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RandyS (Colorado)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Good Day All,

I'm bringing this to light, as I feel it is something that the BOD's out there need to be concerned with, and this is one of those situations where a BOD and an HOA can show that, even though restrictions are inplace to ensure that propertty values don't go down, and so that things are consistant and junk don't pile up.

Anyway, I am referencing something that directly impacts EVERYONE OF US. I'm sure the events of 9-1-1 effected you in some way shape or form. I'm certain that there were feelings that you had never experienced that were felt for the first time.

Now add to this the fact, that if you had a loved one, or someone you knew that was living in or around these areas, and when the rest of the world heard of the news, immediately the first thing that was reached for was the telephone. Some were able to get through, via the conventional method of telephone service, until they became overloaded and could no longer handle the influx of continuous calls. Then, there were those that immediately began the process of attempting the same via their cell phones, only to be met with the same or getting the message of no service.

I truely hope that anyone reading this was not impacted peesonally by the events of 9-1-1.

Are any of you aware that when the towers fell, the antennas atop were used by cell phone companies and by the Authorties.
When this event took place, communication as we all know it STOPPED!

There was no one that was able to get through...Well, that's not true either...Let me explain;

Most, if not all of you reading this, have either heard of, know personally, or expressed interest in, or are in fact among the few.
What I am referencing is a HAM or offically known as an Amateur Radio Operator. These individuals were able to communicate, to get messages in and out of the areas effected, and back to those that were wanting to know. This also included the media. The local Authorities, without effective communications were unable to locate their people, and to relay the whereabouts of the locations that victims were sent to.

The HAM's in the area immediately reacted to this by sending people to the area to assist with getting communications flowing again. These individuals asked for nothing in return, but simply wanted to help their fellow man.

As you all know of the Hurricane's that have impacted us of late, well this too was another area where these individuals, at their own expense, risk, and of wanting to help were welcomed by the Authorities. HAM's were able to establish communications when no one else was able to do so.

Many are unaware that individuals like this even exist, reason for this, is because they don't ask for TV coverage or even wish to be in the spot-light...Not at all, you see they all MUST take a test, the contents of which are governed by the FCC, you know them, the one's that said you have to allow satellite dishes.

Well, without boring you all with an even longer book here. I would like for you all to think about something. I am one of those Amateur Radio Operators, I volunteer my time, not only to my HOA, but also to a group known as A.R.E.S. (Amateur Radio Emergency Service), these groups are located all over the country, and work closely with your local authorities to ensure that if communications should become interrupted through the efforts of terrorists or mother nature. That we all will get the assistance needed.

We are consistantly denied the ability to place an antenna on property that we have purchased, by HOA's. I've not heard of ANY HOA that has allowed one HAM to so much as plaace an antenna where it would be useful. Many say, wait, I've seen those unsightly big antennas when I drive to the grocery store, it has this tower that stands what must be 300' high! and I don't want this next door to me.

All I can say is this, STOP for a minute, we are not asking to put a tower in place, nor do we wish to effect property values negatively, as this would not only impact ourselves, but that of our neighbors. NO, we are not asking for this at all. We are asking to place an antenna so that operations of communications can take place.

There are antennas that don't look like that of those towers you feel are so unsightly. Remember, someone with one of those towers, if you got word of a loved one during any of these events that have taken place, chances are, it was because of one of those unsightly towers with the antenna on top.

What I'm asking for on behalf of other Amateur Radio Operators is actually simple... Allow for the antenna, it don't have to be unsightly, work with the operator you might find you could l earn something, afterall they are licensed by the Federal Government.

We enjoy communications with others, and perhaps many HOA's could learn a few things about communications. There are some other things that ALL of you should know about us HAM's.
Yes, we enjoy communications and we use radio's to do so, but we are also viewed as a valuable resource to your local law enforcement, and fire departments. In addition to this, keep in mind, that your local Emergency Prepardness Office, also has us train year round just incase of a servre winter storm, flood, tornado, hurricane, terrorist attack, wild fire, and even to help in Search & Rescue.

Oh, and did you know that this all cost you all NOTHING! not one of us gets paid to do anny of this, wee do it so we can help our communiities, but because of the lack of education on the subject the only thing that is seen is the antenna. Did you also know that you can send a message at NO COST via a HAM, it is through the National Traffic Network. We can not, as a condition of our license, be paid for the service we offer.

This is just a few things, that Amateur Radio Operators do, there are many many more, but you'll be reading forever. You all probably alse enjoying it when you use that cell phone, sure makes things else don't it... Well, you can Thank a HAM for this, the experimenting that a HAM does is what leads to many of today's conviences.

Remember, a HAM can, when no one else is able too. Many are also disabled, but they can still communicate via Amateur Radio...But you have to let them, maybe your son or daughter would enjoy it, perhaps even yourself?

