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Subject: Suing my HOA
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Author Messages
JonD1


Posts:0


07/21/2013 7:20 AM  
"I did not make anything up unlike you. You seem to be making a lot of stuff up in reference to me so all I can say is that you amuse the hell out of me with your juvenile ranting and ravings. I seriously doubt you are the president of an HOA. let alone a member of the board for 25 consecutive years."

Just how do you hold an intelligent productive conversation with someone who claims to deal only with the facts who then in the next breath makes assumptions based on ZIPPO.

Freddy who really gives a rat's a$$ what you doubt? I certainly don't.

Just for that I am going to lower just YOUR property value more!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/21/2013 5:01 PM  
speaking of Arizona!

I heard someone just filed a lawsuit against that wonderful state, for aiding and abeting these HOAs ripping off

homeowners.

That might be interesting.

The legislature is for sale, they should just put up signs...they have been selling to the CAI all of the wonderful laws

that easily transfers our money and our equity into their pockets, with the help of those unqualified amatuer volunteers

that is.

Stay tuned, it might be interesting

And congrats again OUT!

You took those con artists to task!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/21/2013 5:05 PM  


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/money/article_777019be-ef26-11e2-b663-001a4bcf887a.html

Where do these people think we moved to anyway...Cuba?
MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/21/2013 5:40 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/21/2013 5:05 PM


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/money/article_777019be-ef26-11e2-b663-001a4bcf887a.html

Where do these people think we moved to anyway...Cuba?



Mike,

Maybe you should have read the article and asked a grown-up to explain it to you.

The Arizona legislature enacted a bill that greatly restricts local governments from forcing developers to create HOA's. That would seem to be what you want, isn't it? Fewer government-required HOA's? That's what I want to see.

The lawsuit alleges that the bill was passed improperly and seeks to repeal it. The lawsuit was filed by a non-profit "Center for Law in the Public Interest." Does not sound like any part of the public I am familiar with.

FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/21/2013 10:00 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/21/2013 7:20 AM
"I did not make anything up unlike you. You seem to be making a lot of stuff up in reference to me so all I can say is that you amuse the hell out of me with your juvenile ranting and ravings. I seriously doubt you are the president of an HOA. let alone a member of the board for 25 consecutive years."

Just how do you hold an intelligent productive conversation with someone who claims to deal only with the facts who then in the next breath makes assumptions based on ZIPPO.

Freddy who really gives a rat's a$$ what you doubt? I certainly don't.

Just for that I am going to lower just YOUR property value more!




I tried to dumb down my post so even you could understand it, But I guess a moron like you is so focused on irrelevant facts that you still hsve not grasped the basics of the case.

1. Whether Out's dues were waived during her time on the board had nothing to do with her case.
2. Whatever her relationship with the board is also immaterial

the facts of the case were:
1. The city picked up providing services that her HOA had previously done.
2. Her HOA was still collecting dues for these services that were now done by the city.
3. The HOA was or had increased the dues in the face of an existing (and still current & legal Deed Restriction) without going through the proper process.

That my friend was what the case was all about.

You failed to grasp these simple facts of the case.

yet, (and here's the reference to NY and all the graft and corruption NY is legendary for) is that these dues were collected under false pretenses. This is fraud no matter how you slice it.

I guess you living in NY, you're so desensitized to corruption that you don't find this to be objectionable! You has stated in past posts on other threads that you, yourself care little for the rules as long as it is going towards the "good" of the HOA. The intentions are really immaterial when your breaking the law.

For you, is appears that the ends justifies the means and that is not how our system of laws works!

You have again failed to grasp the concept. Instead you obfuscate the facts with claims that are irrelevant to the case. You seem to be wrapped around the axel on issues that were stated after the end of the case in response to my post by Out. These facts you bring up are pure nonsense. Your ego has gotten in the way of any sense of objectivity in this matter. You have proved yourself to be a moron of the highest order.

Again, based on your prior posts, we can see that you do not care for rules and if you don't get caught and/or prosecuted then all is fair. You also seem to be backing the HOA in all the threads I have read where you responded. Seems to you, having been a President or director for all these years, you have decided to be judge jjury and executioner of all things related to HOA's. You hold all members of HOA in contempt. Maybe time for you to step back and take a little break from the HOA business.

You pound on people like Out who see injustice and try to make things right. This is a little victory and the possible start of a lot of good she can accomplish in her HOA. yet, you still hold her in contempt because you state what has she accomplished. I guess if it does not meet your high standards of complete and immediate fixes then she and the rest of us are not worthy. That is a very pompous attitude on your part (makes you more than a moron in my book).

I would say that you don't know much at all about the goings on of what it takes to affect change in an HOA. You lambast Out for fighting this for four years yet your own struggle (by your own pontificating, took many, many years of hard work on your part). So, why, beat down on someone like Out?

Do you need to do this to feed your own small ego or make up for your masculine failings? Your Napoleon complex comes across quite clearly in your postings.

Again, I am amused by your postings and can always count on your ranting for a good laugh!

Don't ever leave your HOA for they are in desperate need of their village idiot. You have found your true calling in life.

Out has achieved a victory by proving the hOA has violated the original deed restriction which is obviously still enforceable. She, by her own post, got the money she was asking for. This and the court verdict can now be used to show the rest of the HOA membership that the HOA Board was violating the Deed Restriction. If enough of the sheeple in the HOA become concerned then that will be (or could be) the beginning of a grass roots effort to get rid of the current board and replace them with new blood who may realize that the documents need to be updated.

How you get to mind reading and all shows your contempt. The path is a long haul as you well know. But, it has to start somewhere. Did you get all the changes from your corrupt HOA overnight? or did it take some years of effort with many bumps along the way.

I still have yet to see you make any post vilifying any HOA board for their bad actions and for not following the rules of the governing documents. You seem to be the great protector of all HOA's no matter how bad they are. There are some really, really good HOA boards out there. But for every good one, there are "probably" many bad ones because as you and other continuously state, these board are made up of unpaid, untrained, non-professionals. Some of these people have Napoleon complex's as bad or worse than yours.

It is always hard to oust the incumbants. This is a proven fact due to apathy and so forth by people living in the HOA's who just want to be left alone and not rock the boat.

Being a board member is a thankless job and not many are willing to do it. Most have a personal agenda for being on the board. very few are truly alturistic and want to better their HOA (unless it is to better it in their own image or view of what they want).

You may have been doing a good job. I would say no to that because of your attitude but you may have bullied your HOA membership the same way you attempt to bully people on this forum. If anyone has a dissenting view you beat them down. I have read many of your posts and that is the general theme.

You attacked Out from the get go, You have attacked many others who came to this forum posting for advice on how to approach or handle an issue. Your tactic is to attack them, never to s upport them. When you are challenged you attack with irrelevant issues that are not germain to the issue.

Out did not cost her HOA a single penny in this lawsuit. At every turn it was the majority of the seven member board and their lawyer making bad decisions and costing the HOA money.

For you and Melissa to continuously state that suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors then you must feel that anyone who sues any government entity is doing the same thing. Whether it is an HOA (a quasi private government) or a city or a county, state or even the federal government. So, are you and Melissa against all these lawsuits when damage is being done (either physical or otherwise?) Your logic is flawed in that your apporach is to just continue to deal with it.

Obviously Out has not been in her HOA since it was founded in 1939. I think she stated she has been there 13015 years. In many cases it takes time to understand what is going on - yet during this discovery time, you blame them for what? not being immediately aware of a bad situation??

You have a lot to learn and a lot of reason to step back and check your ego. You may be a good guy or you may be the asshole I think you are. All I have is your posts to go on and the picture it paints of you is not very pleasing. I don't know you nor do I care to ever know you. You just are nothing more than a bully. Maybe living in NYC has really gotten to you or maybe the stress of being a Board President for 25 years is too much for you.

It would be great if you offered your (supposed) vast experience on your HOA struggles to Out and the rest of us so that she might be able to launch and run a campaign to rid her HOA of these bad board members. You never take an opportunity to do that. Instead you'd rather kill the messenger and that is very sad and makes you pathetic.

You and melissa may have your opinions on suing an HOA. We can respect that but there are times when there is no other option, as in Out's case. You certainly do not respect that. Because of that, you actually lose credibility on this forum and come off as nothing more than a bully and a moron.

Try to be a little more respectful of others. Every situation is different and the laws and governing documents are as different as the number of HOA that exist.

