Solar Panels

AllenH1 (New York)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Our community is trying to work through the solar panle issue. Are there any developments in New York that have done so? Do solar panels affect property values -- not the value of the property with the panels, but someone else's property (someone who has to look at the panles)? Are there any studies, data, etc.?

Thank you. We are trying to do the right thing for our children, country, and planet and any help, information, advice, etc. is greatly appreciated.

ShellyH1 (Indiana)
Posts: 1

Posted:

We are working thru this too in our HOA - nothing official has been said yet but there is a proposed bill that is waiting approval in the senate - HR 2454 (environmental bill) that has a section 209 in it that basically states it is unlawful for an HOA to interrupt or delay a homeowner from installing solar panels. Again, per my local rep this was supposed to go the senate to be voted on this summer but I believe has not yet. If it get's approved and Obama signs it - there is really nothing an HOA can do. You can check out this link to see it for yourselves.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2454

Go to full text option and then search for Section 209 which is called "SEC. 209. PROHIBITION OF RESTRICTIONS ON RESIDEN- TIAL INSTALLATION OF SOLAR ENERGY SYS-
TEM."

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Whether they affect property values or not, in AZ, solar panels cannot be prohibited. Check your state laws b/4 going any further with this! Laws applying to solar panels may NOT be in the HOA statutes, you may have to check through all the state laws.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Allen,

You might as well get used to the idea that there WILL be solar panels someplace in your view. My husband works for a solar lighting company as an engineer. They are doing hundreds of thousands of lights for military, hospitals, shopping malls, police stations, Haiti, Afghanistan, Africa---------need I say more? It will be a way of life soon.

TinoS (California)
Posts: 85

Posted:

I am in favor of solar panels. I've been posting recently about amending our CC&Rs to do a Rental Restriction but eventually we will also do another amendment or a complete CC&R rewrite and at that time I want to make sure we deal with solar panels, because as DonnaS says they are coming whether you like it or not. (and I look forward to getting them when the price drops and makes sense economically).

Our Common Interest Development townhouses share flat roofs. Our roofs are defined as a common area that the HOA is responsible for and the CC&Rs prohibit owners from construction of any structures on the common area. This has not stopped some owners from putting in skylight domes, and attaching satellite dishes that are out of site. But the board has been concerned about how this effects the integrity of the roof and the liability of the association if something blows off the roof and causes damage. And as mentioned the board has to worry about whether the roof itself is damaged by the mounting hardware that breaks into the roofing material, as this will cause leaks into the inside of the homes which the HOA is responsible to repair. Oh, and also the liability when a service person climbs on to the roof, too.

As mentioned there are state and federal laws coming that will override CC&R restrictions so I would like to know the latest thinking about how CC&Rs should deal with this to allow an owner to put up solar panels but at the same time make the owner fully responsible for them and the damage they may cause to the roof or the liability if they fall.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Tino,

All good points. For information to others, the new solar panel collectors are getting smaller each day. They now come in a couple of colors so they are less onvious in their looks and their life expectancy is increasing as well. Once you get a nice return on their wattage collection, one can sell that back to your utility company and make them pay for themselves.

But because people are people in a HOA situation, I agree with Tino, that anyone installing the panels on common property should be made responsible for any damage and problems with whatever structure they are fixed to. They MUST be installed with the correct orientation to the sun so limiting the collectors to a certain location may not always be feasable. Knowing that, a HOA cannot require them to be installed where they would not be effective.

AllenH1 (New York)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks for the info, but what I really need are some contacts in HOAs that have solar panels. I'm looking to ascertain if solar panels affect property values - not the value of the home that has the panels, but surrounding homes that can see them. Thank you very much.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Allen,

I suggest you speak to a real estate appraiser. Otherwise you are only going to get opinions.

AllenH1 (New York)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Understood, but we're looking for both. I know it's anecdotal, but we need to show that the world doesn't end if a roof has panels on it, that people get used to them like everything else. Thank you again very much.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Allen,

I see your concern differently. Who cares if someone can see a solar panel and because they are not considered as a permant installation, how could they possibly affect property values if someone across the street sees them.

Around here, if someone goes green or makes a big impact on the environment, it makes the newspaper as "Look What They Did" The solar use is coming faster than you think and to be already in the solar loop will lower utility bills as the systems are getting lower in price each day. The panels are certainly something that would lower property values. Read some of the posts history here and see what you should be concerned with and you will not find solar panels on the list.

