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Subject: 75% of All vs 75% of Participants

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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:243

05/15/2008 8:26 AM
Our 21 Unit HOA of SFDs requires 10% (3) for a quorum at meetings and amendments to be approved (or not) by a simple majority of Owners (11). Our last annual meeting drew 8 Owners when we elected our present Board, which in turn took the HOA self-managed; the one before that, only the President showed up. COULD these low thressholds lead to a palace coup? Sure. WILL they? Time will tell. But it's doubtful. Why? As often noted, with our HOA and countless others, participation is very low on most Owners' priority lists. As long as the landscaping is cared for, the fountain is running, the bils get paid and dues expenses are held in check - we might even lower 2009's 5-7% - no soccer game, swim meet or must-see-TV is too insignificant a reason to not attend our ANNUAL. If we get more than 3 warm bodies in June, aside from the Board, I'll be passing out smelling salts! Works for us, the Board, and keeps things running smoothly. If we had a 75% rule, nothing would likely transpire without the threat of root canal work.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/15/2008 8:49 AM
John, I believe the original question dealt with the requirement to change the CCRs, an entirely different matter. I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Changing the CCRs is serious business and the conditions imposed affect everybody. They are deed restrictions and are akin to a contract between each homeowner and the association. Thus, setting a high threhold for their change is not unusual, and is probably mandated by state law in several states. I know that here, in Connecticut, CCR amendments must be approved by a large number of all homeowners, independent of what the requirements for a quorum may be. Quorum requirements may be set intentionally low, for the very reasons you mentioned. If you barely meet the quorum, you can conduct almost any business, elect board members, etc., but, chances are, you wouldn't have enough votes to be able to amend your CCRs. Read your documents very carefully. I've read ours several times over and I can always find something in them that I don't remember seeing before.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:243

05/15/2008 10:07 AM
Bruce, As usual, you excel at the fine print! The majority (+50%) refers to the ByLaws. Our CCRs require 67% for amendment of the incorporation docs. While I have your attention, lemme ask you this: At our upcoming ANNUAL, the Board is proposing an amendment to the BLs to allow Unit Owners to decide (by majority vote) whether we should have an independent audit each year rather than MUST have one (eating up +5% of our dues for someone to tell us that yes, we paid the landscaper, the electric bills, installation/removal of the fountain, and our insurance policy with funds received from membership). Ignoring the merits of the proposal, would you (or anybody else with an insight) a) Seek blind proxies from the expected no-shows and put it to rest at the ANNUAL, or; b) Send the proposed amendment to Unit Owners following the ANNUAL for each to sign aye or nay and return their votes with their 3rd Q dues? We're leaning toward "b." Thanks in advance, everyone.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/15/2008 4:26 PM
Posted By JohnK3 on 05/15/2008 10:07 AM Bruce, As usual, you excel at the fine print! The majority (+50%) refers to the ByLaws. Our CCRs require 67% for amendment of the incorporation docs. While I have your attention, lemme ask you this: At our upcoming ANNUAL, the Board is proposing an amendment to the BLs to allow Unit Owners to decide (by majority vote) whether we should have an independent audit each year rather than MUST have one (eating up +5% of our dues for someone to tell us that yes, we paid the landscaper, the electric bills, installation/removal of the fountain, and our insurance policy with funds received from membership). Ignoring the merits of the proposal, would you (or anybody else with an insight) a) Seek blind proxies from the expected no-shows and put it to rest at the ANNUAL, or; b) Send the proposed amendment to Unit Owners following the ANNUAL for each to sign aye or nay and return their votes with their 3rd Q dues? We're leaning toward "b." Thanks in advance, everyone. You can only do what your bylaws allow you to do. Sending the proposed amendment to homeowners to vote yes or no (b), sounds like an absentee ballot to me. You can do that only if your bylaws allow it. If your bylaws allow proxies but not absentee ballots, then that's the way you have to do it. Absentee ballots, if used, are sent out and must be returned prior to the annual meeting date. They remain sealed and are opened and counted after the vote has been taken at the meeting. Consider how absentee ballots are used for your municipal or state elections. You should do it in a similar fashion. A proxy is different in that it is a power of attorney authorizing the proxy holder to vote in place of the person who authorized the proxy. Corporations use proxies often. Many people in HOAs don't like proxies because, unless the person (homeowner) issuing the proxy tells the holder how to vote, he or she is free to vote any way he or she chooses. Thus, if one person could collect 10 such proxies, he or she would end up with 11 votes: the 10 proxy votes plus his or her own.

HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:904

05/15/2008 4:47 PM
That's why Arizona does not allow proxy voting and instead uses mail in ballots. Proxy voting can create too many opportunities for controlling the vote.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:243

05/17/2008 12:11 PM
Thanks, Bruce. Our ByLaws allow either absentee or prox, and based on your thoughts, we're going the absentee route and will mail out the amendment for votes shortly.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

05/17/2008 12:16 PM
John, I'll go along with option "B" Then if the owners do not reply or vote, it is not thru lack of effort by your Board. Make sure that you put a stamp on the envelope.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/17/2008 4:27 PM
John, And make sure you state a date when the absentee ballots must be returned (received). Also make sure your secretary marks the envelope containing each ballot (right next to the return address) with the date it was received.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3625

05/17/2008 4:41 PM
Based on our knowledge amendments to the Declaration of CC&Rs require 75% of EVERY OWNER (or whatever % is required by the HOA's Declaration or state statute). If a proxy be used we require it be assigned to an attorney-in-fact and require a copy of that document. We require signatures of each owner and the date signed but not notorized. Some may think only those who respond are counted, however no response is equivalent to a NO vote. Some may think delinquent members are not included, however it is owners who vote not members. Delinquent members may be prevented from voting at member meeting but as owners must be counted and thus allowed to vote on amendments to the CC&Rs.

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:904

05/17/2008 8:04 PM
Thank you Roger.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:243

05/19/2008 8:55 AM
And thanks to all who weighed in on my Amendment issue. (b)-proxy it is, sent 30 days before Annual, envelope marked BALLOT, signatures required.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3625

05/19/2008 9:05 AM
John based on your post it appears to be a mail-in ballot; that is not a proxy. A mail-in ballot followed up, if necessary, with the non responders is the means we have always use to get amendments approved.

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:243

05/19/2008 9:44 AM
Mind slower than fingers! It's absentee. Meant to say "not"-proxy.

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