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NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/02/2006 9:41 AM
I have used HOATalk many times outlining the problems our HOA is having, ranging from "in house" attorney to "ombudsman" to an expensive Mgmt co. I have received some very good advise. Since it is not an option for me at this time to start a revolution I have another idea which I would appreciate some feedback on. At the general meeting last night I found out they are planning on raising the dues (no surprise) Since most of our homeowners don't realize we are paying a "in house" attorney, and "ombudsman" along with an epensive Mgmt co. Most owners never come to the meetings. Would it be possible for me to send out a mailer to all our homeowners (575 of them) outlining these costs and the impact they have on our budget. Giving them the option to vote on continuing these services. I could include a self addressed "stamped" envelope to be returned to a P.O. box. If I received a favorable response of 51% I would then take this information to the board and ask them to consider the WILL of the homeowners. Would this be legal, and would the board have to listen to us? NancyM2

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:821

08/02/2006 9:57 AM
NancyM2. Being a HO of an HOA neighborhood, I would appreciate knowing what my annual assessments go toward. I believe until the community has the understanding of what is involved in successfully operating a HOA community. I’m sure many will be against raising the dues. If raising the dues will help your community then you should make every effort to educate the other HOs. I sure you will receive some really good advice from many of the members of this board. Good luck Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/02/2006 10:58 AM
NancyM2, Would it be possible for you to send out a mailer, yes. Would it be legal, yes as long as your information is 100% accurate, unbiased, and therefore non-dematory. If you take the action, realize it will be inflammatory. I am an advocate of an HOA having an MC, attorney, and independent mediator regarding Alternative Dispute Resolutions. I am a champion of owners that band together for a united cause, as long as it is not mean spirited, and factual. If cost is prohibitive, or more importanly the cost of these services exceeds the threshold the board is allowed to budget for (as stipulted in by-laws or state statutes), then and only then should the vote go to the people. The Board should be the party to seek owner vote and remind owners the power is theirs as governed by the provisions of your by-laws. The owners either have the option of voting on services, or not. If they have the option all you need do is notify the board of the by-law or state statute that provides the option via certified mail return receipt requested. If they do not have the option then I recommend you get a petition calling for a duly called special meeting to amend your by-laws providing dollar thresholds for board contracting and budgeting. Raising maintenance dues is a very serious matter, it effects your bottom line. But attorneys, MC's, and mediators are serious and in my opinion necessary components of HOA's as well. Best of succcess!! GeraldT1 NNJ

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/02/2006 12:02 PM
Nancy: I have given my opinion on this several times and you know I am not in favor of having your high priced attorney or ombudsman. If they insist on keeping them do you think they could hire me as well, I would like to do nothing for a lot of money. You would be fine in sending out what you want to send out, as Gerald said as long as it is 100% accurate. Let the homeowners know they are paying for these people and let them decide if they feel it is necessary or not. Out of curiousity why are they wanting to increase dues? Be prepared for a windstorm from the board when they find out what you are doing, dictators don't like people who threaten their power and authority. Best of luck.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/02/2006 1:34 PM
BradP, Who wouldn't want to paid money for doing nothing? But that has nothing to do with the need for a qualified and hardworking MC and mediator (ombudsman). As for mediator, the requirement for it depends on the state, and by-laws, etc. In NJ, ombudsman oversight of hoa's got shot down because it would increase dues of many senior citizens and increase the powers of the state without the budget to do so. Self-management often requires a vote of 2/3rd's majority of the community governed in by-laws. High priced representatives can be a reflection of a lack of due diligence, or other more sinister motives. What's wrong with letting the homeowners (who may be apathetic) find out for themselves that they may be getting bilked. An increase in dues is when the sleeping giants usually take notice. If Nancy holds off to hear the rumblings and there are none, her petition would have fallen on deaf ears anyway. And she will incur a bad rap for being the voice of reason or "town crier". GeraldT1 NNJ

NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/02/2006 4:08 PM
Dear Gerald First I would not send out anything that wasn't 100% accurate. That doesn't mean they wouldn't go after me. after all I am threatening their plusy jobs. I know that. (that is why I increased my umbrella today) I'm not kidding. Secondly; I agree that well managed HOA's need a confident MC as well as a mediator/ombudsman occasionally. Many Mgmt co's offer this as part of their service. (at least the ombudsman part) I forgot to mentionthat at the meeting last evening we were told that we have entered into "real" (not our "in house" ombudsman) mediation with three seperate homeowners. with possible law suits pending againt all three. For failure to trim trees (we are a ocean view community) ~ So much for our overpaid mediator/ombudsman/homeowner (friend of the board) saving us monies by solving problems. Thirdly; I have already been threatened by a law-suit from our VP/pres of the board last November. Apparently he didn't like my objecting to the new law suit we just had served on us. I felt he/BOD was negligent in going outside our boundaries to trim/cut trees that didn't belong to us. which did caused a law suit against our HOA. I believe his threatening letter says "defamation of character" nothing ever came of it. So you can see I am NOT faint of heart. You can be sure before I send out anything I would have an attorney look it over. I am deffinatly not on theeir Christmas card list. And finally; I really appriacate all your sound ~ well thought out advise. I depend on you guys. You have given me the strength to proceed to do the right thing for our homeowners. Nanc

