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Subject: erosion control gone awry

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RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/23/2009 6:19 AM
Did the headlines read: CHATTANOOGA GOATS A GONNA

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/23/2009 6:28 AM
Since everything thing else is blamed on Obama, did the headlines read: CHATTANOOGA OOBAMA GOOATS A DOGGONNA!

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:653

05/23/2009 7:43 AM
Posted By DanaB1 on 05/22/2009 8:25 PM So why doesn't the Corp of Engineers grow it on the levees and dykes in New Orleans to hold them together? Dana - Kudzu has been known to completely choke out waterways and wipe out crop land. As you noted it has "101 uses", but once it gets going it's very difficult to stop. This Wikipedia article has some good info on the stuff. Note that they mention the "near-perfect conditions" of the Southeast for kudzu to grow out of control. It might hold those levees and dykes together in New Orleans, but in the end people would probably prefer the floods since the floods will eventually go away.

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/23/2009 8:10 AM
Hi Dwight, I had the post more tongue 'n cheek than anything. Up here in New England (and other areas) we have the aquatic version of your stuff - milfoil. It's a nasty plant that overtakes ponds and lakes and chokes them down to it's rapidly expanding weeds.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:653

05/23/2009 8:20 AM
Not my stuff. I haven't directly encountered kudzu for 30 years or more. One of the nice things about living in an area with a real winter is you don't have to worry about invasive plants. (yeah, right)

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/23/2009 2:43 PM
Yeah Poison Ivy is so much fun to deal with!

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/26/2009 6:55 PM
I was 'out-of-pocket' for a few days and find the topic of 'erosion control gone awry' had turned into a discussion of dead bodies, goats and kudzu !! Wow...it made my day !! :0) Latest news - my husband and I are meeting with the Board Pres, VP, and a representative of the trucking company this Friday on site. According to the Pres, we are meeting to find a mutually agreeable solution to the rock situation. I have a sick feeling about how this is going to go, I hope I am wrong. Stay tuned..and thanks for all your help.. -G-

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 8:08 AM
Update- We met with contractor and Prez and VP at rock site. Neither Board nor contractor spoke of accepting responsibility for the 'mishap', but from what we could tell, the Board has already agreed to pay the costs of removal and re-addressing the erosion control issue (we assume this is from some previous conversations they had, nothing we were party to..) We stood firm and insisted the rocks be removed from our property, after being asked, once again, if they could just put dirt over it. The contractor agreed to use manual labor to lift rocks into bucket of backhoe, then they'll be put into dump truck. This, presumably, will avoid any further damage. They also discussed ways to fix the erosion issue, which the contractor admitted was not happening on our property. The contractor repeatedly said how expensive this was going to be. The Prez said for the contractor to send him some estimates.. The Prez told us to get a survey done, we said sure as long as the Board pays for it- after all, we didn't create this mess !! We mentioned that this issue was obviously going to need to go before the Board and the VP bristled at the idea. He wants to think he and the Prez can handle it. This cost is going to go way beyond the $200 discretionary amount..(just for the survey alone, for goodness sake)......and the Board may only use 10K in a year without the entire membership voting on the issue.I'd like to ask the secretary/treasurer what has already been spent on the road, but she isn't just going to tell me....she will route it through the Prez first to make sure it's okay to divulge. I'd like to celebrate a victory here, but I am very cautious until it's a done deal..as they say, the best predictor of the future is the past, and we've had some less than stellar performances from the current Board.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/31/2009 8:34 AM
Gail, Well you have a least got some wittinesses to the conversation. I am sure this must have been discussed but why don't you go to a Board meeting and get all this read into the minutes of the meeting. You could submit your synopsis of what you think was said and who agreed on what. Submit it to the Board formally on record and give each Board member a copy. Ask them what their response is to your submission and set a two week deadline for response. That way, your view is public and you are asking for resolution. You clearly point out that you have some kind of expense limit. Be reminded that those documents apply to you as well as any other owner, you are all in this together, and each shares responsibility and enforcement powers(vote), and in your situation you are an aggrieved owner, you also have that right to be heard.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 9:07 AM
Sorry to disagree but I don't think the HOA should pay for your survey. You are the one claiming the rocks are on your property so isn't it really is up to you to show that the rocks are on your property? Do you know where your property line is or not? If you say it is 30' on your property and they agree to move the rocks up to and including to that demarcation point why is a survey necessary?

