AlexL1
(Florida)
Posts:295
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| 12/18/2008 4:38 PM |
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| It seems that at all of our meetings, the property manager from our Management company has to attend... Is it possible to have a meeting to decide on something without their attending? particularly if it pertains to THEM? |
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/18/2008 4:45 PM |
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| Most HOAs I know in FL have quarterly Board meetings that PMs attend at no charge but I don't think it's mandatory for PMs to be present. There are inexperienced boards that want the PMs to attend all of their meetings whether monthly or quarterly. Have you checked your contract with PMC ?? Perhaps he/she is just following a clause in your contract. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/18/2008 6:05 PM |
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Alex,
I have tried to find something definitive about this concern before. In my case a condo with a Property Manager (private).
The boards I have approached about it have tunnel vision. Last year we have a nasty (sort of) confrontation between a couple owners and the manager at an annual meeting. I contend the presence of the manager at an owners meeting should be limited to only those periods he gives a report (s). he/she should then be excused and business continued. There should absolutely be a forum that allows for any subject an owner feels to discuss. I am sure if you think about it you can see how a manager present would or could deter free exchange. I would also think the manager would be glad that this provision be provided as it would keep them from being involved in public displays. Another thought is an Owners Annual meeting does not necessiarily require the Board to preside. That means the Board should not set the agenda nor set the rules of conduct.
Now at a Board meeting we have a horse of a different color as then it is a meeting to conduct the Boards business. I doubt they would but the Board could also call for the manager to not be present at all issues. However, with the real fact of so many absentee owners being on boards I am sure they need the comfort of a manager present. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3622
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| 12/18/2008 11:14 PM |
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| Alex unless the contract with the PM has some language to the effect of the PM shall attend all meetings then of course you can hold one without them. However since Florida requires you to notice all meetings unless it is an emergency; do not expect it will be a secret from the PM. |
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Your board meeting is not held in the Situation Room of the White House. It's not life or death. Let people in, keep it positive, then go home and get a good night's sleep. If you hold off drinking until after the meeting, instead of before or during, you're probably doing OK. JosephW |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/19/2008 6:35 AM |
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I'm not sure how things are handled in your state, but IMHO -
Since the PM is really a contracted service of the HOA, then treat that person as a representative of a hired company giving a report and then leaving the meeting.
The compnay is not a "member" so doesn't fit in that category. That person has no right to be at the meeting unless invited.
Make sure your agenda is timed and the PM knows when he/she is to report. After the report and questions, thank him/her and that person can leave.
Perhaps a private discussion between the president and the PM can pave the way.
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/19/2008 6:48 AM |
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Alex,
I see nothing wrong with the PM attending all the meetings -- even the annual or other member meetings. The PM is usually the person who is doing the bulk of the work and knows exactly what is going on in the assn. I think it all boils down to whether or not the majority of the members like him/her and think he/she is doing a good job.
The board members of my assn are very well informed and do run the show, but it's the PM who does most of the work. She knows all about the delinquencies, CCR violations, contractors,etc., etc. She is the Pres. of the mgmt co we contract with and her husband is a CPA and does all the accounting. They both attend all the meetings but speak only when called upon. The Pres presides over the meeting and the Treas. gives the financial report. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/19/2008 6:58 AM |
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Susan,
Talk to me some more about your post. I really think this is how it should be done. We are a Condo with 65 units and around 250K/yr budget.
We have always had a individual that for all intents and pruposes declares themselves to be Property Managers. It is common to do this with our Individual Residential area under the Umbrella of our POA which fairly recently went from Board managed to P/M (private, serves as CEO in a sense) with extensive credentials. That POA is over 2000 units. Each unit pays around $800/yr, in addition there are small single family residential areas and several condos from maybe 30 units to 100 unit. We are condo and although not all are assessed alike we generate the figures above.
We publish a budget and I would estimate, and I mean estimate because we just can't seem to stop sticking costs for stuff under various line items that are it effects costs that rightly be charges to, for example: Management or close to it. I'm not sure. So my guestimate is something close to 50K and probably more than less.
