WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/02/2010 11:47 PM |
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This is my first post. Thank you for being here.
I am a board member (two years) of a condo community of a couple hundred or so units.
I joined this forum because some board members are concerned about me discussing community matters with the residents (who are not on the board). And I want to get a handle on this.
Are there any threads on this topic ? It was difficult to find as I could not find effective keywords to search on.
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3526
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| 09/03/2010 3:25 AM |
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| Walter IMO you can discus anything except legal matters and specific violations as long as you make it clear you are not speaking for the Board, unless they authorize you to speak for them. For instance you shouldn't say homeowner's X Y & Z are delinquent however you can say there are three H/O's delinquent for a total amount of $___. If someone asks about a specific violation such as; "How come the Board isn't doing anything about the fuchsia trim on John Smith's house?" You could reply that the Board is aware of it and it is being handled rather than yeah, we're fining the c**p out of him until he repaints. |
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Too bad the only people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and cutting hair. - George Burns |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5035
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| 09/03/2010 5:43 AM |
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Avoid using people's names.
Instead, use the address.
Minutes might say:
"Discussion on paint violation at 1234 Sunshine Street. Motion and passed to write violation letter to owner."
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2010 6:55 AM |
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Walter,
Listen well, and then say that the Board is aware of this, the Board is reviewing this or the Board is taking action on this. You DO NOT discuss any Board business individually with home owners unless it has been cleared by the Board. No single Board member has the authority to give any information out to members unless it has already clearded a Board meeting. If it is a complaint, then you need to follow your HOA rules on dealing with complaints be it thru written filing or otherwise. You will only find yourself in a hearsay situation if you do one on one Board business. |
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SureshD
Posts:0
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| 09/03/2010 9:46 AM |
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Review your docs, rules, bylaws and state laws to see what restrictions exist. There are likely some.
In my state statutes and HOA docs I have yet to find anywhere that says BOD members can't talk to their members regarding non-restricted information IF THEY WANT TO.
If an issiue IS NOT covered by a prohibition then there is no problem with discussing any issue IF YOU WANT TO.
Ask the disgruntled BOD members to show you where it is prohibited (in case it is). But because "that's the way it has been done" is not good enough.
Of course you can't force someone to talk but you shouldn't feel like you're doing something wrong if you do so within the rules. |
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GeraldT4
Posts:1022
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| 09/03/2010 1:04 PM |
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| WalterB3 - What information are you discussing with residents? Dialogue is great, obviously these residents trust you to communicate. However, I would encourage the discussion to occur at an open Board meeting and try to increase attendance at those opportunities. Those posting to your subject are correct in not discussing owners names, or legal matters. Address your fellow Board members concerns since that relationship is critical as well as yours with the community. |
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/03/2010 4:14 PM |
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Walter:
Rather than asking strangers who have no details as to your actions perhaps you should listen to the concerns of your fellow Board members. Perhaps they have cause to be concerned.
My question is why do you feel the need to discuss Board business outside the Board? What does that do for you or what do you think positive comes of it?
I would advise against speaking on some subjects to owners outside the Board as I can see some negative consequences. IMO better to stay away from those areas of discussion and stick to the weather or sports. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2010 5:38 PM |
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I agree with Jon,
There should be no conversations between a Board member and a member about anything pertaining to any Board business outside of a member or Board meeting unless the subject might be directly affecting that member and only after the entire Board has addressed the situation. A Board member is certainly entitled to talk with any member on the street but it should be limited to only general community concerns. Complaints should go to the Board in writting and not to an individual Board member per a street conversation. |
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/03/2010 10:01 PM |
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Thanks for all the varied responses - all helpful to me.
I think DonnaS' approach might be amenable to the other board members. But it seems to me you lose out on benefiting from residents' knowledge. Take a hypothetical example - What if you have a resident who is a painter and has useful comment on a current job. The community loses out if I am restrained from discussing this with him/her. Let's say he doesn't have time to go to a board meeting, but he could spare a few minutes to chat with you.
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JanetB2
(Colorado)
Posts:1334
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| 09/03/2010 11:29 PM |
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Per the example you stated:
What if you have a resident who is a painter and has useful comment on a current job. The community loses out if I am restrained from discussing this with him/her. Let's say he doesn't have time to go to a board meeting, but he could spare a few minutes to chat with you.
I think that would fall under a "general community concern" as Donna demonstrated above. This would be a job that was already discussed and approved at a meeting and currently being performed. If a concerned homeowner approached you that it was not being performed properly and VALID REASON why not being performed properly, you in turn could bring the issue up to other board members, so it could be addressed.
