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EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:353

06/26/2008 6:13 PM
DJ, These are not scare tactics and I realize every area is different. I have no idea what happens in Canada but I can tell you here in Florida we get lots of people moving here on a shoestring who only want a roof over their heads and could care less about maintaining a property. I am on the board of an HOA and would rather not be but I can tell you from past experience this place would look like a dump if we didn't try to enforce our docs. I am not the enforcer type. I retired to an HOA since I can no longer take care of a lawn, etc. and would prefer the "live and let live" approach. My home is my largest investment and I intend to keep the values up. We are a community of townhomes so don't expect a lot of owners but if their units siding is coming off, yes, we expect them to remedy that, if garbage cans are kept outside 24/7 we expect them to be put in garages, we don't want to see large commercial vehicles parked in driveways, we ask that owners of dogs "poop and scoop" tho that is only half successful and other minor things. This is what any good neighbor would do whether in or out of a HOA. The only difference is that a HOA can enforce these things while a stand alone property is just up the creek.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/26/2008 6:23 PM
Ellen, "This is what any good neighbor would do whether in or out of a HOA. The only difference is that a HOA can enforce these things while a stand alone property is just up the creek." Still not up the creek here without a HOA as the Municipality also has bylaws that would address all the examples you've given...on a complaint basis...but then isn't that what some HOA do too (complaint basis).

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:353

06/26/2008 6:31 PM
You make my point. Evidently your municipality does its job. We are not so lucky here in Jacksonville, Fl..I'm certain if you lived here you would have a different point of view. Services with the City are sorely lacking. Don't judge all areas by what happens in your city. I lived in a community in South Florida that addressed all sorts of problems but Jacksonville is behind the times and too busy trying to solve our reputation as one of the largest murder cities in the US. They have little time to solve homeowners' problems. Different strokes for different folks.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/26/2008 6:38 PM
DJ, Well, I think that we should all move up to your HOA because it sounds like yours does a much better job than any I have heard of. Must be financially better off too seeing that everyone does what they are supposed to do thus the association does not have to spend its money chasing down the slackers. Oh--wait a minute, I remember you posting that yours doesn't care if you have hoops in the drives, trucks parked outside, etc. I think that you said once that you would never live in a place where the rules were so strict. "You don't know how humourous your statement is in light of what goes on in the HOA I'm surrounded by. CCR's for boats, parking, unauthorized landscaping and home changes but the 'violations' are from the HOA members. Does it bother me? Not at all. " By the way, what Board position do you hold?

