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GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/06/2009 4:55 PM
Any suggestions on this issue would be appreciated. Here's the deal- once a year our HOA refurbishes our mountain community roads; some gravel, some asphalt. HOA may use up to 20' from the center of the road for eroion control. This year, there were several areas where the road was eroding and needed to be shored up. The plan of attack (not sure what genius devised this one..) was to back a dump truck up to the spot and dump tons (I kid you not) of white granite rocks (soccer ball size) down the side of the road, straight down the steep incline. It gets better. Not only did they dump rocks on "their" 20', but also 30' more from our property as well. We now have tons of rocks on our personal property. We get to view the whole 'structure' from our dining room table and front deck. Picture seeing the side of a dam as you eat breakfast, it's not pretty...(the good news, if there is any, is tha we are set back from the road..but not nearly enough NOW !!) When we called the President of the HOA, he said, "I'll have to have a look". And so he did. His first comment was "Can't we just cover it with dirt?" "Or", he said, "maybe we could just paint it." We politely informed him that's not acceptable. Since then he has had quite the attitude. Figuring it was going to cost over the President's limit of $200 discretionary money to correct, we notified the Board. No response. Any ideas on where to go from here ?? Thank you so much. -Gail-

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1665

05/06/2009 5:53 PM
Unfortunately, the best course of action would be to request a polite letter from an attorney requesting that they correct the problem without delay.

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/06/2009 6:58 PM
Hi Gail, The idea to stop a slope from eroding by putting rock on it is not a "new" idea but to just dump a load of rock at the top of a slope and expect it to "magically" spread out evenly over the slope is where the stupidity comes in. I'm sure that your board was sold on the idea that the way it was done would work by some idiot that sold them on "price" and not "quality". Now that most of the rock rolled to the base of the slope they would definitely need a piece of heavy equipment to drag the rock back up the slope and spread it the way it should have been done. Since I can't see the slope to know how long or steep it is I can't tell you the size of the back hoe/excavator type machine needed to finish the job. Good luck with this one. Your board either realizes they screwed up but are trying to cover up or they just don't want to spend the money to do it right. Having been in excavation work for all my life I'm more than just a pretty face as to how it should be done. Did they put down a type of cloth liner on the slope before dumping the stone? For your President to now want to cover the purchased rock with purchased topsoil makes me laugh; thanks, I needed a laugh. Dana

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/06/2009 7:00 PM
Having said all that, I concur with Kirk. Looks like your in for a battle. :-) Dana

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/06/2009 7:04 PM
Gail, You seem to be detached from your association. Do you go to meetings, is there communication from the Board you are ignoring. Certainly you are going to have to extend your concern beyond a letter to the President, it seems. Go to some board meeting, have a say and ask some questions, read you documents, contact other Board members. See if you have any support in your neighborhood to do anything about this undesirable (to you) condition. If so , get them together and approach the Board for consideration. Keep good records, make sure you impress upon the board that you intend to utilize any authority you have from your documents to get a considered response from your Board. Sounds like maybe this is the start of something good for your association if harm is being done and no notice is made.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/06/2009 7:19 PM
Robert, We have one meeting a year- in August. I always attend. Board meeting are held via teleconference. Our Bylaws state that all Board meetings are open to all Members, but when I asked to be included in their next one, they said they've decided not to have any more until the Annual meeting (at the time, 9 months away). I have contacted , via email, each Board member, on this matter. No response from any of them as of yet. I will try to get neighborhood support. Thee are only a few full-time residents, so it may take some time. But clearly, the rocks aren't going anywhere !! I have photos of the 'scene', dates and times of conversations and started a file.. As a former teacher, I know all about the need to document,document,document. Thanks for your comments and suggestion.. -Gail-