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 11:48 AM
DJ, The rocks ARE on our property, a fact that the HOA does not dispute. And yes, we DO know where our property boundaries are...But the Board wants the roadway and easement and property boundaries all marked so they don't screw up again, and therefore they are requiring a new survey. They asked for it, they pay for it. They want to make sure they don't remove an inch of rocks more than they have to.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 12:04 PM
So take a spray can and mark the steel survey bars/monuments if you know where where your property boundaries are. There is no need for a survey of your property, they can survey THEIR bounderies which should be the same points as your markers, right? Or are you saying you know 'generally' where your property is rather than the specific survey stakes that should already exist?

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 12:20 PM
We own the property up to the road, but the Board is allowed to use, if needed, a 20' easement from the center line of the road for the care and maintenance of the road. That 20' feet is not marked, nor is the center of the road, so we could, admittedly, be off some in our measurements. But we are not off by 30', so they have indeed encroached onto our property and they acknowledge that. I made the same point that this should be 'their' survey to the Pres (road and easement), but he insisted it be done by us because 'the surveyors will not step onto your property unless you ask it to be done'. And technically the 20' easement is our property.. Make sense??

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

05/31/2009 12:27 PM
No. It doesn't make sense. It did until that last post. So you are saying there is 50 feet of rocks? 20 feet on the easement and an additional 30 feet into your property? Obviously you are only requesting the 30 feet rock-carpet to be moved, right? Not the 20 feet on the easement? If you own up to the road, and the area from the edge of the road down was eroding, then, in fact, your property was eroding, right?

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 12:28 PM
Makes more sense but here (Canada) surveyors can enter any property if it is for survey purposes with or without the property owners permission, so I wouldn't necessarily believe their argument. I'd be darn sure to get a quote, and then get it in writing that THEY are going to pay for it, BEFORE I spent one penny.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 12:36 PM
Michelle, the 20' easement starts at the centre of the road, so depending on the width of the road from the centre, there can't be much unpaved (or gravel) road left where the easement applies. Good point on the erosion though.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 12:43 PM
Off topic, but I guess it could be worse. Georgia wants to move the state line 1 mile into Tennessee due to a survey mistake. They want to claim a river! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23076509/

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 1:06 PM
Yes, indeed, there are 50 feet of rocks. And technically, you are right, Michele, if you want to consider the 20' easement that the Board is able to utilize, still our property, then you are correct- there is erosion on our property. We were actually 'giving' them that 20' to do their job, and only saying there was 30' of 'trespassing' rock. In reality, the erosion started on the road, which the HOA owns and is responsible for....so, you could say their failure to properly maintain the road caused ANY erosion that has occured..

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 1:09 PM
Some times property lines ARE very important...haha :0)

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/31/2009 1:24 PM
Gail, Your 12:20 pm post said -you own "up to the road", -there is a "20' easement from the centre line of the road", -"technically the 20' easement is our property", Your 1:09 pm post said - "there are 50' of rocks" - "if you want to consider the 20' easement that the Board is able to utilize, still our property, then you are correct- there is erosion on our property. We were actually 'giving' them that 20' to do their job, and only saying there was 30' of 'trespassing' rock.," How can you own 'up to the road' if the 20' easement begins from the centre line? These numbers don't make sense. Does your property START from the centre line of the road? Do you see the conflict with your above comments?

