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RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/02/2006 3:05 PM
Posted By WilliamT on 11/02/2006 1:45 PM Ronald, ......... That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of. That's the tricky part. Our welcoming committee isn't really functioning. When I moved in, there was a gentleman about my age who walked the neighborhood for exercise. He stopped by one day when I was working in my garage unpacking and introduced himself we talked for a while and had common backgrounds. A few days later he dropped by with a "condensed" version of the CC&Rs (nothing I hadn't already read). My next door neighbor on the other hand, claims that someone came by shortly after they had moved in, handed them some papers and said "here's the rules". I suspect she's exaggerating, but it's a little touchy meeting someone for the first time and "handing them the rules". If you've got any suggestions to make it easier or more pleasant, please let me know.

Ron SC

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

11/02/2006 4:38 PM
this is an excellent example of a common problem... by the time ANY welcoming committee can meet and greet, it's really too late for the new homeowner. they have already bought their home, and "agreed" to the rules. granted, the welcome meeting can help set the tone of the HOA, and is a great idea, but it doesn't solve the "if i had known that rule, i would have never bought..." problem. (or the converse "Why did you buy if you didn't like the rules"....)

hoatalk

Posts:487

11/02/2006 4:55 PM
Posted By BrianB on 11/02/2006 4:38 PM by the time ANY welcoming committee can meet and greet, it's really too late for the new homeowner. they have already bought their home, and "agreed" to the rules. Brian, Good point. One solution our community website customers use is to post governing documents on the public portion of their websites. Some communities also have exit signs with the website address so potential buyers, Realtors and owners will know what the website address is. Here's one of our customer's websites with a public Documents section: www.LakesideAtValVista.com You will also note the Terms of Use link at the bottom spells out that the documents may not be perfect (for liability concerns).

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WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489

11/03/2006 6:03 AM
A few days ago MikeS1 posted this info on welcome baskets. " The welcome basket consists of a plastic utility basket, a flashlight, a candle, an inexpensive tackhammer set and picture hangers, along with the magnet holding contact phone numbers for essential services, as well as UM Committees and information." "http://www.unionmills.com/documents/welcome.pdf has a welcome letter that MikeS1 also directed us to. The committee can get gift $10 certificates from local restaurants that the restaurants should be happy to give free in order to draw new customers. We are just starting up our welcome committee. A lady who is experienced in welcoming committees is going to head it and I will be getting together with her to help set up a package. As Brian said, this is after the fact of the owner buying in the community, but it is no less important. If the owner didn't know about the CC&'R's and Rules because it was buried in the paper stack from the Title company, then the Welcome committee can help to bridge that gap and work as a laison with the board to help develop solutions for the home owner. This contact gives the home owner an ally, and will make them feel more comfortable and welcome into the community. While they may lose their disagreement over whatever violation they moved in with, the end result should be that they understand why the violation, and since they had people working with them in an understanding manner, the pill should be easier to swallow. Buying a home takes a lot of energy and the buyer is inundated with things to do, so it is not uncommon for a homebuyer, especially a first time buyer to not have a clue as to what the CC&R's are, unless someone has told them beforehand. Arizona has cured that problem. Now home buyers must sign a statement that they are aware of the Bylaws and CC&R's before closing escrow.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/03/2006 6:09 AM
Posted By hoatalk on 11/02/2006 4:55 PM ........... One solution our community website customers use is to post governing documents on the public portion of their websites. Some communities also have exit signs with the website address so potential buyers, Realtors and owners will know what the website address is. Here's one of our customer's websites with a public Documents section: www.LakesideAtValVista.com You will also note the Terms of Use link at the bottom spells out that the documents may not be perfect (for liability concerns). We have the "short version" on our website and an offer to e-mail the complete set, but I suspect someone who fails to ask for a hard copy before they make an offer on a house will also fail to check the website. We're working on new signs to notify residents of changed (holliday) trash pickup days and I thought about posting the website also. It's good to know that others are doing it.

