financials?


I have never been through that so I don't know for sure.
Please use the links I provided and read for yourself what options are available to the CIC Board.




I took some time and read the applicable laws and discovered that if an Association is found to be in violation that the CIC Board may do one or more of the following:

1) Issue a cease and desist order
2) institute proceedings in equity (start it's own law suite in the name of the State)
3) not more than $1,000 per violation

Additionally, if there is a MC or PM involved, since the Board does the licensing for them, I suspect that they can pull their license or impose other penalties against their license.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 12:28 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 10:56 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

What would happen in Virgina if an association doesn't turn the financials?




I have never been through that so I don't know for sure.
Based on my understanding from reading the laws, which anyone may do by using the links provided in my earlier post within this thread, since providing access (which is not the same as providing copies) to inspect the financials are part of VA law, if a member makes a complaint to the CIC Ombudsman's office, the CIC Board will:

1) review the information provided by the member
2) Ask for specific information from the Association
3) Make a determination.

if the Board determines that the Association's decision, action or inaction is a violation of VA law, then they may institute a monetary penalty. Additionally, that determination can be used as additional documentation for either side to use in a legal case.

I would suspect that if the CIC Board (a division of the licensing bureau) said the Association was in violation that a competent Board of Directors (or at least enough of the Directors on the Board) would then bring themselves into compliance with the law rather than facing a likely losing legal action.

As I said, I don't know for sure and there haven't been any rulings from the CIC board yet to know for sure what they will or won't do for any violations.

Please use the links I provided and read for yourself what options are available to the CIC Board.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

According to you, it is more powerful to recite laws than an agency issuing injunction.




I don't believe I posted that. Allow me to clarify:

I believe that it's more powerful for members to become active within their Association and remove those who are making mistakes (as there may be more than the one that was caught) than for a court (or agency, if they have the authority,) to simply tell the Board to correct that one mistake.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

The only state that now issues licenses for HOA to my knowledge is Florida.




Can you provide documentation on that?

To my understanding FL, as well as other States, license property managers and management companies. The Association itself isn't required to obtain a license.

FL did pass a feel good law that requires newly elected/appointed board members to certify that they have read their governing documents. Is this the licensing you refer to?

Of course, signing a statement saying that you read them isn't an indication that you understood them or will remember them when making decisions.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

People should be held accountable to what they do and accountability is not just a slap on the wrist.




I agree. Currently, if the members get together, that consequence is losing their position and the authority to continue to do what they were doing.

If the issue is a criminal matter, than they should dealt with by the criminal justice system.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

It should be prison and fines so people will see real consequences of what they do, not scaring people by reciting laws which people who submit phony insurance claims and doctor documents have no respect for the laws prohibiting them.




Well, submitting phony insurance claims is a criminal act.
Changing documents to hide a criminal act is also a criminal act.

So for those two specific items, if your criminal justice system calls for jail time, that jail time it should be.






Tim, you have to understand that first I don't live in Virginia. I don't live in Florida either. The situation here in Texas is that I have a suspicion with my HOA and want to proceed with finding out if and how they did wrong. Working within takes a lot of time and it might only help prevent this from ever happening. This is why its wishful thinking. It may or may not. If it does help , it might revert back in a few years or even months. The situation is urgent. I am running out of time to act. Thats why I am here to find out people in similar situation who would share their experience that could be helpful. This is now. It needs more than reciting laws and knocking on doors. It needs quick action.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 12:30 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 10:56 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

What would happen in Virgina if an association doesn't turn the financials?




I have never been through that so I don't know for sure.
Based on my understanding from reading the laws, which anyone may do by using the links provided in my earlier post within this thread, since providing access (which is not the same as providing copies) to inspect the financials are part of VA law, if a member makes a complaint to the CIC Ombudsman's office, the CIC Board will:

1) review the information provided by the member
2) Ask for specific information from the Association
3) Make a determination.

if the Board determines that the Association's decision, action or inaction is a violation of VA law, then they may institute a monetary penalty. Additionally, that determination can be used as additional documentation for either side to use in a legal case.

I would suspect that if the CIC Board (a division of the licensing bureau) said the Association was in violation that a competent Board of Directors (or at least enough of the Directors on the Board) would then bring themselves into compliance with the law rather than facing a likely losing legal action.

As I said, I don't know for sure and there haven't been any rulings from the CIC board yet to know for sure what they will or won't do for any violations.

Please use the links I provided and read for yourself what options are available to the CIC Board.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

According to you, it is more powerful to recite laws than an agency issuing injunction.




I don't believe I posted that. Allow me to clarify:

I believe that it's more powerful for members to become active within their Association and remove those who are making mistakes (as there may be more than the one that was caught) than for a court (or agency, if they have the authority,) to simply tell the Board to correct that one mistake.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

The only state that now issues licenses for HOA to my knowledge is Florida.




Can you provide documentation on that?

To my understanding FL, as well as other States, license property managers and management companies. The Association itself isn't required to obtain a license.

FL did pass a feel good law that requires newly elected/appointed board members to certify that they have read their governing documents. Is this the licensing you refer to?

Of course, signing a statement saying that you read them isn't an indication that you understood them or will remember them when making decisions.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

People should be held accountable to what they do and accountability is not just a slap on the wrist.




I agree. Currently, if the members get together, that consequence is losing their position and the authority to continue to do what they were doing.

If the issue is a criminal matter, than they should dealt with by the criminal justice system.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 9:58 AM

It should be prison and fines so people will see real consequences of what they do, not scaring people by reciting laws which people who submit phony insurance claims and doctor documents have no respect for the laws prohibiting them.




Well, submitting phony insurance claims is a criminal act.
Changing documents to hide a criminal act is also a criminal act.

