erosion control gone awry

Unfortunately, the best course of action would be to request a polite letter from an attorney requesting that they correct the problem without delay.

Having said all that, I concur with Kirk. Looks like your in for a battle.

:-)

Dana

Robert,
We have one meeting a year- in August. I always attend. Board meeting are held via teleconference. Our Bylaws state that all Board meetings are open to all Members, but when I asked to be included in their next one, they said they've decided not to have any more until the Annual meeting (at the time, 9 months away). I have contacted , via email, each Board member, on this matter. No response from any of them as of yet.

I will try to get neighborhood support. Thee are only a few full-time residents, so it may take some time. But clearly, the rocks aren't going anywhere !! I have photos of the 'scene', dates and times of conversations and started a file.. As a former teacher, I know all about the need to document,document,document.

Thanks for your comments and suggestion..

-Gail-

Gail, Gail; timing is everything. I was just a stones throw away in South Carolina 2 weeks ago. LOL

Did you take digital pictures? If you'd like, email a few to me and I'll be able to give you a bit better insight.

I have a throwaway email address of [email protected] Send them to that address.

Using a downed tree to stop the rocks, classy. LOL

I also like the way your board doesn't meet for 9 months; I wish I could do that with my board. When do they plan on making the budget? :-)

I don't mean to make lite of your situation but jeez this is one is a classic.
Dana

Gail.
I think the information you have received so far is extremely important. It is coming from more than one direction and is all seems to suggest some underlying problems exist. You sound capable enough to process this into some organized format to help you find out more about the rock problem. As you go along you probably are going to find out a lot of things about your association you didn't know and you need to know. If the rock situation is going to get resolved you may find that are a lot of things going on that serve as more barriers to get to where you want to go. From what little you have posted, several warning signs appear that signal a bigger problem than rocks. All or most of those "rocks" must be turned over to see what is under them. In preparation I would start finding out all you can about your organization. Best place to start is court house property records. May be available on line, but is certainly obtainable. You want to know what you are dealing with, not only property records but court records, developer records, current legal suits involving your association or M/C or developer if still in the picture. You want to get to the point you know at least as much as your management, and check them out also.
This could be an isolated case where mistakes were made and no one knows how to correct them. But, I think you should know that. The consensus posting here and add mine is there is more going on that reckless rock dumping.........someone got paid to haul all those rock there and someone paid them to do it. It is part your money, you have the right to find out who and why. I would involve your neighbors as much as possible and from that small little group of two or three people, build on it, to start give everyone a piece of the action to find out about, then in a couple days meet again and see where you are going. DO NOT be secretive, be completely open, no secrets no personal agendas, your goal is a better association.
You know what has been done, now you need to know who did it and why.
You absolutely are on solid ground wanting to answer these questions.
It appears you are not going to like some of the answers you will find, I hope I am wrong, I hope the others suggesting this are wrong also.

Gail,

Your BOD needs to contact a professional (some type of engineer I'm sure) to determine the best method of repairing the road. Perhaps the city/county could be of service. However, it appears that the BOD's method of repair is not the correct method especially if it doesn't correct the erosion problem and results in loss of property value to neighboring properties.

Okay..here's an update. My husband and I have heard from the President and Vice-President asking to meet with us and the company that did the roadwork. The Officers want to meet at the 'scene' and discuss remedies. Okay so far, right ?? Maybe. I asked if any other Board members had been advised and invited to come. The response concerns me; they said they didn't want to involve the whole Board, and that they only had to get the Boards approval if it involved more than $200..who do they think will remove tons of rocks for that amount ??!! Maybe it's just me, but I think I smell a rat ??!! Are we about to be strong-armed into a less than satisfactory solution ?? Any thoughts on how we can protect ourselves??

Thank you..
-Gail-

Rat? Could also be that it is just easier to quickly get a meeting with the Prez/VP attending. If you want everyone in attendance it is likely you won't get as quick a meeting so if you are satisfied with delays that would be up to you.

There seems to be a number of options available to you. I don't think you need to worry about being strong armed since that is entirely within your control as to whether you want to agree to something, or not.

-You could meet and they can try to tell you there is no problem, or that they are not on your property.

-They could ask you to agree to leave the rocks as is to save the HOA the expense. If you would be 'satisfied' with that resolution then I'd be sure to ask for something in writing that no further rocks will be added to the area ON your property, and/or some acknowledgement that by agreeing, you are not giving up your claim to this portion of YOUR property...or in the counter, that they will not ever make a claim to this part of YOUR property. The latter kind of places them in a position that they are admitting they screwed up, so if they refuse to do this it makes your decision easier as to whether you want to force the removal.