OutC
(Missouri)

Posts:21


07/21/2013 11:26 PM  
In the end, it was a simple case of the judge having only to research and rule on
1) had I entered into a contract via my homeowner's title/deed that referenced the Charter.
2) was that Charter legally filed in the County records and remain unammended.
3) was I correct on my square footage, interpretation, and calculation. (SEE BELOW)

RE: Jon's ongoing personal attack and affront to my credibility, can be observed in his following questions that I have nonetheless, decided to answer.
1. How do you know why $387 was awarded and how that amount was arrived at? ALREADY ANSWERED.
2. What has OUT provided that suggested to you this [taking funds for things that long ago were picked up by the city] was proven? MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD (KCMO.ORG)
3. Were you there in court? YES, AS PLAINTIFF!
4. Did OUT provide you with a copy of the court's determination? "THE COURT BEING FULLY ADVISED IN THE PREMISES FINDS THE ISSUES IN PLAINTIFF;S PETITION IN FAVOR OF PALINTIFF AND AGAINST DEFENDANT. IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED AND ADJUDGED THAT PLAINTIFF HAVE AND RECOVER OF AND FROM DEFENDANT THE SUM OF $387.45 PLUS COSTS, AND HAVE EXECUTION THEREOF." ....IS THAT OFFICIAL ENOUGH FOR YOU, JON?
5. Were the rates increased prior to the current Board being in place? YES, FLUCTUATED FROM $30-75-60-50....ADDITIONALLY, LATE FEES WHICH ARE REQUIRED BY CHARTER TO BE 8% PER ANNUM HAVE BEEN CHARGED AT $1/MONTH; 8% COMPOUNDED MONTHLY; $25/YR; ABOLISHED, ALL IN VIOLATION OF CHARTER.
6. Did OUT pay HER dues during the time she served on the Board? OF COURSE NOT...AND NEITHER DID I ADD THOSE YEARS INTO MY PETITION. WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM IF NOT ETHICAL?
7. What in fact were the legal fees to the property? 10,171 SQUARE FEET/ ONE MILL PER ANNUM PER SQUARE FOOT/ $10.17 FROM 1939 TO PRESENT DAY! THAT IS A NUMBER THAT WILL NEVER, EVER CHANGE!
8. What in fact was OUT's relationship with the Board prior to her filing suit? I WAS RE-ELECTED AND RESIGNED IMMEDIATELY AFTER FILING SUIT.
9. How do you make the claim OUT proved there were duplicate services provided? (SEE #2)
10. How do you make the claim OUT's win will change the Board out and update the documents? THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT NEED TO BE UPDATED...THEY NEED TO BE ENFORCED. THE JUDGE AGREED.

It will be up to the Board whether to follow the Charter and the judge's decision, but I have ensured the stability of the Charter's language (as long as it exists) for my property. If the Board does not decide to apply the rate of assessment unilaterally (please, inform yourself what ROA means before commenting about percentages and inflation) then I will offer assistance to any other resident who thinks they have been taken advantage of. THIS HOA IS NOT A SACRED INSTITUTION! The author of the Charter provided for its dissolution if it becomes either necessary or expedient. Duplicate services are now offered by the city. Those whose lives need to revolve around an HOA can start a voluntary one. There are several successful ones within just a few miles of this one.

Here's some facts and figures for the math whiz kids:
Lots in our HOA range from less than 6,000 sq ft to over 20,000 sq ft. Average lot size 9184. While all have been charged the same amount for at least 25 years (more years than that would be speculation on my part) that was not the INTENT of the document. EACH property owner was to pay his/her FAIR share based on SQUARE FOOTAGE. Why would anyone (historically) change that when clearly the Charter does not allow it? Of course that will not produce enough income to offer services. What it will do, is pay a part-time secretary to send out annual dues notices which funds will go to pay her salary so she can send them out again the following year in order to pay er salary to send them out.... That seems to be "circular" reasoning, and "reason enough" to dissolve this sham.



OutC
(Missouri)

Posts:21


07/22/2013 12:10 AM  
FredO, I was composing my reply during your latest post. I find you had a very good grasp of my situation immediately. While I appreciate your supportive efforts, I have become accustomed to moronic attacks from a core group within this community.

I have been called "crazy [nickname], crazy bat, stream-of-conscience ramblings, a complete lunatic, clucking hen, 'after the third time I will treat you badly all of the time'...and a repugnant and personal question 'I hear you're an avid online dater. How's that working out?"

Online comments have been made "hire security, parents in the neighborhood are afraid for their children....acting a fool, better yet, crazy old broad... quit poisoning this site with your insanity... thick in the head...irrational, angry clown because all this ranting and raving is just a joke to the rest of us...[new father] might have a binky or two that you can borrow...your dog and pony show...Do Not Argue with idiots they will only drag you down to their level and win with experience [whatever that means!]... I couldn't make it past the 2nd paragraph before I was bored - is there a point to this excessive post? LMAO I don't think so, you got further than I did... I have no further comment on delusional ramblings....500 characters of irrelevant statements. Stand in your own damn line"

Need I go on?

An uninformed prior Board president wrote "the Bylaws were re-written in 1995 in an attempt to free us of the silly (yep, I said it), silly Charter written more than a half century ago."

And an ignorant homeowner wrote, "I don't recall every agreeing to follow the Charter when I bought my home. That would have been impossible given the fact we didnt even see it for months after we moved in. I don't think anyone every "agreed" to follow it when they bought their homes. In fact we didn't even know one existed when we bought our homes."

I have also been taunted in at least 30 posts to "take us to court" and now that I have, comments are rolling in such as "Another suggestion, MOVE!!!!....I will my glad [sic] to offer my services free of charge to help you move...sad not more good reading as fiction. So full of innuendos and half truths" [in response to my detailed account online of the trial.]

Am I angry? No. What I am is astounded the lengths people will go to in order to publicly embarrass, excoriate, and slander/libel a fellow neighbor who had recently discovered a previously unknown document. Perhaps there is yet another chapter waiting in the wings....
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 2:39 AM  
OutC you are like a breath of fresh air! (especialy here)

My HOA syncophants and a few board members tried the "move" thing with me....once!

This is MY home, MY neighbors who we have a 20 year relationship with..this is where we raised OUR children.

I am NOT going anywhere.

What I am going to do is try to eradicate the ugly thing that has virtually destroyed our commmunity...

This pathetic, good for nothing HOA!
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


07/22/2013 7:08 AM  
Mike and Out;

I also have had Board members, we believe working together, try to intimidate us into moving. Not going to happen. Stick to your guns! And thanks to both of you.

FredO,

Your last posts hit the bull's eye! The poster you referred to lost all credibility with me as his posts are not even close to being objective. And you are correct that he does try and bully people. Those same tactics no doubt were employed in his community. They worked in others but as some of us recognize, the landscape is permanently changing. Either some of these folks don't realize it, or they do and what we are hearing are their last gasps
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 7:19 AM  
I watched the video of a Illinois Supreme Court case, where the attorney for the association actually used the "he can move"

argument!

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2013/113907.pdf

The poor guy was a terrible litigator and just sat there.

I would have let the weasel have it right between the eyes....

In fact the poor guy (plaintiff no less) actually lost his case, and now these repugnant things (HOAs) can have their own private cops patroling, detaining residents, drive around in cars with flashing lights on them....

Unbelievable huh?

Could you imagine what would happen in the bullying idiots HOA if he had his own private army of thugs to harrass us?

Someone would actually get hurt I think!

Too bad the Illinois SJC didn't have the Zimmerman case to think about prior to their lame decision.
JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 7:39 AM  
Freddy:

Seems you continue to provide YOUR version of what took place. Without any first hand knowledge or understanding.

And no matter how many times you make the claim YOU have ruled in fact fraud was committed does not make it so. I seem to remember OUT never mentioning that as one of her claims. Bit I guess from California you can charge and find guilt. And you claim some understanding of "criminal law". That's funny.

Obviously, you have developed some level of fondness, admiration,and hero worshiping in regards to OUT. So much so that you are unable to understand OUT's 4 years of effort have changed little. Despite your claims the current Board will now be replaced or that the documents will now be updated. An observation on your part that even OUT disagrees with.

And while it matters not to you I find it "interesting" that in one post OUT finds fault with the practice of Board members being allowed to not pay dues but while she served that practice was just fine for her. So is it you don't agree with the practice or is it you disagree only when others do it and not you?

And from what OUT has now provided seems not everyone in her own community appreciates, values or respects OUT's behavior in regards to the property where she lives. So while you find YOURSELF falling all over yourself to find 100% agreement with OUT and her actions seems from the comments OUT provided NOT ALL the residents in OUT's property see it your way. Imagine that.......

But I have no doubt sitting out in California you certainly can judge their opinions and overrule any ill will heading OUT's way. After all in Freddy's world OUT could never do any wrong.

So for those with the ability to judge without prejudice OUT's actions I have to ask why so much anger being sent her way by her neighbors? Seems quite clear not everyone agrees with her. With the exception of Freddy, Mike, and some other like minded folks who have no first hand knowledge of what in fact has taken place on OUT's property.