Open communication is important for a close community committment, but be careful not to discuss any individual, financial, or legal issues. Those should always be brought up in an open meeting or in writing to the board. Essentially listen, show concern, but depending on their problem either let them know they need to discuss at the board meeting, put their concern in writing to the board, or if very minor you could bring the problem to the board attention (minor General Community concern only).
Be especially carefull not to discuss a problem one homeowner is having with another homeowner ... this can cause major trouble (someone could claim you are taking sides on the issue). Let them know this issue needs to go before the board and you cannot discuss personal issues with individual homeowners as you must be impartial.
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RichardP13
(California)
Posts:824
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| 09/03/2010 11:32 PM |
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| Outside of issues discussed in Executive Session, which would be privileged and confidential, what atate law or staute prohibits a Board Member speaking to a fellow Member/neighbor about the affairs of THEIR community? |
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/04/2010 6:20 AM |
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| common sense |
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SureshD
Posts:0
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| 09/04/2010 6:29 AM |
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That was my point too Richard.
Such attitudes of "information exclusivity" (beyond what the law(s) require) contribute to a sense of arrogance.
My point to the OP is that regardless of how some people [here and elsewhere] feel THEY need to act, speaking to members about community issues is OK and they should not be intimidated by those who wish to exclude others.
As mentioned NO ONE has provided any examples of laws or similar preventing this.
(beside the exec. sessions, litigation, etc.)
But if a member approaches a BOD member and asks: "How come we don't have the new pool chairs we were promised yet?". Why not answer it?
Of course some communities may have protocol for registering complaints, etc. (which was not mentioned by the OP) so then just tell them HOW to do it properly.
So often we hear about HO apathy and members not geting involved. Such communication is getting involved and should not be limited to just a BOD meeting. Not everyone may be ambulatory or able to attend for any number of reasons.
IN FACT some states (like FLa.) do not GUARANTEE membership the RIGHT TO SPEAK at a BOD meeting unless an item is placed on the agenda by membership petition. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/04/2010 7:07 AM |
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Suresh,
If a board member looks for a state law to guide him in every little action he takes, he'll be spending all his time "looking"!. As Jon said, common sense dictates.
Although I tend to agree with you, I also believe a board member should be careful about what he says when speaking to a member outside a board meeting. He shouldn't bad mouth the board's actions, opine on how the board may act on a certain issue, discuss any confidential info -- just to name a few things. Just because there isn't a state law addressing what he can or cannot say to a member outside a board meeting, doesn't mean he should just "tell all!". |
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/04/2010 8:34 AM |
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None of the members of the Board are spokesman for the Board. But many unit owners will assume one member might speak for the Board when in a one on one discussion. Nor do I wish to have unit owners approaching me for one on one exchanges about their concerns or opinions. We have a process for that and pay an MC to handle such conversations. As Board President I would be concerned something might be said that should not be discussed or perhaps something said might be misinterpreted by the unit owner. Some people hear what they wish to hear not what was said.
And the lack of any state, federal or universal law that prohibits this sort of action does not then make it good practice.
Some things are just not covered under law or regulations. Even in the state of Florida.
Many discussions and exchanges among Board members, the MC or other parties should not be discussed or detailed to unit owners. IMO
As a Board member I don't want to be faced with the situation where a unit owner approaches the Board and say "but David told me _______", this is something that should not occur. As a discussion is repeated the content and details can be changed or become unclear and as a Board member IMO you should NOT contribute to this potential problem.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/04/2010 10:27 AM |
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Thanks for the additional responses - all interesting and helpful.
I do have thoughts on these, but I prefer to listen and learn before making up my own mind.
How about this hypothetical #2. I want to ask the painter his thoughts on a painting contract we have BEFORE it has been voted on ? (Assume he is not bidding). Can we not benefit from his knowledge because this is a "board matter" ? (Again assume he is not interested in attending a board meeting). What are the problems we risk and can't they be easily avoided so we can take advantage of this free advice ?
I am trying to find the boundary here - where to draw that line not to cross.
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/04/2010 11:24 AM |
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Walter,
I don't know what the open meeting laws are in NJ, or even if there are any. However, I would see nothing wrong with you meeting with the painter, one on one, and aking these questions then bringing the info back to the board. When open meeting laws apply, a meeting is generally meant to be a gathering of a quorum of the board. If he would like to come to a board meeting, that would also be fine, but, at least in AZ, it would have to be an open board meeting.