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/31/2009 2:11 PM
Posted By GailW5 on 05/31/2009 1:06 PM In reality, the erosion started on the road, which the HOA owns and is responsible for....so, you could say their failure to properly maintain the road caused ANY erosion that has occured.. Okay, time to jump in; I'd like to know if you had one massive rain that eroded the road and shoulder causing this work to be needed in the first place. For you to now state that they failed to maintain the road is really a stretch, especially since their act of trying to maintain the road is what your upset about to begin with. If you have a 20' ROW from the center line of the road and I'd guess that the main road is about 16 to 18 feet wide then that means your ROW is an additional 12 to 14 from the edge of the road. So any rock beyond that 12 to 14 from the gutter line is on your property. That's a lot of rock that they need to get out. OUCH, my aching back. Not to sound negative but this is how I see it playing out....... I'm afraid that in the end there will be no celebrations or victors here Gail. I'll be curious to see if the board is leading you along then within the walls of the meeting the topic is ignored in hopes that it somehow just goes away. (Sorry but I tend to take a half glass full kind of approach, blame Michele for this as she has ingrained it in me with her posts.) Or it will be brought forward at the meeting and the cost will be prohibitive thus causing the job not to be done; or due to you hiring an attorney (or not) it goes forward but at a premium cost to each association resident,thereby causing you to be scorned by your community and labeled a trouble maker from here on out. Or it will all be resolved from here on out with little fanfare with all those involved pleased with the final result and the board will have learned several valuable lessons. I doubt it will take this path, but then again miracles have happened before. If you have the chance I'd love to hear more detail as to how they plan to remove the rock. Will the back hoe/ loader drive down your drive way and the illegal aliens (oops - laborers) will then be lifting each rock, walking across your "hopefully" flat front yard and place them in the bucket of the machine? It will also be interesting to see how many pages it takes this thread before arriving at the final outcome. It will be an interesting summer.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 2:56 PM
Dana, This was not a one-time massive rain that created an erosion issue, but instead, rain over many, many months. We have our roads 'worked on' once a year. This year they decided to regravel (which they do every year)and deal with road erosion (which they have not done in the 9 years we have owned this property). The contractor told the Pres at the site that this kind of issue have been avoided by a more frequent attention to the road. Forget the measurements, let's just say its a lot of rocks that have to be moved - the contractor estimates that it will take 4 men (yes, laborers) at least one full day to move them to the bucket of a backhoe and then lift them to the dump truck sitting on the road. The backhoe will not have access from our driveway as it is too far from the rock site..as I have said before the erosion issue if off of the main road and they will work from there.(Front yard ?? are you kidding, we're in the mountains !!) I agree with you, I don't think there is a chance in, well, you know..that this will be resolved without an ugly legal battle. As far as being scorned by the community and labeled a troublemaker, we have our friends and supporters and for the rest, phewey !! (couldn't think of any other word or phrases I could use here) And it will be an interesting summer, especially at our annual meeting in August !! Of course, we'll probably be in litigation by then and unable to discuss the issue. :0) -G-

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/31/2009 3:43 PM
Posted By GailW5 on 05/31/2009 2:56 PM Dana, This year they decided to regravel (which they do every year)and deal with road erosion (which they have not done in the 9 years we have owned this property). The contractor told the Pres at the site that this kind of issue have been avoided by a more frequent attention to the road. It sounds like everyone was trying to cover their own butts and throwing all others under the bus at this meeting. You should have an iteresting summer. Do you have evidence of other areas wherein the board has not acted effectively, if in fact it comes to be that they didn't in this case? Perhaps your rock issue is the tip of the mountain. Or do you feel that all in all they are a good group that just messed up with this? Time for a recall or what? Good luck Gail. I'll be interested to see how it plays out. Dana

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/31/2009 5:42 PM
To all, IMHO I doubt we can adjudicate any of this, and that seems to be the direction this post is going. I know one thing, I live in SC and I sure am not going to decide any of this. I think we have to step back a little and see if we can't give some constructive direction about how Gail should procede. She is the one under the gun and has to poke and jab at things she feels might help her cause.......as she sees it. My concern is there seems to be something odd about the Pres and VP not wanting to inform the Board. No matter how many feet of what are involved this issue (as we hear it), is distrubing. She could be right or wrong or both parties cound be right or wrong but it is happening on their HOA and the Board needs to be involved............no doubt about it. I really hope that Gail would not try and settle this with the Pres and VP and make some settlement with those two. That would make another wrong.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/31/2009 7:02 PM
Just got reamed out over the phone by the VP for sending an email to reconfirm the fact that the Board has agreed to pay for the survey, and for saying that I would be sending a summary on what happened at our meeting. He said 'don't send anymore emails, cause it looks like you don't trust us !!' (Oh, ya think ??!!) Haha...I swear to you all, I am NOT making this up !! Classic, ain't it !! I am going to go now and do some serious drinking..(soda, of course !!) :0) Thanks everyone...

