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Subject: CCR rule pertainant to CBU mailboxes ?
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TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/15/2018 11:02 AM  
Would the below CCR be germaine to the Board of Directors decision to switch from individual existing curbside mailbox delivery, (beginning of 2007) to CBU's placed in common areas throughout the master planned community.
( Without homeowner vote or approval)
( Not being mandated to switch by post office).

ARTICLE II

2. Owner's Property Rights

2.1 Owners' Easements of Enjoyment.

(g) The right of the Association to reconstruct, replace or refinish
any Improvement or portion thereof upon the Common Area or Association
Maintenance Areas in accordance with the original design, finish or standard of
construction of such improvement, or of the general Improvements within the
Properties, as the case may be; and if not in accordance with such original
design, finish or standard of construction only with the vote or written consent
of the Owners holding sixty-seven percent (67%) of the voting power of the
Association and the approval of the Beneficiaries of fifty-one percent (51%) of
the first Mortgages on Lots in the Properties who have requested the
Association in writing to notify them of proposed action requiring the consent of
specified percentage of first Mortgagees (subject to the procedures specified in
Section 15.5(e) below);
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7663


07/15/2018 4:08 PM  
We had to change our documents when we changed to separate water meters. So would not hurt to change for this change either. Conditions change.

Former HOA President
CarolF
(Florida)

Posts:406


07/15/2018 4:15 PM  
TN1 - are you certain that the US postal service didn't mandate this?
Can you tell us why you are certain that the Association instigated it?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/15/2018 11:33 PM  
I would contend not unless the original mailboxes were in Common Area or HOA Maintenance Area. Was the HOA responsible for maintaining and replacing the original mailboxes OR were the homeowner’s responsible???
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/16/2018 1:02 AM  
Currently the mailboxes are installed / mounted on T- Posts in groups ranging between 2 to 6
In the sidewalk greenbelt areas between the sidewalk and curb in front of single family homes within the HOA.
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/16/2018 1:05 AM  
The HOA is responsible for repair / replacement of the existing mailboxes.
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/16/2018 1:15 AM  
The Post office did not mandate the change. The board voted to have MC review for locking mailboxes. The postmaster pushed the idea of CBU's instead and the board voted 4 to 1 in favor of switching from individual curbside delivery, instead to CBU's in Common area's throughout the HOA community (17 CBU's which have 16 mail slots +2 parcial boxes on each CBU).
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/16/2018 10:04 AM  
I had a very similar situation last year with a HOA I manage. We had reported mail thief's from the non lockable curbside mailboxes that the HOA somehow was responsible for. I explored a program the USPS supposedly has to pay for CBU's and their installation. In my opinion and those of others, if the purpose is to provide mailboxes with security, not only for letter but also small packages delivered by USPS. It is a huge financial benefit to the post office and it is also ny tax dollars being wasted. People like to just walk to the end of their driveway to get the mail, I believe a little walking never hurt anyone.

Here is the problem that your community might be on the hook for. I know the cost of all the components, whether it be non-locking boxes to locked ones to CBU's and installation. Because of the cost to upgrade from non lock to locking or CBU would require a vote of the membership, as it would be classified a capital improvement.

I am guessing the project cost around $35,000 that would house about 272 unit that the cost exceeded the 5% of annual expense threshold.

Your CCRs passage wouldn't apply, IMHO, because you are upgrading something your HOA already is responsible for.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/16/2018 11:37 PM  
Posted By TN1 on 07/16/2018 1:05 AM
The HOA is responsible for repair / replacement of the existing mailboxes.


In which case the HOA BOD can potentially make changes for which they feel is in the best interest of the community.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/16/2018 11:49 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/16/2018 11:37 PM
Posted By TN1 on 07/16/2018 1:05 AM
The HOA is responsible for repair / replacement of the existing mailboxes.


In which case the HOA BOD can potentially make changes for which they feel is in the best interest of the community.



This is California, NO they can't.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/17/2018 12:36 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/16/2018 11:49 PM
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/16/2018 11:37 PM
Posted By TN1 on 07/16/2018 1:05 AM
The HOA is responsible for repair / replacement of the existing mailboxes.


In which case the HOA BOD can potentially make changes for which they feel is in the best interest of the community.



This is California, NO they can't.


Do you have that Statute Richard noting that the BOD who is responsible for repair and/or replacement of mailboxes DOES NOT have the authority to determine the mailboxes??? If as you state ... NO they can’t ... I would believe the OP and myself would need to know the reason.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/17/2018 6:47 AM  
Janet

You should read what others post!

It is called a capital improvement expenditure. You might want to do some research on the material. As you previously noted on another thread, this site lists the state in which the OP and poster are from. There are times when the person from within the state might have more expertise on the subject than someone from outside that state. It is also the reason I don;'t get up at 3:00 AM and post to every thread.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Capital-Improvement
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/17/2018 9:42 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2018 6:47 AM
Janet

You should read what others post!