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/27/2008 4:22 AM
Ellen, The municipality does it's job IF someone complains. My point was that there is recourse even without a HOA...which was contrary to your comment, "The only difference is that a HOA can enforce these things while a stand alone property is just up the creek." Donna, "Oh--wait a minute, I remember you posting that yours doesn't care if you have hoops in the drives, trucks parked outside, etc. I think that you said once that you would never live in a place where the rules were so strict." When we learned of the CCR's (incl multiple versions) our concern was not about having to pay fees for the clubhouse/common area maintenance, it WAS about how an Association was going to handle the turnover from the developer since the 'rule's' had gone unenforced for ~5-6 years. I asked a board member how they intended to handle it. In 2006 she said not to worry that they were only going to enforce certain of the rules. I saw this as selective enforcement that would, if they tried doing to some homeowners who wouldn't put up with this, result in lawsuits and challenges that would only raise fees and thus my individual costs as a member. I READ the CCR's! I know how strict they are...IF THEY WERE ENFORCED AS WRITTEN. I, unlike any other resident that I know, had in casual conversations with neighbours actually spoke about these concerns for a couple years, and in doing so I learned how few knew or had read or understood the CCR's, and I learned how different residents had different 'views' of what the neighborhood was supposed to be. ie. One person didn't like that there were kids in the neighborhood cause the developer marketed it to her as an empty nest community...this despite several families with kids living here (including us) who this resident knew lived her since she bought ~2 years after us. ie. One person who didn't like the style of fence of one neighbour. I cautioned that you better watch out what you wish for since, due to no enforcment by developer for years you have all kinds of violationsand if you enforce the fence rule (need approval from ARC before doing any improvements exterior to the house) you need to equally enforce all the other rules otherwise someone could sue for selective enforcement. Also the perception of bias in enforcing leading to all kinds of conflicts. ie. The guy with the boat saying he would remove it (per CCRs) IF he saw enforcement of x,y,z that other residents were doing wrong, otherwise he would feel picked on. Make no mistake I commended the group of volunteer residents for volunteering and who were doing what they thought was best, but it was an impossible situation to clean up the developers mess. I suggested holding a meeting to essentially start over again to inform residents that what the developer had told individuals might not be what others had been told and so our different ideas about what the community was supposed to be may not be the same...essentially to to get everyone on the same page almost starting over with a blank page if you know what I mean. Only when everyone was informed that there were CCR's, what a HOA meant etc can you begin to get people onside. They refused then went door to door to 33 homes that didn't have the CCR's registered and told different people different things to 'convince' them to sign to join. I know based on the meeting I held in my yard the different 'stories' people were given. Inconsistent and shall we say EXTREME stretching of the truth..just to get people to sign. I think people deserve honest information to make an informed choice. So to end, Donna, you asked, "By the way, what Board position do you hold?" Smugness and arrogance? You know the answer as I have stated our situation numerous times and accurately represented our situation for several years here now when it relates to a particular post. I maintain that it isn't a HOA that is ever the problem, it is the people that make it up that can be.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/27/2008 5:28 AM
DJ, You have got the wrong person when you said that we don't care if trucks are out and hoops are in the driveways. Look again my Dear, because it sure as heck is not me! " I think that you said once that you would never live in a place where the rules were so strict." I enforce the rules to the letter so don't quote me without having it backed up.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/27/2008 5:59 AM
Posted By DJ1 on 06/26/2008 5:23 PM Posted By DonnaS on 06/26/2008 12:43 PM Brad, I'm with you on this. If you don't like it, then move. You had the choice before so make another choice. Live with it or get out. Donna, 18 out of 24 'want' to get rid of the HOA. Hmmm. I wonder how many of the 18 realize once they dissolve the HOA there has to be a caretaker assigned to the common property and that alone will probably cost more than what they are doing now... If this association had our bylaws they would have to wait another 30 years, then get 18 of the 24 to sign a document dissolving the HOA. I still contend the easiest way is to sell and move.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/27/2008 6:18 AM
Posted By DonnaS on 06/27/2008 5:28 AM DJ, You have got the wrong person when you said that we don't care if trucks are out and hoops are in the driveways. Look again my Dear, because it sure as heck is not me! " I think that you said once that you would never live in a place where the rules were so strict." I enforce the rules to the letter so don't quote me without having it backed up. Uh, Donna, I didn't say you said that, I cut YOUR quote to me and was responding to it. Don't you remember or is it just emotion that caused you to hit send so quick? Seriously.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/27/2008 7:41 AM
DJ, You still did not answer my question. What position do you hold on your Board? Unless you have walked in a Board members shoes, it is easy to sluff off issues such as Ellen and Pat have to deal with. As far as I am concerned, I am done sparring with you. Thank You!

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/27/2008 8:00 AM
Donna I guess you didn't read my post Posted:6/27/2008 4:22:21 AM in its entirety. It explains the concerns. I have also stated that I acknowledge and recognize Board members contributions and that they are usually doing the best they can with what skills and resources they individually bring to a board. One does not need to be on a board to contribute or do good in a HOA. I did more to share info with residents than many board members here. Sharing information and debating a point need not be adversarial or 'sparring'. I recognize your right to express a position and it doesn't mean I disagree with it. Sometimes though different perspectives can aid a Board (or poster) to FULLY consider as many sides to an issue.