The topic of this thread was board members speaking to HOA members outside of a board meeting. |
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/04/2010 3:55 PM |
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Walter:
Rather than guessing on what could be or might happen lets jump to the concerns your fellow Board members have expressed to you about discussing Baord matters with members of the HOA outside the Board. What discussions are they concerned about? How do you know their concerns? What topics are they addressing?
For some reason they have expressed concerns to you I owuld concentrate on those real matters rather than work through a lsit of situations that may occur and how you would act in each.
Sounds to me like you are trying to find situations that would allow you to discuss Board matters without then having issues with the other members of the Board. IF you continue how do you think that might affect your relationship with your fellow Board members and in the end is that worth it?
Good luck.
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/04/2010 8:02 PM |
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Thanks Mary, Jon.
I would rather not get into the details, but at least one other board members would be happy if I refrained from introducing myself as a board member and talking to residents completely. I don't want to do that and I want to announce my own guidelines. That is why I posted here.
I don't talk with the residents all that much. Mainly because I don't get out on the street that much. But maybe five times in the last year, I have taken a walk to see some issue first hand. For example someone submits an exterior change request. While there, if I see a resident who looks to be not in any particular hurry, I might introduce myself as a board member and ask if he/she has any problems or coments about the community. I figure that this is their community as much as it is mine, and if I am "serving" them, I should take a pulse of the community so to speak. What is their biggest concern (commonly the aount of association dues). What are they happy about. Commonly they will have a particular gripe they want to air out. (I know enough to just listen and understand, and then explain that I am only one board member and he/she needs to direct this to the property manager.)
Generally I find it interesting and pleasant to meet the residents and learn about small details of that I wouldn't even know to ask about. Enjoying the conversation may not be a good reason to speak to residents to the rest of the board, but I do learn things that I think help me understand the issues. Generally I try to keep the information flow coming to me vs the other direction. Because I know the board does not want me revealing board matters. Also I prefer not to let on my own view of things, because I don't want to bias what they feel free to say to me. reall
I also ask for opinions on things like what does he/she think of the recent paint job ? This gets a little iffy. Am I stirring up dissatisfaction in the community ? Is my asking implying something is wrong ? But I think it is not that hard to take a neutral tone and ask in a "just asking" manner.
Okay it gets really tricky here. I have this idea that the community should be invited to participate more in association matters. We have no committtees and I don't think the other board members are keen on having any. (I think they feel that it would divert energy and time to coordinate committees and the they don't need committee input - the property manager, legal counsel and vendors provide sufficient input). I have been asking residents that if we had committees, would they be interested in participating. (leading to this post).
So I may be in a minority opinion. Here' one question: Is there no way to air minority views to residents ? Maybe that minority view could later become a majority view over time. Is there no way to lay tentative ground work just in case just because I am on the board and this would constitute misrereseting the board ? Or fomenting board discord and community unrest ?
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/04/2010 8:37 PM |
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Walter:
So for some reason you'd rather not go into details. Funny, some of us would need details to form an opinion on your situation. I would guess the matter you have sought opinions about has nothing to do with advice from a painter.
For some reason at least one member of your Board would prefer you not to discuss issues with unit owners outside the Board. You seem to think that opinion doesn't apply to you. Anbd you are searching for some justification to green light your actions.
And as you detailed your attempts to "survey" the unit owners as to their willingness to participate if committes were formed suggests to me that you have oversteped your role as a Board member. You understand or assume the Board does not want to form committes but you have taken it upon yourself to sort of test the water any way.
To be frank, I would also suggest you discontinue your discussions outside the Board. If the Board,as a group does not wish to examine committes or other areas than it is not up to you to set a alternate plan just in case you views someday become popular. I would think you run the risk of causing bad feelings with other members of the Board by taking action they seem to be against and promoting "your" agenda rather than that of the entire Board membership.
IF you really wanted to change things IMO the correct way would be to change the feeling on the Board first and then go to the property owners NOT push your view of what's right and proper to the property owners while serving on the Board and ignoring the wishes of your fellow Board members.
IMO you have it backwards. |
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JanetB2
(Colorado)
Posts:1334
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| 09/04/2010 11:01 PM |
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If I understand this is the main concern you have been hinting:
Okay it gets really tricky here. I have this idea that the community should be invited to participate more in association matters. We have no committees and I don't think the other board members are keen on having any. (I think they feel that it would divert energy and time to coordinate committees and they don't need committee input - the property manager, legal counsel and vendors provide sufficient input). I have been asking residents that if we had committees, would they be interested in participating. (leading to this post).
