Flag Poles

We have in our ARB guidelines that flag poles are not permitted and will not be tolerated. Flags however are permitted if they are displayed from a bracket on the side of the house. So far we have two homeowners that have installed flag poles without going through the process of submitting their request through the architectural review board. Our manegment company actually stopped by one of the homeowners house to tell him to stop installing the flag pole and submit an ARB application. They did not submit one...

I know this is a very sensitive subject but how does the board members pursue compliance to displaying the flag without coming off as bad, evil and un-American and not ending up on the 11:00 news? I am as patriotic as the next person but I have followed the "rules" and have proudly been flying the flag for over 2 years everyday!

Any advice would be appreciated if a board has dealt with this subject before.

We are located in Florida.

Thanks!

I am glad this subject came up because several of the homes in our subdivision have installed flag poles (most are not permanent) without permission. I have been on a board before and was chairperson of the ARB and during war times, I did not bother with flags at all and the situation took care of itself. Our rule was that if it wasn't a permanent pole, they didn't need permission. However, the management company did take issue (didn't discuss the situation with the directors until afterwards) and made a lot of people really mad, especially veterans of several wars who live here (we are in Texas).

This is a good time to bring up this issue, Roger, and to see your thoughts about it. I think you are in a different state than Texas. You are right about the rules, etc., but allow me to explain what has happened in our subdivision. I was a stickler for following the rules and expecting homeowners to follow rules and get permission, but they insisted on asking forgiveness instead. What has happened in our subdivision (I am no longer on the Board) is that a clique took over the board--a group of people who were like the group who couldn't handle the word "no". They actually had not been told "no" anyway (because they never asked approval to begin with), but they started defying the rules and regs. For instance, a new director took trim off her house (or her husband did so) and left the rotten exposed underwood there for a year, unpainted, etc.. Because she was a director, the management company overlooked this violation. Further, a resident who owns a restaurant close by and gives free meals to directors and caters free meals to the ladies' club of which several directors (now) are members, he (rest. owner) was able to get by with painting the trim on his house, his garage, his fence, etc., an awful pink and was not cited or dealt with about it--favoritism. Bottomline, now the subdivision is in the midst of an upheaval in which people are running amuke doing what they please, not getting approvals, thumbing their noses at the board, the rules, etc. I certainly can understand why, because it wouldn't set too well with me to get a letter telling me to get approval for a flag pole (permanent or not) while neighbor A has painted a house pink without an application (which color would not have been approved if requested). The president of the last year and a half is actually the reason this is out of control--she prides herself in being one of those free-spirts who thinks that HOAs are a waste of time and her only reason for getting on the board was because she is involved in select interest groups and convinces the management company to sponsor them, i.e. swim team and ladies club. She, visibly, doesn't follow the rules either, as she had trash sitting out way before trash day, and doesn't help to or enforce our deed restrictions, and took the sides with scofflows when they argued after being sent a violation letter.

So, the questions are--are you aware that if a violation is ignored and not dealt with within 4 years that it can be left the way it is; basically the homeowner has won by default? And, are you aware that if you do not require or enforce the deed restrictions (C,C&Rs) to one homeowner, that you cannot enforce them to another? For instance, no one can enforce the rule about flag poles if they have not enforced the rules about everything else. It is not a partial responsibility. Everything must be handled fairly and evenly and all or none. This is why being on a board is such a big responsibility. You must be honest and fair and you must not ask other homeowners to do things you will not do yourself. Believe me, the attitude of the board is causing the downfall of our subdivision. And to show you how bad it is--the president has moved out of the subdivision and her home isn't sold yet. It may take several more months (it's been 4 already) because of the apparent lack of control and lack of enforcement and attitudes of the board. It's also a matter of conflicts of interest and the management company should have been more careful and even now, should carefully choose their battles. It looks like HOA boards are becoming like any other "sport"--battles on and off the field and nobody is the winner--some people don't know the meaning of the words "ethical" or "fair".
Ed R

What do your documents say regarding enforcement? Ours clearly state a specific process for notifying homeowner of violation, and ultimately if they do not comply aftre being notified we can fine them up to $50 per day. If they do not pay, we can file a lien. If they do not pay the lien, we can foreclose. In the end, it is cheaper to remove the violation than pay the fines- get foreclosed on- or hire an attorney.