So for those two specific items, if your criminal justice system calls for jail time, that jail time it should be.








"Well, submitting phony insurance claims is a criminal act.
Changing documents to hide a criminal act is also a criminal act.

So for those two specific items, if your criminal justice system calls for jail time, that jail time it should be. "

How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?



TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 1:14 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

Tim, you have to understand that first I don't live in Virginia.




I understand that. You were asking about VA and made a statement about FL in your last posting. I was just responding to those specific questions and comments.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

The situation here in Texas is that I have a suspicion with my HOA and want to proceed with finding out if and how they did wrong.




I understand.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

Working within takes a lot of time and it might only help prevent this from ever happening. This is why its wishful thinking.




Well, everyone does have different amount of time they can actually commit to using on any one issue. Therefore, I can see that from your perspective it can be seen as wishful thinking and from another perspective it is seen as something else.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

It may or may not. If it does help , it might revert back in a few years or even months.




Always a possibility. This is one of the reasons I continue to serve (to try and prevent it from reverting back).

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

The situation is urgent. I am running out of time to act. Thats why I am here to find out people in similar situation who would share their experience that could be helpful. This is now. It needs more than reciting laws and knocking on doors. It needs quick action.




Well it appears (based on my summary of your issue posted earlier) of those willing or able to offer actual advice, that the advice is basically the same.

Since time is of an issue, I would suggest the following:

1) Take your Association up on their offer to go and view what documents they say you can view. It may provide the answers you are looking for or it might not. It most definitely will remove the Associations defense that they offered and you didn't take them up on the offer.

Again, if you don't have the time to go yourself or have concerns going alone, take someone with you or send someone to act as your agent. You mentioned that your willing to bear the expense of a forensic audit, so consider this an expense and pay for the accountant to go on your behalf. This will also save time as the accountant can ask for documents directly without the need to go through you which can cause time to be eaten up.

2) Simultaneously consult with an attorney to see what legal options are available and what, if anything, can be done to stop the clock from counting down.


Hopefully this helps,

Tim
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 1:20 PM  
How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?
You posted that they would let you see the books but you were afraid they would give you the stink eye. Which is it will they let you inspect or have they closed the books?

Even if the government oversight you want would suddenly materialize tomorrow, you do realize it would take more than: "I think." or "I know." It would actually take some minimal proof of wrong doing before the agency could act. And since every HOA has an individual like you who thinks everyone is out to cheat them or that the Board is committing some type of election fraud since they were unsuccessful in their attempt to get on the Board.

Better to keep gnashing your teeth and wringing your hands, knowing what you "know" than to actually do something that might prove you are in error.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 1:22 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:30 PM

"Well, submitting phony insurance claims is a criminal act.
Changing documents to hide a criminal act is also a criminal act.

So for those two specific items, if your criminal justice system calls for jail time, that jail time it should be. "

How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?




Based on current laws and the fact, per your last post, time to get the information is short, it appears that you need to file a legal action requesting that they give you access first. This takes time but it may or may not stop the clock for the fraud issue. Consult with a local attorney to be sure.

Then once you have access, take what you discover that will support your suspicion of criminal activity to the DA or the local police and see if they agree or not.

Now, if time wasn't an issue - I would still recommend that you work from within so the underlying issue (those individuals who don't want to comply with the law are still serving on the board) is addressed and you gather support and toss the bums out.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 1:53 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 1:14 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

Tim, you have to understand that first I don't live in Virginia.




I understand that. You were asking about VA and made a statement about FL in your last posting. I was just responding to those specific questions and comments.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

The situation here in Texas is that I have a suspicion with my HOA and want to proceed with finding out if and how they did wrong.




I understand.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

Working within takes a lot of time and it might only help prevent this from ever happening. This is why its wishful thinking.




Well, everyone does have different amount of time they can actually commit to using on any one issue. Therefore, I can see that from your perspective it can be seen as wishful thinking and from another perspective it is seen as something else.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

It may or may not. If it does help , it might revert back in a few years or even months.




Always a possibility. This is one of the reasons I continue to serve (to try and prevent it from reverting back).

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 12:28 PM

The situation is urgent. I am running out of time to act. Thats why I am here to find out people in similar situation who would share their experience that could be helpful. This is now. It needs more than reciting laws and knocking on doors. It needs quick action.




Well it appears (based on my summary of your issue posted earlier) of those willing or able to offer actual advice, that the advice is basically the same.

Since time is of an issue, I would suggest the following:

1) Take your Association up on their offer to go and view what documents they say you can view. It may provide the answers you are looking for or it might not. It most definitely will remove the Associations defense that they offered and you didn't take them up on the offer.

Again, if you don't have the time to go yourself or have concerns going alone, take someone with you or send someone to act as your agent. You mentioned that your willing to bear the expense of a forensic audit, so consider this an expense and pay for the accountant to go on your behalf. This will also save time as the accountant can ask for documents directly without the need to go through you which can cause time to be eaten up.

2) Simultaneously consult with an attorney to see what legal options are available and what, if anything, can be done to stop the clock from counting down.


Hopefully this helps,

Tim





No it doesn't. I have said that many times and you have read it many times and still can't comprehend. I only mentioned FL and VA, to tell you I don't live there. All these steps I have already taken steps like talking to attorneys and etc. Don't read what I write and you just concentrate on what you write? I've already got a CPA lined up too. I have said it (I believe its now probably close to hundred times) that I am here to get advice from homeowners and hopefully some honest board members who have been in similar situations. I have also mentioned why it would be a waste of time since I don't believ they would leave incriminating evidence after my experience with the insurance docs ( I will not repeat it anymore, just refer to previous posts).

And yes, as you said the situation may or may not revert back to the same old good old boys and gals. So the best effective thing , that this doesn't revert if we get good board members, is to have an agency that would oversee that and make sure that the violators be punished and not just slapped on the wrist.