Did anyone ever consider the possibility the HOA lawyer got exactly what they wanted?

So I have to ask IF OUT is the big winner here, as Freddy likes to suggest why does she continue to come to this site defending her actions? Isn't victory enough. Or is it necessary for OUT to convince total strangers she in fact did the right thing? Why would that even matter?

Freddy your opinion of OUT does not jive with those who live in her community. Does that make YOU even wonder? Of course not!

And just so you know, not everyone that resides in NY state lives in NYC. New York State is a big area. Something I am sure difficult for you to grasp especially when hurling insults is your motivation.

Do you really think that supports YOUR limited views and understanding?

Or is that all you really have?

I'd be careful whose chest you pin a medal on when there exists the possibility their actions just might not have been all that heroic.

Have you checked with your realter I lowered you home value this morning!






JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 7:48 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 7:19 AM
I watched the video of a Illinois Supreme Court case, where the attorney for the association actually used the "he can move"

argument!

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2013/113907.pdf

The poor guy was a terrible litigator and just sat there.

I would have let the weasel have it right between the eyes....

In fact the poor guy (plaintiff no less) actually lost his case, and now these repugnant things (HOAs) can have their own private cops patroling, detaining residents, drive around in cars with flashing lights on them....

Unbelievable huh?

Could you imagine what would happen in the bullying idiots HOA if he had his own private army of thugs to harrass us?

Someone would actually get hurt I think!

Too bad the Illinois SJC didn't have the Zimmerman case to think about prior to their lame decision.




That's a lot of BOLD talk Mike considering you have been in and out of court with your HOA for what 10 years now and just who has gotten it right between the eyes in your cases?

And now with 10 years of failure under YOUR belt and a $250 online law degree you see yourself having the ability to judge the legal abilities of others. Now thats a HOOT!

Why don't you ever provide the details of YOUR legal battles with your 10 year attempt to "smack down" your HOA Board? Just how has that gone for you?

Why? Because understanding your 10 years of failure blows your entire argument apart.

A legal scholar or teacher you are not........


MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 8:21 AM  
Yuk,

What a nasty piece of work!

But what an excellent example of why HOAs, run by a bunch of volunteer "dim bulbed Jonnies" are such a BAD idea.
JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 8:59 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 8:21 AM
Yuk,

What a nasty piece of work!

But what an excellent example of why HOAs, run by a bunch of volunteer "dim bulbed Jonnies" are such a BAD idea.




After 10 years of failing to accomplish anything on your own property Mike all you have left is to offer your opinions to others in the hope they can and will do what you can't.

All you have left is barking at the moon selling to those limited folks the idea that YOU are the Shell Answer Man when it comes to HOAs. Just what are your credentials for claiming such a role? FAILURE?

Have you seen this link..... have you watched this video......have you read this case.....
Yes all HOAs are being "smacked down" and will be gone in 20 years because MIKE says so.


How about YOUR personal battle with YOUR HOA. How goes the war oh mighty one.
What is it 0-5. Have you taken away the Board members homes as you promised? Have you taken away the Board's right to issue fines like in Va.? Which never actually happened. Have you imposed new laws governing HOAs in Ma. as you suggested? Well no.

But what you did do was buy a second HOA property in Florida. Now you understood that was a horrible move and you hated the place but since you could not find another property in the state outside an HOA you had to do so. That rings true.

Then you report you sold the property at a nice profit! How did that happen? How could a property in an HOA increase in value? Not possible right????

And you sold this property to some unsuspecting schmuck without you warning them what they were buying? Did you not provide them with links to show how bad HOAs are? How about copies of all your suggestions NEVER to purchase property in an HOA? Did you provide those to the new owner? Of course not.

If you really had any principles or true convictions just how could you do that? I thought you lived to help others? To protect others. Or just not those who are buying YOUR property?

I got it...... Another real hero.....






FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 10:54 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/22/2013 8:59 AM
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 8:21 AM
Yuk,

What a nasty piece of work!

But what an excellent example of why HOAs, run by a bunch of volunteer "dim bulbed Jonnies" are such a BAD idea.




After 10 years of failing to accomplish anything on your own property Mike all you have left is to offer your opinions to others in the hope they can and will do what you can't.

All you have left is barking at the moon selling to those limited folks the idea that YOU are the Shell Answer Man when it comes to HOAs. Just what are your credentials for claiming such a role? FAILURE?

Have you seen this link..... have you watched this video......have you read this case.....
Yes all HOAs are being "smacked down" and will be gone in 20 years because MIKE says so.


How about YOUR personal battle with YOUR HOA. How goes the war oh mighty one.
What is it 0-5. Have you taken away the Board members homes as you promised? Have you taken away the Board's right to issue fines like in Va.? Which never actually happened. Have you imposed new laws governing HOAs in Ma. as you suggested? Well no.

But what you did do was buy a second HOA property in Florida. Now you understood that was a horrible move and you hated the place but since you could not find another property in the state outside an HOA you had to do so. That rings true.

Then you report you sold the property at a nice profit! How did that happen? How could a property in an HOA increase in value? Not possible right????

And you sold this property to some unsuspecting schmuck without you warning them what they were buying? Did you not provide them with links to show how bad HOAs are? How about copies of all your suggestions NEVER to purchase property in an HOA? Did you provide those to the new owner? Of course not.

If you really had any principles or true convictions just how could you do that? I thought you lived to help others? To protect others. Or just not those who are buying YOUR property?

I got it...... Another real hero.....








Actually johnny, it sounds like he sold it to a relative of yours ...... schmuck that's you, right...
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 11:26 AM  
Hi Fred,

No I haven't sold my home, and our case in now before the Mass. Supreme Court.

Buffoon man has no idea what he is talking about (big surprise) and our case is still alive and well.

I am also trying to strip from these organizations the power to fine.

Wouldn't that be a hoot, for our association attorney to lose this sure fire money maker for his bottom feeding buddies,

to a pro-se guy.... for an ENTIRE state!

Who knows, maybe it will be like that gay marriage case here in MA....it started a chain reaction throughout the country!
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 12:07 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/22/2013 7:39 AM
Freddy:

>>Seems you continue to provide YOUR version of what took place. Without any first hand knowledge or understanding.

Seems that's all any of us has done... other than OUT I don't think anyone else from this forum was there. I don't have a version of what happened. I am only repeating what was written by the OP.


>>And no matter how many times you make the claim YOU have ruled in fact fraud was committed does not make it so.
Hmm, again, you are not real smart on the law. Fraud is the taking of money through the use of false pretenses. If the HOA used the US Mail then Mail fraud also happened, maybe wire fraud too if anyone paid by electronic banking. Just because it was not prosecuted does not mean it didn't happen. Again, you seem to be severely morally and ethically challenged on this.

>>I seem to remember OUT never mentioning that as one of her claims.
yeah, that's right. Small claims court is for lower dollar amount civil claims. Fraud in most places (except maybe NY) fails under the Penal codes. So it was a jurisdictional issue. However, the judge did rule that the HOA was collecting more money than allowed by the charter and deed restriction. That verdict could be turned over to the Police for further investigation, "IF" Out wanted to go that route.

>>Bit I guess from California you can charge and find guilt. And you claim some understanding of "criminal law". That's funny.
What's funny is you being so morally challenged and lacking in integrity that you can't see the obvious.

>>Obviously, you have developed some level of fondness, admiration,and hero worshiping in regards to OUT.
That's right, when a member of the Greatest generation can still prove in this day and age that they have the ability to take on Bullies, and whip their ass in court, that is something to be admired. A man of dignity and character would be able to appreciate her efforts. Sadly, that is NOT you!


>>So much so that you are unable to understand OUT's 4 years of effort have changed little.
SO, how many years did it take you to effect the changes you claim you made in your own HOA? This is the part that truly shows you to be an ass.
It is a long uphill fight, by your own admission in other threads, so what gives/ Does it have to be all or nothing? Sounds like unless she achieved all that MikeR is trying to do, she deserves no credit for her efforts to date?

>>Despite your claims the current Board will now be replaced or that the documents will now be updated.
>> An observation on your part that even OUT disagrees with.

Well, if you had comprehended what I wrote, this verdict 'could" be a springboard for further actions and a basis to develop a grass roots level of support. It is up to Out to decide what to do next.

>>And while it matters not to you I find it "interesting" that in one post OUT finds fault with the practice of Board members being allowed
>>to not pay dues but while she served that practice was just fine for her.
yep! it matters not to me because it is not relevant to the case that we're discussing. Just more of your smoke and mirrors in being a bully.