AllenH1 (New York)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks. We are on the same page - I'm a forner Board member who along with some others want to put up solar panels. Unfortunately we have a very difficult Board. Accordingly we're trying every which way to educate, research, rebut, etc. Thank you all very much. This is a very helpful place.

TinoS (California)
Posts: 85

Posted:

Beyond people's opinions about whether solar panels lower property values because of the way they look, there are the issues of 1) what they do to the integrity of the roofs and 2) the adding of liability for the association, both when someone is climbing on the roof to install or service them, and if parts were to fall off for any reason.

How should a CC&R be written to deal with solar panels?

For example if the board allows someone to put up solar panels on the common area of the townhouse and the board makes us some document that the owner casually signs to accept responsibility for it, what happens when they sell the unit? How is this responsibility transferred to the new owner?

Or what happens when a workman is servicing the unit but injures himself as he is climbing up to the roof?

Or who is responsible when the bolts that attach the panel frames to the roof develop leaks around them and the leak damage is not found for a few years and it has spread to other areas of the roof?

I want solar panels some day. I'd like to get this option built into our CC&Rs when they are rewritten at some point.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

I think just like in many situations the government or powers to be make a judgment and then leave the details and reality of putting that into real life up to those left holding the bag.

Yes you can't prevent someone from installing a solar panel but what about all the issues left unanswered.

What size?
What color?
Location?
Insurance risk?
Roof warranty?
Location of necessary wiring?
Transfer with ownership of liability?
Cost of removal?

Just a few that come to mind.

In my mind there would be many issues to determine and IMO to address each completly would be difficult at best for an uninformed Board to accomplish. Unless you were to have a solar panel expert, insurance expert, structural engineer expert, serving on your Board? This would leave many unaddressed areas that would be the source of legal contentionm for years to come.

If and when you examine an issue those with a brain would look at all the possibilities and complications beforehand rather than after the fact. But in governement that is NOT standard operating procedure. Passing a law and imposing restrictions on those living in HOA/Condos is the easy part. The more difficult part IMO is dealing with the day to day issues caused by this good intentioned ruling.

IMO this would be and is now becoming a huge can of worms.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

FYI, following are the AZ state laws with regard to solar panels. The first one is the HOA statute prohibiting an HOA from prohibiting the installation of a solar energy device. The second is the regulatory statute. I think a lot of your concerns are answered by these statutes.

33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.

B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.

C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.

44-1762. Solar energy device warranties; installation standards; inspections

A. The collectors, heat exchangers and storage units of a solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state, and the installation, shall be warranted for a period of at least two years. The remaining components of the solar energy device and their installation shall be warranted for a period of at least one year.

B. Any person who manufactures, furnishes for installation or installs a solar energy device shall provide with such device a written statement of warranty, responsibilities assumed or disclaimed and performance data of the solar energy device and components of the solar energy device. The form of the statement required by this subsection is subject to approval by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce. The registrar of contractors shall adopt rules governing the readability and understandability of the statement. The statement shall specify the source of any performance data it contains. A copy of the statement shall be delivered to the registrar of contractors where it shall be kept on public file.

C. A person who sells a solar energy device in this state shall furnish a certificate to the buyer that the solar energy device complies with the requirements of this section.

D. A solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state shall comply with any consumer protection, rating, certification, performance, marking, installation and safety standards that have been adopted by the department of commerce.

E. An individual who installs a solar energy device in this state, in addition to being a licensed solar contractor under title 32, chapter 10, article 4, shall:

1. Possess the general license that is appropriate to the type of solar energy device that is installed. Installers of a solar water heater or a photovoltaic device shall possess an appropriate contractor's license.

2. Meet any education and training standards that have been adopted by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce.

3. Pass an examination on the installation of the type of device to be installed, if the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce has adopted such an examination.

F. Solar energy devices that are designed or installed by the final owner are exempt from the requirements of subsections A through E.

G. The installation of a solar energy device shall meet the requirements of:

1. All applicable fire, safety and building codes.

2. Consumer protection standards, including freeze protection and temperature related damage standards adopted by the department of commerce.