I ask again: What is wrong with an office inside the AG office or another agency to monitor an HOA?
Remember we already have license for insurance, attorney and more which probably just passed you by without objecting to costs.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/30/2013 1:55 PM  
Amin,

Yes you are odd in your behavior. Read slowly again;

I HAVE NEVER BEEN A BOARD MEMBER.

Why is it that you feel you are entitled to accuse everyone of fraud and deceit, but by God if they laugh at you it must be do to you being what exactly? Typical non-sense, but I sure respect Tim's willingness to try. Amin would rather play victim than do anything about his situation.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 1:59 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 1:20 PM
How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?
You posted that they would let you see the books but you were afraid they would give you the stink eye. Which is it will they let you inspect or have they closed the books?

Even if the government oversight you want would suddenly materialize tomorrow, you do realize it would take more than: "I think." or "I know." It would actually take some minimal proof of wrong doing before the agency could act. And since every HOA has an individual like you who thinks everyone is out to cheat them or that the Board is committing some type of election fraud since they were unsuccessful in their attempt to get on the Board.

Better to keep gnashing your teeth and wringing your hands, knowing what you "know" than to actually do something that might prove you are in error.




It must be something in the water you're drinking that makes you not retain things. I have said many times why I won't do it and won't go over that anymore.Refer to my previous postings.
I've already said many times that this is a suspicion and not accusation and you still can't differentiate.
I suggest you talk to your water company to see what they put in there that makes you so circularly confused. If that didn't work try to see a memory specialist to see why you're having so many problems with your memory.

I really think my efforts to give a brethren HOA a black eye is what has got you scared and nervous. You see your future.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 2:07 PM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 08/30/2013 1:55 PM
Amin,

Yes you are odd in your behavior. Read slowly again;

I HAVE NEVER BEEN A BOARD MEMBER.

Why is it that you feel you are entitled to accuse everyone of fraud and deceit, but by God if they laugh at you it must be do to you being what exactly? Typical non-sense, but I sure respect Tim's willingness to try. Amin would rather play victim than do anything about his situation.




Read slowly you racist : Board members never go away. They don't even fade away. They hang around and share the proceeds , by introducing new contractors, insurance people, etc.

Now answer this : Where did you post a similar posting mentioning NSA,water-boarding, and terrorist with a member which has a non-foreign sounding name? Direct me there. You keep dodging the question.

While you're at it check the dictionary and find the difference between suspicion and accusation.
But most of all , don't forget the question again.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 2:18 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

No it doesn't. I have said that many times and you have read it many times and still can't comprehend. I only mentioned FL and VA, to tell you I don't live there.




That is incorrect. You specifically asked what would happen in if an Association in VA didn't provide this information.

You also said that you believed FL was the only State to license HOAs. Since I hadn't heard or read that, I basically asked for clarification while trying to explain what I was aware of.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

All these steps I have already taken steps like talking to attorneys and etc.




GREAT. I guess the only things left is for you to physically go and check examine the records and/or take one of your attorney's options.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

Don't read what I write and you just concentrate on what you write?




I'm not.

I'm sorry that the advice offered isn't what you consider useful.
Your the one who stated that time is running out and you need to take action with what can be done now vs. taking action that may take years to accomplish.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I have said it (I believe its now probably close to hundred times) that I am here to get advice from homeowners and hopefully some honest board members who have been in similar situations.






OK - you know those options. The choice is yours as to how you want to proceed.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I have also mentioned why it would be a waste of time since I don't believ they would leave incriminating evidence after my experience with the insurance docs ( I will not repeat it anymore, just refer to previous posts).




I understand that you think it's a waste of time to physically go and inspect the records so you are not going to do it.

In my opinion, that is a mistake. It is a mistake for two reasons:

1) By offering you to come and inspect they are in compliance with the law as written. Therefore, you will likely be unable to win a legal action requesting the documents if you haven't proved that the documents aren't there by taking them up on that offer.

2) What if the paperwork is there (perhaps they forgot to pull it)? It may be the proof you seek but you have already determined, without looking, that the proof won't be there so why bother.

Those are the best logical reasons I can provide you for possibly wasting a few hours to look at the records.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

And yes, as you said the situation may or may not revert back to the same old good old boys and gals. So the best effective thing , that this doesn't revert if we get good board members, is to have an agency that would oversee that and make sure that the violators be punished and not just slapped on the wrist




Well you read my posts on that topic.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I ask again: What is wrong with an office inside the AG office or another agency to monitor an HOA?




I'm tired of re-posting the same answer over and over.
Just refer to previous posts as to the reasons why I need actual specifics before answering such a question.

AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 2:34 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 2:18 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

No it doesn't. I have said that many times and you have read it many times and still can't comprehend. I only mentioned FL and VA, to tell you I don't live there.




That is incorrect. You specifically asked what would happen in if an Association in VA didn't provide this information.

You also said that you believed FL was the only State to license HOAs. Since I hadn't heard or read that, I basically asked for clarification while trying to explain what I was aware of.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

All these steps I have already taken steps like talking to attorneys and etc.




GREAT. I guess the only things left is for you to physically go and check examine the records and/or take one of your attorney's options.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

Don't read what I write and you just concentrate on what you write?




I'm not.

I'm sorry that the advice offered isn't what you consider useful.
Your the one who stated that time is running out and you need to take action with what can be done now vs. taking action that may take years to accomplish.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I have said it (I believe its now probably close to hundred times) that I am here to get advice from homeowners and hopefully some honest board members who have been in similar situations.






OK - you know those options. The choice is yours as to how you want to proceed.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I have also mentioned why it would be a waste of time since I don't believ they would leave incriminating evidence after my experience with the insurance docs ( I will not repeat it anymore, just refer to previous posts).




