GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:975
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| 12/14/2008 12:25 AM |
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Do any homeowners associations have any experience complying with this new requirement? Many of the 300,000 public pools and spas in the U.S. are required to close on December 19, 2008 according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) if they do not comply with the Virginia Graeme Baker Pool & Spa Safety Act .
The Act was named honoring Miss Baker, granddaughter of James Baker III, former U.S. Secretary of State, who died in 2002 when entrapped on a drain in a private in-ground spa.
The new federal law requires all public pools and spas, including those at community parks, YMCAs, apartments, condominiums, and other homeowner associations, waterparks, hotels, schools, and universities to be equipped with drain covers and other safety measures to prevent entrapment and evisceration. CPSC, the enforcing agency of the Act, may impose financial penalties and seek imprisonment for violators.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200806/ai_n27511266
http://www.nspf.com/Documents/CPSC_Articles/cpscSection1404.pdf
and
http://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/vgpsa.pdf
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/14/2008 12:46 AM |
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George,
Not that we can change in or mandate it, I would think this should catch some eyes. Could it be a simple fix or extensive and what physically has to be done. Do you object if I copy your post and send it to our Local Paper?
Might suggest that other posters might want to do the same. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/14/2008 6:55 AM |
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| We talked about this in a previous thread. Maybe someone will recall the title of the thread. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:975
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| 12/14/2008 7:30 AM |
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It was, indeed, discussed in August:
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/36499/Default.aspx
but the discussion never really went anywhere. I am interested to know what is/was/will be the result of associations complying with the requirement. Costly? Simple? Quick?
etc? etc?
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/14/2008 8:09 AM |
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George,
The link you provided pertained to "playground equipment"??? |
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RenaeW1
Posts:0
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| 12/14/2008 8:17 AM |
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Our pool maintenance company has gone to a series of workshops in Columbia, S.C. on this new law. Since our pool is an outside pool and is closed for the winter already, we still have some time; it has to be fixed before reopening this Spring. He thinks it will cost around $400 to fix our pool, as we already have some of the features that are required, such as two drains instead of just one. Of course, after he finishes the required workshops he may find out we need more and the cost could go up.
As a homeowner who has a child that swims in the pool, I feel this is long overdue and will be glad to pay whatever the cost. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:975
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| 12/14/2008 8:35 AM |
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Oops! Mea culpa:
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/52763/Default.aspx
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SheliaH
(Indiana)
Posts:373
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| 12/15/2008 9:38 AM |
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We have an old pool (the complex was built between 1972 and 1982) and while attending the annual meeting of the Central Indiana CAI, I spoke to a pool company rep (they used to care for ours until the price became unaffordable). He said the Marion county health department sent notices to HOAs and other organizations with public pools about the new law - some might not have seen them because they may have been placed in the pump area).
I was told some pools can comply with the law by installing some sort of drain cover, but there currently isn't one for our pool because of its age. Instead, we may have to purchase some sort of anti-entrapment device which is installed on the pump - if it detects something other than water coming in, the device shuts down the entire pump. This gizmo would cost about $1000, whereas a drain cover might cost under $150.
The vendor said there may be some companies that develop a cover for our type of pool next year. To play it safe, we budget $1500, but because of delinquences and the need for a new pool cover (which I discussed in another thread), we may have to postpone or cancel the pool season anyway.
Hope this helps a bit! I suppose the way to approach this is to talk to your current vendor to see what you need and then shop around for the best solution and price - double check with the health department (Health and Hospital in Marion county) to make sure you get the right thing. The health department will likely inspect the pool for compliance anyway before issuing a license. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1665
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| 12/15/2008 5:51 PM |
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I suspect that the device actually measures a combination of how much water is flowing and how much pressure is present. Should either go too far from normal (or change suddenly) the pump shuts off.
By the time a body part makes its way to the pump the damage is done.
As a note, I recall seeing something talking about cost versus benefit. Obviously they didn't talk tot he parents of the little girl who had her intestines sucked out and then living for a few weeks. |
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JS1
(Nevada)
Posts:30
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| 12/15/2008 9:57 PM |
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Please be sure to check with your local Health Department that regulates and inspects pools. The federal standards are the minimum. There are some counties that have more restrictive standards.
This is the information that was released today.