3. All other applicable federal, state and local laws.

H. Solar energy devices are subject to random inspections by the registrar of contractors. Installers who fail to meet safety, installation or other prescribed standards are subject to disciplinary action under title 32, chapter 10, article 3.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

FYI, following are the AZ state laws with regard to solar panels. The first one is the HOA statute prohibiting an HOA from prohibiting the installation of a solar energy device. The second is the regulatory statute. I think a lot of your concerns are answered by these statutes.

33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.

B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.

C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.

44-1762. Solar energy device warranties; installation standards; inspections

A. The collectors, heat exchangers and storage units of a solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state, and the installation, shall be warranted for a period of at least two years. The remaining components of the solar energy device and their installation shall be warranted for a period of at least one year.

B. Any person who manufactures, furnishes for installation or installs a solar energy device shall provide with such device a written statement of warranty, responsibilities assumed or disclaimed and performance data of the solar energy device and components of the solar energy device. The form of the statement required by this subsection is subject to approval by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce. The registrar of contractors shall adopt rules governing the readability and understandability of the statement. The statement shall specify the source of any performance data it contains. A copy of the statement shall be delivered to the registrar of contractors where it shall be kept on public file.

C. A person who sells a solar energy device in this state shall furnish a certificate to the buyer that the solar energy device complies with the requirements of this section.

D. A solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state shall comply with any consumer protection, rating, certification, performance, marking, installation and safety standards that have been adopted by the department of commerce.

E. An individual who installs a solar energy device in this state, in addition to being a licensed solar contractor under title 32, chapter 10, article 4, shall:

1. Possess the general license that is appropriate to the type of solar energy device that is installed. Installers of a solar water heater or a photovoltaic device shall possess an appropriate contractor's license.

2. Meet any education and training standards that have been adopted by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce.

3. Pass an examination on the installation of the type of device to be installed, if the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce has adopted such an examination.

F. Solar energy devices that are designed or installed by the final owner are exempt from the requirements of subsections A through E.

G. The installation of a solar energy device shall meet the requirements of:

1. All applicable fire, safety and building codes.

2. Consumer protection standards, including freeze protection and temperature related damage standards adopted by the department of commerce.

3. All other applicable federal, state and local laws.

H. Solar energy devices are subject to random inspections by the registrar of contractors. Installers who fail to meet safety, installation or other prescribed standards are subject to disciplinary action under title 32, chapter 10, article 3.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

FYI, following are the AZ state laws with regard to solar panels. The first one is the HOA statute prohibiting an HOA from prohibiting the installation of a solar energy device. The second is the regulatory statute. I think a lot of your concerns are answered by these statutes.

33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.

B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.

C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.

44-1762. Solar energy device warranties; installation standards; inspections

A. The collectors, heat exchangers and storage units of a solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state, and the installation, shall be warranted for a period of at least two years. The remaining components of the solar energy device and their installation shall be warranted for a period of at least one year.

B. Any person who manufactures, furnishes for installation or installs a solar energy device shall provide with such device a written statement of warranty, responsibilities assumed or disclaimed and performance data of the solar energy device and components of the solar energy device. The form of the statement required by this subsection is subject to approval by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce. The registrar of contractors shall adopt rules governing the readability and understandability of the statement. The statement shall specify the source of any performance data it contains. A copy of the statement shall be delivered to the registrar of contractors where it shall be kept on public file.

C. A person who sells a solar energy device in this state shall furnish a certificate to the buyer that the solar energy device complies with the requirements of this section.

D. A solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state shall comply with any consumer protection, rating, certification, performance, marking, installation and safety standards that have been adopted by the department of commerce.

E. An individual who installs a solar energy device in this state, in addition to being a licensed solar contractor under title 32, chapter 10, article 4, shall:

1. Possess the general license that is appropriate to the type of solar energy device that is installed. Installers of a solar water heater or a photovoltaic device shall possess an appropriate contractor's license.

2. Meet any education and training standards that have been adopted by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce.

3. Pass an examination on the installation of the type of device to be installed, if the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce has adopted such an examination.

F. Solar energy devices that are designed or installed by the final owner are exempt from the requirements of subsections A through E.

G. The installation of a solar energy device shall meet the requirements of:

1. All applicable fire, safety and building codes.

2. Consumer protection standards, including freeze protection and temperature related damage standards adopted by the department of commerce.