I offer this as just background when considering if my condo should hold annual meeting without the manager, at least for a space of time.
Know anything written about this? Would a new thread be helpful?
You have not convinced me you are right about everything but I have no doubt of your passion and dedication and no one should ask for more than that.
So fill me in. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:4686
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| 12/19/2008 7:23 AM |
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Posted By AlexL1 on 12/18/2008 4:38 PM
It seems that at all of our meetings, the property manager from our Management company has to attend... Is it possible to have a meeting to decide on something without their attending? particularly if it pertains to THEM?
A prudent Board would ask the PM to attend all meetings. A knowledgeable PM's experience and guidance can be very valuable to the association. As far as having them attend it is up to the Board to either request their presence or not. When discussing matters about the PM the Board should ask them to leave the meeting.
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/19/2008 7:26 AM |
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There is no special status of the PM - they are not members and they are not board members or elected to a position. So, as Roger said, they are invited - as needed - to attend meetings.
The tail does not wag the dog.
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/19/2008 9:19 AM |
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Thank you Roger and SusanW!
I agree for what it's worth and especially coming from you two.
But, you have to admit, we are funny animals. Now if the Board wants to discus anything about the manager, our board would not be able to do it. I suppose they could go into ES and cover it under Personanel matters, but if a member wants to challenge the conduct of the manager, it has to be done in an open forum. And again in our case, the manager would be present.
I referred to the large number of absentee owner Board members. I am convinced this practice of routinely including the manager in all meetings, in our case he has been named an ex-officio member of all committees; this routine is due to the board allowing and directing the manager to not only be manager but CEO. The reason is he knows the most about what is going on. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/19/2008 10:07 AM |
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This person - who has the day to day tasks of the HOA to implement - DOES have a lot of info. And the board can ask for info from that person.
BUT!! The CEO or manager does NOT Govern!
And that's what the board is supposed to do.
Sounds like your board is too involved with the day to day and not enough in the overall governing of the HOA. |
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/19/2008 2:04 PM |
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| Alex, would you like to follow up on your original post ??? |
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AlexL1
(Florida)
Posts:295
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| 12/20/2008 6:17 AM |
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SusannaM suggested to follow up on my original question..... I almost forgot what it was.
Some suggestions included the preminition that the community manager was all-knowledgeable but this has never been the case here that I know of. Their knowledge is minimal.
I want to have a meeting which concerns the management company and in such (or as such), do not want the management company there. Thus, does this constitute a REAL HOA Board meeting? Will minutes have to be taken as in any regular meeting? No, there is nothing in the contract that I can see about the management company having to be there or (MUST) be there. |
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BruceF1
(Connecticut)
Posts:1510
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| 12/20/2008 8:40 AM |
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Posted By AlexL1 on 12/20/2008 6:17 AM
SusannaM suggested to follow up on my original question..... I almost forgot what it was.
Some suggestions included the preminition that the community manager was all-knowledgeable but this has never been the case here that I know of. Their knowledge is minimal.
I want to have a meeting which concerns the management company and in such (or as such), do not want the management company there. Thus, does this constitute a REAL HOA Board meeting? Will minutes have to be taken as in any regular meeting? No, there is nothing in the contract that I can see about the management company having to be there or (MUST) be there.
Of course it's a real board meeting. Yes, minutes have to be taken. Answer these questions:
Is the PM a board member as defined in your bylaws?
Is the PM counted towards meeting the quorum?
Is the PM entitled to make motions?
Is the PM entitled to vote?
The answer to all of these questions should be in your bylaws and should be no. The PM does not have to be there for it to be a "real" board meeting. A "real" board meeting is defined in your bylaws. If the meeting concerns the management company, the PM does not have to be there unless the board invites him or her. Go ahead and have your meeting.
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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:967
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| 12/20/2008 10:00 AM |
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| I agree with what Bruce says above. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/20/2008 10:31 AM |
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I, too, agree with Bruce.