NEWS from CPSC
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
Office of Information and Public Affairs
Washington, DC 20207
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 15, 2008
Release #09-065
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
Pool And Spa Safety Law Aimed At Preventing Drain Entrapments of Children Goes Into Effect This Week:
Failure to comply with Congressionally-enacted law can result in closure
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is again reminding public pool and spa owners and operators nationwide that the Virginia Graeme Baker Pool and Spa Safety Act becomes effective on December 19, 2008. This law requires installation of anti-entrapment drain covers and other systems as outlined in the Act.
The Pool and Spa Safety Act was enacted by Congress and signed by President Bush on December 19, 2007, and is designed to prevent the tragic and hidden hazard of drain entrapments and eviscerations in pools and spas. Under the law, all public pools and spas must have ASME/ANSI A112.19.8-2007 compliant drain covers installed and a second anti-entrapment system installed, when there is only a single main drain. Congress gave all affected pool and spa operators one year to comply with this law.
Public pools and spas that operate year-round are expected to be in compliance by December 19, 2008. CPSC staff has taken the position that seasonal public pools and spas that are currently closed must be in compliance with the law on the day that they reopen in 2009.
"Our mission at the CPSC is to keep American families safe," said Nancy Nord, CPSC Acting Chairman. "CPSC will enforce the requirements of this pool and spa safety law with a focus on where the greatest risk of drain entrapment to children exists, such as wading pools, pools designed specifically for toddlers and young children, and in-ground spas, particularly where these types of pools and spas have flat drain grates and single main drain systems."
Nord added, "State health and enforcement agencies share the responsibility to ensure this law is properly enforced. I recommend these agencies take the same approach as CPSC concerning enforcement priorities."
Pool and spa operators are encouraged to continue working as diligently as possible to come into compliance, as the agency and state Attorneys General are empowered to close down any pool or spa that fails to meet the Act's requirements.
For more information about the Pool and Spa Safety Act, how to comply, and which companies have been certified to manufacturer drain covers and safety vacuum release systems, please log on to: www.cpsc.gov/whatsnew.html#pool
To see this release on CPSC's web site, please go to: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09065.html
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PeterB1
(Florida)
Posts:254
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| 12/16/2008 4:45 AM |
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Several months ago, we went to our pool service contractor and asked them to help. There is new drain cover available - but the part is on back-order. When the part becomes available (maybe mid-January) they will install it. Cost $250. That is the part plus installation. Rationale for the cost - it requires a diver to put it on (Florida).
Anyone else told there is a problem with the availability of this part? |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1665
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| 12/17/2008 5:02 PM |
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Several months ago, we went to our pool service contractor and asked them to help. There is new drain cover available - but the part is on back-order. When the part becomes available (maybe mid-January) they will install it. Cost $250. That is the part plus installation. Rationale for the cost - it requires a diver to put it on (Florida).
Anyone else told there is a problem with the availability of this part?
Well the cost is a great one. And if you can have a certified diver install it for that cost that is even better. I would have guessed that would be the cost after you drain the pool.
As for the availability, I am not surprised at all that it won't be available until January. Some are already scrambling to meet the deadline. And it will get worse before it gets better. |
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AlexL1
(Florida)
Posts:295
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| 12/18/2008 4:31 PM |
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| Renai: You mention having two drains... the law as I read it says the drains have to be minimum of 3 feet apart |
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AlexL1
(Florida)
Posts:295
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| 12/18/2008 4:34 PM |
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| I believe that we are planning to drain our pool because the water is in dire need of being changed and possibly lightly acid washed.... even though I detest acid washing... |
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RenaeW1
Posts:0
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| 12/18/2008 6:40 PM |
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Posted By AlexL1 on 12/18/2008 4:31 PM
Renai: You mention having two drains... the law as I read it says the drains have to be minimum of 3 feet apart
Hmmm... trying to visualize how far apart they are. The cover is on the pool or I would look. I'm thinking maybe 2-3 feet apart.
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/19/2008 5:53 AM |
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To all,
When this thread first appeared I cut and pasted some of the information, acknowledged is came from a HOA Talk site on the web and e-mailed it to my local paper. I suggested this was a pretty big story.
