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VirginiaC
(Virginia)
Posts:6
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| 10/30/2006 12:34 PM |
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| My home owner's association is requiring that I have my indoor-outdoor cat on a leash when he is outside. I think this is rediculous and was wondering if anyone had any experience with similar requirements. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3702
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| 10/30/2006 1:27 PM |
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| Yes, my HOA requires all animals to be under control on a leash when not in the house or a fenced backyard. I think it is a reasonable rule. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150 
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 10/30/2006 1:28 PM |
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| No - but I know from experience that most cats do not take well to a leash. Does your documents specifally require cats be on a leash when outside, or is this just a "rule" the board came up with? Unless cats on a leash is already addressed in your CC&Rs, this is not a type of rule a board has authority to impose. They cannot, without members vote, impose "new" rules. Harold |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3702
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| 10/30/2006 1:46 PM |
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| Harold, I disagree with you. In Colorado the Board can create and enforce Rules and Regulations which include restrictions which amplify or clarify the Declaration. Requiring an animal to be on a leash under control of a handler is a reasonable rule. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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VirginiaC
(Virginia)
Posts:6
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| 10/30/2006 3:47 PM |
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The association rules state that all "pets" have to be on a leash. At the time we moved in, we logically assumed that meant dogs...cats by nature do not wear leashes...where is the logic in this? Honestly, has anyone actually EVER seen a cat on a leash? The animal has done no damage in the community, and they said the complaint was that he is a "menace to the dogs". Well, now I think I've heard it all...
I would like to know from anyone out there how to fight this...do I do a neighborhood petition perhaps? Thanks for any and all help. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1742
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| 10/30/2006 3:58 PM |
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Multi part answer:
1) if the association rule states "all pets", then yes, your cat must be on a leash when outside. them's the rules, you knew them when you bought. Unfortunate that you assumed one thing, the HOA assumed another, but that's the way it is.
2) Why should cats be on a leash outside? Cars (how horrible that someone hit your cat. It ruins everyone's life, especially the cat). Damage to other property (flowerbeds, paint jobs, peeing and spraying, digging, and feces). Upsets dogs or other cats, which could lead to problems (your cat outside my window makes my cat tear up draperies, or my dog to jump a fence). Unleashed cats are also more likely to roam, and get diseases like FIV, Leukemia, rabies, etc., which devastates your animal.
3) What you can do: Get elected to the board, and work to change the rule from within. Or, watch for other people to take their fish or birds or turtles or snakes to the vet, and then ask the board "Hey, Bob took his goldfish to the vet, and they weren't on a leash! Fine him too!". Force the board to apply the rule as written to everyone.
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 10/30/2006 4:08 PM |
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Roger wrote + "the Board can create and enforce Rules and Regulations which include restrictions which amplify or clarify the Declaration."
Roger - Did you read my post? I asked Virginia if that was in her declaration, and yes the board can add rules that clarify the declarations, but if the subject in not already in the declarations, they cannot "make" a new rule without members voting on it. I'm not sure they can "amplify" a declaration. Please give me an example of amplifying" Harold |
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JosephW
(Michigan)
Posts:764
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| 10/30/2006 5:21 PM |
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I would suspect that the local animal control ordinance also requires all pets to be leashed when outside. Animals not under your control can do any number of things to irritate your neighbors. One of the reasons they may have chosen to live there is to avoid those irritations and they have a right to expect their neighbors to keep their part of the bargain. All pets leashed doesn't leave any room to maneuver.
Joe |
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Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1742
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| 10/30/2006 5:41 PM |
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many cities are heading (or have gone) to the "all animal" leash law, requiring dogs, cats, ferrets, etc. to be leashed when in public.
Even more cutting edge are those that simply state that all animals in public must be under the physical control of their owner/handler... this allows people who carry those rats they claim are dogs in their handbags or backpacks, cats or ferrets in travel crates, etc.. leashes are physical control, "well trained" is not upheld by courts as physical control.
