JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/02/2009 4:20 PM |
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| Who can a homeowner go to, other than an attorney, for help when the board of directors makes a decision which violates state law. In this case the board is spending money to maintain street signs which are the responsibility of the state and county. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3622
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| 09/02/2009 4:25 PM |
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| Jack I'm not sure that they're violating a law by maintaining them, perhaps a Covenant. The first thing I would do is write a polite letter to the BOD asking why the HOA is paying for something that they shouldn't. It could be your streets are not maintained by the state/county but owned by the HOA in which case the signs are probably the HOA's responsibility. |
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Your board meeting is not held in the Situation Room of the White House. It's not life or death. Let people in, keep it positive, then go home and get a good night's sleep. If you hold off drinking until after the meeting, instead of before or during, you're probably doing OK. JosephW |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 09/02/2009 5:26 PM |
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Are your streets private? Ours are and we have to purchase all our own signs, i.e. no Parking on Street, Speed Limit, Caution Children Playing, and Load Limit signs.
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:4491
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| 09/02/2009 5:59 PM |
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Our HOA maintains our street signs and the roads are county owned.
Why do we do that? Because we have to since are signs are not the standard ones, but rather "designer" signs.
But it couldn't cost a whole heck of a lot. Ours cost $150 each. We replace maybe one or two a year (and usually because someone steals them). |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1665
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| 09/02/2009 7:22 PM |
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I doubt there is any law against the HOA paying for the signs. Further, I doubt that you could build a solid case that it violates any of the HOA rules either. The HOA exists to improve the neighborhood and taking care of signs improves the neighborhood.
Perhaps it is the city's responsibility. But for a few bucks more you get to keep the signs in better shape.
You have every right to disagree with this sentiment of course. But your best recourse is the elections. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 09/02/2009 9:12 PM |
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BB,
Your post is clear that the Board has taken action and is expending these funds.
Ok, get the announced authority they are using to spend the money and get copies of receipts showing the expenditures.
Next get the state law that provides for the state to maintain the signs.
Go to a Board meeting, present your evidence and ask the Board for an explanation. If these signs were always maintained by the state and you can prove this, question their authority to change.
You have to go to the Board. Why would you want to go somewhere else?
Is that the real question here? You can not find out from the board.
On the other hand you have stated the Board and made a decision and taken an action, so maybe you need to take a group to the meetings and question the Board. Any other problems bothering you? |
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JeanneK3
(Maryland)
Posts:362
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| 09/03/2009 6:29 AM |
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Virginia now has an Ombudsman for common ownership communities. If the board cannot satisfy your concerns, contact the Ombudsman.
Jeanne |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 6:48 AM |
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Jack,
Your complaint is that the Board is spending association funds on street signs, making a decision to do so which violates State law. Boards are responsible for maintaining and replacing certain items within the developement which should be spelled out in your governing documents. Normally (I stress the word normally) the members do not have involvement in these decisions once the budget has been aproved. So if the Board is following your documents on how they spend your money, there should be no issue with them.
So why are you saying that they are going against State law? Either the County, OR the State, OR the association has to care for the signs. You need to find out for sure who that is before you file a complaint with anyone. |
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TracieS
(Colorado)
Posts:460
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| 09/03/2009 6:50 AM |
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You know, sometimes the association spends funds on things that are muni/county/state responsibilities (even public roads, etc).
Riddle me this... You're walking around your association. You notice that city-maintained sidewalks are cracking, and elevated more than 2" (slip/fall hazard). What do you do? You call the city...it's their responsibility, right? So, you call your roads department, and they tell you that they'll "add you to the list", and that it could be months until they get that repair made. Well, your insurance company sent someone out, and they want that fixed because it's a serious insurance hazard... What to do...what to do... A slab of sidewalk will cost ABOUT $500 (mudjacking, less than that)...so, the association shells out that money. (I'm DELIBERATELY NOT discussing the subsequent lawsuit where blame/fault would be assigned if someone slipped and sued the association and the city.)
Not the exact same as your situation, but it's just like life...you do what you need to do to maintain the asset.
Is your Board shirking their responsibilities? Is your board WASTING HOA funds? Then you have a problem. To me, it sounds like they're trying to maintain the community. You say tomato, I say tomahto... Is it strictly a black/white issue...no, as in so many HOAs, there are multiple shades of gray. |
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DavidW5
(Virginia)
Posts:334
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| 09/03/2009 7:00 AM |
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Posted By JeanneK3 on 09/03/2009 6:29 AM
Virginia now has an Ombudsman for common ownership communities. If the board cannot satisfy your concerns, contact the Ombudsman.