You never too old to get your license, and the youngest I myself know of is around 7 years old!

At least think of allowing something to let them, and myself communicate and be of service to our communities.

That's all I wanted to say, thanks for reviewing, hopefully you will at least allow a 2 Meter antenna, no it's NOT CB Radio, please don't confuse the two. That's a whole other entity and topic.

Thanks,

Randy
ClaudeV (Florida)
Posts: 86
Posted:
Randy,
Just to add some support to your position along with another perspective.

When I was in the middle of the Indian Ocean in 1981 and desparately needed to speak to my wife back home in Virginia, I went to the "M.A.R.S." radio station aboard ship. I was able to speak to her through a radio/telephone "patch" with a radio operator in the states. It was a blessing and saved our marriage. (For then anyway!)
Today, cell phones replace much of that sort of thing, but like you said, cells won't work after some sort of disaster and the towers are down. There IS a "false sense of security" in our soceity about the availablility of cell phone usage. (The same holds true for boaters that think they don't need a VHS Marine radio since they have a cell phone. Theu couldn't be more wrong!)

Many people envision Ham Antennas as some huge monstrosity of an array that is usually indicative of some urban vigilante's "compound". As you have described, that doesn't have to be the case. I have seen the "monster" arrays and I've seen the 2 meter variety of antennas. I know what the "good" Vs the "Ugly" looks like.

Nothing you or I post may change any HOA CC&R's or people's concept of such antennas or Ham operators. All we can do is try to disspell the myths about such things and hope for the best. And no, I am NOT an operator. I just understand those that are.
Claude
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Randy, does a HAM antenna qualify under the the 1996 FCC Over-the-Air-Reception Device Rule (OTARD Rule)? There still seems to be confusion about how it affects homeowner associations. In short, the OTARD Rule prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of satellite dishes that are less than one meter in diameter, TV antennas of any size, wireless cable antennas and customer-end antennas that receive and transmit fixed wireless signals.

Check it out if you think it applies,
Roger
LuciusD
Posts: 139
Posted:
Although there has been considerable lobbying to try to bring amateur radio service antennas under the OTARD Rule. They were specifically excluded, the last time I checked. There are some very powerful lobbies that hate antennas of any sort.
Lou Day
RobertG (Arizona)
Posts: 505
Posted:
Two points.

1. I don't think (not a lawyer) the OTARD covers anything except specific satellite dishes. Not TV antennas or wireless cable antennas or anything else. I can easily be proven wrong.

2. No matter how good the argument is for or against a restriction such as HAM radio antennas, you have to remember that when you purchased your property, you agreed to the covenants and restrictions. You have several choices - lobby to get your HOA to change the rules, - don't put it up, - move. As harsh as it may sound, you had the choice to buy your property somewhere else and you choose to buy at your location.
JHolzman (Colorado)
Posts: 1
Posted:
You are wrong about the otard ruld covering dishes only the other receiving antennas are covered also.

here is a link to fcc http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html

RobertG (Arizona)
Posts: 505
Posted:
Your reference link is incorrect. It should be http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html.

Also, as it pertains to what I stated, I am very close -

"Antennas used for amateur (“Ham”) radio, CB radio, FM or AM radio service, satellite radio or used as part of a hub to relay signals among antennas are NOT covered by these rules."
SamuelB (North Carolina)
Posts: 83
Posted:
Posted By RobertG on 01/16/2006 7:39 AM

Your reference link is incorrect. It should be http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html.
....


Hummm, both links look the same to me (and go to the same place). Did HOATalk change one of them?

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de St-Exupéry
SamuelB (North Carolina)
Posts: 83
Posted:
BTW, I use the following reference.....

http://www.fcc.gov/telecom.html

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de St-Exupéry
JackJ (Florida)
Posts: 40
Posted:
Must these HAM antennas be attached directly to the sending/receiving unit or can they stand alone as cell phone towers do?
The reason I ask is, if they can stand alone, why can't one be placed in some unobstrusive location, even remote from your housing complex?
ClaudeV (Florida)
Posts: 86
Posted:
To alcon: Try this link. The story explains much and some insight to a probable "end" is evident.

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/local/ccr.html

Hope it sheds some light and offers some helpful info.
Claude
LuciusD
Posts: 139
Posted:
Claude,
The URL you provide leads to a very interesting and informative article. However, it needs to be noted, the aricle it leads to is MORE THAN 10 years old. I feel like it may not be the latest word on the subject. -- Lou
LuciusD
Posts: 139
Posted:
Claude,
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2001/12/28/3/
is somewhat more recent and it includes a link to the FCC denial of the ARRL request to pre-empt CCR's. Do you have anything more recent?
ClaudeV (Florida)
Posts: 86
Posted:
My apologies to all. I found that article but never thought to check the date. If I find anything more recent, I'll post it but I think the info so far from others just about covers the subject.
LuciusD
Posts: 139
Posted:
Claude, I thank you for citing the article. It has one of the best practical, no nonsense, explanations of CCR's and the common law meaning of "covenant" I've seen. I've copied it for my "reference library".
I think the keyword to search on is "OTARD" for antenna stuff. -- Lou
LuciusD
Posts: 139
Posted:
I found another address

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html#links
RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
i know this is an old thread, but what if the said licensed ham is disabled and housebound either because of a mental or physical disability. it can be argued with testimony from a licensed doctor that this is a tool to help with said disability in as such can be used to help the disabled stay in contact with a social base in an effort to ease the depression and isolation incurred from the disability.

can the homeowner/renter sue under the ADA and be granted the installation of antenna's for his/her federally licensed activities?

just an interesting observation i have been thinking of for a while now.


RobertC14

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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046
Posted:
Robert,

Anyone can bring legal action for any reason. The question is, would they win.

For what you are proposing, I think an argument can be made that Amateur Radio is not the only method of communication available for a disabled person to stay in contact with social base.

There are other forms of communication than just Amateur Radio (internet, telephones, cell phones, etc.).
There are other forms of social interaction than just Amateur Radio (civic groups, churches, community services, facebook, twitter, etc.)

Additionally, the FCC OTARD (over the air reception devices) regulations do not apply to HAM radio as they use antennas that transmit as well as receive.

I would also suspect that since the individual you are speaking of is a tenant vs. a member, there would be other complications as a Tenant doesn't have rights within an HOA. Only the landlord does. Therefore, the issue would be between the Tenant and the Landlord followed by an issue between the landlord/member and the Association.

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
i didn't say they would win or not just an interesting thought. i remember a lady in public housing who sued and i believe won under the ada the right to have a pony in public her hud apartment because it was an aide to her disability. she had a small hay stall in her apartment.

i was actually thinking of that situation when i had this thought.

this was many many years ago so i cant remember the details or even where it occurred.

RobertC14

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RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
one other sidebar that is kind of on this topic. i have seen in recent years HOA's using CC&R's to regulate RF emitting devices who's antenna's and transmitter unit reside inside the walls of a dwelling. multiple lawyers say i guess say this is legal, but has a regulation like that ever been tested and upheld in court? or is it something that just gets by because no one has yet to test the validity of such a regulation in a court of law.

this is another question i have been kicking around in my head and both i think are some very good questions.


RobertC14

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FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> i have seen in recent years HOA's using CC&R's to regulate RF emitting devices who's antenna's and transmitter unit reside inside the walls of a dwelling.

I have never heard of such a thing

and if it was attempted

keep in mind that RF-emitting devices include: wi-fi, wireless mice, cell phones, wireless phones, car keys, garage door openers....

RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
luckily only a small percentage of HOA's from what i hear employ these kinds of regulations but i have heard of such regulation and they have even been mentioned on here a few times by others as well in the ham community.

could be an urban legend. i have never actually seen a CC&R handbook myself with such regulations yet only have heard of such.

RobertC14

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WildT1 (Georgia)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Randy,

I was just in Punta Gorda Florida and the HOAs there have alot of the very tall HAM anntenas and I inquired about them..I was told the HOA and even the city was unable to stop the erection of these due to federal law. They could only limit the hieght and the ones i saw were quite high.

Chris
RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
iirc there are a couple of states which have their own state law that copies the federal law but adds the additon to applying to ccr's as well as municipalities but the federal law does not cover ccr's

RobertC14

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MikeS1
Posts: 521
Posted:
I'm curious as to what they look like as well as where and how to you mount them?
RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
they can range from what is depicted here...
http://wb0dgf.com/stealth.htm

to something like this...
http://www.smeter.net/w6obb/antenna-farm.php

RobertC14

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RobertC14 (Colorado)
Posts: 78
Posted:
ham antennas and ham stations can be nearly invisible and with satellite/cable , cellphone, now taking over homes advances in solid state radio technology and filtering, etc RF interference to neighbors is pretty much non existent.

i personally think it's time for HOA's to update their documents to allow for ham antenna's when gone through and approved by an ARC.

just my opinion.

hams are going to keep pressuring for legislation to extend prb-1 to HOA's/CCR's and eventually will get such legislation passed.

history has shown this to be true with other legislation.

it would be a good idea for HOA's to make accommodation. ham/cb radio does not automatically mean RF interference and huge towers sprouting antenna's these days. it can be very low profile. HOA's just have to be willing to accommodate and work with ham operators instead of just outright bans.

prohibition whether it be drugs, alcohol or antenna's has historically proven to be a losing battle.

time to just start to work with amateur operators before the feds/states give you no choice in the matter and you do wind up with 70ft towers sprouting up in a community.


RobertC14

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