I for one have never understood why my dog had to be leashed, but my cat could wander all over the neighborhood and pee and poop everywhere. I think they should both be treated the same. |
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VirginiaC
(Virginia)
Posts:6
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| 10/30/2006 5:49 PM |
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| I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement. |
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JulieS
(Georgia)
Posts:412
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| 10/30/2006 5:54 PM |
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Most counties and cities have a leash law for both cats and dogs but for some reason, most people believe leash laws only pertain to dogs. Our biggest complaints to the HOA....barking dogs, dog owners not cleaning up after their dogs and cats using a neighbors flower bed as their litter box. We refer them to animal control as there is nothing in our documents on this to enforce.
As an owner of four cats, I can never understand why someone thinks it is o.k. for cats to run around loose outside, or why they think cats need to be outside at all. I would be devastated to find my cat dead in the road because it was hit by a car, I don't want to deal with fleas or the expense of medications, I do not want my cat getting into cat fights that require medical attention, picked up by a hawk or coyote, nor do I want them contacting feline HIV & Leukemia and everything else that is out there. Additionally, I do not want my cats killing birds and other wildlife, using the neighbors flower bed as a litter box and I especially do not want to risk the danger of my cat being hurt by humans who find it entertaining to injure an animal. I once had a cat who liked to be outside and I would keep him on a harness collar and lead in the yard. Additionally, cats can be trained to walk on a leash like a dog, just for some reason, humans refuse to believe this is possible.
Out of respect for ones neighbors and your pet, all pets when outside, should be on a leash or under the owners control and not left to roam. To do so, in my opinion, is being irresponsible.
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JosephW
(Michigan)
Posts:764
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| 10/30/2006 6:01 PM |
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Virginia, to answer your question. I've seen cats on leashes in condos and HOA's, more often in urban settings than suburban or rural, and not frequently, as most owners in associations keep their cats inside. And I have to disagree with your assessment of the board's judgment - In 30+ years working with associations, I've yet to work with one that allows any animals to roam freely. Pets on leashes, is the norm, not the exception.
Joe |
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Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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JulieS
(Georgia)
Posts:412
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| 10/30/2006 6:01 PM |
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| Have I ever seen a cat on a leash? Yes....I lived in an apartment complex and every night, a guy would be walking his cat and it was on a leash. |
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VirginiaC
(Virginia)
Posts:6
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| 10/30/2006 6:33 PM |
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| I am not believing what I am reading...what a bizzaro world it is now. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3702
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| 10/30/2006 7:34 PM |
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Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 6:33 PM
I am not believing what I am reading...what a bizzaro world it is now.
When we had cats they were always on a leash when outside. We believe to not do so is irresponsible and you believe it is bizzare to do so. This illustrates the problem with restrictions - which ones are not reasonable? Each of us has different values based on our life experiences.
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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PatrickS
(Washington)
Posts:34
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| 10/30/2006 8:14 PM |
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I know that this thread has been worn to death, but I will tell you what our CC&R's state:
Limit of two pets and must be of the "inside type". This includes cats. We do have a leash rule, but it does not differ with cats or dogs it just says pets.
I have to agree that this is a reasonable rule. Several of the homeowners here have had it up to here after gardening in their flower beds and finding it to be a litter box. I don't know about you, but I really hate to handle kitty poo without a litter scoop.
This is why we live in an HOA community. If you don't like the rule, there are ways to change it or just simply move. In my experience, most like the rules until they find that a rule is one they don't agree with. Then the gloves are off.
I don't take my cat on walks, but that is not what cats do. She would rather lay on my bed or be harassing my dog (who is also inside). I have to set the example as well.
Better rules make better neighbors.
Patrick
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JamesC
(Maryland)
Posts:128
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| 10/30/2006 8:26 PM |
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Virginia:
You have a right to have a cat, dog or any animal you want. But, along with choosing to have an animal comes the responsibilities that goes along with having the pet.
Suppose your next door neighbor chooses not to have a pet. Suppose they hate pets, do they then, have to put up with your pet being in their yard or where ever your cat or dog chooses to roam?
You said you read the documents about leashing pets, yet you decided to move into the area.
You can't move in with the understanding of the rules of the community then feel other homeowners should over look your breaking the rules.
Not meant to be critical but, you have to understand owners who do not have their own pets maybe just don't
want to share yours.