I understand that you think it's a waste of time to physically go and inspect the records so you are not going to do it.

In my opinion, that is a mistake. It is a mistake for two reasons:

1) By offering you to come and inspect they are in compliance with the law as written. Therefore, you will likely be unable to win a legal action requesting the documents if you haven't proved that the documents aren't there by taking them up on that offer.

2) What if the paperwork is there (perhaps they forgot to pull it)? It may be the proof you seek but you have already determined, without looking, that the proof won't be there so why bother.

Those are the best logical reasons I can provide you for possibly wasting a few hours to look at the records.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

And yes, as you said the situation may or may not revert back to the same old good old boys and gals. So the best effective thing , that this doesn't revert if we get good board members, is to have an agency that would oversee that and make sure that the violators be punished and not just slapped on the wrist




Well you read my posts on that topic.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.



Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:53 PM

I ask again: What is wrong with an office inside the AG office or another agency to monitor an HOA?




I'm tired of re-posting the same answer over and over.
Just refer to previous posts as to the reasons why I need actual specifics before answering such a question.




I am tired of re-posting my answers too and getting the same response form you. Somebody who all of a sudden after multitude of licensing from various agencies and has no problems with them, but has problems with HOA licensing is beyond me. You also never answered what is wrong with a n office inside AG. I've never seen you answer that, that has also got you tired. I have not seen it even once. Can you please repeat it? That will be a first for me.
Again I have said many times why I won't go there and won't repeat it. You're like some other people here. You read and read and read and then repeat your question already answered.Just look a few lines above this posting.
And yes I need to take action now before time runs out. I know you will repeat this as if you've never seen this. I am here to get last minute advice from people here before taking my legal action. Read this: its from people with similar experiences, not board members sending me to read some toothless laws or start knocking on doors and plant a seed that may or may not flower in 7 to 10 years.


All these steps I have already taken steps like talking to attorneys and etc.



GREAT. I guess the only things left is for you to physically go and check examine the records and/or take one of your attorney's options.

No the last step is to take legal action and force them to release papers and more if necessary.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 2:49 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:59 PM
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 1:20 PM
How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?
You posted that they would let you see the books but you were afraid they would give you the stink eye. Which is it will they let you inspect or have they closed the books?

Even if the government oversight you want would suddenly materialize tomorrow, you do realize it would take more than: "I think." or "I know." It would actually take some minimal proof of wrong doing before the agency could act. And since every HOA has an individual like you who thinks everyone is out to cheat them or that the Board is committing some type of election fraud since they were unsuccessful in their attempt to get on the Board.

Better to keep gnashing your teeth and wringing your hands, knowing what you "know" than to actually do something that might prove you are in error.




It must be something in the water you're drinking that makes you not retain things. I have said many times why I won't do it and won't go over that anymore.Refer to my previous postings.
I've already said many times that this is a suspicion and not accusation and you still can't differentiate.
I suggest you talk to your water company to see what they put in there that makes you so circularly confused. If that didn't work try to see a memory specialist to see why you're having so many problems with your memory.

I really think my efforts to give a brethren HOA a black eye is what has got you scared and nervous. You see your future.



Amin, why you gotta be so negative and attack people trying to help you. If you are afraid to go by yourself take someone with you, perhaps your CPA or attorney. You keep saying you want to inspect the records but you won't for some nebulous reason. The reason I suspect is that the records have not been doctored, there are no kickbacks or insurance fraud.

You keep saying you want to hear from homeowners who have gone through this, yet you have been posting for weeks with no responses, guess you're alone. Oh wait all of your neighbors have gone through it too, yet the Board is keeping them in the dark.

Guess who else is keeping them in the dark? That's right - YOU. Instead of trying to pick fights on the interweb and calling strangers names and accusing them of malicious intent, spend a little time explaining to your neighbors how you are fighting for them, even if you are afraid to actually do anything.




Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 2:53 PM  
Just a recap of what this tread is actually about:

According to some posters HOA's are evil incarnate, run by megalomaniac Board Members who want to fine you into poverty and then foreclose and take your property. So why not disband your HOA? Most CC&R's have a mechanism by which they can be dissolved, follow it, cross all of the t's and dot all of the i's and voila, no more HOA. All you have to do (in most cases, check your CC&R's and State laws) is get your fellow homeowners to agree to disband and vote on it, which usually but not always requires 100% affirmative votes.

Next you need to dispose of any common areas such as the plots the entrance marker and storm water retention pond(s) inhabit. If you ask your local taxing authority, I'm sure they would be happy to take over the maintenance for them but they may make your home part of a "Special Taxing District" to pay for it. For HOA's that have pools and other amenities, perhaps you could sell them to someone who would open them up to the public.

After you get over that hurdle, you will need to distribute any HOA funds, after all the bills are paid and dissolve the HOA corporation with the state. Of course you would still have the deed restrictions which your neighbors could take you to court to enforce so you'll probably want to dissolve them too. You can do a simple internet search to find out how.

Oh I almost forgot, you probably will need the approval of your mortgage holder too, when they wrote the mortgage it was with the understanding that certain conditions would be met, which if the HOA were dissolved, would no longer exist, so you would be modifying the contract.

I am not an attorney nor do I work in the legal field, this is simply my lay understanding on how easy it is to dissolve an HOA, shouldn't take more than a decade or two. The above advice does not apply to condo's, townhomes or co-op's.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 2:54 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

I am tired of re-posting my answers too and getting the same response form you. Somebody who all of a sudden after multitude of licensing from various agencies and has no problems with them, but has problems with HOA licensing is beyond me.




Like I said earlier, I don't know what you mean by HOA licensing.
Do you mean licensing of property managers (PMs) and management companies (MC)?


