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Subject: Parking in the street
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RobertG12
(Arizona)

Posts:160


03/31/2009 3:13 PM  
Posted By MaryA1 on 03/31/2009 3:05 PM
Robert,

I do believe "wisdom of the legislature" is an oxymoron!



Way off topic, but according to Wiki Encyclopedia

"Oxymoron is a loanword from Greek oxy ("sharp" or "pointed") and moros ("dull"). Thus the word oxymoron is itself an oxymoron."

I would think pointed and dull are very good descriptors for our legislative body!!!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


03/31/2009 3:34 PM  
For the record, when a city tells you that they "won't enforce it", you should note that isn't the same as saying it can't be enforced.

Parking, via CC&R's, is part of a private contract between two parties, and lives in the civil courts jurisdiction. Cities won't enforce YOUR private contract for parking, any more than a city will enforce your private contract with an airline for lost luggage, a window seat, or your agreement to get a better seat at a Springsteen concert.

The enfocement comes through the same channels as the enforcement of any HOA rule/reg: whatever your CC&R's/bylaws/Charter allows you to do (fines, penalties, removal of membership privileges, etc.). Very likely, you can enforce your parking rules on city streets, through Civil Court and judgement.

But not via a police officer.
MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491


03/31/2009 4:21 PM  
Posted By RobertG12 on 03/31/2009 2:51 PM
I have seen too many local board members who are wannabe police or have grudges against neighbors that make me skeptical about HOA enforcement (IMHO).

I will let the wisdom of the legislature prevail.





"Grudge" or not, if it's already in the governing documents, then enforcing it is not "personal."

The violation of the CC&R exists whether the board "likes" the homeowner or not, so I don't see what the point of that comment is.

Whether a board member "wants" to be a police officer or not, if it's a violation per the association's documents, it's a violation. If your docs don't address parking then no amount of "grudginess" will give the board ability to smack-down someone who is not in violation.

And Brian is, again, dead on.

Our local police won't enforce our Deed Restrictions.

Nor should they. That responsibility is for the parties to the contract.

But, having said that, such restrictions written into the governing documents are enforceable by the association board members, barring any state or local law or statute that says otherwise. Even if they do happen to have a "grudge" against the violator.

MaryA1


Posts:0


04/01/2009 3:18 PM  
Robert,

"I would think pointed and dull are very good descriptors for our legislative body!!!"

Very good description of many of our legislators. I recall a local radio personality -- or perhaps an AZ Rep reporter (can't remember his name) who referred to our Legislators as the "90 dwarfs".
DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


04/01/2009 3:43 PM  
Remember that the legislature is an elected body.

Just like an HOA Board.
MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491


04/01/2009 5:34 PM  
Posted By DwightT on 04/01/2009 3:43 PM
Remember that the legislature is an elected body.

Just like an HOA Board.





::sigh::

Keep it up. Keep muddying the waters.


We elect board members at the company for which I work.

It's a Fortune 500 company.

A company (corporation, which MOST HOAs are) is NOT a governmental agency or governmental body.


Apples.

Oranges.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


04/02/2009 6:01 AM  
And what does any of that have to do with the price of eggs?

I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to post that. It has nothing to do with my statement that HOA Boards and state legislatures are both elected bodies. Members of both bodies (and the elected members of your company Board) can be replaced at the next election if the electorate is not satisfied with the way that they govern.

And BTW: according to The American Heritage Dictionary, the definitions of "Government", include:
* The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.

and
* Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.