As well, failure to enforce per our documents (and state laws) does not waive the right to enforce. If a flag pole is put up in violation here and homeowner is not notified for say 2 years...we can still legally pursue compliance.

Good luck!

EdR,

I’m new to the discussion. I agree with everything you have said. I don’t want to be the “bad guy” when it comes to violations, but you can’t uphold the CC&R’s if anyone else has done exactly what they are in violation of.

As nit-picky as it may seem, if you are going to issue a violation letter, there cannot be any discrimination! Am I correct in thinking that your personal beliefs and opinions in set aside? Your main function is to have harmony for you and your community.

Keep us posted. If you aren’t as of yet, I too think you should be on the BOD once again. Your community needs someone with a strong believes to uphold the CC&Rs. You sound as if you can really be of help to your neighborhood.

Good luck
Chuck W.

I agree with Brian regarding enforcing the rules equally.

Our board does not want to enforce our no parking on the street rule which is a CC&R. One member said because the car violated may be a guest.

The CC&R's actually state that no cars including guests will park on the streets. Everyone has three car garages and the same size driveway. There are three parking areas that accomodate a few cars.

Yet they do violate people who park trailers and boats on the street.

If I had a trailer parked on the street and was violated I would quickly point out how I was being descriminated against while they allow all the cars to be parked.

I feel we should also use common sense. The rule applies to workers at the home. Well most companies will not park on your driveway. As a courtesy, so they won't drip oil from their vehicle onto your driveway, they park on the street. And this should be permissible.

Lawn service people have to park on the street because they have equipment trailers attached.

People have parties and their guests have no place to park but on the street. No problem.

That method enforces the rules evenly, and allows some common sense to prevail.

Bill

Good points Harold,

In addition, Arizona SB1055 efffective September 26, 2006 amends 33-1808 to add more flags that cannot be prohibited.

US Army
US Navy
US Air Force
US Marines
US Coast Guard
POW/MIA Flag
Arizona State Flag
Arizona Indian Nations Flag

In addition, the United States Flag Code Title 4 Chapter 1 through 10 covers the display and use of the flag by Civilians and the time and occasions for display, manner of display, etc.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sup_01_4_10_1.html

Naturally the US Flag goes on top. Beyond that I don't see if there is another order, unless the state flag should be immediately below the US flag, and others below it.

Putting all these together, an association can put together a comprehensive set of rules for flags that are allowed by law, so no one can complain about the enforcement.

I believe the associations can set their own rules regarding the location and size of the flagpole.

Bill
Bill

I've seen so many of these situations across the country and in the news that I'm actually starting to consider NOT flying my flag on the specified days. First, if you send the violation notice, you will probably end up on the news, or at least in the local paper, vilified by everyone that feels flying the flag means they are more patriotic than the next person. My suggestion is that the board put out a survey quickly, stating the the flagpoles are in violation, but because they are sensitive to these issues, they want to find out what the owners feel before they act. If the majority of owners feels it's OK to put up a flag pole then change the rule/bylaw that prohibits them. Make sure the new rule restricts the size (someone around here took advantage of a board neglecting that and put up one of those huge flags you usually see at car dealers and the noise of it flapping drove the neighbors crazy)and requires that the owners abide by the Flag Code (Google this). If the majority of owners don't want the poles, you will at least have the backing of the people and when the news truck shows up you can say that 1) you allow the flag to be flown, but that the rules, agreed to by the owner(s) in question when they purchased their home, prohibit poles, and you are very sorry that they chose to break their agreement to abide by those rules. 2) Their neighbors (don't say "association") were asked if they wanted to change those rules about the pole (keep saying pole, not flag) but the majority said no, and as the democratically elected representatives of the owners, you are simply enforcing the standards they want. 3) The owner(s) are free to put their flag in their den, where they can see it more often every day, or to attach it to their house if they want to display it to others, no one is prohibiting them from flying the American flag.