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

You also never answered what is wrong with a n office inside AG. I've never seen you answer that, that has also got you tired. I have not seen it even once. Can you please repeat it? That will be a first for me.




Since you asked, here is your earlier question and my response to it:

Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG.


I didn't comment about the AG because it wouldn't matter where the office was or who ran it. The question was simply too general for me to give a yes or no response without additional specifics.








Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

No the last step is to take legal action and force them to release papers and more if necessary.




I will certainly defer to your Attorneys advice.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 3:08 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 2:54 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

I am tired of re-posting my answers too and getting the same response form you. Somebody who all of a sudden after multitude of licensing from various agencies and has no problems with them, but has problems with HOA licensing is beyond me.




Like I said earlier, I don't know what you mean by HOA licensing.
Do you mean licensing of property managers (PMs) and management companies (MC)?


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

You also never answered what is wrong with a n office inside AG. I've never seen you answer that, that has also got you tired. I have not seen it even once. Can you please repeat it? That will be a first for me.




Since you asked, here is your earlier question and my response to it:

Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG.


I didn't comment about the AG because it wouldn't matter where the office was or who ran it. The question was simply too general for me to give a yes or no response without additional specifics.








Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

No the last step is to take legal action and force them to release papers and more if necessary.




I will certainly defer to your Attorneys advice.



Thats right. you didn't answer to the AG because you didn't want to. When there is an effort to bring HOAs under control of some agency , which would pay attention to most of ours biggest investment, you just don't want to investigate how it can be done.You just don't want to address it. If you truly didn't like HOAs as you have said earlier, then you would try to find out how homeowners can have voice including checks and balances, not just reciting laws till cows come home.If i have a n issue with my attorney like financial misappropriation (only suspicion) , then I know where to file a complaint and have them investigate him/her. If I have the same problem with HOA then you have questions and it would be too general for you. If you are truly dislike HOAs, then you should know the value of your home is a whole lot more than what you pay an attorney, insurance company or other professionals.This is where your insincerity comes If licensing is good enough for them then an agency or some sort of licensing should be more than good but a necessity for HOAs. Instead of that thick-headed, sheriff-loving guy who puts his neighbors in jail, you would have a committee going over complaints in a civilized manner and not batons or bars. I am sure homeowners would have no problems giving $100-$200 per year for such a committee so taxpayer money would not be used.
Would you have any problem with such a committee? yes or no is the only answer.
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 3:26 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 2:49 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 1:59 PM
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 1:20 PM
How would you suggest I prove that, when they close their books on me?
You posted that they would let you see the books but you were afraid they would give you the stink eye. Which is it will they let you inspect or have they closed the books?

Even if the government oversight you want would suddenly materialize tomorrow, you do realize it would take more than: "I think." or "I know." It would actually take some minimal proof of wrong doing before the agency could act. And since every HOA has an individual like you who thinks everyone is out to cheat them or that the Board is committing some type of election fraud since they were unsuccessful in their attempt to get on the Board.

Better to keep gnashing your teeth and wringing your hands, knowing what you "know" than to actually do something that might prove you are in error.




It must be something in the water you're drinking that makes you not retain things. I have said many times why I won't do it and won't go over that anymore.Refer to my previous postings.
I've already said many times that this is a suspicion and not accusation and you still can't differentiate.
I suggest you talk to your water company to see what they put in there that makes you so circularly confused. If that didn't work try to see a memory specialist to see why you're having so many problems with your memory.

I really think my efforts to give a brethren HOA a black eye is what has got you scared and nervous. You see your future.



Amin, why you gotta be so negative and attack people trying to help you. If you are afraid to go by yourself take someone with you, perhaps your CPA or attorney. You keep saying you want to inspect the records but you won't for some nebulous reason. The reason I suspect is that the records have not been doctored, there are no kickbacks or insurance fraud.

You keep saying you want to hear from homeowners who have gone through this, yet you have been posting for weeks with no responses, guess you're alone. Oh wait all of your neighbors have gone through it too, yet the Board is keeping them in the dark.

Guess who else is keeping them in the dark? That's right - YOU. Instead of trying to pick fights on the interweb and calling strangers names and accusing them of malicious intent, spend a little time explaining to your neighbors how you are fighting for them, even if you are afraid to actually do anything.







You're not trying to help me. You're trying to attack me, demean me, forget on purpose what I said and overall trying to dismiss me. If you were trying to help me you would have first of all tell me of experiences either you or somebody similar have had. If you don't have neither, then at least you wouldn't criticize me for getting what is rightfully mine. If you were trying to help me , you wouldn't make me answer the same questions that I have gone over many times, you would have probably tried to refer me to somebody that could help me, not being negative on me. At this stage and the zero value of your help, I would definitely be happy in your retention of my answers. I am not picking fights. I don't know anybody here. this is my first time here. As i have said before, if this was correctly named Hoaboardmembertalk I would have never set foot here.If somebody treats me crappy , I treat them that way. If somebody has some questions and asks them in a civilized manner, I will act accordingly. Even when you had a rare moment of civilized Q&A , I did answer you accordingly.That was just I believe yesterday, which I said I was surprised.

Your thread is still bogus to me. Sentences like "it could take a decade or two", or "you will get sued by your neighbor" or "sell your common pool" is to scare people from even thinking about disbanding their HOA. In other words keep your necessary evil, which is a statement I believe made up by some board member to legitimize thievery and kickbacks and make it look like a fact of life that we all have to live with. No evil is necessary.It is not necessary to live with evil and evil should be fought at all times and make life pleasant for the people who pay their dues and make what is taking advantage of their state-given power.Homeowners need to have accountability at their finger tips. They pay for it, why not?
AminB


Posts:0


08/30/2013 3:35 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 2:54 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

I am tired of re-posting my answers too and getting the same response form you. Somebody who all of a sudden after multitude of licensing from various agencies and has no problems with them, but has problems with HOA licensing is beyond me.