-They could agree to remove the rocks on YOUR property, (and any that may fall back onto your property later, after the first ones are removed). In this case I'd make sure to bring a spray paint can to mark the ground so there is no miscommunication as to what area is actually to be cleaned.

-some other option I've not thought of.

I am on the same page as your VP and President. They should come out and survey the damage. How much of this stuff is on your property and what else may be hidden? Further, without having some confidence I wouldn't care rush into having the person blamed for the problem meet the owner. (I am not saying it would be volatile, but only that there is a potential.)

From the sound of it, the road is not on your property. If the road is deeded, then knowing where the boundaries are can help. People assume all sorts of things when this comes up. Most is based on rules from the center line of the road which are used when the road isn't deeded separately.

I think it's possible the president and the VP are aware of the potential cost/expense/liability involved and want the four of you to meet to see just how deep this is.

Then, were I the president, I would go back to the company that did the work and make them fix it, for $200 or less.

They (the company that did the work) are the one's responsible and liable for any damage and improper work product.

If the P and VP can meet with the vendor after meeting with you guys to then "strong-arm" the vendor, that's probably a good first step.

Of course, there's a risk there, too, in that the Larry, Moe & Curly Road Crew Inc. may not be the best crew to make come back and fix it! (S-l-o-w-l-y I turn, step by step . . .)

Anyway, if I were on the board, that's the angle I'd take first.

Gail,
From your perspective, I wouldn't meet anymore with the Pres and VP. If they have a solution that resolves your concern, let them present it to you, and no deals. I fail to see how that is, at this point, unreasonable. The only thing you can agree to with the Pres and VP is to make some concession, and loose something. The Pres and VP are responsible, they inserted the association when they contracted the work, and they continued when they asked to meet with you. If they have some answers.......fine..........if they want to involve you in the process of clearing this up with the contractor, you can meet with him on your own, you don't need the Board. If your property has been violated, you want restitution and correction. Anything they do on association property is the Boards business, you can fight with them if you want.

My point is, you offered the Olive Branch, the Board responded, you questioned their proposal, they came back and said they didn't say they wanted you to meet with contractor. Now it is being suggested the Board has clean hands and is only trying to solve the problem. Fine...............let them solve the problem and you and you alone be the judge of how happy you are with your issue.

I have asked, they refuse to contact an engineer and have refused to survey the area.
The city and county say that they do not own the road.
The care and maintenance of the road is the sole responsibility of the BOD.
Thanks, Mary.. :0)

Gail,

If you would forward me some digital pictures of your yard, the slope, an the pile of rocks I'd be happy to offer some suggestions as to how it might be repaired; a picture is worth a thousand words.

My short answer in no, the assocation can't trash your yard and then just leave it that way.

Email me some photos............... [email protected]

Dana

Gail,
As I mentioned once before I think you should take Dana up on his generous offer. He is offering knowledge that you don't have. Not that you can go to court with what he says, but I bet you will understand the situation better.

I also would add the county or any private company has no right to trash your property. Personally, I am at a loss to understand why your association is not in lock step with your efforts to rectify this situation.
My opinions are based on what you have posted. I do not find anything you say to be so unusual. I am sure Dana could tell you some funny stories about rock dumping alongside roads to control erosion and run off. Nor do I find the actions of the Pres and VP to be off the wall. They would not be the first BOD members to step into a cow pie. Lord knows we have all done that.

Kirk,
I don't know why you would think a Board would not hire a Company to fix an erosion problem. If all is as presented, the Board hired the company, that seems to be clear. That is as far as we have got so far. Who instructed who to do what is a question. The facts seem to be the rocks were dumped in part on private property, Gails property. The Board wanted to meet with Gail to discuss this problem. Gail asked to be informed in writing what the Board wanted to talk about. The Board responded they did ask to met with Gail about this problem. Gail wants to be made whole, the erosion problem is not her problem as far as she knows. I am sure the Board didn't hire a company to create this problem, but there it is, who else are you going to blame. If Gail sues the Company she is also suing the association and anyone else the Board contracted with to do the job. There is also an issue of this Company (maybe) trespassing on Gail property and removing her property to do the job they were paid to do. All the Board should do is turn this over to their lawyer. Inform Gail they are doing everything they can do to address this issue and help her be made whole. The question about the correctness of the job should be determined by the contract the Board signed to get the work done. Do you think the Board did this without contract specifications and maybe EPA approval and were looking for a quick fix? Naw, the Board wouldn't do that.

Steve,
Remove the rock.........not Gail's problem. Remove the rock from her property........Gail's problem.

How much it costs is the Boards problem if they ordered the rock to be dumped there................not Gail's problem.

Getting through the fog and smokescreen................Gails problem.

Finding out all she can find out...........Gails problem.