Ron SC

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

11/03/2006 4:49 PM
not sure i would go so far to say we (in arizona) solved the problem... requiring one more signature in the home buying process may not be the miracle pill consumers need. But it does go along the line of what i think we need, which is a mandated legal process that holds someone accountable for education and presenting the pros/cons of HOA life to a prospective buyer. I have no idea how, by the way... the law AZ passed is one step, at least it holds the buyer accountable, even if the form is in among hundreds of others needing his speedy signature. I can't imagine us actually mandating time to read and THINK about the consequences during the process, so this may be the best we get. I hope it's a step in the right direction. I also love the welcome committee ideas, the web sites, etc.. they are not all proactive, but they certainly work to stop about 50% of the common problems, i bet, with new owners (not knowing about dues, where to mail, due dates, rules, etc.). I applaud those with active plans along these lines. I wish my own HOA did... which means, i better get my butt in gear, since I am the board, basically.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:818

11/04/2006 3:04 AM
VirginiaC, Great post! I have been reading the responses as they have been posted and I would have to agree with the majority of what has been posted. It, perhaps may be very rare or uncommon to have or to see a cat on a leash but not Bizarre! My CC&Rs state “all pet”. These are written in this way to eliminate any discrepancy a homeowner my have. You here about these grey areas all the time, well they didn’t say my, turtle, frog, ferret, or pigeon. It is summarized as “pets” Like the majority of the CC&R and by-laws written are not in black and white they are intended to be interpretive as a shady grey. My opinion was confirmed after reading the article posted by HOATalk (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=1&acatid=214&aid=105) Which I would highly recommend reading the above article. I respect your belief about the leash, but by saying you only have two choices was a bit harsh, don’t you think? I would simple suggest keeping the cat indoors, with a liter box in the garage. You could ever put in a doggy door. To save your pet’s life, the cost, labor and difficulty of installing this door is irrelevant. If this isn’t an option then you could simple put them on a leash, taking him/her for their daily exercise and to relieve him/herself. I wouldn’t think this would be too much of an inconvenience, to you as “cat lover”. If you care about this cat, I would think you would use “putting the cat down”, or “too sleep” as a very last resort! I’m sorry you feel the “advice” you were given was in your words. “Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice”. I don’t feel these suggestions were given to you as advice they were presented to you as opinions. Never an option I would never consider what I just read to mean to “kill” or to have to move. I feel as a homeowner having any sort of pet, would do all they could before ever even considering, death or relocating. Save yourself a lot of heart ache and train your cat to do one of two things. 1.) Train it to walk on a leash 2.) Teach it to use a kitty litter box. I hope you can use these options, appose to death or moving. Best of luck Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/04/2006 6:07 AM
From the City of North Charleston (where our development is located) Ordinances: "Sec. 4-1. Running at large prohibited as nuisance. It shall be unlawful and shall constitute a nuisance for bulls, cows, calves or any kind of cattle, horses and mules, sheep, goats, dogs, geese, chickens, turkeys, ducks, guinea fowl or any other animal or fowl to run at large at any time within the city." Oddly, while "mules" and "sheep" as specifically mentiond, "cats" are not, but they fall under the words "any other animal". HOA rules, CCRs, etc. may be more restrictive than local laws but not less restrictive. Also: "Sec. 4-5. Sanitation. (a) No owner or custodian of any animal shall cause or allow such animal to soil defile or defecate on any public property or upon any street, public way, play area or common ground owned jointly by the members of a homeowners or condominium association, or upon private property other than that of the owner, unless such owner or custodian immediately removes and disposes of all feces deposited by such animals by the following methods: (1) Collection of the feces by appropriate implement and placement in a paper bag or plastic bag or other container; and (2) Removal of such bag or container to the property of the animal owner or custodian and disposition thereafter in a manner as otherwise may be permitted by law." Many counties, cities, towns, etc. have simmilar ordinances.

Ron SC

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/04/2006 6:09 AM
And from our CC&Rs: "SECTION 11 - Livestock. No animals, livestock or poultry shall be raised, bred or kept on any lot. Dogs, cats, and other household pets may be kept provided they are not bred or maintained for commercial purposes. Pets must not constitute a nuisance or cause unsanitary conditions. Pets must be kept on owner’s lots and will be considered a nuisance if allowed to roam on other lots or streets unless leashed."