>>So is it you don't agree with the practice or is it you disagree only when others do it and not you?
This sounds more like your philosophy! Certainly not mine! For the record, all members must pay dues, regardless of position. This is for transparency because if you have a situation like she described where being on the board allowed you to waive your dues, then no wonder there is no effort to limit the due's raising activities. It did not have an impact on the serving members of the board. Sort of like the US Congress - they pass obamacare and force it on us yet they have their own special Health Plan for the rest of their lives... I don't expect you to understand this because it has to do with fairness and that seems to be a very foreign concept to you.

>>And from what OUT has now provided seems not everyone in her own community appreciates, values or respects OUT's behavior
>>in regards to the property where she lives.

Yep, it seems that lots of negative comments come for the sitting board members or their friends. That is expected.

>>So while you find YOURSELF falling all over yourself to find 100% agreement with OUT and her actions seems from the comments OUT
>>provided NOT ALL the residents in OUT's property see it your way. Imagine that.......

Well, I do agree with Out and what she did and how she did it. That others don't see it or agree with it is what makes this country wonderful. We can have dissenting opinions. We can always agree to disagree. What I can't stand is moronic bullies like you.

>>But I have no doubt sitting out in California you certainly can judge their opinions and overrule any ill will heading OUT's way.
>>After all in Freddy's world OUT could never do any wrong.

never said or even felt that. But you are now guilty of everything you accuse me of. What a hypocrite!

>>So for those with the ability to judge without prejudice OUT's actions I have to ask why so much anger being sent her way by her neighbors?
I am pretty sure she said the HOA has some 600 members. The seven board members and their friends could easily cover the amount of hostility you talk about. Since egos are always fragile (yours especially it seems).

>>Seems quite clear not everyone agrees with her.
I have to agree with you on this statement.

>>With the exception of Freddy, Mike, and some other like minded folks who have no first hand knowledge
>>of what in fact has taken place on OUT's property.

That's right. No one except the OP in any thread on this forum has any first hand knowledge of what is going on in any OP's HOA (with very rare exceptions I am sure). We have to take the OP's word on the situation, and in every case they are undoubtedly emotionally involved in the issue.

>>Did anyone ever consider the possibility the HOA lawyer got exactly what they wanted?
I considered that he got the paycheck he was after for even going to court on a $387 case! Are you saying that the HOA Board wanted to have a judgment against themselves forcing them to go back to the deed restriction for for annual dues? Huh? Seriously? Wouldn't it have saved the $5,000 in legal costs to just cut to the chase and go back to enforcing the original document anyway? Again, little johnny fails to grasp the issue.

>>So I have to ask IF OUT is the big winner here, as Freddy likes to suggest why does she continue to come to this site defending her actions?
>>Isn't victory enough. Or is it necessary for OUT to convince total strangers she in fact did the right thing? Why would that even matter?

Actually, and this is something you have no clue on because it requires character and integrity, things which you are obviously lacking, Out came back to give status of how it turned out and to close the loop.

>>Freddy your opinion of OUT does not jive with those who live in her community. Does that make YOU even wonder? Of course not!
Actually, little johnny boy, it matters not. Much like you. Your just a bug or a worm.

>>And just so you know, not everyone that resides in NY state lives in NYC. New York State is a big area.
>>Something I am sure difficult for you to grasp especially when hurling insults is your motivation.

Actually, the whole state is legendary for graft and corruption with a high concentration in NYC. I am quite familiar with first hand experience in NY state and in NYC so I can speak about it from first hand experience.



Have you checked with your realter I lowered you home value this morning!
Oh you're so funny. Like I said, you amuse me a great deal and are always good for a laugh!!!



MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/22/2013 12:33 PM  
Fred,

Please accept my deepest regrets for disputing you. You are absolutely right on every point. I am not just saying that because someone advised me not to provoke the mentally ill. No siree Bob! I really mean it. I swear I do.
JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 12:44 PM  
Posted By FredO on 07/22/2013 10:54 AM
Posted By JonD1 on 07/22/2013 8:59 AM
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 8:21 AM
Yuk,

What a nasty piece of work!

But what an excellent example of why HOAs, run by a bunch of volunteer "dim bulbed Jonnies" are such a BAD idea.




After 10 years of failing to accomplish anything on your own property Mike all you have left is to offer your opinions to others in the hope they can and will do what you can't.

All you have left is barking at the moon selling to those limited folks the idea that YOU are the Shell Answer Man when it comes to HOAs. Just what are your credentials for claiming such a role? FAILURE?

Have you seen this link..... have you watched this video......have you read this case.....
Yes all HOAs are being "smacked down" and will be gone in 20 years because MIKE says so.


How about YOUR personal battle with YOUR HOA. How goes the war oh mighty one.
What is it 0-5. Have you taken away the Board members homes as you promised? Have you taken away the Board's right to issue fines like in Va.? Which never actually happened. Have you imposed new laws governing HOAs in Ma. as you suggested? Well no.

But what you did do was buy a second HOA property in Florida. Now you understood that was a horrible move and you hated the place but since you could not find another property in the state outside an HOA you had to do so. That rings true.

Then you report you sold the property at a nice profit! How did that happen? How could a property in an HOA increase in value? Not possible right????

And you sold this property to some unsuspecting schmuck without you warning them what they were buying? Did you not provide them with links to show how bad HOAs are? How about copies of all your suggestions NEVER to purchase property in an HOA? Did you provide those to the new owner? Of course not.

If you really had any principles or true convictions just how could you do that? I thought you lived to help others? To protect others. Or just not those who are buying YOUR property?

I got it...... Another real hero.....








Actually johnny, it sounds like he sold it to a relative of yours ...... schmuck that's you, right...





Isn't that cute. Freddy is coming to defend another of his heros Crazy Mike.

Birds of a feather flock together..........

Yes Freddy go sit on Mike's lap that role seems to suit you just fine..
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 1:10 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 11:26 AM
Hi Fred,

No I haven't sold my home, and our case in now before the Mass. Supreme Court.

Buffoon man has no idea what he is talking about (big surprise) and our case is still alive and well.

I am also trying to strip from these organizations the power to fine.

Wouldn't that be a hoot, for our association attorney to lose this sure fire money maker for his bottom feeding buddies,

to a pro-se guy.... for an ENTIRE state!

Who knows, maybe it will be like that gay marriage case here in MA....it started a chain reaction throughout the country!




Mike,

While I fully appreciate what you're doing and understand the reasons for it, I can say after living in 3 HOA's here in Calif that I also appreciate the intent of the HOA's .

In my current HOA, we have a 7 member board of directors (2 year alternating terms - 3 elected in even number years and 4 elected in odd number years).
I have seen some great people join and work on the board. The problem in my particular HOA is that there has been a majority lock on director positions where these board members have bought votes (through issuing variances and with selective enforcement of the rules).

The time has changed last year and this year when enough of the fence sitters got their eyes opened to politics in our HOA. The new blood on the Board is starting to right the wrongs and bring a level of fairness to issues not seen in years.

This leads me to believe that not all HOA's are bad, evil things that have to be destroyed.

The problem is people like JonD1 and others who let their board position go to their heads and try to play Lord and master over the estate. When you have small brained, un-trained, non-professional people with large Napoleon complexes, they tend to use (or rather Mis-use) this power over others. It seems they almost get drunk with power and once tasting of it, they don't want to let it go.

I actually like my HOA and the vast majority of my neighbors. I dislike bullies and will do my best to call them out for it. Much like my back and forth with JohnD1. He is nothing more than a bully who has been in the HOA leadership for just too darn long. It has clearly affected his ability to be objective.

I know you want to abolish HOA's. I don't know the laws regarding HOA's in Mass or Florida or anywhere outside California for that matter. I don't proclaim to.
I do know the laws and specifically the Davis-Sterling Act here in California.

That document is not worth the paper it is printed on. While they set out to do some major good with the document, the laws did not spell out any consequences for the HOA's or Board members (personally) or even Mgmt companies for NOT abiding by the laws set forth in the Act.

There is no enforcement provision other than to take the HOA to civil court. And even then, there is no guarantee of prevailing.

The one thing that this forum does not do, is to preach what should be proper behavior by Directors and Boards to their membership. For the Most part, all I see on this forum is gang up and pile on's of people who happen across this forum looking for advice.

This forum is for Directors and officers of HOA Boards. So, it is pretty blatant to see the circling of wagons and a small yet vocal minority of "group thinkers" who are anti-Member and pro-Boards. This is sad because all Officers and Board Directors are members also.

For all the readers and advice givers like JonD1, you have to know, or at least have a good idea, that when newcomers who are not Directors/Officers come to this site, it is from doing research because they are fed up and looking for answers to their situation. I would hazard a guess and say that most, if not all "OP's" are highly, emotionally invested in their issue.

Instead of berating them and haranguing them, they (the JonD1's of this forum) ought to take a step back and be a little respectful. I see many who practice this (Thanks to them!) I also see the bullies come out (all too often).