If you have an issue with the PM and want to discuss it with the BOD, by all means have a meeting called w/o the PM being present and get all your frustrations out. The PM doesn't run the show, the BOD does. The fact that he/she is present at all meetings is probably because the board feels he/she has valuable info and insight that should be available to them at the meetings. |
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GeraldT4
Posts:1022
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| 12/20/2008 11:28 AM |
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AlexL1,
RogerB's post says it all. The rest, while an amusing read and informative, is not particularly germane to your question about a Property Mgr. ATTENDING a meeting. |
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/20/2008 11:34 AM |
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MaryA,
I wonder how deep your conviction is that the reason the Manager is at all meeting is the board has considered the fact and decided their presence is necessary because they have valuable insight. You say it is probable, my impression is: It has always been this way and no one opbjected and we as a board never gave it a thought. Certainly, I have never heard it announced or written the Board invites or has no objection if a request is made to excuse the Manager or PM. from the meeting.
I have brought this up to a few boards and their reaction is immediately defensive. Without thought they seem to jump at defending the presence of the manager. How many here have considered this factor, and how many have attended BOD meetings with no non-member management people there.
I never have. In fact on reflection I have never even heard of it happening. I would also say with some accuracy there was never a BOD or annual meeting that I attended that I didn't know of some dissatisfaction about the PM. And when that issue is broached at a meeting is can go from unpleasent to downright nasty.
I also recall a case in Florida a year or so ago when the Manager was banned from a Homeowners meeting in an association Club House and the manager called the cops and directed them to clear the door so he could enter the room and attend the meeting. No bull this happened and in fact was videotaped and made the papers and TV. I don't really know how it was resolved and it really don't matter but it highlights my spiel. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/20/2008 1:38 PM |
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Robert,
I think it may be written into a lot of contracts that the mgr will attend all meetings of the assn, or that they are available to attend. I agree, this is the procedure in many assn's simply because "it's always been done this way." And, I'm sure it's the procedure in many assn's because the board doesn't know anything and they rely on the mgr for everything. However, I like to think it's as I originally surmised -- the board feels the mgr has valuable info and insight and feel their presence is a good thing. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/21/2008 6:13 AM |
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Someone corrected me when I suggested that the Board go into Exectuvie Session to discuss disciplinary or contracts. Apparently in FL, the Board must have an attorney present (was that right?) for ES. That's restricting the board, IMHO.
ANYWAY . . . There should ALWAYS be an evaluation of staff done by your board, with the "staff" not in attendance. Somehow you've got to make this happen.
I can't imagine a PM having a discussion stanglehold on the board, but it sounds like this is what is happening.
"Uninvite", if you can.
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BruceF1
(Connecticut)
Posts:1510
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| 12/21/2008 6:36 AM |
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Mary,
In cases where it might be written into the management contract that the property manger will attend all meetings, is that intended as a requirement levied upon the property manager or upon the board? If it is a requirement levied only upon the property manager, the board can relieve the property manager from attending a board meeting at any time. |
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MaryA1
Posts:0
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| 12/21/2008 8:49 AM |
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Posted By BruceF1 on 12/21/2008 6:36 AM
Mary,
In cases where it might be written into the management contract that the property manger will attend all meetings, is that intended as a requirement levied upon the property manager or upon the board? If it is a requirement levied only upon the property manager, the board can relieve the property manager from attending a board meeting at any time.
Bruce,
Because it seems to be the norm that PM's attend all meetings, my feeling is that it might be addressed in the contract. I would say the contract might say the PM will attend all meetings, or be available to attend all meetings. I'm sure if the board doesn't want their presence they can, as you say, relieve them of that duty. If it's written in the contract, which the board has agreed to, I'm not sure that it's included as a requirement of either, just that it's something the management co has felt necessary to include in the contract. Both parties to the contract must adhere to the terms. I imagine some contracts might state there is a fee to be paid if the PM attends a meeting. There are a whole host of scenarios that could apply.