Ron SC

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

11/04/2006 8:10 AM
i always find it funny that statements like "no animals, livestock or poultry"... doesn't the "no animals" pretty much cover it? Are there some kind of livestock or poultry that isn't an animal? did i miss that section of my general biology lessons? I also love the "no animal allowed to run free or create a nuisance". I always wanted to try that on the neighbor's whose kids were causing problems... after all, humans are animals too.

BethS1

Posts:0

11/04/2006 4:53 PM
I think it is great that someone mentioned a welcoming committee and going over the rules & regulations/bylaws. When I moved in I was stared at, monitored and the minute I did something they "thought" was wrong, they came flying over with all their books and squaking. (I had brought in wood, (baseboards) and they thought I was building something outside). No Hi, no welcome, just rude condo commando's. It's wise to know the bylaws, know your city ordinances and then adjust to them or point it out to the accusers if they in error. We had a board dog hater at my place and she threatened many of us with fake ordinances etc... Until I copied the ordinances that she quoted. Being a cat owner for 20+ years, they may be doing you a favor by asking for a leash rather than your cat being hurt by a car or some cat hater. There are too many mean people out there and it isn't worth the risk.

ClaudeV
(Florida)

Posts:84

11/04/2006 6:39 PM
Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 5:49 PM I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement. I have seen cats on a leash before. 2 in my lifetime. Bottomline: Our county ordinance requires cats to be leashed as well as our HOA CC&R's. Do we have cats roaming the neighborhood? Yes we do. Have they been reported to animal control? Many have been and rightfully so. For instance: The neighborhood cats use our flower beds for a litter box. My wife is HIGHLY ALLERGIC TO CATS, and coming in contact with their feces or spray from tom cats while she is enjoying gardening in her flower beds could cause her to make an EMERGENCY ROOM VISIT! We have neighbors that have a cat that they purchased a carrier that looks simular to a baby stroller. They walk their cat regularly around the neighborhood in this carrier so it can get fresh air and smell the outdoors. They do NOT allow their cat to roam. They are GOOD, RESPONSIBLE CAT OWNERS! I love cats. I had one when the wife & I met. I had to find it a nice home. Try to remember Virginia, that not everyone loves cats and when the rules say no roaming cats: THAT'S what it means! There isn't a court in the world that would support a defense of letting a cat run free where the law and/or HOA Rules say that they cannot. You should have thought about that before you bought into an HOA or gotten the rules clarified before hand.

JanM
(Texas)

Posts:142

11/05/2006 9:02 AM
I can't believe this cat topic went 2 pages!!!

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3702

11/05/2006 9:11 AM
Me either Jan. Just illustrates how important other animals are to us human animals I believe the thread on dogs is even longer!

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

11/05/2006 9:37 AM
Of course the thread on dogs is longer. dogs are better than cats. Ducks quickly, to avoid the flames and dirty looks I will be leaving now... (in case anyone can't tell, it's a joke... I love dogs and cats equally, and in my house currently are two dogs (former fosters), and six cats (three former fosters, three current fosters).

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22

12/05/2006 7:00 AM
Virginia: My HOA says the same. But the town and city have overriding rules: check with Animal Control in your town. Mine says that only dogs are required to be on a leash. However, whoever complained about your cat can have it trapped if it goes on their property, as my neighbor did to my 15 year old cat.

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22

12/05/2006 7:03 AM
Oh yeah, even though my cat was trapped by my neighbor, it's OK for all the dogs in the neighborhood to pee and poop on my yard. (And I'm allergic to dogs...)

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

12/05/2006 7:19 AM
Posted By JanM on 11/05/2006 9:02 AM I can't believe this cat topic went 2 pages!!! Well, it quickly went from a "cat" topic to a "why do I have to follow the rules" topic.

Ron SC

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

12/05/2006 7:23 AM
Posted By KittyC on 12/05/2006 7:03 AM Oh yeah, even though my cat was trapped by my neighbor, it's OK for all the dogs in the neighborhood to pee and poop on my yard. (And I'm allergic to dogs...) You have two options here: Bring it to the attention of the HOA (provide date/time stamped photos if you can) or bring it to the attention of your county/city/town animal control department. Keep your cat inside.

