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BarbaraD6
(Florida)

Posts:347

08/30/2010 11:59 AM
THe board needs to define "usual common household pets". What would be your definition. thanks Barbara

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

08/30/2010 12:45 PM
Bbarbara, Dogs,(size or breeds), Domestic Cats, Fish in tanks (limit to Gallons) Common cage birds(no parrots, mynah,etc) No Reptiles. In Florida it has become a huge problem with pet reptiles getting loose and breeding out of control (aka Burmese Pythons) Hamsters, Guinnie pigs, no rats (again, getting loose into the environment. A couple of years ago, a 20 foot python was curled up along I-95 near Miami and he has not been the only ones rescued. Yuk!

MaryA1

Posts:0

08/30/2010 2:46 PM
Donna, Why no parrots? That would mean my beautiful African Grey, Sparky, wouldn't be allowed!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

08/30/2010 8:07 PM
Ah, the simple joy of drawing a line in the sand... and watching everyone argue. Donna gave us a fine start (agree with her opinion or not, she at least tossed it out there). Things to think about adding to the list as acceptable or not acceptable: chickens//duck/geese/game hens/guinea fowl pigs/mini-pigs/pot bellied pigs insects (crickets, for one, were very popular in Japan) horses/mini horses rabbits/hares arachnids crustaceans mollusks amphibians better definition of "common cage bird": Common like "house finch" or common like "normally sold in every pet store" bats/mice/squirrels martins/weasels/ferrets goats

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:3526

08/30/2010 11:12 PM
Here's how our CC&R's define it: Animals and Pets. No animals, rabbits, livestock, fowl or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred or kept in any Unit or Common Elements, except that dogs, cats or other household pets may be kept in Units and shall not be permitted to run loose; subject to the Rules and Regulations, provided that they are not kept, bred or maintained for any commercial purpose. Any such pet causing or creating a nuisance or unreasonable disturbance shall be permanently removed from the property subject to these restrictions upon seven (7) days written notice from the Board of Trustees of the Association. Pets permitted as above shall be leashed or restrained during walking or exercise within the Common Elements. You could also check with the local Zoning Board to see if there are any local ordinances that define what is allowed to be kept. Note one thing missing in ours is snakes and other reptiles which one couple in our building kept; allowing a fragrant stench (think reptile house at the zoo) into the hallway whenever they opened their door.

Too bad the only people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and cutting hair. - George Burns

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

08/31/2010 3:17 PM
Mary, My Florida next door had 2 Africans who she kept in the house and always with doors closed. What nice birds! Then a couple of doors down, her African Grey swore, screemed like a raped ape and wolf whistled. He could be heard for 2 holes away on the golf course. Needless to say, the screaming did him in with the Board. Either he stayed indoors OR he got the boot. They now keep him indoors which is a shame in beautiful S. Florida weater. The moral of the story is-----Don't teach the bird to scream and swear.

MaryA1

Posts:0

08/31/2010 6:21 PM
Donna, I never could understand why some people are bent on teaching their parrot to swear. Sparky has lived with us for 22 years and has never uttered a swear word. I won't say he's never heard one but I guess he doesn't like the sound of a bad word. LOL These greys are so smart, it's absolutely unbelievable. Sparky has a vocabulary of over 200 words and phrases. He does a number of whistles too, including the wolf whistle which, in fact, is a natual whistle for greys. Some birds are natural screamers -- macaws and cockatoos to name a few. Sparky doesn't scream but he does a whistle that's really nerve wracking. Yes, it is a shame the bird must be kept indoors, especially in FL. Sparky loves being outside and doesn't even want to come in when the temp gets to 100!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

08/31/2010 7:31 PM
Glen, two things I see "wrong" with the regulation you shared (and many many others i have experienced in the past, not just the one you provided): the undefined and vague "household pet" clause (ie, a household pet is what, exactly? anything i can fit into my house and call a pet? potbellied pigs? shetland ponies? what is a household pet?) and the ban on any animal NOT a dog, cat or household pet. given that people are animals, are they banned? and if you allow an exemption for that animal, what criteria do you have to ban others? My first argument to the board would be "You allow that animal to live in the HOA, but not this one. show me the rule that allows that one to be exempted."

JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:1334

09/01/2010 1:14 PM
Brian is right ... there are certain rules that should not be in place which could discriminate in any way. As long as a pet is legal within the city and properly controlled per city or HOA ordinances/rules, then individuals should have the right to own. When making rules and regulations everyone needs to please consider what "personal or property rights" may be violated. Some rules are getting out of control trying to tell grown adults what they can and cannot have within the walls of their personal property which they OWN and paid alot of money to obtain. Just because members may not particularly like certain animals does not give the right to discriminate against those who do and may want to own. Any rules should benefit everyone equally.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

09/01/2010 3:09 PM
To argue JanetB2's statement, however; when you voluntarily join an HOA (ie, sign a contract with them), you agree to forego many of your rights, in order to enjoy the benefits of the HOA. Among those rights can be to abide by more restrictive rules on any number of things that might otherwise be "legal" had you not given up said rights in entering the contract. In another thread, it was wisely pointed out by another member that far too many people have no basic understanding of this concept, and what it means to enter into a privatized democracy like an HOA. It is only too late that they realize what rights they have given up for ownership in the HOA.

JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:1334

09/01/2010 8:51 PM
To argue BrianB that is one reason I asked that everyone please consider everyone's rights. The problem many times in an HOA is you agree to initial documents, then have those who try to impose their "personal" ideas of what might constitute a "proper pet" and ignore individual rights or current city ordinances. This is morally and ethically wrong. It is one thing to agree to something initially when you purchase in an HOA and another to have something imposed upon someone's property rights down the road by individuals only considering their own personal preferences instead of the overall picture. However, I agree that many do not realize until too late the rights they may give up when purchasing property in an HOA. In the future would I again purchase a home in an HOA ... probably NOT.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

09/02/2010 7:23 AM
As Janet is pointing out, rules in an HOA can change... one of the things that most folks don't realize when they enter the contract is that the rules can be changed, sometimes by a simply majority, sometimes by even less. It all underscores the importance of knowing not only the rules as they are written when you enter the contract (No pets allowed except X, Y, and Z), but also understand how easily the rules can be changed (No rule or regulation in this code may be changed unless a 4/5th majority of homeowners approves) (Rules may be modified by a simple majority of the board or any committee having jurisdiction over the regulation after a suitable period of public review and comment).

BarbaraD6
(Florida)

Posts:347

09/02/2010 8:24 AM
Brian and Janet, Please get back to what the question of the post is. thanks Barbara

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

09/02/2010 11:25 AM
Per your request: You asked, essentially, for a definition of usual and common Any living animal, not otherwise illegal to own/keep by zoning, city, county, state or federal law, that is owned by at least 5% of the Population of the United States, per the most recently available US Census data.

SureshD

Posts:0

09/02/2010 11:55 AM
Source?

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

09/02/2010 12:43 PM
Brian, "Per the most recently available U.S. census data?" Geez, I cannot remember that question on my census form.

JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:1334

09/02/2010 12:51 PM
As I stated most anything the municipality you live allows per their ordinances, unless disallowed by your HOA. Federal Public Housing states it as: Common household pet means: (1) For purposes of Housing programs: A domesticated animal, such as a dog, cat, bird, rodent (including a rabbit), fish, or turtle, that is traditionally kept in the home for pleasure rather than for commercial purposes. Common household pet does not include reptiles (except turtles). If this definition conflicts with any applicable State or local law or regulation defining the pets that may be owned or kept in dwelling accommodations, the State or local law or regulation shall apply. This definition shall not include animals that are used to assist persons with disabilities. Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/5-306-definitions-19925557

BrianB
(California)

Posts:2381

09/02/2010 3:54 PM
Posted By DonnaS on 09/02/2010 12:43 PM Brian, "Per the most recently available U.S. census data?" Geez, I cannot remember that question on my census form. every census changes things, but there was data from the census bureau on pet ownership from the 2000 census (although the website is currently under change because of the 2010 census data coming in, it is no longer available by the link i used to use for it, i checked it today and the info/link is gone). Federal Public Housing states it as: Common household pet means: (1) For purposes of Housing programs: A domesticated animal, such as a dog, cat, bird, rodent (including a rabbit), fish, or turtle, that is traditionally kept in the home for pleasure rather than for commercial purposes. Common household pet does not include reptiles (except turtles). If this definition conflicts with any applicable State or local law or regulation defining the pets that may be owned or kept in dwelling accommodations, the State or local law or regulation shall apply. This definition shall not include animals that are used to assist persons with disabilities. This is interesting as well, for many reasons: Domesticated animal would preclude many animals that are sometimes considered pets, such as monkeys, ferrets, apes/chimps, some bird species (parrots are not truly domesticated, for example, nor are many parakeets, while some species are), etc.. But, i have never seen a domesticated fish or turtle, but they are allowed, it seems. This Federal rule states that conflicting local rules would apply, so if a local regulation ALLOWED snakes, then the fed rule would have too. kind of unusual. and although this states rodents are allowed, you still get stuck on the domesticated portion... so you can have a rabbit (even if it isn't domesticated?), as well as white mice and rats, but not a squirrel, nor non-domesticated rats or mice. Reptiles are excluded, except turtles, which is odd, because relatively few people ever keep turtles. Most people who have shelled reptiles as pets have tortoises or terrapins, which are not allowed by this law, apparently. It appears as long as you keep it in an water-filled aquarium, the Feds are okay with it. But, no snakes, no lizards, no fence swifts or geckos. No insects (crickets) or spiders (tarantulas) or hermit crabs in the house. And, no shrimp, horseshoe crabs, lobsters or clams/oysters/squid/octupus in your aquaria either. Just fish and turtles.

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