CharlieS
(Tennessee)

Posts:21

06/28/2008 12:17 AM
So what happens if you guys just pretend the HOA does not exist. I am living in a newer HOA with growing pains. My next door neighbor in the other direction is in a different HOA. They never started their HOA and everything is doing just fine. They have common area, it's behind some homes it's all grown up. Nobody there is worried about insurance on it. I do not know what would happen if there was a claim on that property. But so far, almost 10 years running, it's working fine for them.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

06/28/2008 8:15 AM
Posted By CharlieS on 06/28/2008 12:17 AM So what happens if you guys just pretend the HOA does not exist. I am living in a newer HOA with growing pains. My next door neighbor in the other direction is in a different HOA. They never started their HOA and everything is doing just fine. They have common area, it's behind some homes it's all grown up. Nobody there is worried about insurance on it. I do not know what would happen if there was a claim on that property. But so far, almost 10 years running, it's working fine for them. charlie, who pays the state property taxes on that grown up property behind the homes? Someone has to be paying it, or sooner or later, the state will notice, and then everyone in the HOA will be involved in a legal action.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:353

06/28/2008 5:51 PM
DJ, Our City does not respond IF there is a complaint. Do not judge our city by your municipality. We called when we in the early am morning saw two guys stealing lawn furniture held over their heads and were asked "what color are they?" we answered we couldn't see since they had the chairs over their heads..NO response. We called when we saw some older teen boys going through the neighborhood, also after dark, with pillow cases and walking behind properties on the lake (private property)..NO response. We also called when it seemed evident that a white truck was "casing" the neighborhood..NO response. Give me a break, if our city does not respond to these type of things are you telling me they will respond to HOA problems? We have had limited response from code enforcement but without our HOA enforcing our covenants I would not want to live here.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/29/2008 3:37 AM
Ellen, You have to learn to play the P.D.'s game! My rule of thumb is this: if I come home to find my home has been burgularized I will call the P.D. and make it sound as though the crooks are still on the premises. I guarantee you, they will be at my house in a heartbeat! You have to make them think your life is in danger; otherwise they may just tell you to file a report. My home was burglarized a number of years ago. I called the P.D. and said I had just come home to find my house has been burgularized. I was asked "are they still there?" I said, "I don't know, I just came in." The police were at my door w/i 5 minutes! Several months later, a neighbor's home was burgularized. When she called the P.D. they told her to just call in a report. I realized they only came right out to my home because I game them the impression the burgulars might still be there.

BillieE
(Iowa)

Posts:9

06/29/2008 6:00 AM
Geez, you people are all over the place. Air Force One? The question was, how do homeowners rid themselves of an HOA. The answer is simple. If all of the homeowners in an HOA agree, they can simply file a document that disavows the HOA. It is that simple. The restrictions placed on multiple properties are the same as a restriction placed on one property. That is, I can file a restriction on my own property - one lot. It will bind the buyer of my property if it is properly recorded and included in the abstract - of which the buyer has (presumed) knowledge. The thing is, I can rescind my restriction at any time when I own the property - and so can the buyer. In the case of multiple properties, it works the same way. If ALL owners agree, they can remove all restrictions and, if they want, adopt totally new covenants. In a sense, the covenants on multiple properties act as a contract among the several owners. Each owner is relying on the others to keep the promises (restrictions) in the contract. Of course, as with any contract, the contracting parties can always change their mind and rescind the contract - as long as all parties agree. Even though there might be a corporation and provisions in the documents for covenant amendments, etc., it becomes irrelevant if all homeowners reach a new agreement. It is their property and the courts will uphold their right to collectively remove any and all restrictions from their properties.