So yes, an HOA Board is literally a governmental body (as is your company Board) in that they are responsible for the 'Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.'
MaryA1


Posts:0


04/02/2009 7:29 AM  
Dwight,

Don't get me started on the price of eggs! LOL

But, the point Michele is trying to get across -- and I agree with her -- is that HOA boards are not meant to "govern" in the way that government does! Even if "govern" is in the duties of the board it's not meant to be the same as a dictator governing or ruling over his subjects. Although some errant boards do adopt that type of policy and act as though they are despotic dictators. That is NOT what HOAs are meant to be like!!
DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


04/02/2009 8:31 AM  
Mary - I fully understand Michele's point. However I believe that she is railing against the wrong term. An HOA Board is definitely a governing body. However, the Association is not a political or state entity.
MaryA1


Posts:0


04/02/2009 1:26 PM  
Dwight,

I know some HOA advocates who think they are!
MaryA1


Posts:0


04/02/2009 1:30 PM  
Dwight,

Here's the rational of one such HOA advocate.


There was much debate by The Founding Fathers over the structure of the government being created under the US Constitution. Was it a democracy? A republic? Was it a federation with one sovereign over the states? The consensus seemed to settle as Alexander Hamilton wrote regarding a national bank,

The powers of sovereignty are in this country divided between the National and State Governments . . . . each of the portions of powers delegated to one or the other . . . is . . . sovereign with regard to its proper objects.

John Dickinson, representative from Delaware, offered that America

could not be safely and advantageously governed, but by a combination of republics, each retaining all the rights of supreme sovereignty, excepting such as ought to be contributed to the union.

Today, we are witness to the acceptance of the quiet emergence of a layer of independent republics as a third level of government in our American federation. This layer lies within each of the state republics and shares in the sovereignty of the people in the same manner as the federal-state co-sovereignty expressed above. Areas are carved out by means of a public-private partnership that utilizes restrictive covenants, which are permitted to supercede public laws and ordinances, to regulate and control the people within their territorial bounds. This layer, creating a New America, is referred to as homeowners associations.

I cannot understand why these states have not only permitted and agreed to the secession of independent HOA “principalities”, yet continue to argue over states rights with the federal government. On one hand the states are highly protective of their sovereign rights, their sovereign powers, yet they have no concerns over the surrender of these cherished powers to private “constitutions” created by profit motivated businesses. These broad powers fall under the classification of “police powers”, or the power to regulate and control the people for their health, safety, morals and welfare in addition to the punishment for crimes and the administration of justice.

Why have the states willingly allowed this new sub-layer of government, the HOAs, to yield many of these powers without oversight or providing for the protection of not only federal constitutional rights, but state constitutional rights as well? These HOAs, this new sub-state layer of republics, which do not have to be chartered under state municipality laws, truly operate as independent principalities.

Welcome to the New American federalism in support of sub-state HOA governments.

_______________________________________________________________
Author: Establishing the New HOA-land America - http://starman.com/starpub
HOAGOV on YouTube http://youtube.com/hoagov
George K. Staropoli
http://pvtgov.org


MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491


04/02/2009 6:35 PM  
Posted By DwightT on 04/02/2009 8:31 AM
Mary - I fully understand Michele's point. However I believe that she is railing against the wrong term. An HOA Board is definitely a governing body. However, the Association is not a political or state entity.





I will try to type slower.

Maybe it will help with the comprehension.

I didn't say they are not governing bodies (small 'g'); I said they are not government entities. (as in the big 'g').

I conceded it was a subtle difference, especially to wordsmiths and spin doctors. And I have no intention of arguing what the definition of "is" is.


The point I was trying to make, I'm absolutely convinced you comprehended, but prefer to get into hair splitting.

The point is in CONNOTATION that the BOARD or and HOA is somehow equivalent to a governmental agency or entity.

It's the old "us" against "them" warfield.

That somehow the board is in "power" as our governmental officials are.

That somehow the board members are no more powerful than each and every member, and IMMENSELY less powerful than ALL members, en masse.

But....again, continue muddying the waters, splitting hairs and mentally masterba... nevermind. ... I don't need to go there.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491


04/02/2009 6:36 PM  
Following is a correction to one of the sentences above:

We forget that board members are no more powerful than each and every member, and IMMENSELY less powerful than ALL members, en masse.
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