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GeorgeG5
(California)

Posts:19

03/16/2010 7:49 PM
Daniel, I have repeatedly read my post and I can't for the life of me find anything in it that should have led you to believe that I have been, as you seem to have concluded, "offended by much of the discussion on HOA Talk." Nor have I been able to find anything in my post that suggests that I was "offended" by any statements you have made. I did disagree with some of your remarks, but only because, as I said, "they, if allowed to pass unchallenged, might cause many frustrated forum readers (Californian or National) to subsequently not avail themselves of a powerful adversarial argument they might very much need in attempts to deal with uninformed or excessively authoritarian boards and/or managers." Across the country, many association members are being blatantly denied their due process rights by dictatorial boards and managers. Those frustrated and beleagured association members need to know that they have due process rights; they need to have an understanding of what the concept of due process involves; and they need to be encouraged to demand their due process rights when they feel that those rights are being ignored in association adversarial proceedings.

MaryA1

Posts:0

03/17/2010 8:05 AM
Charles, Thx for the response I really appreciate your insight. When I said the majority of boards make the accusation I meant it's the board who sends the violation notice; therefore they are making the accusation. I know there are some assn's that rely on the members to inform the board of a violation but whatever the procedure the board should always check out the complaint b/4 sending a violation notice. Sadly, I know this does not always happen. When I stated it is not the law in most states that the defendant know the identy of the accuser, I was referring to HOA statutes. I should have been more clear. The AZ statute has some flaws in it. It states that if the member contacts the board regarding the violation notice, among other things the board must inform them of the name of the person who observed the violation. The statute only says if the member responds to the violation notice but doesn't elaborate on their response. Did the response ask for the name of the person who observed the violation, ask for an appeal hearing or merely state they would comply with the notice? I have heard that some boards are getting aroung this requirement by stating the PM noticed the violation because the PM must check out all complaints b/4 sending a violation notice. IMO, HOA due process means the member in violation has a right to an appeal. In AZ HOA state law dictates that a fine cannot be imposed until a member has had an appeal before the board. However, IMO, in order for HOA BODS to act w/i the law (in compliance with criminal code?) regarding due process, the legislature should write laws outlining the correct procedure to follow. Otherwise HOA boards are only going to do what their gov. docs. dictate which may be very far from complying with the law.

GeorgeG5
(California)

Posts:19

03/17/2010 2:08 PM
Mary, In the salutation to your last post (3/17/2010) in this thread, you addressed "Charles." I assume that was a memory slip and that you meant to write "George." I furthermore assume that the remarks in the body of your post were meant to be responsive to my post of 3/17/10. Thank you for the clarifications you made in your post. I do not pretend to be cognizant of the details of Arizona law, but I know something about common law, constitutional law, and California Common Interest Developments law (association law). I have been a resident in a California HOA for more than 16 years. Our association, like all associations, has had its share of legal squabbles. A fairly recent case, for example, cost the losing party more than $100,000. Costly, but still not as costly as some California association cases. It is not unusual for a California court case to ultimately cost one of the involved parties $500,000 or more. For this reason, it is important that potential litigants (both accused members and hearing boards) know as much about relevant laws as possible before allowing themselves to fall into court quagmires. My own association's boards have over the last 16 years become increasingly cognizant of, though less than fully knowledgeable of, such relevant bodies of law. In getting relatively up to speed on common law and California association law, they have found the Adams Kessler Website extremely helpful. A newly elected board member preparing for his or her first violations hearing can quickly learn most of what he or she needs to know about relevant laws and procedures at the Adams Kessler site by first pointing his or her Web browser toward the site's main page (http://www.davis-stirling.com/) and then on that main page clicking the "Hearings procedures" link. The "Hearings procedures" link takes the user to a page titled "RULES ENFORCEMENT." On the "RULES ENFORCEMENT" page the user finds links to short essays on such basic legal concepts as due process, recusal, and anonymous witnesses, as well as numerous links to discussions of relevant California-specific procedures. The Adams Kessler site can, I think, be confidently considered THE layman-oriented California association laws resource. Is there a similar Website devoted to Arizona association law? Are you aware of similar Websites devoted to the association laws of other states? If such Websites exist, it would be worth compiling a list of them for users of HOATalk.com.

JodyC
(California)

Posts:3

03/17/2010 3:43 PM
Before a board can meet to consider imposing discipline upon a member, it must notify the member in writing, by either personal delivery or first-class mail, at least 10 days prior to the meeting (unless the governing document set a longer notice period). Civil Code §1363(h). The notice must contain the following: The date, time, and place of the meeting, The nature of the alleged violation for which a member may be disciplined, and A statement that the member has a right to attend the hearing, view the evidence of violation, and present a defense, including his/her own witnesses and documentary evidence. Tenants. There is no requirement that the association give notice to a tenant of a violation hearing. Notice must be given to the owner of the property. If the owner wants to notify the tenant, that is at the owner's discretion. Take a look at Davis Stirling website. No need to hire an attorney. The law is clear and you should alert your board as such. http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/NoticeofHearing/tabid/1738/Default.aspx

MaryA1

Posts:0

03/17/2010 4:21 PM
Hi George, Sorry for calling you Charles, by mistake, of course. Thx for the info -- I'll have to check out the Adams-Kessler site and make some notes on the "rules enforcement" info. I keep a large binder that is chock full of HOA info that has been most helpful to me over the years. No, there isn't a comparable website regarding AZ HOA law. However a number of the more prominent HOA attorneys have websites and some publish newsletters that are very helpful. And, of course, there's always CAI. I'm not a member but I do know they have published a lot of very helpful info.

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