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JoyceS1
(Indiana)

Posts:107

08/16/2006 7:59 AM
I am going to be meeting with a homeowner in a few days who has been asked to serve on the HOA Board. One of the issues which I plan to discuss with him is the concept held by some in our community that all homeowners should be allowed to vote on all decisions. This topic has already been mentioned in a previous posting on this site. However, I want to come up with a list of what it would entail if we did not have a board of directors and homeowners had to make each and every decision. I've come up with a list, but would love to get some examples from the folks on this forum in case I missed some points. In order to do this, let's live in the fantasy world and pretend that EVERY decision has to be made by a majority of the homeowners. Could you do some brainstorming with me, please? Thanks!

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3725

08/16/2006 8:58 AM
Joyce, it is a fantasy which would never work. Have you ever tried to get a response from everyone much less get a consensus of a simple majority? It is even difficult to get a quorum of 20% for a meeting at which the most fundamental decisions are made. I do think some items could be considered for email voting with approval by a simple majority of those voting. But this will not replace the Board since they do many other things besides making decisions.

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412

08/16/2006 9:15 AM
Nothing would ever get accomplished and no one would be happy. The board of directors are elected to make the necessary decisions on behalf of the homeowners. Ever hear the saying of too many cooks in the kitchen or too many chiefs and not enough indians? Those who are truly interested in being involved in decision making will run for the board or be on a comittee. You will find that most homeowners do not want to be involved or don't have the time to be involved with these issues. On an additional note, I just spent 6 months trying to get the required 2/3 majority vote to amend our covenants...imagine if you had to have the entire community decide on what flowers to plant at the entrance each spring...they would never get planted.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/16/2006 10:36 AM
RogerB, Email voting? Wouldn't it only work if you have everyone's email address. My opinion is that snail mail is the only tried and true way to go. GeraldT1 NNJ

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/16/2006 4:03 PM
Joyce: We are a great example of this, before I came on board that is how things were done, by a majority of the homeowners present. Here is what always happened, since we were new development we would never get the same people at each meeting, so if something was tabled from one meeting to the next you would get a different set of people with different ideas. Nothing got done, nothing got approved, people got dissatisfied with our HOA because meetings were 2+ hours, nothing was accomplished and we talked stuff to death. When you allow everyone to vote it increases the opinions you have to listen to and increases the frustration.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/16/2006 5:36 PM
it can be done, however, you must have some ground rules: Decide what a quorum is. This many people must be present in order to present an item for vote. it should be a large percentage, otherwise, a small group of people will end up directing the process, which is exactly what you wish to prevent. So, 95% of the homeowners must be present, let's say. That way, a "true" majority will almost have to be present and voting before things are approved. make a homework rule: issues are presented in one meeting, and votes occur at another. Or, issues are presented ahead of time, and only a vote is done at the meeting. Meetings are for working the issue, or for voting, not both. make a "finality" rule: any issue voted upon cannot be recalled, overturned, revoted, or revoked for one year. this prevents the back and forth votes, where we vote to run sprinklers on wednesdays, then another group shows up next month and revotes to run them on thursdays. make sure people understand this, because this is crucial.. without this rule, NOTHING will ever be permanently done. Imagine hiring a landscaper, and basically telling them "Oh, BTW, next month, we may fire you. And the month after, hire you again. then fire you, hire you, then ask if you do pools. then fire you again." decide what a majority is (simple majority, plurality, etc.). Decide if proxy voting is allowed, and if so, how: proxies for each issue, permanent proxies, limited proxies, etc.. finally, make a back up plan, cause this one won't ever work. people will not do the research necessary in the time given to make an intelligent vote, and the HOA will crumble into gridlock and chaos.