They never answered, which is fine with me, but this morning there is a front page story about these drains. Just wanted to point out, if my paper took my suggestion, that items posted here could be newsworthy fodder for local papers. Not that they were published on Hoatalk, but the subjects we sometime get into have widespread interest. Citing state laws and statutes or proposed legislation we hear of, or changes being made or considered in legislation by the various states might well interest the local media.
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AnnaD2
(Florida)
Posts:924
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| 12/19/2008 10:47 AM |
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| Just a question for thought......are swimming pools in condo associations considered "public"? We are a private community with no public access to our pool, at all. It can only be used by the private citizens who live here. Just wondering. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:975
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| 12/19/2008 10:53 AM |
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Posted By AnnaD2 on 12/19/2008 10:47 AM
Just a question for thought......are swimming pools in condo associations considered "public"? We are a private community with no public access to our pool, at all. It can only be used by the private citizens who live here. Just wondering. The answer is yes, condo pools are included in these regulations:A public pool or spa is defined as one that is either generally open to the public, or is open exclusively to any one of the following groups: members of an organization and their guests; residents of a multiunit apartment building, apartment complex, residential real estate development or other multifamily residential area; or patrons of a hotel or other public accommodations facility.
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RenaeW1
Posts:0
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| 12/19/2008 5:23 PM |
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Posted By RobertR1 on 12/19/2008 5:53 AM
To all,
When this thread first appeared I cut and pasted some of the information, acknowledged is came from a HOA Talk site on the web and e-mailed it to my local paper. I suggested this was a pretty big story.
They never answered, which is fine with me, but this morning there is a front page story about these drains. Just wanted to point out, if my paper took my suggestion, that items posted here could be newsworthy fodder for local papers. Not that they were published on Hoatalk, but the subjects we sometime get into have widespread interest. Citing state laws and statutes or proposed legislation we hear of, or changes being made or considered in legislation by the various states might well interest the local media.
I have seen this story on the national news stations also. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/19/2008 5:41 PM |
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Renae,
I supposed I could conclude that they picked it off the wire services and they probably did, but I also recently receive a thank you from my paper, which means thank you for thinking of us, I believe.
Anyhow,I was more concerned about the Local area being notidied of this problem than the National picture and the story reported had both local and Federal coverage. The problems we are having now and since most pools as defined by George in another post are closed right now, these problems of procurement of the covers is likely to be a big problem in the early spring. |
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JosephW
(Michigan)
Posts:879
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| 12/19/2008 6:12 PM |
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New story:
Coachella Valley pools stay open as new federal law takes effect
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20081219/NEWS01/812190314/1006/NEWS01
Local government said they didn't have the enforcement power - another wrinkle.
Joe |
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Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
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DavidW5
(Virginia)
Posts:334
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| 12/19/2008 7:04 PM |
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Yesterday I went to our HOA clubhouse to use the indoor spa and swimming pool. The spa was empty and our pool management company was installing the new drain covers. Today the HOA sent an email to all homeowners stating that the spa would be closed indefinitely until it could be brought into compliance with the law. When I called the clubhouse to ask about this I was told that when the old drain covers were removed, it was determined that the drain pump was too close to the drain to meet the requirements of the law. The pool management company has submitted a proposal to the Board for the necessary modifications. I suspect that might involve excavation and pouring of concrete which will be both expensive and time consuming.
I wonder why they waited until the very last day to attempt to comply with the law. I also wonder whether these delays could have been avoided if the developer had provided "as built" drawings that had been repeatedly requested by the HOA. Just another example of poor management of the association. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3621
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| 12/19/2008 10:35 PM |
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Posted By DavidW5 on 12/19/2008 7:04 PM
Just another example of poor management of the association.
David, I certainly don't know your BOD but don't assume they waited until the last day to comply. HOA Boards are often at the mercy of the schedules of their vendors and availability of parts. |
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Your board meeting is not held in the Situation Room of the White House. It's not life or death. Let people in, keep it positive, then go home and get a good night's sleep. If you hold off drinking until after the meeting, instead of before or during, you're probably doing OK. JosephW |
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AlexL1
(Florida)
Posts:295
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| 12/20/2008 6:03 AM |
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| All the talk about the new Federal law regarding drains and I still do not know what to do. I asked locally and likewise, get all sorts of answers. I even heard that the type of drain covers is not settled yet and people should wait. What concerns me is that we do something and then later on, find out that it was not the right step(s) to have been taken and have to do it all over again. |
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MikeF4
(Texas)
Posts:26
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| 12/21/2008 6:49 PM |
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I am amazed and confused by a federal law causing all of these problems in order to hopefully prevent an average of 1 death each year.