3. All other applicable federal, state and local laws.

H. Solar energy devices are subject to random inspections by the registrar of contractors. Installers who fail to meet safety, installation or other prescribed standards are subject to disciplinary action under title 32, chapter 10, article 3.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

FYI, following are the AZ state laws with regard to solar panels. The first one is the HOA statute prohibiting an HOA from prohibiting the installation of a solar energy device. The second is the regulatory statute. I think a lot of your concerns are answered by these statutes.

33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.

B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.

C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.

44-1762. Solar energy device warranties; installation standards; inspections

A. The collectors, heat exchangers and storage units of a solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state, and the installation, shall be warranted for a period of at least two years. The remaining components of the solar energy device and their installation shall be warranted for a period of at least one year.

B. Any person who manufactures, furnishes for installation or installs a solar energy device shall provide with such device a written statement of warranty, responsibilities assumed or disclaimed and performance data of the solar energy device and components of the solar energy device. The form of the statement required by this subsection is subject to approval by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce. The registrar of contractors shall adopt rules governing the readability and understandability of the statement. The statement shall specify the source of any performance data it contains. A copy of the statement shall be delivered to the registrar of contractors where it shall be kept on public file.

C. A person who sells a solar energy device in this state shall furnish a certificate to the buyer that the solar energy device complies with the requirements of this section.

D. A solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state shall comply with any consumer protection, rating, certification, performance, marking, installation and safety standards that have been adopted by the department of commerce.

E. An individual who installs a solar energy device in this state, in addition to being a licensed solar contractor under title 32, chapter 10, article 4, shall:

1. Possess the general license that is appropriate to the type of solar energy device that is installed. Installers of a solar water heater or a photovoltaic device shall possess an appropriate contractor's license.

2. Meet any education and training standards that have been adopted by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce.

3. Pass an examination on the installation of the type of device to be installed, if the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce has adopted such an examination.

F. Solar energy devices that are designed or installed by the final owner are exempt from the requirements of subsections A through E.

G. The installation of a solar energy device shall meet the requirements of:

1. All applicable fire, safety and building codes.

2. Consumer protection standards, including freeze protection and temperature related damage standards adopted by the department of commerce.

3. All other applicable federal, state and local laws.

H. Solar energy devices are subject to random inspections by the registrar of contractors. Installers who fail to meet safety, installation or other prescribed standards are subject to disciplinary action under title 32, chapter 10, article 3.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

FYI, following are the AZ state laws with regard to solar panels. The first one is the HOA statute prohibiting an HOA from prohibiting the installation of a solar energy device. The second is the regulatory statute. I think a lot of your concerns are answered by these statutes.

33-1816. Solar energy devices; reasonable restrictions; fees and costs

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the installation or use of a solar energy device as defined in section 44-1761.

B. An association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the placement of a solar energy device if those rules do not prevent the installation, impair the functioning of the device or restrict its use or adversely affect the cost or efficiency of the device.

C. Notwithstanding any provision of the community documents, the court shall award reasonable attorney fees and costs to any party who substantially prevails in an action against the board of directors of the association for a violation of this section.

44-1762. Solar energy device warranties; installation standards; inspections

A. The collectors, heat exchangers and storage units of a solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state, and the installation, shall be warranted for a period of at least two years. The remaining components of the solar energy device and their installation shall be warranted for a period of at least one year.

B. Any person who manufactures, furnishes for installation or installs a solar energy device shall provide with such device a written statement of warranty, responsibilities assumed or disclaimed and performance data of the solar energy device and components of the solar energy device. The form of the statement required by this subsection is subject to approval by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce. The registrar of contractors shall adopt rules governing the readability and understandability of the statement. The statement shall specify the source of any performance data it contains. A copy of the statement shall be delivered to the registrar of contractors where it shall be kept on public file.

C. A person who sells a solar energy device in this state shall furnish a certificate to the buyer that the solar energy device complies with the requirements of this section.

D. A solar energy device that is sold or installed in this state shall comply with any consumer protection, rating, certification, performance, marking, installation and safety standards that have been adopted by the department of commerce.

E. An individual who installs a solar energy device in this state, in addition to being a licensed solar contractor under title 32, chapter 10, article 4, shall:

1. Possess the general license that is appropriate to the type of solar energy device that is installed. Installers of a solar water heater or a photovoltaic device shall possess an appropriate contractor's license.