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/21/2008 10:25 AM |
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Posted By SusanW1 on 12/21/2008 6:13 AM
Someone corrected me when I suggested that the Board go into Exectuvie Session to discuss disciplinary or contracts. Apparently in FL, the Board must have an attorney present (was that right?) for ES. That's restricting the board, IMHO.
ANYWAY . . . There should ALWAYS be an evaluation of staff done by your board, with the "staff" not in attendance. Somehow you've got to make this happen.
I can't imagine a PM having a discussion stanglehold on the board, but it sounds like this is what is happening.
"Uninvite", if you can.
SusanW, you just don't get it, do you ?? In FL you can't have an HOA/Board meeting, which in itself by mandate must be open to all homeowners, and in the middle of it, call for a ES and go to a private room with the attorney. There will be a mutiny. I doubt a FL attorney would even consider doing such thing. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/21/2008 10:34 AM |
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Please state WHAT the criteria is for Florida boards to go into ES.
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RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
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| 12/21/2008 11:44 AM |
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Susan,
I will defer to the ones with better recall than I.
I will say that the criteria for doing so is not near as important as what the Board does when in ES. I understand that if a decision is reached it must be reported when the general meeting is resumed. Also the matters presented as the cause of the ES must be specific and does not result in some general discussion. Also the reason for ES and any decisions and the vote (some say) has to become part of the minutes.
Of course where you live it can be abused and is abused daily. Some Boards I am sure stick to the straight and narrow, but honestly folks, and it is no secret, there are Boards operating in large numbers through-out our associations that don't have a clue what they are to do, will follow anything that has been done in the past and could care less if the rules are broken a little or a lot. We have been through this ES business locally, our umbrella POA does abide by the rules, our condo not generally. If questions are raised there are all kinds of explanations and you move on to the nex ES. |
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/21/2008 12:32 PM |
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Posted By SusanW1 on 12/21/2008 10:34 AM
Please state WHAT the criteria is for Florida boards to go into ES.
If you insist, then do your own "homework" online. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:3622
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| 12/21/2008 1:14 PM |
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Posted By SusanW1 on 12/21/2008 10:34 AM
Please state WHAT the criteria is for Florida boards to go into ES.
Susan I believe the info you were looking for is in 720.303 (2)
(2) BOARD MEETINGS.--
(a) A meeting of the board of directors of an association occurs whenever a quorum of the board gathers to conduct association business. All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege. The provisions of this subsection shall also apply to the meetings of any committee or other similar body when a final decision will be made regarding the expenditure of association funds and to meetings of any body vested with the power to approve or disapprove architectural decisions with respect to a specific parcel of residential property owned by a member of the community.
(b) Members have the right to attend all meetings of the board and to speak on any matter placed on the agenda by petition of the voting interests for at least 3 minutes. The association may adopt written reasonable rules expanding the right of members to speak and governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member statements, which rules must be consistent with this paragraph and may include a sign-up sheet for members wishing to speak. Notwithstanding any other law, the requirement that board meetings and committee meetings be open to the members is inapplicable to meetings between the board or a committee and the association's attorney, with respect to meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters.
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Your board meeting is not held in the Situation Room of the White House. It's not life or death. Let people in, keep it positive, then go home and get a good night's sleep. If you hold off drinking until after the meeting, instead of before or during, you're probably doing OK. JosephW |
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/21/2008 2:34 PM |
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| Glen, where do you see any mention of "Executive Session" that SusanW mentions all the time ??? |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
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| 12/21/2008 3:38 PM |
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Susanna - what does this mean:
"Notwithstanding any other law, the requirement that board meetings and committee meetings be open to the members is inapplicable to meetings between the board or a committee and the association's attorney, with respect to meetings of the board held for the purpose of discussing personnel matters."
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SusannaM
(Florida)
Posts:366
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| 12/21/2008 4:06 PM |
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| Susanw, first of, you have never lived, owned property or belonged to any HOA in FL. In FL, nobody calls a private meeting of board members with the HOA association, an "executive session." |
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