Being made whole............Lawyers problem. It might be able to be done through association lawyer or she hire a private, but no doubt, her resolution for her problem should be spelled out and legal.

Then she can jump on Board and find out if this is how they do business day to day. So far the Board has not acted in good faith.
The last is my opinion and my problem is I can be way off base sometimes.

Oops, I guess I was misunderstood. I wasn't thinking that removing the rock or cost of removing it was at Gail's expense, but she would have to seek legal methods to make the HOA spend big bucks do it. They are not going to do it just because she wants them to. An attorney is going to have to try and persuade them or a judge force them. She can recoup the legal costs later.

On a side note, I almost think that Gail is a male and not a female in this case.

The boy's name Gail \gail\, also used as girl's name Gail, is a variant of Gale (Irish, Gaelic, Old English), and the meaning of Gail is "foreigner; cheerful, happy". See also Gael.

Gail, am I correct in my assumtion?

I'm still breathlessly waiting for pictures, so I'm withholding any further comment of need to hire attorney's, costs of removal of stone, etc. as we have very limited info to go on. One perons idea of a landslide is another's idea of ground cover. LOL

Dana

To all,

Gail was kind enough to email me 4 pictures of her situation. I will say that they were a great help in forming a more accurate opinion of the work done. I would like to say right up front that although the pictures were a great aid nothing beats viewing something in person as the "magnitude" of the work area gets lost in photos. I was recently in Myrtle Beach during the 25,000+ acre brush fire; while there I watched it on TV, then I flew over the scene in a helicopter. Seeing it first hand definitely conveyed to me an all different respect.

Having said that I informed Gail in detail as to my findings. In brief synopsis I feel that the repair to the erosion issue was done well. I feel that the rock is in place as it should be. The stark contrast of the white rock against the brownish woodsy background is very noticeable but I feel that the rock dust (from being blasted offsite) will wash with rain and the rock will take on a more blue look thus blending in with the surroundings over time.

I totally understand Gail's frustration in sitting at her breakfast table and looking across the wooded yard at the face of the slope and the rock formation. I don't feel that the rock slid down to the bottom as described but is laid out from top to bottom in a reasonable and satisfactory manner. I won't bother describing the entire background of the slope, road layouts and buried utilities but instead I'll just hope that Gail (female :-)) finds the answers she is hoping for through her board and contractor and that all parties are able to come to an amicable understanding. As a board member I know first hand that sometimes the best solution to a problem is not always the most popular.

Best of luck Gail.

Dana

Gail, as I feel you are an HOA whereas my experience is in Condo's, with all the outdoors being common property, I'll leave it to the more educated here to guide you in your quest. In no way, shape, or form did I mean to belittle your rights as a property owner and the fact that the material ended up on "your" property.

In looking at the pictures it did look as though erosion had extended onto your property, perhaps not. That's why I asked if you had seen the extent of the erosion before the repair job. That is one extremely difficult spot to now remove the rock from your property unless they have access to the base of the slope from further in on your property which was out of camera view.

Best of luck and please post the outcome as we'd all be interested to hear.

I'll now take a back seat and learn by reading the posts of others.

My best to you and John,

Dana

Robert, at the risk of putting words in Dana's mouth, I don't think he was referring to the logistics of the erosion control being the same or different with an HOA or a condo, but the private vs. common area rights themselves, since he only has experience with condo.

I think he also did indicate that it was difficult to see from the pictures the entire scope and did not get into great detail with is re: the entire geographic layout.

"I don't feel that the rock slid down to the bottom as described but is laid out from top to bottom in a reasonable and satisfactory manner. I won't bother describing the entire background of the slope, road layouts and buried utilities. . "

Well, to be clear, I think Gail not only insisted the rocks were on her property, but that they were there basically as a result of the erosion project being handled improperly or incorrectly. Not just that they were where they weren't supposed to be, but that they were there due to negligence.

Or at least that's the impression/feeling/perception I got from her posts. If I was wrong about that, then that's on me.

I was just saying that Dana's input indicates that the project appears (at least from the pictures) to have been handled up to a normal/typical standard of operation.

Now what he can't address, and he mentioned that, is the whole issue issue of the private property/easements, etc etc etc.

That is something that Gail will indeed have to pursue through the appropriate channels on-site.

So anyway, butting out now.

Also, for the record, we live in a flood plain. We have a ditch behind our house. We "own" the land up to the center line of the ditch. There is an "easement" of X feet (not sure how many right now) from the center of the ditch to either side of it (into my property and my neighbor's to the rear.

My property slopes down sharply about 20 feet before the ditch, so that all that area is steep incline (and I can't tell you what a b**** it is to maintain).

