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DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

10/20/2007 5:26 AM
Not really sure what you are saying Jake. I have read all the posts and even posted previously what my 'thoughts' were as the OP was asking. As a thread evolves we each focus on different aspects of it an in this case I focused on this particular comment of Ron's because it seems inconsistent with how I understand he exercises his Board responsibilities based on numerous threads. Just because we write something doesn't mean we meant it that way, so asking Ron is appropriate.

JakeS
(South Carolina)

Posts:24

10/20/2007 3:20 PM
DJ1 Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the majority of the posters were saying to back off and not push the lady on this issue. Life is just too short to sweat all this stuff. Have a blessed day. Jake

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

10/20/2007 5:46 PM
Ahh, now I see Jake. You read my post which included Ron's quote, as if the following comment, "Once an owner makes it known that he or she has little regard for the covenants, I see no reason to be lenient with that person." was mine. I notice I missed typing the second quote mark after Ron's comment. If you go back to my first post you will see that I was in the group suggesting leniency. Ron's comment sounds like the potential for him to do selective enforcement, so I'm not sure he really meant it. If one starts to treat members differently because of how they may, or may not, regard the covenants, when dealing with future violations of a different type, as opposed to how you might treat another member, that seems to be selective enforcement.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

10/20/2007 8:00 PM
Food for thought. Ron has said he was sending out a violation notice. The act is done. Now maybe Ron was Biased and maybe he wasn't, we will never know. Suppose this was a State Trooper stopping someone for going through a stop sign, and after stopping the person remember he had just wrote her a warning for the same thing last week. So he gives her a ticket. But wait, lets say he again writes her a warning. Now the lady has broken the law twice, and most of us will say, if it is the first time, give her a warning, and if happens again she should get a ticket, and the officer was wrong in letting her go the second time. Now, step back and look at what happened. We prejudged the officer, because we were biased, and we all are to some degree. But look further and think about a thing called "Officer discretion." Enforcement officer do have this option at times, in this example it applies. So, those that said she should have gotten a ticket the first time were wrong, those that said she should have gotten a ticket the second time were wrong, and those that said the Officer was wrong in either case were wrong, at least in a practical sense or applied sense. The Officer could well have been wrong in both cases but we are not the judge. Do you think you will change Ron's opinion? Do I think I could make you change your opinion? No, to both questions. If the officer had a partner riding with him they could argue about it and one might even shoot the other, who knows. And if the violator happened to be the officers mother, there is no officer that can stand the weight of the guilt load your mother can put on you if she thinks you are mean to her.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

10/21/2007 5:22 AM
RobertR1: Loved your scenario. After all the responses, we have yet to hear from Ron on whether he has considered any of them and how he is weighing in on the outcome.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

10/21/2007 5:32 AM
Ron: Have questions which may assist in your dilemma. What does your city ordinance state re trash pick-up. - what is the earliest time trash can be put out for pick-up on Thursdays? - what type of trash can be put out? bulk and/or weekly? - does the city also provide seasonal pickup times (2x year, 3x year?) for large items--furniture/mattresses/refrig/TV, etc.? - how do other associations in your 'city' handle large/bulk trash items for city pickup?

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

10/21/2007 9:53 AM
"Enforcement discretion is the ability that executors of the law (such as police officers or administrative agencies, in some cases) have to select who they want to enforce laws against. The use of enforcement discretion in an arbitrary way is referred to as selective enforcement or selective prosecution. Historically, selective enforcement is recognised as a sign of tyranny, and an abuse of power, because it violates Rule of Law, allowing men to apply justice only when they choose. Aside from this being inherently unjust, it almost inevitably must lead to favoritism and extortion, with those empowered to choose being able to help their friends, take bribes, and threaten those from whom they desire favors. However, the converse can also be true. Police officer discretion is sometimes warranted for minor offenses, for instance where a warning to a teenager could be quite effective without putting the teen through a legal process which also reduces costs of governmental legal resources. Another example is patrol officers parked on the side of a highway for speed enforcement. It may be impractical and cost prohibitive to ticket everyone who is going any amount over the speed limit, so the officer should watch for the more egregious cases and those drivers who are showing signs of driving recklessly. These cases do give the police judicial power to some degree, but it is not possible for an officer not to use judgement at one level or another." Officer discretion forms part of how the laws are written to allow them to do so. Can the same be said for CCR's?

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2154

10/21/2007 12:12 PM
DJ1, Good info and you ask a valid question. I have to say yes, it does apply to HOA's, we do it daily. But, whether this is legal or not, "who knows". As I posted before it is fast becoming my conviction that any Covenants that is written and maintained by an HOA and they are used in any fashion to manage the property are valid, and out of the states jurisdiction. I won't mention criminal or civil acts, but certainly anything that a city or town can enforce, the HOA can also enforce their rules. In a practical sense I have never seen anything different about HOA or townships, etc. You can't enforce the town laws out side the town, same as HOA's. Everyone uses discretion every day, and some legal or quasi legal opinion will not change that, nor will you get arrested for it. You might get arrested for performing the act but I never heard of anyone getting arrested because he elected to do the deed. If the Board or Homeowner neglect to fullfill these agreed up conditions, they can be made answerable to the other homeowners, who then use their discretion. Oh, and I don't believe our documents are legal untill proven legal, and that may well be a case by case operation. Now, ten people will prove me wrong........woe is me!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1711

10/21/2007 4:59 PM
Quite frankly, I would love to have the citation for the quoted material that DJ provided. Before I evaluate the information, it would help to determine the source.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:456

10/21/2007 6:43 PM
Sorry Michele is was just the Wikipedia description. Wasn't intended as an 'official' source but more a better explanation than I could state. Isn't a matter of evaluating it but feel free.

SusanJ3
(South Carolina)

Posts:61

11/04/2007 1:28 PM
But isn't that often the point? It is never a single incident... There are always the contributing factors, generally that the homeowner has butted heads with the BoD before. That is the sole reason I am being penalized for trying to cure a defect with a poured patio, a subject that bores Ronald to death. But the fact is that the ACC approved the plan before the BoD and I were at loggerheads over a different issue. I don't see why anything has to carry over to anything else. It could also be that the schedule of the carpet men didn't jive with pick up day, but that was that could be offered. I think I could live with this.

SusanJ3
(South Carolina)

Posts:61

11/04/2007 1:44 PM
Jake, I'd appreciate a personal email from you. We are concerned about this very problem in my Myrtle Beach community. Perhaps you can shed some insight to me. Crbbisque@aol.com. Anyone else can email as well.

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