This is probably the same make up, percentage wise, that you find in any HOA membership (Some bullies, some nice folks and some who just watch and dare not get involved).

The HOA itself is not bad, it is the people who make it bad.

JonD1 might actually have some good advice if he didn't ruin it by being such an ASS.

In closing, I have seen my HOA go from a horrible place to a fantastic place all by changing out the few people on the board who think your business is their business and they want to tell you how to live above and beyond what the governing documents state.

FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 1:20 PM  
Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/22/2013 12:33 PM
Fred,

Please accept my deepest regrets for disputing you. You are absolutely right on every point. I am not just saying that because someone advised me not to provoke the mentally ill. No siree Bob! I really mean it. I swear I do.




me thinks you have been out in the Arizona sun way too long. Or, are you just another wannabe bully licking pathetically trying to curry favor from little johnny boy?
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 1:36 PM  

Isn't that cute. Freddy is coming to defend another of his heros Crazy Mike.

Birds of a feather flock together..........

Yes Freddy go sit on Mike's lap that role seems to suit you just fine..




Actually Johnny boy, I have never come to the defense of MikeR. He does not need me to defend him. I enjoy reading your posts and rebuttals to each other.

I view that MikeR has some valid points. I do not agree with all he says, but some of it is spot on. Same as you, I don't agree with much of what you say, but every now and then you have a moment of clarity (must be when you renew your meds).

All that matters is what's in the contract. Both parties must abide by it. Often times HOA boards drift from following this contract because of the untrained, non-professional, ego inflated, power tripping people with Napoleon complexes who think they have the power and their will is the law.

I expect more from the board than that. I expect that they should have read and understand the governing documents and can apply them fairly and equally across the HOA and its membership.

How many of the issues here are the result of the board taking too much power or changing things outside the legal process?

The difference between you and I JonD1 is that if you were on the side of the road needing help, and I knew who you were, I would still stop to help you.
Being who and what you are, I know you would not stop to help anyone in the same situation. It's about Character & integrity, things that you lack.


JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 2:56 PM  
Posted By FredO on 07/22/2013 1:36 PM

Isn't that cute. Freddy is coming to defend another of his heros Crazy Mike.

Birds of a feather flock together..........

Yes Freddy go sit on Mike's lap that role seems to suit you just fine..




Actually Johnny boy, I have never come to the defense of MikeR. He does not need me to defend him. I enjoy reading your posts and rebuttals to each other.

I view that MikeR has some valid points. I do not agree with all he says, but some of it is spot on. Same as you, I don't agree with much of what you say, but every now and then you have a moment of clarity (must be when you renew your meds).

All that matters is what's in the contract. Both parties must abide by it. Often times HOA boards drift from following this contract because of the untrained, non-professional, ego inflated, power tripping people with Napoleon complexes who think they have the power and their will is the law.

I expect more from the board than that. I expect that they should have read and understand the governing documents and can apply them fairly and equally across the HOA and its membership.

How many of the issues here are the result of the board taking too much power or changing things outside the legal process?

The difference between you and I JonD1 is that if you were on the side of the road needing help, and I knew who you were, I would still stop to help you.
Being who and what you are, I know you would not stop to help anyone in the same situation. It's about Character & integrity, things that you lack.







Freddy Freddy Freddy you seem to have lots in common with your new BFF Mike you both ramble on about how things are when in fact your claims are not based on anything more than the hot air coming from your mouth.

Just because YOU claim that YOU possess "character & integrity" simply does not make it so. Hard to be objective when it comes to pumping yourself up. Especially for you.

So it sounds like both you and Mike choose to lead from afar. Your claim to the vast understanding for HOAs is based on you having lived in 3 of them. Under those qualifications EVERYONE is an expert. Like you Mike has never served on a Board heck he can't be bothered participating. Hell "he can't stand to even see his neighbors!" So Freddy and Mike decide how things should be done or how they would do things knowing full well the day they serve in their communities will NEVER come.

And your little speech about how well some people in your community are operating YOUR own HOA while you sit back and offer your opinions on interent sites, well that might put a strain on the Bro-Mance you and Mike have begun. Because in Mike's world that is an impossibility. So either one of you is wrong or both of you are simply confused.

I get a kick out of how both you and Mike like to use terms suggestiung how you both kick ass, slap people down, and in general terms two plain old bad asses. Mike is so bad in 10 years he can't get over on some part time volunteer Board members. And you Freddy you come to a site designed for those who actually serve their communities attempting to pass off some knowledge you have gained without ever having participated. Yes, you and Mike are cut from the same cloth. Windbags who do nothing and then try to convince others and themsleves THEY know.

Doesn't matter Freddy what decade you were born in each has its fair share of limited folks who can't put two and two together successfully.
You would be one of those.

So keep passing off your opinions as facts. Keep twisiting the little you know to suit your views. And keep telling yourself you have played some role in getting anything done.

And I doubt when pressed if you could find NY on a map. Hell I wonder how you make it home at night................



EricH8


Posts:0


07/22/2013 3:02 PM  
Early in this topic, I checked the box that said "Check this if you would like to be notified when someone replies" I'm posting again because I don't see another way to unsubscribe. I hope this new Subscribe preference overrides the previous Subscribe preference. Too many e-mails!
MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/22/2013 3:39 PM  
Posted By FredO on 07/22/2013 1:20 PM
Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/22/2013 12:33 PM
Fred,

Please accept my deepest regrets for disputing you. You are absolutely right on every point. I am not just saying that because someone advised me not to provoke the mentally ill. No siree Bob! I really mean it. I swear I do.




me thinks you have been out in the Arizona sun way too long. Or, are you just another wannabe bully licking pathetically trying to curry favor from little johnny boy?



So are you now arguing with me because I admitted that you are right?
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 4:21 PM  
Fred,

You say:

"The HOA itself is not bad, it is the people who make it bad."

Do you know that is exactly what they used to say about the Soviet Union?

I am not kidding.

Some of the most brilliant people in the country in the 1920o' and 30's (and even latter) used to think that communism was

the greatest thing, if only they could get the “right” people to run it.

Instead Lenin gave way to Joseph Stalin, the paranoid schizophrenic mass murderer ..

And the bodies piled up in the Ukraine and in the basement of the Lubyanka and in the Gulags..

People are NOT CAPABLE of wielding the kind of power where there are no constraints on that power.

It will NEVER happen.

And with the way HOAs are structured now, your wonderful HOA is just one election (rigged or otherwise) away from disaster.

And I could care less if HOAs continue. What I am certain of is that in order to function even half way decently

a HOA board needs to be limited in their power...to an executive function only with real checks and balances on

virtually everything they do (other than cut the grass).

Neutered and defanged they can "volunteer" all they want. Heck I probably would join in at that point.

But one other absolute truth about human beings, is that this kind of power is NEVER given up without serious problems.

It is that drawn out/tiresome thing that is playing out right now...being fought tooth and nail by that bottom

feeding, preditory "industry" with their lobbying efforts (the 57 chapters of the CAI).

This blog has a few HOA "volunteers" who jealously guard their power in their irrational angry way, but they mean nothing in

the big scheme of things. They are simply dupes for the industry of service providers who are making all the money.


FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/22/2013 4:34 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/22/2013 2:56 PM
Posted By FredO on 07/22/2013 1:36 PM

Freddy Freddy Freddy you seem to have lots in common with your new BFF Mike you both ramble on about how things are when in fact your claims are not based on anything more than the hot air coming from your mouth.

Just because YOU claim that YOU possess "character & integrity" simply does not make it so. Hard to be objective when it comes to pumping yourself up. Especially for you.

So it sounds like both you and Mike choose to lead from afar. Your claim to the vast understanding for HOAs is based on you having lived in 3 of them. Under those qualifications EVERYONE is an expert. Like you Mike has never served on a Board heck he can't be bothered participating. Hell "he can't stand to even see his neighbors!" So Freddy and Mike decide how things should be done or how they would do things knowing full well the day they serve in their communities will NEVER come.

And your little speech about how well some people in your community are operating YOUR own HOA while you sit back and offer your opinions on interent sites, well that might put a strain on the Bro-Mance you and Mike have begun. Because in Mike's world that is an impossibility. So either one of you is wrong or both of you are simply confused.

I get a kick out of how both you and Mike like to use terms suggestiung how you both kick ass, slap people down, and in general terms two plain old bad asses. Mike is so bad in 10 years he can't get over on some part time volunteer Board members. And you Freddy you come to a site designed for those who actually serve their communities attempting to pass off some knowledge you have gained without ever having participated. Yes, you and Mike are cut from the same cloth. Windbags who do nothing and then try to convince others and themsleves THEY know.

Doesn't matter Freddy what decade you were born in each has its fair share of limited folks who can't put two and two together successfully.
You would be one of those.