BillieE
(Iowa)

Posts:9

06/29/2008 6:04 AM
BrianB, HOAs are usually non-profit corporations and their property taxes, in Iowa at least, are negligible.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/29/2008 6:19 AM
Billie, AZ has passed laws to drastically reduce the property taxes for HOAs also. But, it's just not as simple to dissolve an HOA as you make it appear. If there are common areas and amenities the HOA must come up with a plan to disperse of those assets. The members cannot just dissolve the HOA and walk away from their responsibility to maintain those common areas. Where I live in Glendale, AZ (next to Phx) the CCRs of many of the newer assn's have a clause that says maint. of the common areas cannot be terminated w/o the approval of the City of Glendale. What that means is that the HOA cannot dissolve unless the common areas are either sold or the owners agree to continue to maintain them even though the assn no longer exists. Perhaps form a voluntary HOA; but who's going to join? Would you join so you could pay to keep up the common areas and perhaps the majority of the other property owners want no part of the expense? No one is going to buy those parcels, most of which are water retention basins that cannot ever be used for anything else. And, the city is NOT going to accept ownership of those common areas and amenities -- that's why they require HOAs to maintain them in the first place. So, you see, it's just not a matter of getting the required % of members to agree to dissolve.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/29/2008 9:09 AM
Ellen said, "Give me a break, if our city does not respond to these type of things are you telling me they will respond to HOA problems? We have had limited response from code enforcement but without our HOA enforcing our covenants I would not want to live here." So your HOA enforces and your city doesn't. My city enforces and the hoa doesn't. I am not 'telling' you anything, simply responding when you said, "This is what any good neighbor would do whether in or out of a HOA. The only difference is that a HOA can enforce these things while a stand alone property is just up the creek." That statement referred to HOA's in general not yours. We personally don't need a HOA or Municipality to 'enforce' REASONABLE neighbourhood behaviour. I guess it all comes down to what you view that as vs what we do. There is always something somebody doesn't like but treating others with basic respect is one thing we do. They will just have to ignor my kid and basketball hoop if that bothers them.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/29/2008 9:20 AM
DJ, NOT trying to be offensive or argumentive with you but I'd like to ask this question of you. WHAT IF ??? your association did not allow hoops at all? You probably would not have bought in that developement but what if?

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/29/2008 11:28 AM
Donna, we wouldn't have bought the hoop under that scenario, but then we would have undertaken to see about getting the rule changed, which seems unlikely to happen based on what many posters here convey as to the difficulty in getting any rule changes (ie.quorum etc) What is a 'reasonable' expectation of ones neighbour. I think that can change with the natural homeowner turnover. I guess there is basic courtesy like keeping music down, poop scooping etc but some of the interpretation of rules can defy logic. ie. No clotheslines. No wonder there is an energy crisis!

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/29/2008 11:33 AM
To clarify, we didn't want a hoop when our kid was very young. But now it provides exercise, entertainment etc. A community's needs change with time but the rules don't always keep up.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/29/2008 11:41 AM
You are right, just like the clotheslines and solar roof panels to heat pools and watertanks. Good thing that the State and Feds take over on some rules. Some!! Not all. Propane came up in our Assoc also. Some had them installed in ground to heat pools but the original docs say no to them. The Developer okayed the first ones only to undermine the docs that he had written. What's a Board Ta Do? Try changing them is like you said, pulling teeth.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/29/2008 11:57 AM
Donna, that is partly why when I see responses like, you knew what the rules were when you bought, or, sell and move, it is somewhat simplistic to the reality of peoples changing lives. People don't always know what will change in their life and while some people have no problem getting up and moving, others like ourselves get jobs in a certain area, establish friends, schools and other ties. Cooperation, respect, and flexibility from all affected might make everyone's life a little more enjoyable.