Like I said earlier, I don't know what you mean by HOA licensing.
Do you mean licensing of property managers (PMs) and management companies (MC)?


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

You also never answered what is wrong with a n office inside AG. I've never seen you answer that, that has also got you tired. I have not seen it even once. Can you please repeat it? That will be a first for me.




Since you asked, here is your earlier question and my response to it:

Posted By TimB4 on 08/30/2013 7:59 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 7:44 AM

With all your efforts to show neutrality this shows your bias. You did not even address the comment about AG.


I didn't comment about the AG because it wouldn't matter where the office was or who ran it. The question was simply too general for me to give a yes or no response without additional specifics.






Thats right you didn't answer it. You simply did not want to entertain the thought. If you really disliked the HOAs and probably see their abusive power, you would have said we can do this or that or we could have an agency with this or that power. You simply don't want an agency overseeing what board members do in private. This is an disingenuous response to me question.There is no excuse for not even addressing it if you really disliked the HOAs.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 2:34 PM

No the last step is to take legal action and force them to release papers and more if necessary.




I will certainly defer to your Attorneys advice.


GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 3:50 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:26 PM
You're not trying to help me. You're trying to attack me, demean me, forget on purpose what I said and overall trying to dismiss me. If you were trying to help me you would have first of all tell me of experiences either you or somebody similar have had. If you don't have neither, then at least you wouldn't criticize me for getting what is rightfully mine. If you were trying to help me , you wouldn't make me answer the same questions that I have gone over many times, you would have probably tried to refer me to somebody that could help me, not being negative on me. At this stage and the zero value of your help, I would definitely be happy in your retention of my answers. I am not picking fights. I don't know anybody here. this is my first time here. As i have said before, if this was correctly named Hoaboardmembertalk I would have never set foot here.If somebody treats me crappy , I treat them that way. If somebody has some questions and asks them in a civilized manner, I will act accordingly. Even when you had a rare moment of civilized Q&A , I did answer you accordingly.That was just I believe yesterday, which I said I was surprised.

Your thread is still bogus to me. Sentences like "it could take a decade or two", or "you will get sued by your neighbor" or "sell your common pool" is to scare people from even thinking about disbanding their HOA. In other words keep your necessary evil, which is a statement I believe made up by some board member to legitimize thievery and kickbacks and make it look like a fact of life that we all have to live with. No evil is necessary.It is not necessary to live with evil and evil should be fought at all times and make life pleasant for the people who pay their dues and make what is taking advantage of their state-given power.Homeowners need to have accountability at their finger tips. They pay for it, why not?




Amin I realize it's your nature when someone asks an uncomfortable question to try and deflect it but why are you keeping your neighbors in the dark????? You are as guilty as nay member of your Board if you know someone is stealing your neighbor's money and don't tell them. I think it's called accessory after the fact but I'm not an attorney.

"it could take a decade or two" - It's called hyperbole.

"you will get sued by your neighbor" - If the Deed Restrictions remain after you disband the HOA then yes your neighbor can sue to enforce them. In fact even if the HOA exists and the Board is ignoring a Deed Restriction violation YOU as a homeowner have the right to sue your neighbor to enforce it.

"sell your common pool" - I realize this might be a difficult concept for you to comprehend but I'll try. You and your neighbors as members of the HOA jointly own the common elements, pool, retention pond etc. When you disband the HOA you have to get rid of the common elements because there is no longer a legal entity to administer it. Without the HOA Board who is going to collect money to maintain the pool, provide insurance etc.?








Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 3:51 PM  
as nay member should be as any member

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 4:08 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

Thats right. you didn't answer to the AG because you didn't want to.




Well I gave you my reasons. If you believe me or not is certainly your option.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

When there is an effort to bring HOAs under control of some agency , which would pay attention to most of ours biggest investment, you just don't want to investigate how it can be done.




No. I'm willing to investigate how it can be done. I told you I support VA's method. I gave you links to the laws that specifies how it's done. You have yet to provide specifics on how you would have it done. When we were discussing how it's done in VA, you wanted to change the topic back to your specific issue. Which we did. Now we are back discussing this proposed agency to oversee Associations but the only specifics you have offered is that it can be housed in the AG's office.

As I pointed out, until I know specifics, I'm not willing to agree or disagree to additional government oversight. As I said, I believe that the members working from within the Association have more power and authority to make the changes and can make them quicker than some politician who doesn't even own property in the development.

I pointed out that it would be logical to expect that the HOA industry will likely lobby against any law or for amendments to a proposed law to minimize the new agencies authority or to make the law more favorable to the HOA Industry than to the membership.

I've been discussing it. You seem to be hung up on where the office will work out of.
My response about the AGs office is simple - I don't believe it matters where the office is physically located. However, the specifics on where the funding will come from, what rights might a member be giving up, what authority that office will ultimately have and what safeguards can be put in place to prevent corruption at that level are far far far more important than where the workers desks are located.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

If you truly didn't like HOAs as you have said earlier, then you would try to find out how homeowners can have voice including checks and balances, not just reciting laws till cows come home.




I've already gone over that.
I've told you what I did to make that happen within my HOA.
You said that it takes too much time to do that in your Association.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

If i have a n issue with my attorney like financial misappropriation (only suspicion) , then I know where to file a complaint and have them investigate him/her. If I have the same problem with HOA then . . .




If you suspect fraud with an insurance agency, you simply need to provide your suspicions to the insurance agency. Since they are the one's paying the money out, I'm fairly sure that they will investigate.