So keep passing off your opinions as facts. Keep twisiting the little you know to suit your views. And keep telling yourself you have played some role in getting anything done.

And I doubt when pressed if you could find NY on a map. Hell I wonder how you make it home at night................




The only claim I am making is that you're an ass and a moron in my opinion and have the IQ of a worm. That about sums it up. And yes, I will also make the claim that you are not a person of character or Integrity and that is something I do know quite a lot about.

I have served on all the boards of the three HOA's I have lived in. It does not make me an expert by any means but I can tell a good board from a bad one and based on your psychotic ranting all of us are glad that you are in NY.

Nice how you can claim that I am just sitting back and letting others do the work in my HOA. How did you reach that conclusion? Did you look into your fogged up crystal ball?

Just keep on going about being the little johnny-boy that you are. Some day, you might grow up or mature a little bit. But no matter what, you'll still be the hollow shell of an impotent little man who has to come on this forum to try and show everyone what a man you are....

Unfortunately, I am all too well acquainted with NY and can even locate it on a map. As much as I wish I didn't have to.
And about finding my way home from work, well at least I have a real job instead of like you sitting on the couch all day watching Opra and trying to be an internet tough guy.

Your latest psycho ramblings are too funny to read anymore. Don't go away mad, just, ah, go away!



MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 4:48 PM  
Fred,

I don't even read that guys stuff anymore. Really, a few words and that is all I can take.

But can you imagine the nightmare his HOA was when he was on the board?

These are exactly the folks we need to nueter and defang. They can go back to being the laughable angry old dude,

lurching at their neighbors like mental patients in an assless smocks.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/22/2013 5:24 PM  
Those assless smocks...they are called "Jonnies" aren't they....

ROFL!
JonD1


Posts:0


07/22/2013 5:29 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/22/2013 4:48 PM
Fred,

I don't even read that guys stuff anymore. Really, a few words and that is all I can take.

But can you imagine the nightmare his HOA was when he was on the board?

These are exactly the folks we need to nueter and defang. They can go back to being the laughable angry old dude,

lurching at their neighbors like mental patients in an assless smocks.





Mike my guess you won't be neutering or defanging anybody.

Just lots of hot air from a wind bag.

10 YEARS Mike and what do you have to show for all the effort?

A $50,000 legal bill and lots of posts attacking HOAs. And almost a dozen people who think like you. Well you can now add two more Fred the criminal law expert, and another gent from the corn belt both who talk the talk but can't seem to get the walk down.

If only hot air got things done.....

And I have pointed this out to you several times now what you do in your HOA has NO affect on me. Or most other HOAs around the country.

So before you now claim to have the power to influence the operations of HOAs in other states perhaps you should wait till you prevail in at least ONE of your complaints.

10 years and counting...... but someday Mike you might get to slap down somebody, somewhere other than in your mind and dreams....



MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/23/2013 4:55 AM  
Sorry Jonnie

I couldn't help myself. Folks like you just beg to be mocked.

But I should really try to be more mature.

ValerieS2
(Michigan)

Posts:244


07/23/2013 8:42 AM  
JOND1 - " A $50,000 legal bill and lots of posts attacking HOAs. And almost a dozen people who think like you. Well you can now add two more Fred the criminal law expert, and another gent from the corn belt both who talk the talk but can't seem to get the walk down."


Well, judging from the number of views this is getting, looks like plenty of folks are at least INTERESTED in what he has to say. Most don't and won't have the guts to speak up against the grain.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


07/23/2013 1:06 PM  
Valerie,

Spot on!

Mike is the 'Braveheart' of HOAs! I can hear him screaming "freedom".

You can not measure his impact on just the results of his own community, or even his own issue. It is folks like Mike who have started a voice that will not be drowned out. Look how many others do speak up now. People even start threads referring to him. That in itself is recognition that his words are causing some people, the rational ones, to at least give thought to his view.

Look at how few jumped on the thread about complimenting Boards. Momentum is building and we have to be honest, the folks across our nation like Mike who had the courage to speak out early deserve credit. It is much easier for people like myself to make a stand when you know you are not alone.

I have also watched how he conducts himself. His attacks are mainly aimed at Board/HOAs and their behaviors, not individuals. Contrast that to posters who always go into the mud at someone personally, each and every time they disagree.

BTW, I support term limits for any elected position within our country, including HOA Board members!
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/23/2013 4:46 PM  
FrankS10,

Well said. He does make you think. It is such a sad state when bullies start in on the personal attacks. I am guilty of it myself, so I admit on this subject I am a hypocrite. But, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Especially with some folks who just appear to be clueless on some subjects.

While it is true that suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors, the decision to go to court and not settle things is driven by the board of directors. Usually this is anywhere from 3 to 11 people (or more depending on the HOA) who as a group have decided it is better to go to court.

It is these decision makers who are costing their HOA's the money. Whether up front legal costs or in monetary decisions against the HOA.

I have not this this aspect of the equation addressed on this forum in any thread that I have read.

Instead I have heard the two mantras repeated over and over - yet they are conflicting and send what I think is a really wrong message.

The one poster who states this says:
"Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors" and then she turns around and says "Let the member sue the HOA for it is cheaper to counter-sue!"

Both statements are factually true but the message it sends is one of hostility. She is not saying; "If you're on a HOA Board, try to never get to the point where a member has to sue the HOA. It can always be worked out if you're willing to listen and understand the issue"

This advice is to let them sue then counter sue. I am still waiting to hear from this poster what exactly the HOA in OUT's case could counter sue for???
In this situation there is no counter suit whatsoever.

The ironic thing is that this poster says she sued her HOA.

In this case with Out, she did not cost the HOA a single penny. It was the combined brain trust of the 7 member board plus the HOA Attorney who made $5,000 in legal fees. How is this Out's fault. The bullies on the forum have yet to answer this question. The response from JonD1 is to change questions, and switch to personal attacks. real classy guy.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/23/2013 5:53 PM  
FredO,
The real problem is this:

When an HOA board goes off the reservation and does something illegal and harmful to a homeowner,

they risk nothing. They are covered by insurance, which has a duty to defend.

They are covered by D&O insurance that indemnifies them even if found liable.

Homeowners?

They have to let their fingers do the walking, find and attorney, mortgage their first born to pay them and go though the

emotional hell that litigation always extracts.

They are risking their financial well being and even their interest in their property.

When we confronted our HOA president (long gone now, found her co-board member husband screwing one of the neighbors wifes)

with a SIGNED contract from the HOA....which the HOA was now trying to "memory hole"....her response?

"Sue us, we have insurance"

She was pretty vile, (so I don't really blame her husband) and she certainly was not stupid.

She said it with a smile on her face. The slimy HOA attorney; I almost admire the way he responded to the ensuing lawsuit

without ever once refering to the actual contract that was being repudiated.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/23/2013 6:01 PM  
I think the Constitution refers to "equal protection under the law"

Another thing that is completely absent in HOA land.
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


07/23/2013 7:52 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/23/2013 5:53 PM
FredO,
The real problem is this:

When an HOA board goes off the reservation and does something illegal and harmful to a homeowner,

they risk nothing. They are covered by insurance, which has a duty to defend.

They are covered by D&O insurance that indemnifies them even if found liable.





Mike,

It does not always happen that way. We had a director who went way off the reservation. So much so, that the Insurance carrier refused to cover her.
There was too much evidence of her wrongdoing. The board quietly and quickly settled with the homeowner. The Director was forced to quit and is now selling her house and moving to order to pay the judgement against her.

Because this was a "willful" act the D & O insurance refused to cover. She tried to get her Homeowner policy to cover her in this instance and they also refused. I do not even know if the Homeowner policy would be able to cover it. All I heard was she was not covered by insurance and now has to sell her house to pay the settlement.

But according to people on this forum, this is all the Homeowner's fault and the homeowner caused themselves and their neighbors some money? Even though this was all based on the Director's actions.

Funny, the way some people think.


TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


07/23/2013 8:05 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/23/2013 6:01 PM
I think the Constitution refers to "equal protection under the law"

Another thing that is completely absent in HOA land.





Taken out of context.

The equal protection Mike refers to is located within the 14th amendment to the Constitution. That section of the amendment specifies that no State shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." An Association is not a State. It is a private organization that is typically also incorporated as a business entity. Therefore, technically, that section of the 14th amendment wouldn't apply. However, the State's contract law would apply and would of course be in compliance with the 14th amendment.

Contract law is what OutC used in her legal argument. The contract, in this case the CC&Rs, specified a cap on assessments and also specified that that cap could not be amended. Out pointed this out on the first page of this thread.