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www.silveradohoa.com
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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:967
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| 12/22/2008 9:37 AM |
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Mike,
Would it help to know the child's death which prompted the legislation was the grand-daughter of a former US Secretary of State and Secretary of Treasury? |
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:176
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| 12/27/2008 6:02 PM |
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Would it help to know that pool installers and manufacturers have known of this hazard since day one?! Any plumber worth his salt also knows about drain hazards. Ever tried to clear a flooded area or storm drain? Drowning is a maintainance plumber's occupational hazard. The shame is that it took a famous person's child's death to finally force action which would have added about $100 to new construction cost.
Guess this is along the same lines as the electrical contractor's 10-pack of duplex receptacles for $3.49 (check it out at Lowes) when a UL listed commercial grade receptacle sells for $2.99 each.
We are fast becoming a nation of garbage consumers. Since we pay for this junk and/or second rate construction ..... it must be acceptable.
PLEASE let us remember that 'code' is the MINIMUM standard for human occupation.
A Quanset hut with 7' ceilings and 1 w/c meets code. Want to live there?
StuddaVents under the sink INSIDE your kitchen meet code.
Death-Trap pool drains which pin divers to the pool bottom met minimum code when built.....but no large public pool actually used a single drain for this very reason.
Now the HOAs are crying because we need to correct a defect which we bought because it was cheaper to build are crying? BOO HOO HOO...................... |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/27/2008 8:00 PM |
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John,
Do me a favor and explain the last sentence in your above post.
Back in this thread the designation of a public pool was given and if memory serves said a HOA pool would be classed as a public pool. Got any reason for all this confusion if you conclude the HOA "bought a defective design". I don't believe the HOA's bought pools to begin with, I would believe that would have been done by developer and Pool Company. Now the HOA has to correct a defect that you say was know to exist all along. Was there resistence by the construction companies to build the pools right, is that the problem? Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect? Help us out, I suspect this problem will grow in number of complaints. |
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:176
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| 12/28/2008 10:04 AM |
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Posted By RobertR1 on 12/27/2008 8:00 PM
John,
Do me a favor and explain the last sentence in your above post.
Back in this thread the designation of a public pool was given and if memory serves said a HOA pool would be classed as a public pool. Got any reason for all this confusion if you conclude the HOA "bought a defective design". I don't believe the HOA's bought pools to begin with, I would believe that would have been done by developer and Pool Company. Now the HOA has to correct a defect that you say was know to exist all along. Was there resistence by the construction companies to build the pools right, is that the problem? Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect? Help us out, I suspect this problem will grow in number of complaints.
Code compliance does not rule out shoddy construction practices.
Code compliance does not ensure good practice construction.
Code compliance merely makes the structure MINIMALLY fit for human occupation/use.
Building precisely to code quarrantees a MINIMALLY adequate structure which is MINIMALLY suited fot occupation/use.
Building to good practice and EXCEEDING code standards would have added to the builder's/developer's costs - the units/homes would have had to be higher priced or of lesser profit.
The purchasers into the HOA bought these 'crap pools' and are now complaining about a law requiring them to be brought up to accepted industry safety standards.
<<"Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect?">>
EXACTLY
e.g. The Ford Pinto, while legal to drive, was a known death trap in a rear end collision due to the 'flimsy' under the trunk/rear seat gas tank. The more expensive Chevy Impala was not.
Product safety recalls are done all the time - this one is merely written into law !
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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:967
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| 12/28/2008 10:40 AM |
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As Mike previously noted, these drains, before James Baker III suffered a personal loss, accounted for an average of 1 death a year. 1 death in 1000s, or 10,000s, or 100,000s of pools. De minimus, as a Court might say. Now, I'm not pro-drowning, but that's a pretty small number of casualties by any measure. Imagine if every other commonly used appliance/structure/vehicle/whatever that caused more than 1 death per year suddenly had to all be retrofitted at a cost of $Ms, or $Bs, or $Ts, just because a powerful man got his nose out of joint.
But the (drain protection) law's been passed, so that's the way it goes. Personally, I think it's a massive waste and burden, but I'm not JB3.
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