If you suspect misappropriation of funds and/or embezzlement, then you get what documentation you can and go to the police or local district attorney with what proof you have. If they say there is nothing there, so be it. If they say there may be something there but you need more proof, explain that they Association isn't cooperating and ask what can be done.

If the Association doesn't want to give you access to the records as required by the law (OH, I do believe your Association is willing to give you access) then you have the same options I've laid out before:

Take them to court
change things from within
work to change applicable laws
live with it
move

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

If I have the same problem with HOA then you have questions and it would be too general for you. If you are truly dislike HOAs, then you should know the value of your home is a whole lot more than what you pay an attorney, insurance company or other professionals.




I disagree. In my opinion (and as stated before) the value of my time and energy is far more valuable that what I pay an attorney, insurance company or other professional. This time and energy I have been paying. I paid with it for three years in order to gather support and educate the membership. I continue to pay with it to make sure that the changes which made my Association better stay while I continue to look for ways to make sure that the real power stays with the members and not with the Board.

I chose to do this because it was something I could do right then and there. I didn't have to rely on someone else to do this for me. I didn't have to compromise on what I thought was needed to be done. I gathered support and made the changes I through were needed.

As I said earlier, removing and replacing those whom you believe are violating the law and/or governing documents is the only way to be positive that they won't do it again. The difference appears to be that you prefer someone else to actually remove them and I prefer to do the entire job myself so I know it was actually done.

Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

This is where your insincerity comes




As I said earlier, I'll let my postings and actions speak for themselves and leave it to others to make that determination.


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

If licensing is good enough for them then an agency or some sort of licensing should be more than good but a necessity for HOAs.




Again, I don't know what you mean about licensing for HOAs. Do you mean requiring Directors to be certified by some licensing bureau?

If it is, that was discussed in already in a different thread. There were differing opinions. However, the one thing that stood out is if licensing was to be required, then the Director should probably become a paid position. This of course may prevent some people from serving but don't have time to take the class. It may also cause some to agree to run but do a lousy job as they are in it for the paycheck only.

If you want to continue that discussion, it's best that you continue it on that thread so all the points of view are together in one place.
See Subject: Making unqualified volunteers qualified


Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

. . . you would have a committee going over complaints in a civilized manner and not batons or bars. I am sure homeowners would have no problems giving $100-$200 per year for such a committee so taxpayer money would not be used.




I agree about going over complaints in a civilized manner. If an individual (be they on the board or not) can't conduct themselves in a civilized manner than they should be asked to leave the meeting. If they can return to discussions in a civilized manner then they should stay. If not, and they won't leave, the meeting should simply be adjourned.

Speak for yourself as far as being willing to pay for a committee.

I know of many homeowners living on a fixed income or are out of work and are barely living paycheck to paycheck. Personally, I'd prefer to make the changes internally and use that money for other things.




Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:08 PM

Would you have any problem with such a committee? yes or no is the only answer.




Again, it depends on the specifics.

Many thought universal health care was a good idea. Now that the details are known on how it's going to be implemented, what it will cost and what was given up, many of those same people who thought it was good now think it's a bad idea. For example: Initially Congress was required to participate in the program. Well, that has been waived and they are no longer required to participate in the law they said was a great idea.

The devil is in the details? Who would sit on the committee? What qualifies them to sit on the committee? What authority do they have? What rights might I have to waive to such a committee? What oversight, if any, is there with the committee? Are the committee members paid? Will this be a fixed cost or can it increase every year? If it can increase, what protections are there to limit the rate of increase? Is participation in front of the committee mandatory or voluntary? What issues will be heard? What issues won't be heard? etc. etc. etc.

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


08/30/2013 4:15 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/30/2013 3:35 PM

Thats right you didn't answer it. You simply did not want to entertain the thought. If you really disliked the HOAs and probably see their abusive power, you would have said we can do this or that




I had already said that in my opinion the best way to remove abusive power is to gather support and make changes from within.

If you don't want to make changes from within, fine.
If you want to lobby the TX legislature to create a new agency to oversee HOAs, fine.

I don't live in TX. So honestly, I don't care if such an agency is created in TX or not. VA already has one and I told you that I support how that is ran.


If your limited on the amount of time you have to resolve your issue with your Association, I suggest you implement one or more of the options you have available. I honestly wish you luck in resolving your issue.

Tim
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/30/2013 5:17 PM  
Amin,

Show me where you have attacked anyone else without an American name, you racist.

How do you like it? Do you just treat people this way that have "American" names, whatever that means?

I already answered your question, like everyone has been doing here but you are dense and so intent on playing the victim card you think you can get away with calling someone racist just because they have an American sounding name to you.

I have no clue as to your heritage. It is your bizarre behavior, not your name, that will attract attention.

Maybe you think you will intimidate people by playing the race/discrimination card because it usually works. Not with me bud, Frank may not my real name so be careful.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


08/30/2013 5:24 PM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 08/30/2013 5:17 PM
Amin,

Show me where you have attacked anyone else without an American name, you racist.

How do you like it? Do you just treat people this way that have "American" names, whatever that means?

I already answered your question, like everyone has been doing here but you are dense and so intent on playing the victim card you think you can get away with calling someone racist just because they have an American sounding name to you.

I have no clue as to your heritage. It is your bizarre behavior, not your name, that will attract attention.

Maybe you think you will intimidate people by playing the race/discrimination card because it usually works. Not with me bud, Frank may not my real name so be careful.