Since it's unusual for CC&Rs to contain a non-amendable section, this fact was likely overlooked by those who argued that costs change over time and that maintaining a cap on assessments doesn't pass the common sense test. As we all know, a dollar doesn't buy today what it did a year ago (much less 70 years ago).
Therefore, it wasn't a bad argument that assessments needed to change.

None of us saw the actual documents. Therefore, since we typically offer advice based on our experiences, and the typical experience is that Assessments go up when expenses go up, many offered that advice. Jon, using his personal style of conversation, pointed out that it's dangerous to go to court without someone versed in the legal profession (not impossible, just dangerous due to possible lack of knowledge on your part). Jon also pointed out the concern (to look at it from the Association point of view) of what happens if Out won her case and others demanded refunds for overpayment. Depending on the amounts, will the money be available or not (dealing with the reality of the consequence for collecting more than authorized, not the question if the collection was authorized).

In general, it is also normal for posters to phrase questions or statements to solicit an answer that they want to hear. I don't think that it's intentional, I think it's based on perception of the issue. This is why Glen had pointed out there are typically three sides to every story: your side, their side and the truth. Perhaps this, along with a document that isn't typical to most Associations, caused many (including myself) to question the validity of Out's initial statements. That of course can be a perceptional issue on our part.

Now if we ignore the 3+ pages of personal attacks between various members, it appears (based on the judges ruling) that the facts of the issue supported Out's position. Regardless of the ruling, the advice from others wasn't necessarily wrong. It's just offered from a different perspective of the issue.

We all know that it's true that costs increase every year. Therefore, this cap may or may not become an issue in Out's Association in the future. There is likely a concern within Out's Board right now on how will they pay back others who may bring similar action. Hopefully there is discussion going on that they need to step up and make such arrangements. Unfortunately, I've heard of many individuals that don't accept the facts of the issue and learn from their mistakes.


Personally, I think that the "this for that" personal attacks that has been going on in many of these threads cheapen the advice and opinions offered. If someone makes an unsupported statement or incorrect statement, then it should certainly be pointed so the poster has an opportunity to provide the basis for their opinion/advice as this allows the reader may make an informed decision as to what they should do to address their issue. I just don't understand why it can't be done in a civil tone.



Out,

If you don't mind, could you provide the language of the amendment (removing references to the name of the Association) you used. This way others can better understand the issue.

I would also suggest that you offer your name again to serve on the Board. If elected, you will be able to make sure that the needed discussions take place and, hopefully, change the way the Association does business.

Tim









GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


07/23/2013 10:51 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/23/2013 8:05 PM
We all know that it's true that costs increase every year. Therefore, this cap may or may not become an issue in Out's Association in the future. There is likely a concern within Out's Board right now on how will they pay back others who may bring similar action. Hopefully there is discussion going on that they need to step up and make such arrangements. Unfortunately, I've heard of many individuals that don't accept the facts of the issue and learn from their mistakes.



Tim as you say we don't have access to her documents. I wonder if they have the power to hold a Special Assessment, that way they could SA for the amount they have to pay back and call it even? Or they could hold a bake sale.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 3:38 AM  
Every letter sent out threatening someone over a garbage can..

Every "violation cop" cruising your home slowely like the KGB...

Every struting peacock of a BOD member immune to the above, but with the power (freely used, and egged on by the self

serving HOA "service provider") to TAKE YOUR SAVINGS AND EVEN YOUR HOME over this or more arbitrary crap...

Is like a slap in the face to homeowners; it is NEVER forgoten or forgiven.

It is a cumulative and corrosive cancer on the spirit of "community" that SOME people, myself included, value most

about "community"...far above freaking garbage cans...

HOAs are a failed experiment in how Americans live. ZERO people show up at your meetings NOT because they are in any way

apathetic about their most valuable investment and the place they call their home.

They don't show up because they WANT NOTHING TO DO with this HOA business, which has come to resemble some

vile facist state, rather than anything Americans should expect from this wonderful country of ours.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


07/24/2013 3:48 AM  
Mike,

My experience with my Association (even when I was fighting with them) did not give the same perspective as your experiences did with your Association. Because of your experiences, I do understand why you have the beliefs you do. If I were in your Association, I may or may not have that same belief.

Therefore, the best you and I can do is, as I've said in the past, agree to disagree when you paint all Associations and Board members with the same brush.


JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


07/24/2013 4:08 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/24/2013 3:48 AM
Mike,

My experience with my Association (even when I was fighting with them) did not give the same perspective as your experiences did with your Association. Because of your experiences, I do understand why you have the beliefs you do. If I were in your Association, I may or may not have that same belief.

Therefore, the best you and I can do is, as I've said in the past, agree to disagree when you paint all Associations and Board members with the same brush.







Well said.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 4:33 AM  
Actually that "cumulative and corrosive" businss was 'borrowed' from a guy in PA who was the Tresurer of his HOA.

http://www.ccfj.net/CIDpositionstatement.htm

This is hardly my "personal" view, but a more and more common appraisel of what is going on in property ownership in this country.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 4:43 AM  
Which could easily be solved if we impose a "seperation of powers" scheme on HOAs.

This is bedrock principle in any 'governmental' entity.

It is absurd to give so much power to ANYONE, much less by defintion, unqualified amatuer volunteers.

It so basely serves the preditory businesses that has their sights on our savings and equity, and so clearly harms

10's of thousands of people a year...

Are we really so obtuse about this?

Is BOD power that seductive that we throw our neighbors under the bus to maintain it?

Well the writing is on the wall. HOAs will be dealt with at some point.

Their power will be limited, and REAL law enforcement will be charged with ENFORCING the law.

It is absurd that homeowners have to rise to this level of effort (see above: Suing my HOA) simply to assert their rights.
JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 6:19 AM  
As Mike likes to live in the world of his own making I thought I might add some reality.

Not that Mike might ever consider it, he is to far gone, but perhaps some others might understand the demons Mike claims are not as he suggests.

Recently, we eneded our fiscal year. The monthly report details the YTD totals in all areas of the property's operation.

One line item was the amount we collected in fines.

Now we have 130+ units.

And over a 12 month period we collected the huge sum of $2,800.

Our budget is just under $400,000 per year so this windfall of fines we issued does little to our bottom line.

Now for some numbers. Hopefully, with some help Mike, and others can follow along.

Our fine structure calls for a initial fine of $100 after of course a warning. Simple math would tell us in this case we issued perhaps 28 fines. I say perhaps because our fine amounts increase if the violations continue up to $300. So in fact we probably issued less than 28 fines over 12 MONTHS with 130+ units.

Now in many cases some units recieved multiple fines so in that case they would account for many of the toal amount.

Now we had one young man who decided it was best to have some friends over at 12:30 AM and hold a paint ball encounter in the parking lots of the property. Running around at night with what appeared to be rifles and masks on spraying paint balls on the property and on vehicles. Now being the rotten SOBs were all are we fined them. In the world where Mike likes to live you would need to be an EXPERT, professional to make such a decision. Here we can handle it. Perhaps Mike's limitations would prevent him from doing so.

Another resident decided to drive his car onto the lawn area around our pool and then exit onto the roadway. Again, in a move that clearly violated HIS Constitutional Rights and his God given Rights to behave like an ass we fined him and backcharged his unit to cover the costs. Better we thought HE pay those costs than the other residents. Mike would have this matter go to the police, the DA and the courts to be resolved.

And last but not least we had a couple whose marriage is less than ideal. They engage in fights, conflicts and confrontations. To the point the husband broke out the window to their bedroom when she locked him out. Now in the real world after the police handled the matter we thought best to issue fines becuase silly us we think the other residents have the right to a good night's sleep without the police and breaking glass. And as the police did nothing other than issue a warning hard to see how this behavior might be controlled without our ability to issue fines.

So those of some of the folks we have abused. Some who we mistreated. Some who Mike fails to understand need to be dealt with or the property and those who live here suffer.

So we had no more than 28 fines over 12 months and probably quite few less as I have explained.

That's the real world. Not the life or death battle Mike would have you beleive exists on every HOA.

And as mentioned when issues like this arise WHO do the residents expect should handle this????????? Not people like Mike with his simplemended nonsense but rather the Board members and MC.

But in LA LA LAND where Mike now lives it should be done HIS way....





FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


07/24/2013 6:28 AM  
I don't believe anyone here has ever claimed that their own experiences are reflective of all HOAs. OTH, those of you who conduct your HOA's business with sound Common Sense principles should not assume all other HOAs/Board members operate in the same manner.

By each of us bringing our varying experiences to this site, hopefully we can learn what works in other communities and try to convince enough people in our own communities to apply some of the 'Best Practices' we glean here.

I do have a concern when an admitted Board member "targets" another individual for criticism-whether it is warranted or not. I assume they will operate the same way in dealing with HOA members. Admittedly I am no leader, but I do have the expectation from those that do accept the privilege of leading to conduct themselves more honorably than any one else.