It is called a capital improvement expenditure. You might want to do some research on the material. As you previously noted on another thread, this site lists the state in which the OP and poster are from. There are times when the person from within the state might have more expertise on the subject than someone from outside that state. It is also the reason I don;'t get up at 3:00 AM and post to every thread.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Capital-Improvement


Richard the following was the conversation to which you replied “NO they Can’t”. Then you turn around and are stating the SAME THING essentially which I stated and that if the mailboxes are owned and maintained by the HOA then YES the HOA could choose due to ... as you noted via “Capital Expenditures”. I am NOT the one who needs to READ!!! Maybe you should get up at 3:00 AM and have potentially TWO pots of coffee in order to unscramble your brain!

Posted By JanetB2 on 07/16/2018 11:37 PM
Posted By TN1 on 07/16/2018 1:05 AM
The HOA is responsible for repair / replacement of the existing mailboxes.


In which case the HOA BOD can potentially make changes for which they feel is in the best interest of the community.


I am starting to notice that your MO is potentially to attack everyone especially Melissa.


RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/17/2018 9:59 PM  
Janet,

AGAIN, please read the posts. NO, they can't, means the Board, on their own can't do it. It requires membership approval. If you had read the OP opening post, it was done without homeowner approval. Can the Board approve the cluster boxes, probably, but not the funding. Capital Improvements OVER 5% of the Annual Budgeted Expenses required a vote by secret ballot, typically 51% of the membership.

Sorry, not blowing it out my craphole (Mellisa's expression, not mine). This was a legal opinion from none other than the good folks at the law firm that operate www.davis-stirling.com
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/17/2018 10:20 PM  
Janet

I Let me explain it further so you understand. This is California, not Colorado.

90 individual detached homes. Mailboxes were responsibility of HOA (shouldn't have been) and were in reserves at $50.00 each (non-locking). We were going to put in 6 cluster boxes at $1800, including taxes and shipping. With installation, cost was $15K. They ending up going with locking curbside boxes at $100, plus $4500 installation, so total $13.5K

Since this was an upgrade and not required by local codes or anything, it became a capital improvement. Because the difference between the original and upgrade was over $9000.00 and was over the 5% of the $54K Annual Budgeted Expense or $2700.00, by law (§5605(b), it requires a secret ballot vote of the members, not a Board approval.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/17/2018 11:38 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2018 9:59 PM
Janet,

AGAIN, please read the posts. NO, they can't, means the Board, on their own can't do it. It requires membership approval. If you had read the OP opening post, it was done without homeowner approval. Can the Board approve the cluster boxes, probably, but not the funding. Capital Improvements OVER 5% of the Annual Budgeted Expenses required a vote by secret ballot, typically 51% of the membership.

Sorry, not blowing it out my craphole (Mellisa's expression, not mine). This was a legal opinion from none other than the good folks at the law firm that operate www.davis-stirling.com


I did read the OP’s opening post and why I initially stated needed membership approval ... until the OP to a question responded that the mailboxes were the HOA responsibility to maintain, which I then noted would be on the BOD to approve.
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/17/2018 11:45 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2018 10:20 PM
Janet

I Let me explain it further so you understand. This is California, not Colorado.

90 individual detached homes. Mailboxes were responsibility of HOA (shouldn't have been) and were in reserves at $50.00 each (non-locking). We were going to put in 6 cluster boxes at $1800, including taxes and shipping. With installation, cost was $15K. They ending up going with locking curbside boxes at $100, plus $4500 installation, so total $13.5K

Since this was an upgrade and not required by local codes or anything, it became a capital improvement. Because the difference between the original and upgrade was over $9000.00 and was over the 5% of the $54K Annual Budgeted Expense or $2700.00, by law (§5605(b), it requires a secret ballot vote of the members, not a Board approval.


DUH ... I know it is California. And now with your additional financial info which the OP has not provided ... are you the Management Company for.this HOA??? If so, then why did the homeowner’s not vote as potentially noted by the OP?
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/18/2018 7:50 AM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/17/2018 11:38 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2018 9:59 PM
Janet,

AGAIN, please read the posts. NO, they can't, means the Board, on their own can't do it. It requires membership approval. If you had read the OP opening post, it was done without homeowner approval. Can the Board approve the cluster boxes, probably, but not the funding. Capital Improvements OVER 5% of the Annual Budgeted Expenses required a vote by secret ballot, typically 51% of the membership.

Sorry, not blowing it out my craphole (Mellisa's expression, not mine). This was a legal opinion from none other than the good folks at the law firm that operate www.davis-stirling.com


I did read the OP’s opening post and why I initially stated needed membership approval ... until the OP to a question responded that the mailboxes were the HOA responsibility to maintain, which I then noted would be on the BOD to approve.


Just because the HOA is responsible to maintain, they can't just upgrade without a standard to follow. If they owned a Chevy Malibu and the reserves allocated replacement funds for that cars or price range, you can just say, hey, we have the money, let's go get a red BMW 750. There is a financial test that must be met.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/18/2018 7:56 AM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/17/2018 11:45 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 07/17/2018 10:20 PM
Janet

I Let me explain it further so you understand. This is California, not Colorado.