BillieE
(Iowa)

Posts:9

06/29/2008 3:23 PM
MaryA1. Ah but it is just that simple. ALL homeowners can remove their obligations from their property records. You see, I spoke of removing any restrictions on each homeowner’s property or deed. Sure, the HOA Corporation remains in existence and it owns the common areas but without the deed language, no homeowner remains a "shareholder" in the corporation. What happens to the corporation and its ownership of the common area? Good question. As far as I have been able to tell, no court has ruled on this issue. It may be possible that a court would find an equitable solution by imposing maintenance fees upon the homeowners. But you would have to look at corporation law to determine what happens to an abandoned corporation and its assets.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2248

06/29/2008 4:07 PM
Posted By BillieE on 06/29/2008 3:23 PM MaryA1. Ah but it is just that simple. ALL homeowners can remove their obligations from their property records. You see, I spoke of removing any restrictions on each homeowner’s property or deed. Sure, the HOA Corporation remains in existence and it owns the common areas but without the deed language, no homeowner remains a "shareholder" in the corporation. What happens to the corporation and its ownership of the common area? Good question. As far as I have been able to tell, no court has ruled on this issue. It may be possible that a court would find an equitable solution by imposing maintenance fees upon the homeowners. But you would have to look at corporation law to determine what happens to an abandoned corporation and its assets. But, I don't believe it's corp. law that prevails. In all the cases I've read about the judges rely on property law. And, how would you propose that a homeowner remove their obligations from their property records? CCRs are equitable servitudes that run with the land. You can't just go down to the CO. recorder's office and remove the deed restrictions from your deed. If it were as simple as that all those people who hate HOAs would be going to their recorder's offices in droves!!

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2841

06/29/2008 4:45 PM
Good Question Mary, Billie, tell us how you can just remove your deed restrictions from your property records? I have not ever heard of this. I went to the Fl. Not for Profit Corp Statutes and the only way that I saw to do that was by a vote of the membership. Please enlighted us on how you think this can be done. I have to get out my docs again but I highly doubt that this can be done.

ShawnV
(Florida)

Posts:3

06/29/2008 4:47 PM
hmmm lets see,,out of 24 homes 5-6 are rented out(some sec8)1 is painted diff. color 18 dont pay dues and wish to dissolve hoa. 6 homes pay dues. HOA does nothing but play the role . lets see hmmm.. for the last 7-8 months, i have been cutting the retention pond(mind you this is what the dues are for and havent been taken care of for last 11-12 months) for free because everybody cares...right give me a freakin break. Yes its easier to move, but i love it here ....SO my question was how to get rid of Hoa.. not fly airforce 1 or any of the other b.s. thank you all.. Hoa or not ..

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1377

06/29/2008 11:43 PM
And Shawn you were told exactly how before the posts got sidetracked. Somewhere in your CC&R's is the exact process to dissolve the HOA. It usually takes the affirmative vote of 100% of the homeowners and an entity willing to absorb the costs of maintaining any common areas. Now you could try to just abandon the property (common areas), I honestly do not know what would happen then. But with so many in arrears you may want to get an attorney involved to guide you through the process however in most cases one homeowner refusing to sign can kill the whole deal. Also there are HOA riders in a lot of mortgages that prevent an HOA from being dissolved while the mortgage is in effect without the mortgage holder's approval especially government backed mortgages like FHA & VA so you also have to check everyone's mortgage to see if it's possible without their approval. You can contact the Secretary of State's office to find out exactly how to dissolve the HOA corporate entity.

BillieE
(Iowa)