Ron SC

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

12/05/2006 7:36 AM
Posted By KittyC on 12/05/2006 7:00 AM Virginia: My HOA says the same. But the town and city have overriding rules: check with Animal Control in your town. Mine says that only dogs are required to be on a leash. The town and city rules do not overide the HOA "rules" unless they are specifically written to do so. The HOA rules may be more restrictive than local law, but not less restrictive. Specifically, if the HOA says cats may not be outside unless on a leash, then you must follow that rule when within the jurisdiction of the HOA even though the county does not require cats to be on a leash.

Ron SC

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

12/05/2006 4:49 PM
Ron's right... In general, the most restrictive rule has precedent (there are exceptions to this, but they are rarer). If a town rule says every car can honk it's horn, but the HOA says only red ones can, then in the HOA area, only red cars can honk...

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22

12/08/2006 6:35 AM
Posted By RickR1 on 10/31/2006 12:38 PM Point Blank. If the CCR's say the cat has to be on a leash, then so it be. Same old song. Everyone has signed on and read the rules before they bought so....? I think you want an audience to agree but there isn't going to be one. Sorry to be harsh but that it. Topic of cats: I love cats. Love them to death. Have two right now and I take them with me to my condo, camping and more. Very wrong for you to not take responsibility for your cats. When animals become domesticated, we take on the burden, if you call it that, of them. Feeding, care, etc. Notice the care in there. Cats on the side of the road, taken away by coyotes/hawks and lost forever have to be the worst things someone can witness. We prevent this by keeping them on leashes outside and/or keeping them primarily indoors. Same for bunnies, dogs, ferrets.(we have these and more in our HOA condos) What an idiot! My cats have been allowed outside during the day for 15 years. By allowing them to learn their environment they can better learn to adapt. Would you keep your kids on a leash or in the house? The reason dogs are on leashes and not cats is that dogs can ATTACK people. Do cats run up to people and bite them? Have you heard in the news of small kids being mauled to death by a loose cat? Come on! The last time I put my cat on a leash, I wound up standing under a tree with the cat above me. And don't give that excuse that cats kill songbirds when they are outside and therefore are a menace to wildlife. The building of your house destroyed the lives of many more animals that a cat ever could...

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22

12/08/2006 6:50 AM
"Now she comes in and out during the day as she pleases" If my cat went into my neighbor's yard as she pleased, she would have her picture recorded on a DVD as evidence that she was destroying my neighbor's mulch. (He has about 10 DVDs of this.)

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

12/08/2006 7:00 AM
Posted By KittyC on 12/08/2006 6:35 AM What an idiot! My cats have been allowed outside during the day for 15 years. By allowing them to learn their environment they can better learn to adapt. Would you keep your kids on a leash or in the house? The reason dogs are on leashes and not cats is that dogs can ATTACK people. Do cats run up to people and bite them? Have you heard in the news of small kids being mauled to death by a loose cat? Come on! The last time I put my cat on a leash, I wound up standing under a tree with the cat above me. And don't give that excuse that cats kill songbirds when they are outside and therefore are a menace to wildlife. The building of your house destroyed the lives of many more animals that a cat ever could... First of all, let's try to be civil here. Calling someone an idiot is not enhancing the discussion. First and foremost, if the CC&Rs state that cats (or all animals or pets) must be on a leash when outside, that's it. It doesn't matter how you feel about it personally or how many years your cats have lived outside. End of discussion. Second, although cats don't usually attack people and you don't care that they may attack songbirds and wildlife, when we live in close proximity to others, we must compromise in order to live in harmony. Many people do object to cats harming songbirds and wildlife, others object to them leaving muddy footprints on their vehicles. Cats dig in flower beds and defecate on other people's property. I have a cat. I love my cat. To show him that I love him, I keep him indoors except for trips to the vet. He is perfectly happy living indoors, he sits in the windowsill or in the sunroom and watches the sights when he feels like it, he plays with cat toys, and he naps when and where he wants, all without the danger of being hit by a car, attacked by a dog or wild animal, and safe from rabies and other "outdoor cat" diseases. Many counties, towns, and cities are now passing "cat leash" laws. The purpose is not to require that cats be on leashes (as you know, it's pretty impractical), but to keep them from running loose. Keeping ths cat indoors accomplishes the same purpose.