Tough love but well said.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 6:11 PM  
Frank I've found over the years that those who scream for tolerance are usually intolerant of anyone else.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SharonH9


Posts:0


08/30/2013 6:57 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 2:53 PM
Just a recap of what this tread is actually about:

According to some posters HOA's are evil incarnate, run by megalomaniac Board Members who want to fine you into poverty and then foreclose and take your property. So why not disband your HOA? Most CC&R's have a mechanism by which they can be dissolved, follow it, cross all of the t's and dot all of the i's and voila, no more HOA. All you have to do (in most cases, check your CC&R's and State laws) is get your fellow homeowners to agree to disband and vote on it, which usually but not always requires 100% affirmative votes.

Next you need to dispose of any common areas such as the plots the entrance marker and storm water retention pond(s) inhabit. If you ask your local taxing authority, I'm sure they would be happy to take over the maintenance for them but they may make your home part of a "Special Taxing District" to pay for it. For HOA's that have pools and other amenities, perhaps you could sell them to someone who would open them up to the public.

After you get over that hurdle, you will need to distribute any HOA funds, after all the bills are paid and dissolve the HOA corporation with the state. Of course you would still have the deed restrictions which your neighbors could take you to court to enforce so you'll probably want to dissolve them too. You can do a simple internet search to find out how.

Oh I almost forgot, you probably will need the approval of your mortgage holder too, when they wrote the mortgage it was with the understanding that certain conditions would be met, which if the HOA were dissolved, would no longer exist, so you would be modifying the contract.

I am not an attorney nor do I work in the legal field, this is simply my lay understanding on how easy it is to dissolve an HOA, shouldn't take more than a decade or two. The above advice does not apply to condo's, townhomes or co-op's.




In my subdivision the original nonprofit corporation that was an HOA dissolved. The homeowners created a new nonprofit corporation to manage the common areas. The covenants were still valid at that point but the Board failed to preserve them per Iowa's 21-year time limit to preserve. What we have left is a nonprofit corporation to manage the sanitary sewer and two recreational ponds. There are no rules and regulations and no covenants to enforce. So in Iowa it is possible to dissolve the HOA and start a new nonprofit corp. whose only purpose is to maintain the common areas. The funds from the original HOA were just transferred over to the new nonprofit. The common areas were also deeded over to the new nonprofit. I have no historical knowledge of how this process was carried out. But I do know that it did not take 10 years to accomplish it. This is what occurred where I live. I understand that in other states it may not be possible to do this.

At one time the nonprofit not only managed the sanitary sewer but provided water and road maintenance. Iowa created a rural water system back in the 1970's and folks with private wells or municipal water were than transferred over to the rural water association and the roads were deeded over to the county. My county now maintains our roads and they do quite a good job of maintenance. I live in a very rural part of Iowa and the county is quick to clear my roads in the winter time.

But my subdivision is far from paradise. I have posted my experience before and will not go into those details but I still stand by the opinion that in HOA land the simpler the better. No fines, no liens, no foreclosures.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/30/2013 7:14 PM  
Sharon I've read with interest the trials and tribulations you've been going through and have to admit that they are unique. I had not considered forming another non-profit to care for the common elements but how do you make participation mandatory?

"I have posted my experience before and will not go into those details but I still stand by the opinion that in HOA land the simpler the better. No fines, no liens, no foreclosures."

While I agree that sometimes, especially in smaller HOA's, Boards can be over reaching, no fines, no liens, no foreclosures more often than not would equal chaos and no money.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GnomeX
(Washington)

Posts:253


08/30/2013 7:33 PM  
Posted By SharonH9 on 08/30/2013 6:57 PM

But my subdivision is far from paradise. I have posted my experience before and will not go into those details but I still stand by the opinion that in HOA land the simpler the better. No fines, no liens, no foreclosures.




No fines, no liens, no foreclosures? An impractical absolutely unrealistic utopian dream.

Fines, liens, and foreclosures are the ONLY enforcement tools of an HOA. Covenant restrictions aside, speaking strictly of common area property funding, if you have no means to legally collect people not paying will skyrocket and not pay their share of common area expenses. I tried your way 3 years ago and took the lenient approach and gave people the benefit of the doubt that they would be responsible on their own. It absolutely does not work. Non-payers increase and unnecessarily burden those that do pay.

In fact these are precisely the same enforcement tools for city, county, and state governments. Ideas like this are not only ridiculous, they are a dangerous. And I am a Libertarian and even I understand this!

Bottom line is this. If you do NOT want to be governed by an HOA, do yourself and everyone else a favor and do not buy property within one. That is the beauty of our country. No one forces you into a contract.

Well... That was until you know what was passed...
SharonH9


Posts:0


08/30/2013 8:01 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/30/2013 7:14 PM
Sharon I've read with interest the trials and tribulations you've been going through and have to admit that they are unique. I had not considered forming another non-profit to care for the common elements but how do you make participation mandatory?

"I have posted my experience before and will not go into those details but I still stand by the opinion that in HOA land the simpler the better. No fines, no liens, no foreclosures."

While I agree that sometimes, especially in smaller HOA's, Boards can be over reaching, no fines, no liens, no foreclosures more often than not would equal chaos and no money.



My situation sure is unique. The question of mandatory participation is one that I have as well. In the throes of the lawsuit our attorney said that we are obligated to pay a reasonable fee for the services the corporation provides. Paying for those services was not what the dispute was about. It was the amount, the nondisclosure, and the selective enforcement. The Association separates the dues and fees into sewer maintenance and pond maintenance. I understand the mandatory participation for the sewer maintenance but not the pond maintenance. I believe that should be optional. Although there is an Iowa Supreme Court case titled Okoboji Camp Owners vs. Siddens where it was ruled that its a package deal and you can not pick and choose what you want to pay for. It was also ruled though that the "package must be reasonable."

I think the corporation could be successful and there could be harmony in my neighborhood if the Board set reasonable and fair dues and fees, is transparent, and objective.
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 5 of 8 << < 12345678 > >>
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > How to Disband Your HOA



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement