"For Sale" signs

Our HOA Rules state in part..."An owner shall show no sign, advertisement..." However, when a resident decides to sell his/her house the realtor posts "For Sale" signs all over our development property. Do residents have the right to take them down?

PennyN1,

The realtor is an agent of the owner, and subject to the same rules the owner is. Since your rule says no for sale signs, then it applies to the realtor as well.

IMO, it is not wise to remove the sign yourself, rather call management. It's one thing to police the neighborhood, it's another to perform the physical action to right the wrong.

Many HOA's develop policies that permit for sale signs in certain locations, of a certain look, and on certain days. This way the integrity of the community is less compromised by the "mushrooming" of for sale signs, An understandable concern.

Best of success!!
GeraldT1
NNJ

Ed - You should check your TX statues regarding political signs. I'm sure your pols have passed laws protecting THEIR signs just as they have here in AZ..."It is a class II misdemeanor to knowingly remove, alter, deface, or cover a political sign 45 days prior to election or 7 days after..." Arizona has also specifically added legislation to permit political signs in HOAs notwithstanding the HOAs documents forbidding them. They do limit the size and number however.
As far as For Sale signs: How is a home supposed to be marketed if no signs are allowed? That includes open house signs as well. This has been discussed previously here. Harold

I think not allowing for sale signs is a mistake, how else are you going to market your home for sale? When I was looking we drove through neighborhoods and areas we liked and wrote down addresses and numbers on houses with signs. I think you do your neighborhood a disservice by hindring the ability to sell a home quickly, the longer it sets the lower the price.

I do think it is advantageous to limit numbers, size, etc.

I completely agree that for sale signs should be allowed. It is unreasonable to not allow them. I found my home in a gated community because of a sign. I was the first one to see the sign after it went up and I bought it within a day.

If I were in a community that would not allow for sale signs and need to sell my home, I would ignore the rule and put a sign up. I would go through all of the appeal procedures, and then pay the fines and consider it a selling cost.

If the board were unreasonable about it, I would consider taking it to small claims court, because rules must be reasonable, or the courts are very likely to set them aside. This is an unreasonable rule because it does impact the ability of a homeowner to market their home.

You have to enforce or change your Codes: If they say "no signs", then you must enforce no signs. If people want to change that rule, then let them vote a change into the CC&R's.

Our codes actually address for sale signs, and allow them. If yours don't, then you must enforce the codes as written, until they are changed.

The advice was that a home owner who wants to sell their home should be able to use every marketing tool available to them, and signs is an important tool. If someone opts to allow strangers in their home without a realtor, that's their choice.

Our docs strictly forbid lawn for sale signs so on our website we have a section for homes for sale. Our docs allow signs in the corner of a front window of a home. In our community we call the realtor who puts in a sign and give them 24 hrs to remove them. We do not fol around as it slows down the lawn maintenance co and then they want a raise period. We are not in business as a HOA to help people sell their houses. We are in business to increase the value of our homes and have been very successfull in doing that. Our homes sold new for 44K to 90k they are presently selling for $275,000 dollars each. I will not as the senior BOD member allow that rule to be changed. Its my job to inspect homes prior to issueing estoppels and signs are way down my list of importance. Remeber a HOA is for the entire membership not the quick house flippers. PERIOD

If you dont read and accept our rules dont move in that is our attitude period

Thank you for replying to my problem with "For Sale" signs; I am in complete agreement with you. Over this past weekend we had 3 different realtors' signs all over our community. The traffic it brought in was awful and they parked all over our lawns. I don't see any good coming from these signs. A good realtor does not need them and a ethical realtor does not do anything to harm the common areas.

Our neighborhood allows one 'for sale' sign in a yard not to exceed a specific size. Signs are not allowed on the common area property at the entrance, they must be across the road.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a 'for sale' sign in a yard. I would think the board would want to be more 'friendly' when it comes to helping the homeowners, old and new. I would want the neighborhood to be a happy place to live and not appear to be some controlling and negative environment in which to live. Yes, we agree to abide by rules when we buy into a covenanted neighborhood but I would think it important to create and maintain a desirable place to live, thus maintaining or increasing the home values.

When it comes time for you to sell your home, I am wondering if you will feel the same about the signs? On another note, we had someone who hadn't paid their dues in 4-5 years and once we filed a lawsuit, the 'for sale' sign went up. The house sold, we collected from the liens, and we are very happy to see them go. Hopefully the new owners will be better residents in the community.

Gerald T Question what is more important ? The people living there or the people leaveing there period. If its in your docs you enforce it period. The members have no say so unless they repeat they are willing to change them I repeat they doo the signs the door to door the announcements the leg work all the work period. I know better after 18 years on a board I know a heck of a lot about what people are willing to do and what they say. easiest way to stop a complainer who dont like the rules is fine you are now a bod aux member your first project is get the paperwork accomplished for the rule changes you want now you go door to door to get 51 percent to agree with you n writing mailed to the assoc. Then you go door to door to get them all signed and mailed back to the MC and we will gladly do what ever you want.

You will never see them again. I know I have done this to 12 different people that wanted a better sign policy than what we got . 18 years and our docs have never been changed and most likely never will.

JM
TFL

JohnM3,

To answer your question, both the people living, and the people leaving are important. Both are an integral component of a communities stability. Piss off either with unreasonable rules, and it hurts the association. Failure to realize this devalues property.

Not sure why you need to reiterate "if it's in your docs you enforce it period". Because that is basically what everyone is saying, including myself. My feeling that prohibiting the signs is irrelevant to the collective decision of a community to say yeah or neah to the rule.

As for going door to door, I have first hand experience in achieveing success to the tune of the developer kicking in 80 trees not originally on plan to benefit 64% of our townhouse units. Some perceived me as a "complainer", but according to the Board of Realtors a tree can add $1,000.00 to $10,000.00 to the value of a home. Bottom line, my "complaint" turned into an $80,000.00 addition, according to statistics.

Perhaps I am the rarity, but I didn't do it alone in my community, so your experience is not the rule, rather an exception as well. Though I will give you one for owner apathy. : )

Here's my post again, so you can re-read what I've stated.

"PennyN1,

The rules you develop in your community are unique. JohnM3 is technically correct, if the rule is no signs, enforcement, and adherance is necessary, the board whether they like it or not, must enforce.

As you can see from the posts, there are benefits to for sale signs in other communities. Clearly the signs increase traffic, perhaps that is the common ground of your situation and other communities. Unfortunately in your community, there was an occurrence where the "traffic" was less than desireable.

However, the signs did not say "Vagrants Welcome".

I believe prohibiting for sale signs, open house, and for sale by owner signs is unreasonable, as they are marketing and directional tools. I believe an association and the residents owe it to themselves to develop a reasonable display policy of some kind because it's in everyone's best interests to have homes that sell, rather than sit on the market.

I do not believe that breaking the rule is correct, and think that change needs to come from the community first, not the board members."

Hope this clairifies my statements for you JohnM3.

GeraldT1
NNJ

I do not know Florida's laws, but in general, you won't win with any type of "altering of lifestyle" suit. The courts will generally rule that you agreed to the standards of the HOA when you purchased, you can't suddenly not agree with them anymore.

Unless there is a specific Florida law that allows a for sale sign, I am betting you will lose any suit against the HOA if the CC&R's forbid any signs, then your "for sale" sign is a violation.

Samual, it is ironic that you say you don't think the courts would allow one person in an HOA to dictate what can and cannot be done, however, in the same paragraph, you extort the person to go to court and force the HOA to do what they (one person) wants done.

People bought into that HOA understanding the rules that said "NO SIGNS"... and then, along comes one person who wants to be different, who wants to dictate to everyone else that they don't have to follow the rules. If that's not a case of one person dictating the rules to everyone else...

If everyone in the HOA wants to allow signs, they can indeed do that. they meet, make a proposal, and vote. Voila, it's done! the will of the people.

However, when one person who doesn't like the will of the people heads to court to get a mandated change, it is no longer the will of the people... it's the will of the one person and a judge.

Dear Brad: Then do not live in a HOA community! Very simple. You sign you obey case closed!

Hello to all of you reading this.

Below is the reply from the (Associations) Assistant General Manager.
I had asked her what the criteria was for approval of a sign. I did send a letter asking for approval of my sign, however they (BOD)did
not EVER respond, they went ahead and had the fine committee meeting and decided to fine me.
This HOA Board of Directors were "appointed" by the President. We were never given the option to vote these people in. I've been here 8 years and it's always been this way. He(The president&Developer) just appointed his son on the board due to an open seat because of a member resigning.
HE(the president) is a tyrant to work with so said the man who resigned.
I am a little confused on how this president can get away with all this shady stuff he is doing.

Here is the response from the Asst. General Manager.

"The Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions state that except as may be required by legal proceedings, or as otherwise permitted by the Association, no sign, displayed or erected upon any Lot, yard, or other Common Area within the Property, or from any window or tree, unless express prior written approval of the size, shape, content and location has been obtained from the DRB, which approval may be withheld in its discretion. The Design Review Board has not to my knowledge ever approved a sign as it has not wished to set a precedent which may open the door for other signs. I would suggest you apply for the size, shape, content and location of the sign you wish to post so that the
Design Review Board may determine if they wish to set a new precedent."

Annie,
1. Did you apply for approval prior to putting the sign in the window?
2. If you did and it was not approved did the Architectural Committee advise why it was not approved?
3. Has the Committee provided the standards which they will approve to all owners?
4. Were you provided the opportunity for a Hearing before being fined? These are some examples of what I mean by due process.

I might request a Hearing prior to paying the fine if 2, 3, and/or 4 give a good basis for not paying. Otherwise I would pay and forget about it.

Annie, they gave you the opportunity for a Hearing and you chose not to attend so pay the fine. Good luck on selling your property.

JohnM3
Posts:89
Posted:10/31/2006 4:59 PM Quote Reply
Dear Brad: Then do not live in a HOA community! Very simple. You sign you obey case closed!

John:

I am not understanding your response? I choose to live in an HOA because I like it. However, our HOA does not forbid you from having for sale signs in your yard. As many have said on here before rules need to be reasonable and in my opinion not allowing someone to place a for sale sign in their yard when they sell is not reasonable. I am sure others feel differently, but that is why I chose to live where I could have one.

Roger:

I agree with you...that is why I bought where we can place signs. We all have opinions, I just don't agree with CC&R's or rules that don't allow For Sale Signs.

Charles - and all others who cannot put a for sale sign in your HOA yard: Contact the state Realty board or maybe a state legistator who is also a Realtor and request that the Realtors lobby your state legislature to adopt a bill allowing for sale signs in HOAs. Realtors obviously have a vested interest in putting for sale signs on property they have listed for sale. It not only identifies that this home is for sale, but also puts the Realtor's name out there for all to see. A state law would then override any HOA statue. The legislators in our state saw fit to establish a bill allowing THEIR political signs be placed in HOAs. I would think a simple for sale sign would not be any more distracting or ugly. Harold

HaroldS,

That is some great advice. That is such a true comparison between political signs and for sale signs. I’ll look into it when the time comes for me to sell. Thanks again,

Chuck W.

Are you part of a BOD of a Hoa?
Cause that is what this site is supposed to be!

Noot only that do you folks understand something your talking about sueing yourselves?
Where do you think the money comes from for paying the lawyers? The man in the moon?
The members of the association pay for everything that goes on in a HOA except theift. Its funny everybody wants a lawyer until they understand who pays for the lawyers. The members period. Understand that before you waste so much time on a very trivial matter.

Harold S,

I believe that all efforts should be made to resolve issues internally within the HOA of which I am a member of in my community.

GeraldT1
NNJ