JoyceS1
(Indiana)

Posts:107

08/16/2006 6:50 PM
BradP I had similar experiences to yours. When our community was just getting started, before the HOA officially was turned over, we had all-homeowner meetings that lasted 3-4 hours, and as you said often nothing was decided. There were times when no one wanted to make a decision, so the homeowner mantra was "whatever everyone else wants." Which ultimately ended up being decided by one person who spoke up or if no one spoke up, then the decision simply was not made. It is not my intent to implement this type of decision-making, but to come up with enough "horror stories" so to speak, in order to point out the impracticallity. I've come up with about 22 points on my own, but thought I could get some more ideas that maybe I hadn't experienced or that have not occurred to me. The one homeowner I am meeting with is new to the community and is influenced by those few who want the whole community to vote. I hope to get him on the right track by explaining what gridlock we would face with this type of governance. Our governing documents specifically provide for a Board of Directors and spell out its responsibilities. Trying to explain that to some people is an exercise in futility, however. That's when I thought I'd try a different approach using horror stories. You provided me with a few that hadn't occurred to me....so thank you for your input!

JosephW
(Michigan)

Posts:787

08/16/2006 9:16 PM
First, there would have to be monthly meetings, at which a quorum would have to assured. After all there are bill payments to be approved ad contractors won't like waiting another month. So, everyone is going to have to commit to showing up. At the meeting the minutes of the prior meeting will have to be read and approved, the financial report given and approved, and the payables list reviewed and approved. Unit owner delinquencies will have to be announced and the owners who are late can make their excuses to the audience. A vote on whether to fine, lien or even foreclose will have to be taken. Too bad Old business will have to be gone over, questions asked and answered and votes taken on any motions put on the floor to take some action to to close the item. New business could include members accusing other members of bylaw and rule violations, arguments over what's true or not, and periodic breaks in the meeting to separate the accuser and the accused. EMT's should be hired to attend the meeting to see to anyone that gets injured. The members can then vote on the action to take against the offending owner. You might consider appointing a sergeant-at-arms as an additional officer on the board. New business could also include things like a discussion about the vote at the last meeting to remove any restrictions on flags and signs. Now Mr.Johnson has put up a 30' flag pole with a 10'x18' flag that flaps all night long keeping the neighbors awake. Mr. Thomas can put a motion on the floor to require him to take it down. But then there's that local news team outside with their cameras, wanting to ask the owners why they're so unpatriotic. And someone wants to talk about the permanent "Garage Sale" sign that is in front of the Anderson's home. Mr. Johnson puts a motion on the floor to adopt a resolution in support of President Bush's foreign policy and the war in Iraq. Mrs. Thomas moves to condemn it instead, and the sergeant-at-arms moves to separate them. The meeting is now moving into its third hour and they haven't even started on the Architectural Control applications for this month. (Taken from posts on this board or from real applciations I've seen) - The William's family wants to use the far side of the common areas as a dirt bike track for their 3 kids, and the other children in the HOA; Mrs. Davis wants to fill in the common area behind her home to build a volleyball court (its wetlands); the Benson's have put a new piece of art in front of their home, a sculpture representing the mating ritual of an Amazon tribe, they want it approved after-the-fact; and on it goes. Mr William's shouts to Mrs. Davis that he'll vote for hers if she'll vote for his. Mrs. Benson wants in on the voting arrangement. They then quietly move among the owners, reminding them of affirmative votes they cast for their applications, and so, the association ends up with a dirt bike track, that seems to draw every kid with a motorbike from miles around at all hours of the day and night; a beautiful volleyball court, (ant the accompanying fine from the county); and a slightly obscene sculpture, that the news crew films on its way out to use during sweeps month. As each owner leaves the meeting they can be handed the announcement of the next meeting in order to meet the states requirement of 30-day notice for meetings of the members. Owners will be required to read the state and federal laws that pertain to association operations, as well as commit the CC&R's and rules to memory. Most will need to take a class so they can understand the financial report before they vote to approve it. A parliamentarian will probably have to hired to either teach everyone Robert's Rules or to be on hand to make pertinent rulings. The association's attorney will probably have to attend every meeting to make sure the owners don't make some crazy motion that would get the association in legal hot water.$$$$$$$$$$$$$ In between meetings , the board can duck every issue that comes up with a simple "We'll talk about it at the next meeting". If its an emergency, then the board can go door-to-door, in order to get a quorum. If they don't, well, what's a little flooding among neighbors. When the owners vote down the assessment increase to fund the reserves, and then vote down the special assessment when the repairs are needed, they can feel relieved that it wasn't their home (or common area in front of their home) that needed those repairs. And they can feel just a little bit sorry for those who did need them. If the place starts looking a little ratty around the edges, they can feel proud of the fact that they have the lowest assessment in the area, having not raised the assessment in 5 years. Besides, if the homes appreciated too fast, property taxes would go up. Then there's matters like insurance, contracts, approval of specifications, reviews of bids, due diligence on all of the vendors, making sure about their insurance, waivers of liens received before payments, inspections of work, etc., etc., etc. Of course, this is all in a day's work for a board member or manager, so the owner's should be able to handle it once a month. I went a little overboard, but just a little Joe