Some of the posters here are certainly strengthening my personal conviction that Board members need to be watched closely, very closely.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 6:56 AM  
And that is exactly the point.

Why 'watch' anyone?

Do we have to 'watch' our politicians, or does the FBI put the bad ones in jail

(Great pic of MA state rep. stuffing bribe money in her underwear, courtesy of the FBI)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444666,00.html

Why not just set up a system of checks and balances, laws and ENFORCEMENT...and the problem would largely be solved.

And that is where it gets downright creepy.

The HOA service providers FEAR democratic HOAs, and spend quite a bit of money to maintain the status quo with their 57 Legislative Action Committess across the country.

As a result, there is little to no oversight, and ZERO enforcement of the few laws that do attempt to provide consumer protection in HOAs.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 10:04 AM  
And the corrupt public official?

She faces up to 20 years in jail, and fines of $250,000!

What do these HOA morons get for violating their trust with homeowners?

Not much.

Homeowners are advised by the Attorney General to go get a lawyer and sue them in civil court!

JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 10:17 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/24/2013 10:04 AM
And the corrupt public official?

She faces up to 20 years in jail, and fines of $250,000!

What do these HOA morons get for violating their trust with homeowners?

Not much.

Homeowners are advised by the Attorney General to go get a lawyer and sue them in civil court!






Isn't it interesting yesterday in one of his rants Mike suggested to a poster here that they.

Contact the Attroney General's office and report FRAUD! Because Mike says there is FRAUD.

Now one day later Mike explains that in fact the AG will NOT involve themselves in such matters and suggest it is a civil mater and they need to get a lawyer.

So then which is it???? Mike being the legal guru and all????

Mike mentioned you can get a lawyer for FREE to represent them. PLease let me know where that has happened? Please give me some names other then some fruit loop yo-yos Mike finds over the internet.

Then Mike suggested you can go to the DA as long as you mention the word FRAUD. The magic word Mike would have you beleive gets results. Not going to happen.

So be careful when you think about taking legal advice from a fool. It changes day to day and on either day it is wrong.

JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 10:20 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 07/24/2013 6:28 AM
I don't believe anyone here has ever claimed that their own experiences are reflective of all HOAs. OTH, those of you who conduct your HOA's business with sound Common Sense principles should not assume all other HOAs/Board members operate in the same manner.

By each of us bringing our varying experiences to this site, hopefully we can learn what works in other communities and try to convince enough people in our own communities to apply some of the 'Best Practices' we glean here.

I do have a concern when an admitted Board member "targets" another individual for criticism-whether it is warranted or not. I assume they will operate the same way in dealing with HOA members. Admittedly I am no leader, but I do have the expectation from those that do accept the privilege of leading to conduct themselves more honorably than any one else.

Some of the posters here are certainly strengthening my personal conviction that Board members need to be watched closely, very closely.




This coming from someone who views Mike to be the movie character "Baveheart".

Mike would remind me more of Mel Gibson the real life person.


TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


07/24/2013 10:39 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 07/24/2013 6:28 AM

By each of us bringing our varying experiences to this site, hopefully we can learn what works in other communities and try to convince enough people in our own communities to apply some of the 'Best Practices' we glean here.




And that, as I understand it, is the goal of HOATalk:

"A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn."
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


07/24/2013 10:57 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/24/2013 6:56 AM

Why not just set up a system of checks and balances, laws and ENFORCEMENT...and the problem would largely be solved.




Lets see, for most Associations it appears to work as follows:

Checks and balances are handled by the membership

Laws do exist: Contract law, Corporate law, HOA/COA laws, Federal regulations, HOPA, etc.

Enforcement: For checks and balances - done by the membership
For violations of law - well, this is also done by the membership who, if needed, bring the issues to the proper authority having jurisdiction (police for criminal violations and the courts for civil violations).


Does this solve the problem? Obviously not or there wouldn't be as many issues as there are.

There appears to be differing opinions on how to address the issues. Some recommend taking everything to court. Others recommend trying to resolve the issue internally (from compromise to voting the bums out of office). That's the real issue in my opinion, the difference of opinion on how to address the issue. No doubt that some issues will require legal intervention while other issues are best resolved internally.

Of course, even if there was heavy Federal/State regulation, it would be the responsibility of the members to bring the issue to the attention of the proper authority. Therefore, the bottom line is that it's the membership that provides the checks and balances.

Therefore, if the members, either through apathy or by a conscious choice, do not involve themselves in the running of the association (at the very least by attending the annual meeting and casting a vote) the checks and balances are no longer there and those who have caused the problem are allowed to remain in a position to continue to cause problems.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 11:03 AM  
An example of a 'free' attorney in the best law firm in Boston, slapping down a toileteer HOA law firm?

Sure!

Trustees of the Clarendon/Warren Condominium v. Jose A. Cotto

The HOA law firm had convinced a Superior court judge to SELL Mr. Cottos ( a low income resident of the condo) home to pay the $61,000 FINES...

FOR FEEDING THE BIRDS!

Wait...it gets better.

He was feeding the birds OFF CONDO PROPERTY!

This was so disgusting to the excellent law firm of WilmerHale that some junior associate, just out of law school,

went to the Appeals court and slapped the case out of existence (not to mention leaving his size 9 shoeprint on the HOA

attorneys ass).

Actually it gets even better...the HOA attorney responsible for this atrocity?

He is the co-chair of the Rhode Island Legislative Action committee for the CAI.

That someone like that is actually paying our legislature to pass law...what kind of slap do you need before you wake up?
JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 11:23 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/24/2013 10:39 AM
Posted By FrankS10 on 07/24/2013 6:28 AM

By each of us bringing our varying experiences to this site, hopefully we can learn what works in other communities and try to convince enough people in our own communities to apply some of the 'Best Practices' we glean here.




And that, as I understand it, is the goal of HOATalk:

"A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn."





Tim:

I would never think to question your thought process as it is both complete and educated however in this case I would suggest to you perhaps you omitted the most important portion of the guidelines set forth for this site

"A forum for Community Association Boards & Other Volunteers to discuss topics concerning their association duties"

Now to me that seems fairly clear, English, no real BIG words that might require a dictionary to understand for most.

Community Association Boards = HOA Board members
Association Duties = HOA Board member's Duties

So right off the bat that would eliminate Mike, Freddy and the man with the clean driving record!

It does not mention whining, or a place where people who are suing their own property, or perhaps a place where people who can't be bothered serving can come to tell everyone else how they should do things, or perhaps a place where those people who bought into a property without understanding what they bought can now change things to their liking with no regard for the other people living their, or a place where folks whose efforts to bad mouh HOAs can come to spew their nonsense after their own blog fell flat on its face.

But then if you can't understand the simply stated purpose of this site no surprising those limitaions extend to other areas where your understanding seriously lacks.

IF as some small minded folks suggest there is this great groundswell of anti-HOA across America there must be site for whiners, complainers, know nothings, and do nothings that Mike and others can visit.

Oh there's not. Mike started one, bragged about it over the internet and it flopped.

So you come to a site for postive HOA input and whine. Like little girls.
All the time telling yourself and others you are all big bad men! With charater and integrity no less. And slapping people down, hitting them with your bat and kicking ass and taking names. And once the developer lets you, you might get to sit on the Board! Wow....

Yes real live bad asses.........

I know girl scouts who would force folks like this to buy all their cookies!

So as they sit at home typing away about all they know and how they would do things, how they will change things the reality is they are nothing like that.

Not difficult for some people to figure out. Some people......





MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 12:05 PM  
You can hear the broken gears grinding around in there. What an ugly sound.

JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 12:21 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/24/2013 12:05 PM
You can hear the broken gears grinding around in there. What an ugly sound.






Mike how many folks have you slapped down today??

ZERO

Last week????

ZERO

Last 10 years?????

ZERO

I seem to see a trend here.

A lot of hot air but no any real substance.

And just so we all know posting repeatedly on the internet is NOT slapping folks down. If means little in the big picture.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 12:31 PM  
Give it a rest already you vile little man!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 1:30 PM  
Oh NO!

The California courts just ordered that the HOA MUST give equal access to the newsletter!

No more Pravda! (At least in California)

Why post here?

Obvioulsy because someone had to "Sue my HOA" (who fought tooth and nail) for the extrodinary "privledge" of making

the newsletter....worthy of the name news.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 1:32 PM  

Almost forgot to provide the citiation.

I looked for it and it was hiding in multitude of HOA attorneys BS treatment of the case.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/G046891.PDF

This is the courts decision, not the slobs who tried to prevent it from happening
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/24/2013 1:36 PM  
Ha!

Plaintifs even got their costs!

I think the courts might just be "getting it" in California
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