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/31/2009 8:32 PM
Gail, Tell us again why you didn't take this problem to an meeting of the BOD of your association. I seem to recall there was some talk the Pres and VP asked you not to bring it before the full Board. You apparently agreed to work it out with them. Why? What did you hope to gain? Were you going to cut a deal with them? What kind of deal? Your last post says the VP reamed you out on the phone? Why? Did you break a promise or back out of a deal? I suspect you are slowly losing credibility here. At this point I really hope this whole episode is simply a matter of the Board refusing to do the job they are elected to do. You, as a member of the association have a signed obligation to uphold your documents. What does your documents say about how to resolve differences. Most documents are very specific about enforcement and resolution of differences. Most document instruct members to seek resolution through the Board, yet so far you haven't received any constructive information. Would I be close if I suggested you have a personal agenda you want to settle without exposing you and your husband to any involvement with your community. Who were you going to send a summary of your talk to, you didn't mention that, only you were going to send a summary. I am not giving up on you Gail I am just trying to determine if you are playing both ends against the middle. Is this simply you against two Board members that responded to you, that just happen to be the Pres and VP. There's a devil in the woodpile somewhere. All my humble opinion.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

06/01/2009 4:58 AM
Gail, I think that you and the Board need to take a serious TIME OUT. Everyone is now postured for battle and no one is going to win.You already said "litigation" I am sorry to say but I think that you have gone overboard in your rock fight. The Board is doing what they need to on those gravel roads. I'll bet that with the recent massive rains, you would not have one without those rocks having been dumped. Sorry but I cannot grasp why you are this angry.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

06/01/2009 6:08 AM
I'm not suspicious of Gail's motives. The VP reaming you out for confirming in writing, what was discussed, isn't about her lacking trust of them, it is prudent so as to ensure everyone is on the same page. His offense is FAR more consistent with them not wanting to have a written record to cover their own butts when this goes to litigation. Second, Gail, I don't think you can simply dismiss the inconsistencies in the measurement issue by saying "let's just say its a lot of rocks that have to be moved". IF your are correct that the "20' easement from the centre line of the road", AND "technically the 20' easement is our property", then YOU own the road so why are they maintaining it.

MaryA1

Posts:0

06/01/2009 9:00 AM
DJ, This sounds like the type of easement (or right of way) we have in our assn. Where a city street borders our assn, there is an easement (right of way) from the center of the road to the wall (our communities are walled in) and the assn is responsibile for maintaining this area. I'm thinking the 20' easement is really assn property and is calculated from the center of the road to the edge of Gail's property and she is resp. for maintaining this easement area. The rocks were dumped in this easement area and some (or alot!!) rolled onto Gail's adjoining property. The rocks that are on Gail's property are the ones she is concerned about having removed by the BOD. The BOD wants a survey of Gail's property so they know exactly where her property line begins. I doubt it extends into the 20' easement area, but I'm thinking the board wants to know this for certain. Of course they could take a look at the plat map for the assn and it would should any easement areas (and the measurements) and the property line for Gail's property and how large her lot is.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

06/01/2009 9:24 AM
Posted By MaryA1 on 06/01/2009 9:00 AM The rocks were dumped in this easement area and some (or alot!!) rolled onto Gail's adjoining property. The rocks that are on Gail's property are the ones she is concerned about having removed by the BOD.. I just have one minor correction here. From the report of whomever looked the pictures, the boulders/rocks do not appear to be "dumped," nor, according to whomever reviewed, do they appear to have "rolled" into Gail's property. I recall (without going back through the thread) that it was of the opinion of the person who knows this sort of thing, that the rocks were placed there individually, properly, and not haphazardly, it's just that they were placed to the extent that they are now on Gail's property. Which, regardless of where the actual "line" is, it appears that in order to correct most of the erosion problem, they would have had to have gone on SOME of her property anyway. Just don't know how far. If this is an issue of erosion control, I would not be surprised if some sort of "eminent domain" theory gets thrown around somewhere.

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