90 individual detached homes. Mailboxes were responsibility of HOA (shouldn't have been) and were in reserves at $50.00 each (non-locking). We were going to put in 6 cluster boxes at $1800, including taxes and shipping. With installation, cost was $15K. They ending up going with locking curbside boxes at $100, plus $4500 installation, so total $13.5K

Since this was an upgrade and not required by local codes or anything, it became a capital improvement. Because the difference between the original and upgrade was over $9000.00 and was over the 5% of the $54K Annual Budgeted Expense or $2700.00, by law (§5605(b), it requires a secret ballot vote of the members, not a Board approval.


DUH ... I know it is California. And now with your additional financial info which the OP has not provided ... are you the Management Company for.this HOA??? If so, then why did the homeowner’s not vote as potentially noted by the OP?



IF I were the management company, the members would have had a town hall meeting a vote. We don't know if a management company is involved. Why didn't the members vote? You would need to ask the Board that question.

The example was my own, from an HOA that did this last year. They wanted to do it without a member vote and I told them if they did they would need to find a new management company. My responsibility is to follow the law and keep my HOA's out of legal peril.
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/18/2018 12:59 PM  
Thank you all.
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/19/2018 4:09 AM  
TKS for the references.
1. Yes MC is involved. From what I can gather, they dropped the ball on this one.

2. No the association members were not orgiinaloy asked,. Not voted on by the members.

3. Was preposed by the Board President,. Passed 4 to 1 in favor of.

4. No Mention, thoughts of, or considerations as to even needing to be voted on by the members.
( Quite the opposite ) - BOD the (4) that voted yes were VERY Adamit,. No need for any approval no matter the cost.

5. Yes. The cost came to, brought it to well over the 105% overall for the yearly budget.

( Unless there's some obscure way of calculating the %).

TKS
MikeD17
(Texas)

Posts:2


07/27/2018 7:22 AM  
We had a similar issue in McKinney Texas, when I bought my new home in 2016. The post office mandated that all new communities had to switch to CBUs. Even though we already had pretty new mailboxes in front of our houses. The builders had to tear down all our mailboxes and put up the CBUs.
MikeD17
(Texas)

Posts:2


07/27/2018 7:24 AM  
We even made it on the local news about it...

https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/local/mckinney-homeowners-frustrated-over-lack-of-mail-delivery/258652358
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/27/2018 10:29 AM  
Posted By MikeD17 on 07/27/2018 7:22 AM
We had a similar issue in McKinney Texas, when I bought my new home in 2016. The post office mandated that all new communities had to switch to CBUs. Even though we already had pretty new mailboxes in front of our houses. The builders had to tear down all our mailboxes and put up the CBUs.



If I were running the Post Office, I would be looking to reducing my costs. This is one area where I would start first, knowing the actual savings.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3054


07/27/2018 10:40 AM  
Posted By TN1 on 07/19/2018 4:09 AM
TKS for the references.
1. Yes MC is involved. From what I can gather, they dropped the ball on this one.

2. No the association members were not orgiinaloy asked,. Not voted on by the members.

3. Was preposed by the Board President,. Passed 4 to 1 in favor of.

4. No Mention, thoughts of, or considerations as to even needing to be voted on by the members.
( Quite the opposite ) - BOD the (4) that voted yes were VERY Adamit,. No need for any approval no matter the cost.

5. Yes. The cost came to, brought it to well over the 105% overall for the yearly budget.

( Unless there's some obscure way of calculating the %).

TKS



Some easy math.

266 homes and old mailboxes cost $25.00 each equals $6650.00
CBU's cost $1500 each times 22 equals $33,000.

Concrete pads are $5000.00 and labor to install is $5000.00

That's would be $43,000.00. That would be a overage of $36350.00

Annual expenses, guessing, $450,000.00 and 5% would be $22,500.

You are over the limit by $14,000.00.

Any good PM or MC would know you need a member vote in California.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:502


07/28/2018 10:59 PM  
Posted By CarolF on 07/15/2018 4:15 PM
TN1 - are you certain that the US postal service didn't mandate this?
Can you tell us why you are certain that the Association instigated it?





I am going to guess the USPS mandated this, This was happening allot in Vegas when I first moved here, and I believe that the workload reduction by the mail carriers is tied to their union CBA collective bargaining agreement.
TN1
(California)

Posts:41


07/29/2018 2:02 AM  
Having been a former long time EBoard member of a Local American Federation of Gvmt. Emp.
(AFGE) collective barganning, (*not postal workers) that was directly involved with and dealt with Collective Bargaining Gvmt. Master Agreements, writing and negotions of Government employee Local Supplements between management and Locals representing Government employees, I can appreciate your post re. that possibility.

However in this situation, that did not come into play.

Postal workers in general don't seem to like CBU's and most postal workers claim the CBU's are actually inefficient and slow down their delivery of mail. They don't like CBU's.

Go figure,

Tks
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