If I am reading between the lines correctly here:
On one side you have the board who enjoys life as it currently runs with a property manager, legal counsel, and possibly vendors performing maintenance, landscaping, etc. and no one has to work at anything else ... life is good for the most part.
On the other side you would like to see more community input or participation. Which is not bad as the more community participation you have, then you will have more individuals willing to help out as board directors or officers down the road as needed.
I actually would like to commend you on the thought of having committees. Having some committees would encourage more community participation and also afford an opportunity to teach other homeowners how your HOA operates. This would give those individuals who are concerned or interested in your community an opportunity to learn and promote having qualified individuals in the future who would be willing to serve as directors or officers.
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/05/2010 5:05 AM |
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Jon,
Thanks for responding. Not what I wanted to hear. But I hear you.
Janet,
Yes, that is right. We could do better. Thank you for clarifying.
And now I am faced with a board that frowns on talking to
residents. And rather that cease, I would like to develop
guidelines for myself (on talking to residents) and present
them to the board (that's my thought anyway).
And now I am making the observation that if you have a minority
view point (eg. use of committees), it seems problematic
to further that "agenda" (as Jon puts it). I guess it is a matter of balance - board unity vs. establishing own voice on the board.
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/05/2010 7:15 AM |
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Walter,
I would suggest that while on a morning walk, if you encounter a member of the HOA it's not necessary to introduce yourself as a board member. I doubt the board would be concerned about you talking to your fellow members as just another member of the HOA. The problem arises when you speak to other members as a board member and proceed to talk about assn business. Asking members what their thoughts are about committees, in a sense, is undermining the adopted policy of a majority of the board (i.e. not to have committees). IMO, a board member should never publically voice their displeasure about a board policy or action even if he/she voted against it. It's important for the BOD to show unity. If the board wants to entertain the idea of appointing committees and would like to know what the members think of it, a survey would be the proper way to find out. Why not suggest writing up a survey to obtain the pulse of the community?
Bottom line: there are better ways to try to convince the board to amend certain practices/policies other than you discussing these issues with members you might meet on the street then relaying to the board how the members feel. I'm sure the board is concerned that you're out there badmouthing them and that is why they have advised you to stop this practice. If you don't, I'm afraid it's going to be an uphill battle to get the board to agree with you about anything as you will be viewed as the board PITA and troublemaker. |
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/05/2010 7:58 AM |
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Walter:
One of the most important components of serving on a Board IMO is the human element. The relationship between all the parties involved along with the MC, vendors, contractors, and the like. ONCE THAT RELATIONSHIP IS ALTERED OR DAMAGED IMO IT IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REPAIR. My saying "if one looks good we all look good." "And of we all work to do our job in a positive way everyone benefits."
IMO it is important if not essential for your fellow Board memebers to feel you are part of a team that is willing to work WITH them not against them. And in life apperances are everything.
Some time ago one poster wrote how she had battled with her Board over I beleive an assessment. She had refused to pay her share and told the Board she was planning to contact the other owners to fight their decision to set an assessment. She had been a member of a committee serving the community and was removed by the Board as a result of her actions against their decisions. What was surprising was how she was tkane back by their actions against her. She didin't connect her actions to theirs.
In physics for each action their is an opposite reaction. Or something like that.
In general in your opinion how has your Board performed? Do you think your property is managed in an acceptable manner?
If so, than what would you hope to gain by pushing an agenda counter to the wishes of at least some other Board members?
One lesson I have learned after serving on my Board for more that 24 years just because YOU believe something is important doesn't result in the other unit owners to agree. Are there any unit owners knocking on the door demanding committees be formed? Is there general satisfaction with the state of your property other than your belief there is a lack of more people being involved?
So lets just say you contntiue to push for committees and in the end no one is interested in joining or forming any. (including your Board) Other than alienating your fellow Board members what have you accomplished?
We have 9 Board members and that would be maybe 4 more than I would like. When you involve more people IMO the process can get slowed down with input and opinions from more parties than IMO necessary.
Many people think everyone can and should be heard on each subject and regarding every decision. I do not share that opinion. I have members of my Board who are not informed enough to make wise decisions due to lack of interest or simply they don't get it. Now throw in several hundred more thoughts, wishes, dreams, and desires and you would have grid lock.