Jim:
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1742
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| 10/30/2006 9:06 PM |
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Just to add my two cents:
I had cats who would walk on a leash, and did that every time we took them out front. Put me in the corner of "seen cats on a leash".
I also am firmly with Julie on the idea of not letting a cat roam free. FIV, Rabies, fleas, cat fights with other cats, infections, poisons, dogs/coyotes, leukemia, loss... ample reasons a cat should NEVER be allowed to roam free outside. Add to it Julie's additional thoughts about killing songbirds, defecating in other yards, spreading disease, damaging property... plenty of reasons you should keep your cats in your control, and not expect other people to live with them.
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JulieS
(Georgia)
Posts:412
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| 10/31/2006 6:45 AM |
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Virginia, I recommend that you seek the advice of your veterinarian. I am 99% sure that they will recommend keeping your cat totally indoors, or if allowed outdoors, then on a leash or lead.
You have the right to own a pet but you are also required to be a responsible pet owner in respecting your neighbors and also protecting your cat. It is obvious that your cat is behaving in a manor that has created a problem or you would not have received a letter from the association.
On another note, can someone please tell me why it is necessary for a cat to be allowed to roam outside? We don't expect this of dogs and children. |
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RickR1
(California)
Posts:37
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| 10/31/2006 12:38 PM |
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Point Blank. If the CCR's say the cat has to be on a leash, then so it be. Same old song. Everyone has signed on and read the rules before they bought so....?
I think you want an audience to agree but there isn't going to be one. Sorry to be harsh but that it.
Topic of cats:
I love cats. Love them to death. Have two right now and I take them with me to my condo, camping and more. Very wrong for you to not take responsibility for your cats. When animals become domesticated, we take on the burden, if you call it that, of them. Feeding, care, etc. Notice the care in there. Cats on the side of the road, taken away by coyotes/hawks and lost forever have to be the worst things someone can witness. We prevent this by keeping them on leashes outside and/or keeping them primarily indoors. Same for bunnies, dogs, ferrets.(we have these and more in our HOA condos) |
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VirginiaC
(Virginia)
Posts:6
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| 11/01/2006 4:46 PM |
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| I appreciate all the feeback from the HOA "experts"...my choice seems to be move, or have my cat, who has enjoyed four years in my neighborhood without any trouble, put to sleep. Two "great" options. Thanks but no thanks. Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1742
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| 11/01/2006 4:54 PM |
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there are other options.
put her on a leash.
keep her inside.
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hoatalk
Posts:487
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| 11/01/2006 5:47 PM |
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VirginiaC: Your last post where you resorted to name calling and posted your phone number has been removed. Please don't do either on this forum.
Our posting rules (see link at top of the forum) state: "(1) Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, positive and friendly."
After re-reading every post on this thread, it's clear that no one was rude to you and people were simply politely posting opinions on your situation and trying to help. There are many helpful people here and yes many "Experts". You would be well served to review their advice because they are correct.
In a 30 second search on Google I found many articles that back up the opinions here. For example, this one by 2 veterinarians:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=1&acatid=214&aid=105
Here's some quotes from the article:
"And, frankly, the outdoors has many potentially dangerous situations. In fact, the average life expectancy for an outdoor cat is about 3 years, compared to twelve for an inside cat."
"Don't let cats out without a leash ... Consider teaching your cat to walk on a leash. Many cats can satisfy their desire to be outside with a daily walk."
Best Regards,
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/02/2006 7:23 AM |
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Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 5:49 PM
I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement.
My cats have always been "indoor cats" but I had one who would allow me to put him on a leash and take him outdoors for a walk. Of course with a cat, you walk where he wants to go, not the other way around.
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Ron
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/02/2006 7:58 AM |
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Posted By VirginiaC on 11/01/2006 4:46 PM
I appreciate all the feeback from the HOA "experts"...my choice seems to be move, or have my cat, who has enjoyed four years in my neighborhood without any trouble, put to sleep. Two "great" options. Thanks but no thanks. Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice.
You do not have to have your cat "put to sleep" (kill it). Keep it indoors, it will adjust just fine.
You asked the "experts" for advice and you got it. Apperently you did not get the advice you wanted to hear. Don't be angry with the responses, you asked for them. If you want better advice, see a lawyer.