2. Meet any education and training standards that have been adopted by the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce.

3. Pass an examination on the installation of the type of device to be installed, if the registrar of contractors after consultation with the department of commerce has adopted such an examination.

F. Solar energy devices that are designed or installed by the final owner are exempt from the requirements of subsections A through E.

G. The installation of a solar energy device shall meet the requirements of:

1. All applicable fire, safety and building codes.

2. Consumer protection standards, including freeze protection and temperature related damage standards adopted by the department of commerce.

3. All other applicable federal, state and local laws.

H. Solar energy devices are subject to random inspections by the registrar of contractors. Installers who fail to meet safety, installation or other prescribed standards are subject to disciplinary action under title 32, chapter 10, article 3.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Mary:

As the OP and I reside in NY the regulations in AZ. while interesting don't apply.

But having read all four copies of those you provided I find most of them nothing more than political boilerplate designed to give the appearance the issues were covered and some thought was made to address the arising issues.

As to the installer if they comply with all the regulations and provide the necessary documentation and then go out of business what are those papers or promises worth?

Lets say you have a multi-story building with one roof area who gets to install their panels? Ane the remaining units where does that leave them?

Say the owner of the first floor unit plans to install panels now we need to run electrical connections from the roof to the unit do we now allow this wiring to go through the units of others? Where and how should these connections be run?

And lets throw in one more. With the different roofing materials you will run into issues with the warranties on roofing materials after you have allowed penetrations to fasten your new solar panels. Shingles, slate, metal roofs all are put at risk when punctured. So lets say you have a roof 18 years old, most roofs depending on the area might give you 20 years if you are lucky. Now your roof is getting to the point it will need to be replaced. But resident A decides now is the time for their new solar panels. Do you allow them to be installed? Do you force the owner to wait till the roofing is replaced? And if you have panels already in place who will remove them? Who will insure their safety when removed? And finally and most important who will cover the cost to remove them to allow for the new roof to be put down?

I would guess many roofers would tell you the warranty on their roofs would be voided if you allow multiple penetrations of their roofing material. I would also guess many roofers would not want to move or relocate these panels during a roofing job. And I would guess they are less than qualified to re-install the panels after the roof is completed. Nor would the panel installers want someone tinkering with their original installations.

I didin't see any af these issues covered under those documents you provided.

Again, in IMO there are many issues that would need to be settled and policies in place BEFORE you determine this is now the way to go.

In states where there is no set policy that would require the Board to address these issues a huge undertaking as most have no knowledge of the issues at hand.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Jon,

When a professional solar installation is contracted for, solar panels or collectors as we call them, when installed, now days, they are not nescessarily bolted or holes drilled into roofs to have them work. That is why anyone looking to buy a system, needs to have the experts do the install.

You can buy panels at Northern Tool or Home Depot. That is where people will run into garbage systems and installers. There are systems with panels and lights all in one. There are systems that will work under less than perfect situations. Be aware that anyone buying a system should do their homework and look into proper installs.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Jon,

First of all, I am aware that you and the OP are in NY and that AZ laws do not apply! I copied the AZ statutes as an FYI -- nothing more.

Secondly, I can understand that a condo assn might need guidelines considering the panels would most likely be installed on a roof that is owned by the HOA. However, in a planned community the roof is owned by the property owner and if it is damaged that is of no concern to the HOA. My assn's "Arichetectural Change Request" form contains the following disclaimer: "Neither the Architectural Review Committee, BOD, nor HOA shall assume any liability in connection with or related to approved or disapproved improvements. An approved submittal does not in any way constitute an approval of the structural integrity of the improvement nor its effect upon the existing structure and landscaping drainage." The form also contains the following statement: "The homeowner agrees to maintain the improvement if approved by the BOD or their duly appointed representative. If, in the view of the BOD, the iprovement is not being maintained, the assn has the right to remove or maintain the improvement with the homeowner bearing all costs. The homeowner agrees to comply with all ity, county and state laws and obtain all necessary permits." I think these two statements say it all and there is no need for any additional written rules with regard to installing solar panels which is already regulated by state law.

Lastly, IMO, your concerns perhaps should be addressed in rules of a condo assn especially if there are no state laws covering solar panels or if applicable state laws are lacking. However, additional rules may not be needed for a planned community.