Posts:9

06/30/2008 2:34 AM
MaryA1, Typically, a developer buys land and subdivides it into lots and common area. The developer creates a corporation and obligates it to maintain the land it owns (common area) and for enforcing the covenants imposed on the other properties. This organization is the same as any other non-profit domestic corporation created under state law. The main difference is this corporation has the word “association” in its name and the property owners are designated as members instead of shareholders. At any time before selling a lot, the developer can cancel everything and withdraw the impositions and restrictions on the land. Even after one lot is sold, the developer and the new lot owner can still agree to rescind everything. The same goes for the developer and five, ten, and more lot owners. Finally, after the developer is out of the picture, all of the lot owners can still do the same thing. Don’t forget – it requires ALL of the property owners. Collectively, it is their land and the courts recognize their freedom to do with their real property as they wish. You and the person posting after you may have missed this key part: The corporation, the association, need not be dissolved. It may continue in existence. The only thing that has changed is that the shareholders have disavowed or rejected their shares, that is, their membership, and removed the restrictions from their property records. No one can force you to continue to keep shares in a corporation. If you want, for example, you can send your shares of IBM back to IBM at any time. So the corporation – the “person” – continues in existence, but the lot owners and their properties have no more obligations, conditions, covenants, or restrictions. The city, if it wants to force the corporation to do something, such as cut weeds, has only the corporation to proceed against. Assuming that the board of directors resigned, there are no shareholders, no live human beings, for the city or court to proceed against. That's why I said corporate law would guide the court’s action. As far a property law, the courts do not favor any kinds of restrictions and will rule against them when there is any doubt. Again, if ALL properties have freed their properties from the restrictions, the court would be very unlikely to re-impose the covenants or corporate ownership. The part that most observers of homeowner associations miss is that the mutual limitations on property actually involve contract law. When I purchase a property with beneficial restrictions, I rely on the others bound by the covenants (also known as contracts) to uphold their part of the bargain. For example, if several adjacent property owners sign and record in land records a contract to buy a nearby lot, own it jointly, and maintain it, the resulting arrangement would look to a court and be treated exactly as what you call an HOA. It needn’t be called an association, but the duty of each party to all others would be the same as each member’s duty to the other members of an association. Most people find it hard to separate the HOA, the association, from the implied agreements embedded in the land deeds. But they are two different things. You and I can file to remove from our deeds any mention of the association and the restrictions – but the association (corporation) itself would continue. The association/corporation would have no members or shareholders, but it would remain an active corporation until the state dissolved it for failure to file reports, pay fees, or etc. Most people find it hard to believe that they can just go down to the county recorder's office and remove the deed restrictions from their deed, because they are equitable servitudes that run with the land. But it is possible. If ALL owners with the equitable servitudes jointly agree, then there is no one left to object, to resist, or to sue to stop them. If all but one did this, however, the remaining landowner would have standing to proceed in court and would likely prevail. DonnaS, you said that you found that a vote of membership is required to change deed restrictions. That may be true but that approach is not what I'm describing. In the case I describe, ALL of the property owners are operating on their own, outside of the association. They are not following the articles of incorporation, bylaws, declarations, or covenants. They are bypassing all of this and acting as independent, collective, land owners. As such, they are not bound by any of the documents used to establish the association/corporation. Another way to understand this approach is to think about the legal requirement that all such land restrictions must eventually terminate – usually after 21 years. If the founding documents are not extended or renewed, the land restrictions simply fall away. The corporation/association would still remain, but the landowners would no longer be bound by the association’s rules.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

06/30/2008 4:29 AM
Posted By DonnaS on 06/29/2008 4:45 PM Good Question Mary, Billie, tell us how you can just remove your deed restrictions from your property records? I have not ever heard of this. I went to the Fl. Not for Profit Corp Statutes and the only way that I saw to do that was by a vote of the membership. Please enlighted us on how you think this can be done. I have to get out my docs again but I highly doubt that this can be done. Donna, in another one of the Developer's 'mistakes' our lawyer noticed the CCR's while not registered on 34 of the properties he supposedly intended, he did register it on land that was to be deeded to the Municipality (a trail running through the subdivision). We contacted the Town to see if they were going to 'dues paying members of the HOA'. Needless to say they were shocked and told us that land was supposed to be dedicated 'free and clear' of any encumberances. I believe they had the developer remove the CCR's from the title. No member vote and by this point the developer did not have majority control. Sure it was a 'mistake', and is different from this situation, BUT I only mention it as it demonstrates there is a way to remove CCR's without a vote of members.

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