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GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1377

07/18/2008 8:37 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 07/18/2008 8:03 PM Bruce, Sounds good to me. Actually, I think my CCRs could have been written and organized much better. Everytime I want to look something up I have to dig and dig! Mary what I did was scan our documents into a Word document and now I can find what I want with a keyword search. It also allowed me to print out a clean copy (instead of a fifth generation photocopy) which I put into a binder with my own references and highlights.

ParkP
(Maryland)

Posts:31

07/18/2008 9:18 PM
It reads prohibits self management by the association. where i was going with topic, new management is only handling finances. Is the Bod,managing the violations? Would that be self managed?

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1377

07/18/2008 9:44 PM
Posted By ParkP on 07/18/2008 9:18 PM It reads prohibits self management by the association. where i was going with topic, new management is only handling finances. Is the Bod,managing the violations? Would that be self managed? IMO no, it is not self-management although it's hard to tell without seeing exactly what the contract between the MC and the BOD calls for. Even if the MC sends out the violation letter it is usually done at the instruction of the BOD. All the powers of the Association flow through the BOD the MC is just their agent.

CharlesI1
(California)

Posts:29

07/19/2008 5:29 AM
How do you scan a document (jpeg format) and then convert it to a text document. Chuck needs to know. Thanks

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1710

07/19/2008 10:40 AM
Posted By ParkP on 07/18/2008 9:18 PM It reads prohibits self management by the association. where i was going with topic, new management is only handling finances. Is the Bod,managing the violations? Would that be self managed? I hate to say this again, and I hate to appear to be nit-picking, but I still can't understand your question or concern. What reads "prohibits self management by the association"? How exactly is it stated? Also, "New management is only handling finances." Meaning what? sending out assessment notices and depositing the receipts? Paying the bills? Also, please, the grammar of this sentence is so awkward, that I really and truly do NOT understand it: "Is the Bod,managing the violations? Would that be self managed?" Are you trying to say that the board is handling the violations? In what way are they "handling" them? Are they sending out violation notices? Are they doing walk-throughs and recording then citing the violations? I mean, a BOD will manage the management company to a certain degree, but if you have a management company sending out assessments, doing collections, it would seem to me that the HOA is not self-managed then.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/19/2008 10:49 AM
Park, There is such a thing as being "semi-self-managed". What you describe is how my former assn is run. They have an accounting service who takes care of all the finances: collects and deposits the assessments, pays the bills, prepares the financials, etc. The board is resp. for all other aspects of managing the assn: solicits bids for landscaper, etc; takes care of violation notices and handles anything that isn't financially related. Self-managed means the board members perform ALL the functions previously mentioned.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:463

07/19/2008 11:09 AM
Mary, Why would you call that semi-self-managed? I'd respectfully submit that is a self-managed HOA. Hiring outside vendors to provide services? We all do that, but that doesn't make the vendors part of management; rather, they are agents of management (the BOD). If our landscaping firm messes something up, the BOD has the right to, and obligation to, get it straightened out with the landscaper. The BOD made an agreement for services, pays for the services, and as in any agent/principal relationship, the Board (principal)is ultimately responsible for proper execution of the agreement to the benefit of the HOA. For that matter, a PM is an agent of the Board, and though a PM may be granted broad powers, at the end of the day, the BOD is responsible for allowing/disallowing/approving/ disapprovoving PM's actions. Wouldn't you agree? Just saying. Slow day here in HOATalk land.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/19/2008 11:33 AM
John, I say that for the same reason I would say (and I suppose you would too) they are not self managed if they hire a mgmt co to do all the work. IMO, self-managed means the board members do everything with regard to operating the assn, which includes anything financially related.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

07/19/2008 11:36 AM
That's OK. I never could sort out what the weatherman means by partly sunny or partly cloudy. Mostly sunny and mostly cloudy seem easy enough, but then is mostly cloudy = partly sunny and mostly sunny = partly cloudy? Beats me.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:463

07/19/2008 11:42 AM
Mary, I guess my attempted point was that if a PM is hired to run the whole melange, then the HOA has opted for an outside-managed HOA. Lacking that turnover, I'd say self-managed is what an HOA is. Or to put it another way, if somebody (a PM) is paid fees to manage, rather than a vendor paid for specific services not requiring a management fee... Whatever. I'll move on now :-)!