Joseph West Official HOATalk.com Sponsor Community Associations Network, LLC www.CommunityAssociations.net *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

JoyceS1
(Indiana)

Posts:107

08/17/2006 12:44 AM
JosephW THANK YOU! That is exactly the horror story scenerio I was wanting to receive. Your remarks touched upon some areas that are quite true unfortunately. Again, thank you! Very well said!!!

JanM
(Texas)

Posts:142

08/17/2006 7:20 AM
Joe, That was great! Thanx for my laugh for the day!

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/17/2006 7:27 AM
Joyce: relate an HOA to a city council or state government. You don't have all the people living in the city or the state making the rules. It is impractical because the dialogue would take forever and opinions and people change all the time. The system is set-up to elect people to represent you to make those decisions and it works at the national(sometimes!), state and local levels. An HOA is no different in my opinion.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/17/2006 11:54 AM
JoyceS1, In addition to the "horror story" examples of unit owner gridlock provided in your discussion topic, the homeowner you are meeting with would benefit from a simple explanation of the type of community he/she bought into, and the benefits of association living. Always good to accent the positive first, and never assume the owner knows the difference between non-association and association living. My tried and true explanation is that by purchase of a home in an association, the homeowner agrees to and is bound by the fact that others are entrusted with the fiduciary responsibility to act on behalf of all owners in accordance with state laws and by-laws. This type of governance allows owners to be freed from the detailed intricacies and responsibilities that they would otherwise have to manage themselves. GeraldT1 NNJ

BonnieE
(Illinois)

Posts:176

08/17/2006 1:04 PM
Good point from GeraldT1. Another point...does your state condo law even allow for this? If not, then this could be your closing remark.

JoyceS1
(Indiana)

Posts:107

08/17/2006 4:13 PM
Ah, Gerald, if only it were that simple. The eyes of the people here glaze over whenever something rationale and logical is presented. I'll keep hammering away with the points you made and maybe, someday, it'll register. Thanks....

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/18/2006 3:32 PM
Or, try this tactic: ask the folks wanting to have this democracy to name any country in the world that operates under a democracy, either currently or historically. Or, ask them to name any business plan in the world that operates under a democracy. When they can't, tell them this: There are no democracies as nations or businesses because thousands of years of experience have taught us that it doesn't work. What steps are we going to take different, that would assure you that somehow, this HOA as a democracy, would be any different from EVERY OTHER ORGANIZATION in the history of the world?

LynnC1
(Colorado)

Posts:2

08/18/2006 3:53 PM
Not once did Joe or any of the members attending his fantasy meeting refer to Robert's Rules of Parlimentary Procedure'. Surely there is a penalty required ;-D

JoyceS1
(Indiana)

Posts:107

08/18/2006 4:10 PM
I find responses to my inquiries and those of others on this site totally fascinating. There are serious as well as humorous contributions. I'm constantly learning something new, or chuckling at the angles sometimes portrayed lightly. I thrive on it all. It helps me to keep going in my new HOA responsibilities instead of being tempted to throw up my hands and say "forget it."

ClaudiaT
(New York)

Posts:4

08/22/2006 2:46 AM
I am a board president of a 7 member board and can't get anything done. The one time we went to the community for a vote on what to do with our cedar siding (which needs to be replaced) it was a major problem and held up the job another year or two. In the meantime we are experiencing many problems due to this siding.

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