As Mary has suggested I would carefully consider my actions as it would seem to me you have poured gasoline on the bridge between you and at least some of the other members of the Board. Once that flame is ignited it will be difficult to rebuild that bridge or any relationship with those memebrs of the Board if at all possible. I would way the pros vs. the cons and determine if that risk is worth what you view as a reward.
Good luck and I hope your neck of the woods was not hard hit by our passing hurricane or storm. |
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RichardP13
(California)
Posts:824
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| 09/05/2010 9:24 AM |
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Walter
I waited until the "old-timers" put their two cents in. IMO, what you are trying to accomplish is admirable and should be done by more Boards out there. If a few Board Members have a prolem;em with that, so be it. REMEMBER, if you were elected by the Members of the community, your responsibility and accountability lies with them.
Just like anything you do in life, if you choose to bad mouth someone, it tends to end up biting you in the butt at some point in time. As I mentioned before, as long as you don't discuss confidential and privileged information with your neighbor, you have NO problem. Soliciting information from homeowners is actually encouraged by Community Associations Institute. It appears everyone here has taken the stand that the only information you would discuss with residents is confidential and privilege. Do people really think that the position of a Board Member is so special and lofty that it would allow other Board Members to bully other Board Members in turning a deaf ear to residents/homwowners?
At the end of the day, the only people that matter are the ones that put you there in the first place. You made a commitment to them. I applaud you for that. |
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/06/2010 7:22 AM |
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Thanks for those responses, Mary, Jon, and Richard.
Posted By JonD1 on 09/05/2010 7:58 AM
Walter:
So lets just say you contntiue to push for committees and in the end no one is interested in joining or forming any. (including your Board) Other than alienating your fellow Board members what have you accomplished?
That could well happen. But no one knows unless someone tries. You and Mary make a good point that it is best to try to work out the committees issue *with* the board (eg. ask for survey). But if in the end, we can't agree, I am thinking I need to weigh board unity against what I think is best for the community . Richard makes a good point, that ultimately I answer to the voting residents.
I am thinking that there are ways to probe for residents' interest in serving on committees without making the board look bad if I just keep that mindset. Maybe I can just say the that the board has higher priorities right now, but someday we may be able to start one as a test case (stretch the truth a little bit). And I can follow the advice offered here - for example, make it clear to residents that I don't speak for the board.
It is not perfect and the others may not be okay with this, but if I am upfront about this, maybe it would minimize the damage to board unity.
I have to admit I have made at least a couple of the mistakes over the last couple years that you all have warned against on this thread. And I hear about it from the others. But I think I have been reasonable with them.
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JonD1
(New York)
Posts:706
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| 09/06/2010 8:09 AM |
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Walter:
Serving on any Board is a learning expierence. You learn the nuts and bolts of managing the property along with the human factor of dealing with the good and bad of the property owners, your fellow Board members, the MC and outside contractors.
You get to see the entire picture of what is required IF you take your position seriously. It can be quite a demanding job IF done right.
My bottom line on any issue has been simply to ask one question. "What is best for the property?" If you take the time to find that answer you should in most cases do just fine.
Good luck to you Walter and keep us updated on how things are going with you and your property.
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/09/2010 4:18 PM |
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Jon,
Thanks for your perspective. It helps me see where my board is coming from.
All,
I took a shot at creating guidelines for talking to residents based on feedback here, and I got stuck.
It seems that some recommend:
1. Don't identify yourself as a board member. Remain an annoymous board member outside open meetings.
2. Resident input should be gotten through open meetings. And possibly through written surveys.
Is this viable ? Why do some feel this way, but others not ? Is this like the divide between those wired to be conservative and those wired to be liberal ?
I am guessing CAI would promote board members freely engaging residents if they so chose to get the benefits of open communication ? Am I wrong ? Is CAI being naive ? Does its approach only work if the circumstances of the community are right ?
We are a condo community of a few hundred. My board is for the restrictive approach. And may even frown on surveys. The property manager also prefers this approach. He feels that introducing yourself as a board member and directing complaints to him is just a bad idea. He has work to do and is not looking for more complaints to take him away from it. He gets plenty of input talking to residents. But that does not necessarily make its way to the board. Why does CAI not apply here ?
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SureshD
Posts:0
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| 09/09/2010 4:47 PM |
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| If they elected you or go to a meeting then they'll know you are a BOD member. |
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WalterB3
(New Jersey)
Posts:15
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| 09/09/2010 5:22 PM |
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Suresh,
We only get a couple of residents at our open meetings. The point is some people (including my those on my board) feel you should not have contact with residents outside open meetings (introducing yourself as a board member).
Thanks |
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