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/19/2008 11:49 AM
John, Hiring an outside vendor to take care of the finances is a really big resp. taken away from the board members. This is why I call it being semi-self-managed. But I can see your point of view also -- it can be taken both ways. O.K. now I'll move on too. Just had to get the last word in first . You must remember, I'm always right (even when I'm wrong!). When I was a working gal many, many years ago that's what I always told my employees (with a smile of course) and we all got along just fine. LOL

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1377

07/19/2008 4:07 PM
But John how do you differentiate the management fees from fees paid to say the pool company? They all come from the same checking account and are both fees paid for a specific service. At the end of the day a MC is a contractor just like any other vendor.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1377

07/19/2008 4:18 PM
Posted By CharlesI1 on 07/19/2008 5:29 AM How do you scan a document (jpeg format) and then convert it to a text document. Chuck needs to know. Thanks Charles I scanned the documents I received when I closed on my home and converted them to text. While I have never converted a jpg to txt I know there are converters out there to convert jpg to pdf and ones that convert pdf to Word so you might have an extra step or two. If you use a search engine and put in "how to convert jpg to" you should get a list of companies selling this type of software. Most of them offer a free trial period with reduced features so you can see if it's what you need so you can convert for free.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:590

07/19/2008 6:08 PM
Charles, Some scanners include Optical Character Reader (OCR) software that allows you to scan a text document just like you would a photo but it converts it to searchable and editable text. Some work better than others.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:463

07/20/2008 9:21 AM
I tried to move on. I really did. Anyway, try this: A given set of ByLaws allows the Board to retain a PM firm, and then enumerates in detail the powers, duties, etc. of the PM. Perhaps, the Developer conveniently owns a subsidiary that provides PM services (which is the case with our HOA). Q1: So, Mr. John3? Starting with your HOA's establishment, and through February, 2008, did your Board retain the services of a PM? A1: Yes, sir. Q2: And your Board paid for these services? A2: Yes, sir. Q3: So how would you describe your HOA during that period? A3: We had outside management. We were a managed HOA. Q4: And you have sinced terminated this PM's services? A4: Yes, sir. Q5: So how would you presently describe your HOA? A5: We're now self-managed. Q6: (raising voice) Isn't it true you hire a landscaper to "manage" your common areas, and a bank to "manage" your deposits and expenditures, and an insurance agent to "manage" your insurance needs? A6: Well, of course we... Q7: (shouting) Isn't it true, Mr. JohnK3, that in fact you are now known, per industry standards, as a semi-modified, duty-optional, vendor-friendly MANAGED HOA! A7: Nope. We're now self-managed.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/20/2008 3:50 PM
John, Or, should I say Mr. Persistence? LOL The difference in your scenario and mine is that my former assn hired a bookkeeping service to perform all the financial functions necessary to run the assn. This is not the same as hiring a landscaper; and you don't contract with a bank or an insurance agent. Someone else performing all the financial duties is taking a very big and important job away from the board, thus my impression that this now makes the assn "semi" self-managed. The board handles everything but the finances. I would think the same if they hired a mgmt co to only enforce the CCRs but took care of the finances and everything else themselves. When the BOD handles ALL the necessary functions required to operate the assn they are self-managed. But if they contract out one of the more critical functions, then they are "semi" self-managed. These are my thoughts and I'm stickin' to it!

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:463

07/21/2008 8:45 AM
Mary, I respond quickly to Tedious. As in: "You know, John, you can really be tedious at times." I also respond to other pejoratives, but that's just me. Anyway, I understand your points here. We're just shopping alternate definitions that, as far as I know, will not change the air quality in Beijing. Carry on.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/21/2008 6:50 PM
"You know, John, you can really be tedious at times." John, is that your wife talking? LOL

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

07/22/2008 6:20 AM
Actually is an HOA ever managed from the outside? The definition of manage is to direct or control the use of something. Even if you hire a property manager the Board is still over the Property manager and then manages how they manage the association. Basically it is just like any business model, the owner manages the entire operation but often times they hire managers for specific areas. The Board is owner, they oversee (or at least should) everything.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1710

07/22/2008 6:27 AM
Posted By BradP on 07/22/2008 6:20 AM Actually is an HOA ever managed from the outside? The definition of manage is to direct or control the use of something. Even if you hire a property manager the Board is still over the Property manager and then manages how they manage the association. Basically it is just like any business model, the owner manages the entire operation but often times they hire managers for specific areas. The Board is owner, they oversee (or at least should) everything. Excellent comment.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:463

07/22/2008 8:15 AM
Mary, In the privacy of our home, within the confines of our self-managed HOA, my wife uses...how shall I say this...language that is much more...frank regarding her points...regarding her infrequent displeasure with some of my behavior patterns...but 17 years into our marital bliss, I'd have to say when she does speak, my bride pretty much hits things right on the money!

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

07/22/2008 11:33 AM
Posted By JohnK3 on 07/22/2008 8:15 AM Mary, In the privacy of our home, within the confines of our self-managed HOA, my wife uses...how shall I say this...language that is much more...frank regarding her points...regarding her infrequent displeasure with some of my behavior patterns...but 17 years into our marital bliss, I'd have to say when she does speak, my bride pretty much hits things right on the money! It's good that she's able to see through the "veneer" and knows what's deep down inside, which, IMO, is one of the key ingredients to a good relationship. My wonderful husband has put up with me (and vice versa!) for 43 years. Keep doing what you're doing and the "marital bliss" will be everlasting.

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