Ron SC

hoatalk

Posts:487

12/08/2006 7:13 AM
Posted By KittyC on 12/08/2006 6:35 AM What an idiot! KittyC Please click the Posting Rules link at the top of the forum. Among other things, they say "Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, helpful, positive and friendly." Obviously, Calling someone an idiot is breaking our rules. If you want to participate here and ask our member's advice, we ask that you follow the rules and help keep HOATalk a positive place for people to share and learn. Thank You for your support, HOATalk

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JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412

12/08/2006 8:24 AM
Let's see if this post will go to three pages! I am a cat lover...I have four cats (all rescued) that are strictly indoor cats. I have spent lots of money spaying/neutering, testing, vaccinating and finding homes for cats that cross my way. Have one now that needs a home as it came upon my door step and feeling badly, I fed it! On the other hand, I feed the birds. I spend about $100 every 6-8 weeks on various types of bird food. I have 7 nesting boxes, six feeders, five bird baths and three humming bird feeders. Nothing is more disheartening to go out in my yard and find a pile of bird feathers because someone wasn't responsible enough to keep their cat indoors or on a lead/leash. I also garden....nothing worse than the smell of cat urine or feces when you are working in the garden...especially on a 90 degree day and the humidity to go along with it. I don't like finding my plants dug up and mulch in a pile either. Right now, I have a stray tom cat that likes to spray on my house....that is real enjoyable. I also do not enjoy being woken up in the middle of the night by cats fighting or cats in heat. Since the first posting of this thread, I have noticed 4-5 dead cats along the road on my route to work, a few deer, raccoons, opposum, rabbits, squirrels...and only one dog. The point being that most people are responsible enough to keep dogs contained but for some reason, humans seem to think it is o.k. to let cats roam as they please. The point is to be a responsible pet owner, whether you have a cat or dog. Being responsible is the ability to protect your cat/pet and to respect others. By allowing your pet to roam, you are being irresponsible. In my opinion, cat owners who allow their cats to be outside and roam freely need to be educated and their thought process re-trained on the issue. Living in a community involves respect for others...if only we all followed this thought, everyone would be much more happier.

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22

12/11/2006 8:02 AM
Posted by RonW: "Harold, that is a stupid comment and it doesn't add anything usefull to the discussion. " RonW: Practice what you preach.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1742

12/11/2006 8:22 AM
Technically Kitty, calling a comment stupid and a person stupid are two different, separate "crimes". For instance, if I wrote "I like clowns" in response to a thread on parking cars, it could be very valid to say "Brian, that was a stupid comment, and had nothing to do with that thread". However, to impugn that I myself am an idiot (a fact I do not deny) would be a different issue, and be much more of a personal attack "Brian, your comment proves you are an idiot". the comment about a comment is treading the line, and may be on the far side of it. a comment about a person's intelligence, mental status, heritage, etc. is across the line, according to HOA Talk rules of conduct.

PWells
(Washington)

Posts:30

12/11/2006 8:54 PM
I wish I had only cat problems. Try having owners that have been in the HOA for more then 5 years and mentioned they plan to get a dog to a board member. Which the board nicely reminded that owner that the HOA House Rules states no animal/domestic pet is to exceed 30 lbs. Then the owner proceed to purchase and bring home a dog the not only is large but exceeds that restriction by 4 times the limit. Is bad enough. Then when the board tries to enforce the rule the owner hunts down a board member and literally verbal assults that member infront of other owners and vendors.... makes ya wanna quit the board. So I can totally understand having problems with animal/pet regulations. Pam

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

12/12/2006 4:47 AM
Posted By PWells on 12/11/2006 8:54 PM ............ Then when the board tries to enforce the rule the owner hunts down a board member and literally verbal assults that member infront of other owners and vendors.... . At that point I would quit being a "nice guy" and have the board attorney write the member a firm letter quoting the CC&Rs and giving him a time limit to remove the animal. I would also document the incident including witness statements.

Ron SC

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