Jeanne
JeanneK3 is right about Virginia's recent law change which created an Ombudsman under a Common Interest Community Board (CICB). Unfortunately they are not in a position to do anything to help you. I recently attended a panel discussion of the CICB which included the Ombudsman. She explained that the implementing procedures for her office are just now being drafted (the law was passed in July of '08) and it will be a year to 18 months until they are reviewed and approved. She stated, in response to a question from the audience: "Its not that we don't want to help you, its that we can't help you". Even when the procedures are in place the law gives the Ombudsman no enforcement authority or powers.
The panel (and the CICB) is made up overwhelmingly of industry insiders (HOA Management company reps, HOA attorneys, developers reps) and a lone HOA resident. My impression is that the whole deal is just political cover for the industry so they can say "see, we are being regulated by the state and your interests (as HOA owners) are being protected."
I wouldn't count on any real assistance from this source.
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/03/2009 8:11 AM |
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David,
Why not give the new board a chance b/4 stating they cannot be counted ". . .on any real assistance". The Ombudsman may have said "we can't help you" meaning "right now", in other words not until their operating procedures are emplemented. Change doesn't always come immediately especially when that change is coming from a gov't entity.
Montgomery Co has had a program in effect for a number of years that has been very effective. Their board is made up of individuals from all the stakeholder assn's, including several h/o's. It sounds like the state board may be modeled after the Montgomery Co. board. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 09/03/2009 8:45 AM |
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David,
Good post.
I have been accused of only agreeing with the things that I agree with and so your post reflects my impression of how these laws, etc are instituted. I also wish the panels, all fo them concerned with HOA issues would contain more Homeowner input. I also wish it would include more reps from the professional managers groups. And IF these laws they are passing are to be effective these agency must be able to handle the volume, and I doubt they can. Florida couldn't/can't.
I don't know the answer but experience prods at me and is suggesting this is likely all another: The Fox is making the plans to guard the Chicken House. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3622
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| 09/03/2009 8:59 AM |
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Why is the first option for everyone to go nuclear? While there are the exceptions we all see on the news, I have to think that most HOA BOD's are not despots out to rule the world or their little section of it. A simple polite inquiry at a Board meeting or a polite letter will generally get the information a person requires. I emphasize the word polite because people being human usually respond in the manor to which they are addressed and become defensive when attacked especially when they don't understand why they are being attacked. Which of the following do you think would get the best response?
Dear Sirs,
It has come to my attention that the HOA is paying to replace street signs in our community. I think that this is something that should be done by the state or county government using tax dollars. Could you please explain why HOA funds were used for this?
Thank you,
HOA Member
You Bas***ds,
How dare you waste my assessment money to replace the street signs instead of letting the state or county do it? All you guys do is waste our money. Explain yourselves immediately or I'll report you to the government and see to it that you are all voted off the BOD.
Sincerely,
Your Worst Nightmare
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Your board meeting is not held in the Situation Room of the White House. It's not life or death. Let people in, keep it positive, then go home and get a good night's sleep. If you hold off drinking until after the meeting, instead of before or during, you're probably doing OK. JosephW |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 9:19 AM |
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Glen
Option #1 And as I stated, considering all factions in this case, the Board still has the responsibility to maintain and replace items that it deems nescessary. We still need answers from the O.P on who owns the signs and why he feels that the Board violated State laws |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/03/2009 9:41 AM |
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| I seriously doubt there is any violation of state law. But just like so many people like to say "it's a violation of my constitutional rights", many others like to say "it's a violation of state law." We even had an AZ State Rep say that HOA's restricting parking on the streets is a violation of state law. It isn't but she repeated that to all the legislators until one asked her to quote the specific law. I guess it's just human nature and it sounds good when you're trying to justify your position. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 9:50 AM |
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Yup Mary,
That is the mentality of so many. Pass the buck, hide behind some made up laws or case decisions. Bottom line is, find out before you accuse someone. Being a board member is tough enough without someone riding shotgun on all decisions. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 09/03/2009 10:30 AM |
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Mary and Donna,
I can't say I disgree with your agreements concerning disgruntled homeowners taking it out on Board. Certainly agree criticism should be constructive, don't you.
Speculate why we have good boards and boards that don't operate well.
Would you both weigh heavily the fact that two many people are unfair in their treatment of boards, therefore, that is a cause for the creation of bad boards or the lack of participation in the association?
Now you know I am asking a fair question. Just asking for your opinion.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 11:04 AM |
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Hi Mr. Robert,
You asked--
"Would you both weigh heavily the fact that two many people are unfair in their treatment of boards, therefore, that is a cause for the creation of bad boards or the lack of participation in the association?