If there were to be reason for the city to repair any portion of the ditch, and they had to go beyond the X-foot easement then we would be S.O.L. in terms of saying yes or no or get the H**** out of here.

They do what they do, as much as they need to. We can expect that they repair any damage to our yard in the process, but if they determine that our entire slope is causing problems (erosion etc) and they do some sort of repair, I'm guessing we wouldn't have a lot to say about it.

I could be wrong, but if it is repairs like erosion, I just don't know where my "private" property rights end and the "public" interest (controlling erosion) begins.

I hope Gail can get it worked out in a fair and equitable manner!

Robert,

I hope that I can clarify a few things with this.... :-)

I am President of a "condo" in Ct. I have been an active CAI member and avid reader of condo magazines for 14 years. Never the less, my only experience with HOA's here in Ct. is limited and at that the ones in our local area give the board a lot of discretionary powers. I didn't really pay as much attention to the comments on this post as to Gail's property rights but I'm not sure they've been answered yet. (Sorry if they have and I missed it.) My experience in "condo's" is that owners don't own the property outside their units but that it is all common property and falls under the maintenance reponsiblities of the board. If Gail lived here she would not have much say as to her displeasure with the aestetics of the repair.

In brief, I myself don't know Gail's rights as far as stating the stone is on "her" property and she wants it removed. Hence my comment that I will sit on the side and let Donna, Michelle, you and others make the call.

I was more involved with this post as far as, "Was the work done appropriately?" I have seen many forum posts where once more evidence is obtained from the poster the answers to the intial post end up having to be adjusted. In my view this is one of those cases. Once I viewed the pictures I felt that the material was spread to the best ability of the contractor (from the pictures I had). Was the fiber material used underneath? I have no idea as the material would now be under the rock. Is the fabric use critical? As its been proven to help it is always used on jobs I've been involved with over the last few years.

I still don't know if Gail saw the erosion previous to the repair, if the utility wires were exposed by the erosion, and (by lack of pictures) if there is access to the base of the slope from the direction of her home. I know that from the pictures I saw it would take a specialized machine to now pull the rocks off her property. In my view there is no way the rock removal would be done around here for $200, if that was a number stated (as Robert referred). We're talking the side of a mountain and a ravine here. Not your typical geographic layout for of a condo on Myrtle Beach or Atlanta where access to a repair is relatively flat and easy.

I can only assume that many owners would just be appreciative that the repair was made. But, in this case Gail does not like the way the repair was made and wants the rock off "her" property. I will add that I feel (by evidence of the pictures) that the erosion stopped where the rock repair now ends, which happened to be 30' onto "her" property.

In the end, perhaps "once again" this comes down to lack of communication between the board and owner as to scope of work to repairs being made. Perhaps her board lacks the experience to inform owners, perhaps Gail is not a full time resident of this "moutain retreat" (as I asked the question via email but still don't know) and the erosion took place from a heavy rain, the board made an emergency repair, then Gail came home and saw only the end result???????????

Gail, in no way am I do I mean to offend you with my comments above so please take my words with an open heart. I can understand your frustration as it affects your home.

Donna and Michelle, I always love to read your posts as they are always educational yet hold that added dash of humor that is so needed in life. Robert, I learn from you also but with it having a more "dry wine" effect. LOL

I hope that I have explained myself a tad more thoroughly here.

My best to you all,

Dana

Sorry for the long post.

Dana,
I don't think I am going out on a limb when I post this reply.
The regulars that answer these postings swim together like the fishes in a big school. We twist and turn and move with some kind of force that keeps the school together. So, we welcome folks like you that can put their thoughts together in a way that the door is always open for discussion. No ONE of us is worth squat as we go our merry way through this site picking and choosing what we are going to respond to and what we don't. All have strong resolve about trying to post something that will help, not hinder. All will defend their convictions (to the death for some). All seems to work and anyone is welcome to join. I have no idea how this happens.
So, Gail's situation aside, and we may be able to even hear of some resolution and hopefully have helped a little, another problem crops up on this site daily. Around here, you blink you are out of sight on the discussion page at times. No doubt some passing through here think we are all full of crap, and at times each of us can be, it's the nature of the beast.
So, let's not get hung up on Gails resolution, she has to pick and choose what she wants to take away from here. I welcome your presence here, you can make reason, you are articulate and you remain cool and you have knowledge. We are all limited in our experiences but we have a ton of experience to draw on from the people posting here, maybe we can draw on some of yours.

Glass half full....if her property was also eroding, or soon to be because of the adjacent erosion....the HOA PAID for rocks to stop erosion on her property without billing her for the cost of the rocks. No one has mentioned for sure if the rocks are on her property...based on survey stakes marking such. Before anyone discusses removing rocks shouldn't it be established by Gail that they are on her property?