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/06/2009 7:33 PM
Dana, I don't suppose you'd like to make a nice little trip to Georgia to check out our situation ??!! we can put you up and feed you some good southern cooking !! The Board is always sold on "cheap and easy"..the President always says "I'm all about easy". What ever happened to right ?? Anh admit the did something wrong ?? Oh no, not gonna happen. The Prs says it's the contractos fault. We are afraid that heavy equipment will be needed to bring the rock back up, unfortunately, it is a very forested area down there and I know this will cause further damage (they already cut some of our trees down.) No, they did not put any cloth liner before dumping the rocks..and they used a dead tree( from OUR lot) as a barrier to keep the rocks from going further down.. They must be a better way to control erosion. I appreciate your insight. -Gail-

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/06/2009 8:26 PM
Gail, Gail; timing is everything. I was just a stones throw away in South Carolina 2 weeks ago. LOL Did you take digital pictures? If you'd like, email a few to me and I'll be able to give you a bit better insight. I have a throwaway email address of wsrainbarrel@gmail.com Send them to that address. Using a downed tree to stop the rocks, classy. LOL I also like the way your board doesn't meet for 9 months; I wish I could do that with my board. When do they plan on making the budget? :-) I don't mean to make lite of your situation but jeez this is one is a classic. Dana

JaniceM1
(Georgia)

Posts:27

05/06/2009 9:06 PM
Gail- What part of Georgia are you in? I am sure the enegineers at the DOT won't be to happy to hear about this. If it is a County or State road contact Leigh Priestley Environmental Compliance Bureau Administrator (404) 463-1049. Even if it's not they can help guide you with what can be done. Most communities don't own the road or the right of way, they have the right to maintain it, but this sounds more than maintenance. Pictures, pictures, pictures & document, document, document!!! I would ask the HOA to provide an enegineers report for the dumping of said rocks and any other minutes and information they can provide on this little project. Janice

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/07/2009 1:50 AM
Gail. I think the information you have received so far is extremely important. It is coming from more than one direction and is all seems to suggest some underlying problems exist. You sound capable enough to process this into some organized format to help you find out more about the rock problem. As you go along you probably are going to find out a lot of things about your association you didn't know and you need to know. If the rock situation is going to get resolved you may find that are a lot of things going on that serve as more barriers to get to where you want to go. From what little you have posted, several warning signs appear that signal a bigger problem than rocks. All or most of those "rocks" must be turned over to see what is under them. In preparation I would start finding out all you can about your organization. Best place to start is court house property records. May be available on line, but is certainly obtainable. You want to know what you are dealing with, not only property records but court records, developer records, current legal suits involving your association or M/C or developer if still in the picture. You want to get to the point you know at least as much as your management, and check them out also. This could be an isolated case where mistakes were made and no one knows how to correct them. But, I think you should know that. The consensus posting here and add mine is there is more going on that reckless rock dumping.........someone got paid to haul all those rock there and someone paid them to do it. It is part your money, you have the right to find out who and why. I would involve your neighbors as much as possible and from that small little group of two or three people, build on it, to start give everyone a piece of the action to find out about, then in a couple days meet again and see where you are going. DO NOT be secretive, be completely open, no secrets no personal agendas, your goal is a better association. You know what has been done, now you need to know who did it and why. You absolutely are on solid ground wanting to answer these questions. It appears you are not going to like some of the answers you will find, I hope I am wrong, I hope the others suggesting this are wrong also.

SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:1529

05/07/2009 11:05 AM
It doesn't sound like the HOA is involved at all. Kinda sounds like trespassing. Just because you have a property issue, doesn't mean it falls under the HOA. Sounds like you live in a HOA neighborhood with separate houses on separate lots. I'm just guessing. In this case the HOA might not touch it. The large chunk of land taken over by the rocks will more than likely turn into an easement if you do nothing about it. You need to retain a real estate attorney to help you. 1. Of paramount importance is placing something of record (i.e., a filing with the register of deeds in your county) that places prospective purchasers of this property on notice of the encroachments constructed onto your property. This must be done carefully, as an improperly drafted notice could constitute "slander of title" and cause problems for you. 2. If you do not have a valid plat of survey on your property, it is time to invest in one. It is easy to get the law on your side; but you need to hire a surveyor to PROVE your legal boundaries. 3. You should try to get documentary evidence (e.g., a signed letter or affidavit) from your neighbor indicating that the rock is on your property and he considers you its owner, and that he makes no claim of ownership or easement rights over any portion of your property, and iif they decline to provide such a statement you should seek to eject them as trespassers. 4. Check out the property line, he has in all likelihood violated applicable setback requirements set forth in the local zoning ordinance. You should investigate that as well. But, bottom line is, you can't do this yourself. You really need a local attorney to help you. Good luck,

MaryA1

Posts:0

05/07/2009 11:11 AM
Gail, Your BOD needs to contact a professional (some type of engineer I'm sure) to determine the best method of repairing the road. Perhaps the city/county could be of service. However, it appears that the BOD's method of repair is not the correct method especially if it doesn't correct the erosion problem and results in loss of property value to neighboring properties.

SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:1529

05/07/2009 4:49 PM
Whoops I read that wrong. I didn't realize it was the HOA that dumped the rocks. I thought it was a neighbor and you asked the HOA to fix it. Some of my response it still valid. (wink)

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/11/2009 11:49 AM
Okay..here's an update. My husband and I have heard from the President and Vice-President asking to meet with us and the company that did the roadwork. The Officers want to meet at the 'scene' and discuss remedies. Okay so far, right ?? Maybe. I asked if any other Board members had been advised and invited to come. The response concerns me; they said they didn't want to involve the whole Board, and that they only had to get the Boards approval if it involved more than $200..who do they think will remove tons of rocks for that amount ??!! Maybe it's just me, but I think I smell a rat ??!! Are we about to be strong-armed into a less than satisfactory solution ?? Any thoughts on how we can protect ourselves?? Thank you.. -Gail-

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/11/2009 1:25 PM
My opinion? I think your instinct may be right and it may have more to do with your own protection, since you said you smell a rat. I can think of no reason the Pres and VP would relay a message like that. I also suspect all this was via phone. In any case, send a e-mail message to both of them and and explain what you understand about the meeting, from their message to you. Define exactly what you understand and ask if that is correct and get it in writing.I would also add you and your's would be much more comfortable with the involvement of the whole board but hope this meeting will be a precursor to such a meeting. I would also add that it is your intention to bring along a video camera to take pictures and make notes. Just be very professional about it and explain it is in the best interests of all concerned that there is a complete understanding, and you and your husband are very interested in a compatible agreement. Having said that I have to leave to your judgment if this would backfire. As you say, this is not a $200.00 fix, lots more involved and Gods knows what that is. Has the Board had a meeting recently, have you read the minutes? It could be this is a board decision and might be in the minutes, if not, take care. You are smart to consider all this and so far, the board's response doesn't sound like the way to resolve anything. If you have another neighbor that supports your interest, take them along. After reading a mess of posts on this site, I think most of the responders here are beyond knee jerk reactions, I hope I am also, something is out of kilter.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