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Ron
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WilliamT
(Arizona)
Posts:489
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| 11/02/2006 8:24 AM |
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In my community, cats are not an issue. We have a leash law for dogs, not "pets". There are a few that roam around, including mine, and no one complains.
As to how cats can adjust, here is the history on my 14 year old cat. In California we lived on one acre and all the neighboring lots were one acre. Our cat was an outdoor cat. It stayed outdoors most of the time. We would call her at night and sometimes she would come in and sleep in the garage. She never wanted to be in the house.
We moved to Arizona into a community that has very small lots so her life style had to change. Because cats tend to try and return to their former residence, we kept her in the house for one month to get her to learn that this was her new home. We would take her outside and stay with her to do her duty, then bring her back inside.
After one month we would take her outside for extended periods of time and stay close to her. Finally she became comfortable with her new home, and also comfortable being in the house. Now she comes in and out during the day as she pleases, and does not stray far when she goes outside. Age probably plays a factor there.
In the hot months she'll stay inside from about 11Am to 5PM, then go outside until about 9PM.
She still likes to sleep in the garage at night, probably because of the privacy and hiding places, and the fact that she can roam around there all night if she chooses. She is ready to come in from outside and call it a night at about 9:30 PM.
We have never had the need to put a leash on her. Judging by the way she adjusted to her new life style here, and because it took some time to adjust, I would guess that with a few minutes of very patient practice every day, that she could adjust to a leash in a couple of months.
When we drove to Arizona during our move, we tried to use a leash at the rest stops. She was not accustomed to that, and refused to walk. Fortunately we had a litter box in the back of the car for her to use.
One cannot expect a cat to adjust to a leash within a few minutes, but I believe with patience and understanding during a couple of months training, all cats can adjust. |
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/02/2006 12:51 PM |
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| I just can't understand why anyone would make the biggest purchase of their lifetime (a house) and not read and understand any restrictions beforehand. And then complain about enforcement afterwards. And then threaten to kill the cat. I have no sympathy. |
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Ron
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WilliamT
(Arizona)
Posts:489
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| 11/02/2006 1:45 PM |
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Ronald,
If someone hasn't lived in a planned community before they really don't know what to expect. At closing the title company sends them a pile of papers which include the CC&R's, etc., and they haven't the foggiest idea what it's all about.
That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of.
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/02/2006 2:32 PM |
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Posted By WilliamT on 11/02/2006 1:45 PM
Ronald,
If someone hasn't lived in a planned community before they really don't know what to expect. At closing the title company sends them a pile of papers which include the CC&R's, etc., and they haven't the foggiest idea what it's all about.
That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of.
Let me tell you what I did.
At age 60+, I had never lived in a community with any CC&Rs, HOA, or regulations except for local laws. I didn't know what a CC&R was. I had heard horror stories about them, though. I have a 24' trailer boat that I wanted to keep on my property. When looking for a new home (I retired and relocated 500+ miles away), I made sure the real estate agent knew about the boat. I looked at a few properties without CC&Rs where I could do anything I pleased with the property. The neighbors already had done this; junked cars, piles of rubbish, "lawns" that hadn't been mowed for weeks, etc. I also looked at communities with CC&Rs and HOAs. Some didn't allow boats at all, some had dedicated boat and RV storage areas. When I found a house I liked, one with an obvious place to store a boat, and in a neighborhood with a few boats and RVs parked behind fences or "screening", I asked my real estate agent to get me a copy of the CC&Rs. I studied these documents very carefully over a period of several days. I decided I could live with restrictions on when the trash could be put out, what type and color of mailbox I could have, etc. Based on the other boats and RVs in the development, I felt reasonably certain that an application to move a gate and store the boat would be accepted.
Only after this study, did I make an offer on the house.
I bought the house, the application for boat storage was approved (I stored it off site until it was) and about a year and one half later I was nominated and elected to the BOD.
A person who would spend several hundred thousand dollars on something without researching it is a ............
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Ron
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/02/2006 2:33 PM |
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| I forgot to mention that there's a sign at the entrance stating that the community is governed by covenants and restrictions. |
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Ron
SC |
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| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
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