No, I do not believe that is the reason for bad boards. People are people and if you get a few together who do not know what they are doing, are just basic negative in thought, sometimes mean spirited, think that they know more than others or know it alls, and are power mongers in their old age, then you have bad boards.
Yes, the membership can drive boards crazy and maybe to do react to do dumb things but bad boards are what they are made up of. Lack of member participation is always something to add to the "drives them crazy" list.
Education of the laws and documents solves many problems for Boards but there will always be those who interpret everything in a slanted way towards their way of thinking. It is a good thing that there are probably as many great Boards as nutso ones.
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SteveM9
(Massachusetts)
Posts:1529
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| 09/03/2009 11:58 AM |
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spending money to maintain street signs which are the responsibility of the state and county.
I would start by finding out if the street signs are owned by county or not. Look at your docs. Many HOA's own the street signs and need to maintain them.
If they are in fact city/county street signs they are proubably the expensive metal ones made to last forever. So your statement of them needing to be maintained leads me to believe they are cheap HOA signs that they are not responsible for. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 09/03/2009 12:31 PM |
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Great response Donna,
I think you show you haven't been overly influenced with what we see day to day on this site.
I sometimes worry that I can become jaundiced just by reading so many post here. Surely we are not a cross section of the big picture here. Not sure what kind of picture this site paints as a measure of the norm. I suspect we are not norm.
But you and Mary and some other have been around a long time and it good to see that reasoning with reason plays a strong part in your thought process. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 09/03/2009 2:44 PM |
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Robert,
I can only answer your question based upon what my feelings would be if I were a board member. If members were complaining about how the board operated I would try to understand the basis for their complaints and make improvements or let them know why their complaints are unfounded. I like to think complaining is NOT a cause for a BOD to become errant in their duties. I think being uneducated about HOAs and not understanding exactly what their responsibilities are is a major cause. On top of that there will always be a certain % of people who let the "power" of being a board member go to their head and affect their actions.
But, frankly, I think the majority of the HOA BODs do a very good job; it's only a minority that become errant and cause hardaches (and even hardships) for thier members. On top of that I think there are just as many members who can be labeled "bad members". These are people who complain about something about which they know nothing. They are convinced the board is mismanaging the funds, violating the gov docs and state laws and just making a mess of everything. Usually they have nothing to base their claims on, they "just know it's the truth!"
I agree education is a key ingredient to being a good board member. But, I also believe the members need to be educated too.
Some boards drive their members crazy and some members drive their boards crazy!!! If all those people would just go away, HOA Land would be a happy place to live.
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 09/03/2009 3:28 PM |
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Mary, Thanks for your reply. Like Donna, you seem to be able to step aside and make rational sense of the big picture.
I do appreciate both your replies.
I don't want to get this all confusing either and drag it out.
A specific question to you both might be helpful. I am not sure from posting on this site that I have a good accurate evaluation of what is the norm in effectiveness of these boards. I sort of would guess you are close to the real facts, but has anyone ever seen any real studies done on how effective this kind of control is. I would think to compare HOA's, on a whole, to small towns, on a whole, would not be an accurate comparison. Has anyone ever quantized the management of HOA's and condos? Certainly there is sufficient data if the right numbers could be pulled out of representative samples.
Would someone like CAI have this data? Any comments?"
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 4:53 PM |
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Susan
These street signs are maintained fully by the state and county using the state and county taxes we pay. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 4:55 PM |
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Glen
These street signs are maintained fully by the state and county using the state and county taxes we pay. The HOA has absolutely no responsibility for them. Thanks for your thoughts.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 4:57 PM |
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Jack,
What was the reason for them being replaced? Your version, is it the same as why the HOA replaced them. |
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 4:58 PM |
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| Jeanne.Thanks. You've given me another avenue if I cannot work this issue out with the board. |
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 5:00 PM |
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| Donna. Help me here . I don't understand your question. The signs were put up and are maintained by the county and state. They have never been replaced so I do not really understand your discussing their replacement. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 09/03/2009 5:01 PM |
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Sorry---new computer and it is hyper sensitive so it submitted before my fingers did.
Anyhow, who maintains these street signs. You say the State and County. Which one is it. State would not unless you are on a State Highway. County would not unless this is a county road. City possibly unless you are not in the city. Jack, which one fits here? |
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 5:04 PM |
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| Donna. In Virginia it is a violation of state law. The Virginia Property Owner's Association Act says the HOA cannot maintain the signs if they are maintained by a government agency. |
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JackB8
(Virginia)
Posts:105
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| 09/03/2009 5:07 PM |
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| Donna. The state maintains the directional signs (stop, yield, speed limit, so on). The county maintains the information signs (street names, etc) |
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