05/12/2009 4:42 AM
Rat? Could also be that it is just easier to quickly get a meeting with the Prez/VP attending. If you want everyone in attendance it is likely you won't get as quick a meeting so if you are satisfied with delays that would be up to you. There seems to be a number of options available to you. I don't think you need to worry about being strong armed since that is entirely within your control as to whether you want to agree to something, or not. -You could meet and they can try to tell you there is no problem, or that they are not on your property. -They could ask you to agree to leave the rocks as is to save the HOA the expense. If you would be 'satisfied' with that resolution then I'd be sure to ask for something in writing that no further rocks will be added to the area ON your property, and/or some acknowledgement that by agreeing, you are not giving up your claim to this portion of YOUR property...or in the counter, that they will not ever make a claim to this part of YOUR property. The latter kind of places them in a position that they are admitting they screwed up, so if they refuse to do this it makes your decision easier as to whether you want to force the removal. -They could agree to remove the rocks on YOUR property, (and any that may fall back onto your property later, after the first ones are removed). In this case I'd make sure to bring a spray paint can to mark the ground so there is no miscommunication as to what area is actually to be cleaned. -some other option I've not thought of.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/16/2009 6:24 PM
Further update....I sent an email, as Robert suggested, and received a reply from the President and he says we must have misunderstood. He doesn't plan to ask the road company (that dumped the aforementioned rocks on our property)to attend our meeting on site. He says he will meet with them privately later. What could possibly be gained by the four of us (me, hubby, Prez and VP) looking at a bunch of rocks and trying to figure out what to do about it ?? None of us are in the road business, how will we know what'll work and what won't ?? The experts need to be there, IMO.. Any thoughts or suggestions.... Thanks to all of you who have weighed in on this issue. And Robert, you were right on point !! Thanks, man ! -Gail-

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1665

05/17/2009 7:24 AM
I am on the same page as your VP and President. They should come out and survey the damage. How much of this stuff is on your property and what else may be hidden? Further, without having some confidence I wouldn't care rush into having the person blamed for the problem meet the owner. (I am not saying it would be volatile, but only that there is a potential.) From the sound of it, the road is not on your property. If the road is deeded, then knowing where the boundaries are can help. People assume all sorts of things when this comes up. Most is based on rules from the center line of the road which are used when the road isn't deeded separately.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/17/2009 7:46 AM
Kirk, Might be a good idea to clarify what was posted in the past. It seems clear that the invitation to meet with the developer/contractor, whatever, came from the president and VP to begin with. I don't have a clue what is going on but I can find no fault in Gail trying to find out what is happening in front of her house and settle the question of where her property lines are. Any contractor with common sense must know where he is placing the rock. I would also invite those that haven't to read the comment further back in this post that was posted by an expert in just this kind of revetment (?) work.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

05/17/2009 8:11 AM
I think it's possible the president and the VP are aware of the potential cost/expense/liability involved and want the four of you to meet to see just how deep this is. Then, were I the president, I would go back to the company that did the work and make them fix it, for $200 or less. They (the company that did the work) are the one's responsible and liable for any damage and improper work product. If the P and VP can meet with the vendor after meeting with you guys to then "strong-arm" the vendor, that's probably a good first step. Of course, there's a risk there, too, in that the Larry, Moe & Curly Road Crew Inc. may not be the best crew to make come back and fix it! (S-l-o-w-l-y I turn, step by step . . .) Anyway, if I were on the board, that's the angle I'd take first.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/17/2009 8:26 AM
Perhaps I should have been more clear about this, the four of us have already been at the site together..now, IMO, we need the road folks..what's the point of meeting again just to rehash our ideas when no one there has the expertise to know whether what we think will work or not ?? It just seems like common sense.... -Gail-

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/17/2009 8:58 AM
Gail, From your perspective, I wouldn't meet anymore with the Pres and VP. If they have a solution that resolves your concern, let them present it to you, and no deals. I fail to see how that is, at this point, unreasonable. The only thing you can agree to with the Pres and VP is to make some concession, and loose something. The Pres and VP are responsible, they inserted the association when they contracted the work, and they continued when they asked to meet with you. If they have some answers.......fine..........if they want to involve you in the process of clearing this up with the contractor, you can meet with him on your own, you don't need the Board. If your property has been violated, you want restitution and correction. Anything they do on association property is the Boards business, you can fight with them if you want. My point is, you offered the Olive Branch, the Board responded, you questioned their proposal, they came back and said they didn't say they wanted you to meet with contractor. Now it is being suggested the Board has clean hands and is only trying to solve the problem. Fine...............let them solve the problem and you and you alone be the judge of how happy you are with your issue.