Whenever you have to deal with a sensitive situation its always better to use the words, "neighbors" instead of association (its easy for an angry owner to belittle the association, its harder to be nasty about their neighbors); "personal responsibility" as in "we feel that each owner accepted a personal responsibility to abide by the rules when they moved in"; "democratically elected represntatives" instead of the board; etc.

You still may come out looking bad, but you will have done your job as a board member. Good luck

Joe

I guess what I'm saying is that the rules/bylaws/restrictions, etc, weren't brought down from the mountain carved in stone (as you can see, I'm waiting for the first Ten Commandment display to show up in an HOA), they were drafted, or just copied, by a developer's attorney before the first unit was sold. They may not be a good fit for the people who moved in. Part of any board's job is to listen to their residents, and with an issue that is sure to be controversial, it's the best way to go. Who knows, if 90% of the owners want to put up their own flag pole, you no longer have a problem. Just put some minor controls on it, size, no night lighting (should be taken down at dusk), not tattered, etc. If 90% don't want flag poles, then you know you have the support of the owners.

All too often boards are faced with enforcing rules that are outdated or unwanted or unnecessary. Here in my state, I continue to see condo bylaws that prohibits vans SUV's, Jeeps or pickups from parking anywhere. They were written in the '70's and have never been changed.

Documents are written on paper for a reason, so that they can be changed when the required percentage of owners wants them changed. Make sure that you are willing to enforce those that are written, if you're uncomfortable, then maybe its time for a change.

FYI, you might want to take note of the following:

Senate Passes Flag Measure
Three weeks ago the U.S. House of Representatives passed a measure (H.R. 42) sponsored by Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD) that would prohibit condominium associations, cooperative associations and residential real estate management associations from making rules against displaying the American Flag.

On July 17, the Senate followed suit and passed the measure by a voice vote. The legislation is now on its way to the president and he is expected to sign it.

You may want to look up the particular details. I haven't, but would be curious as to what it says about flag poles.

Joseph,
I can see it now. The law is good--but the problem won't be with the flag itself (at least I don't think so) -- I think it will be with the flagpoles. As usual, Congressional staffers (who are 20-somethings renting a room in the basements of Dupont Circle homes), the ones feeding the info to the congressmen, are not exposed to association living.

Hopefully, this won't be an issue, that everyone will just live together exercising patriotic courtesy.

The flag bill was signed by Pres. Bush this afternoon. 7/24/06

This is the Florida Statue for flags:

720.304 Right of owners to peaceably assemble; display of flag; SLAPP suits prohibited.--

(2) Any homeowner may display one portable, removable United States flag or official flag of the State of Florida in a respectful manner, and on Armed Forces Day, Memorial Day, Flag Day, Independence Day, and Veterans Day may display in a respectful manner portable, removable official flags, not larger than 41/2 feet by 6 feet, which represent the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard, regardless of any declaration rules or requirements dealing with flags or decorations.

(3) Any owner prevented from exercising rights guaranteed by subsection (1) or subsection (2) may bring an action in the appropriate court of the county in which the alleged infringement occurred, and, upon favorable adjudication, the court shall enjoin the enforcement of any provision contained in any homeowners' association document or rule that operates to deprive the owner of such rights.

Basically, the problem is not with the flag but with not receiving a proposal to install a flag bracket-which is an exterior change to the property. That is how I would word the violation letter-that they need to submit for approval for a flag bracket as it changes the exterior of the home.

Good luck! I will be facing the same thing in our neighborhood. One homeowner has mentioned they want to install a free-standing flagpole in the center of their front yard. We are still not quite sure if that will be allowed.