MaryA1

Posts:0

05/17/2009 9:12 AM
Gail, Exactly!! Perhaps you missed my earlier response: 05/07/2009 11:11 AM Quote Reply Gail, Your BOD needs to contact a professional (some type of engineer I'm sure) to determine the best method of repairing the road. Perhaps the city/county could be of service. However, it appears that the BOD's method of repair is not the correct method especially if it doesn't correct the erosion problem and results in loss of property value to neighboring properties.

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/17/2009 9:45 AM
I have asked, they refuse to contact an engineer and have refused to survey the area. The city and county say that they do not own the road. The care and maintenance of the road is the sole responsibility of the BOD. Thanks, Mary.. :0)

GailW5
(Georgia)

Posts:19

05/17/2009 11:10 AM
I am confused, do we or do we not have a right, as the property owners where they dumped the rocks and caused damage to our lot, to approve of their method of removing the rocks ?? Or can they just take them out any way they want, even if it causes more damage to our property ?? -G-

DanaB1
(Connecticut)

Posts:319

05/17/2009 1:05 PM
Gail, If you would forward me some digital pictures of your yard, the slope, an the pile of rocks I'd be happy to offer some suggestions as to how it might be repaired; a picture is worth a thousand words. My short answer in no, the assocation can't trash your yard and then just leave it that way. Email me some photos............... wsrainbarrel@gmail.com Dana

MaryA1

Posts:0

05/17/2009 2:10 PM
Gail, Do you have their refusal in writing? If not, then I would suggest you write them a letter asking for an engineer to survey the area and ask that they reply in writing. Then you will have this documentation should you end up in court over this.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/17/2009 4:53 PM
Gail, As I mentioned once before I think you should take Dana up on his generous offer. He is offering knowledge that you don't have. Not that you can go to court with what he says, but I bet you will understand the situation better. I also would add the county or any private company has no right to trash your property. Personally, I am at a loss to understand why your association is not in lock step with your efforts to rectify this situation. My opinions are based on what you have posted. I do not find anything you say to be so unusual. I am sure Dana could tell you some funny stories about rock dumping alongside roads to control erosion and run off. Nor do I find the actions of the Pres and VP to be off the wall. They would not be the first BOD members to step into a cow pie. Lord knows we have all done that.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1665

05/17/2009 6:52 PM
I don't think you have a right to dictate the means of cleanup that is used. But you do have a right to expect them to make you "whole." This means that they should put it back as close as possible to what it was before. I personally believe that are two issues here. One is to fix your yard, the other is to fix the road. Though I don't understand exactly what happened, if the rock is in your yard it isn't doing what it was intended to do. And I have a hard believing that the Board asked a company to simply dump some rock to the side of the road.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

05/17/2009 7:20 PM
Kirk, I don't know why you would think a Board would not hire a Company to fix an erosion problem. If all is as presented, the Board hired the company, that seems to be clear. That is as far as we have got so far. Who instructed who to do what is a question. The facts seem to be the rocks were dumped in part on private property, Gails property. The Board wanted to meet with Gail to discuss this problem. Gail asked to be informed in writing what the Board wanted to talk about. The Board responded they did ask to met with Gail about this problem. Gail wants to be made whole, the erosion problem is not her problem as far as she knows. I am sure the Board didn't hire a company to create this problem, but there it is, who else are you going to blame. If Gail sues the Company she is also suing the association and anyone else the Board contracted with to do the job. There is also an issue of this Company (maybe) trespassing on Gail property and removing her property to do the job they were paid to do. All the Board should do is turn this over to their lawyer. Inform Gail they are doing everything they can do to address this issue and help her be made whole. The question about the correctness of the job should be determined by the contract the Board signed to get the work done. Do you think the Board did this without contract specifications and maybe EPA approval and were looking for a quick fix? Naw, the Board wouldn't do that.

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