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/02/2006 4:40 PM
Hi Nancy, I figured there was more the story, you are one gutsy lady!! Sorry to hear the mediation process was not effective. Curious, do your HOA docs provide the BOD the power to maintain something if owners are provided notice and they don't comply? My only concern was for you, do the right thing for you, be wary of laying yourself on the tracks for owners that may or may not be apathetic. It may appear to your board that there is collective apathy, therefore supposed apathy is the consensus by which the board may rule. Perhaps I didn't clarify, I apologize, my advise was to test the waters, before you broadcast your feelings and throw good money after bad. Perhaps you've got a pulse on how a block of owners may respond. Certainly the raised dues will be a sign that tests the waters. Best of success and full steam ahead!! GeraldT1 NNJ

NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/02/2006 6:33 PM
Dear Brad Please refer to a post I sent to Gerald, you guys are great. The only reason for the increase in dues is the expensive services I'm objecting to. After a assessment a few years ago 1,500.00 each owner to pay for legal costs from the "class suit" we had enough monies left over to float these expensive services for a while.(only thing I can figure) But nothing lasts forever. In order to continue with this "pork" looks like we will have to raise the dues. This all came up when I asked the board last evening about the decline in the "total operating cash" ~ a decline of $696,531.01 over the past two years. ~GET THIS~ the VP/Pres said "I don't know" since the treasurer is absent this evening. ~~~ I had to remind them I was aware of some 377K that went for an expensive slope fix lately, but where did the rest of it go?? they replied that they would have to let me know after checking into it. My next question was ~ Are we looking at a possible assessment, or raise in dues in the near future?? he came back with "no assessment" but the dues would have to be increased come this next budget.(didn't say by how much) that's when the Mgmt co said that we were spending more than we were taking in.(no surprise) After the meeting I went up to the Pres, and said that we needed to tighten the belt buckle and get rid of the "pork" so we wouldn't have to raise the dues. He knew what I was talking about, I have made it very clear how I feel lately ~ He said "O, Nancy" things are running so smoothly we are a model HOA, why change things. (you can't fight stupidity)So I just shook my head and went home. Hope that answers your questions Nancy Brad; I would hire you anytime, we volunteers are always worth what they pay us. P.S. to all HOATalk posters, and board members ~ where were you guys when I was on the board. can I possibly transplant some/any of you to our HOA ~ we need voices of reason out here.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

08/02/2006 8:28 PM
Is it legal? Yup, a little thing called the first amendment gives you that right. And now, i will differ from the others (ah, it's fun): it does NOT need to be 100% accurate or factual. Should you be? Yes, you probably should be, because you weaken your case by being wrong. However, there are no real laws that require a mailing or informative brochure to be 100% factual: if there were, we could arrest every politician, merchant, etc. who ever sent one. Feel free to be 98% factual, use the points you need to make, give it a bit of a spin, tweak or bias it a bit if you desire. Nothing illegal with that. You will, however, have to live with your decisions. And i will agree with the rest of everyone here and remind you, the truth is an absolute defense.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/03/2006 6:30 AM
Gerald: I would agree with you that a good MC should be something that every HOA should do if they had a money. I was referring to Nancy's case where an in house Ombudsman and attorney were making close to or over $100,000 each. To me that is fat that needs to be trimmed. I am not familiar with MC's that much but I would assume they would over an Ombudsman service but I don't know. Obviously as an outsider I don't know what all is going on but that is where I would start to avoid raising dues. Nancy, if they are already threatening you then go ahead and expose them for what they are. Any good or decent Board would have no problem with what you are doing. If someone in our neighborhood has an idea on saving money I am open and willing to listen.

NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/03/2006 8:02 AM
Gerald, Brad, and posters Crunching the numbers ~ presently we are paying 362K annually for these expensive services. Realistically we will have to pay something for a confident mgmt co, possible mediation and occasionally attorney's fees. Worst case scenario ~ My best guess is 70/80 annually for a mgmt co. 5K annually for mediation. 15K annually for attorney's costs. (total 100K annually) making a difference of 262K ~ divide that by 575 owners ~ $455.65 each owner annually ~ divide that by 12 months $37.97 per month each owner can save. Almost $40.00 a month. That is significant. Roger, I have been thinking about what you posted (throwing myself on the tracks) for what ~~? Who appointed me mother Theresa of our community?? A question I often ask myself. I have given this much thought, and I would not make my move until the announcement came out about the increase. Thanks for all your support. Nanc P.S. Gerald, I am looking into the threashold issue (thanks)

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/03/2006 6:37 PM
BradP, Agree with you that making close to or over $100,000 each is fat, or pork belly that should go bottoms up!!! Ridiculous, outrageous, and sad. But sharks, and wolves for that matter, travel in packs. GeraldT1 NNJ

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/03/2006 6:47 PM
NancyM2, $40.00 or $23.47 if the total was 200K would be significant to many owners. Your association is more than double mine, for our management, we pay approx. half of your worst case scenario. However, I am in the Tri-state area NNJ so that may factor into cost savings. By saying, "throwing yourself on the tracks", I meant going out on a limb without some sort of gage on the outcome, feedback, etc. Someone has to take a step, so I encourage you to proceed with the "umbrella" insurance at the ready!! As I've said, you are one gutsy lady and I believe you should follow your heart and financial savvy. Best of success!! GeraldT1

NancyM2
(California)

Posts:150

08/03/2006 9:24 PM
Gerald; where did you come up with the $23.47 ~~ did I crunch the numbers wrong ? I thought it would be more like $40.00 a month. Thanks for all your support (I really mean that) Nanc

GeraldT1

Posts:0

08/04/2006 4:13 AM
Nanc, Instead of the difference being 262K, I doubled your projected expenses (attorney, MC, etc.) and divided 162K difference by 575 by 12 = $23.47. Your expenses could be somewhere in between $23.47 or $40.00 a month. $23.47 a month to so some, is an increase they would rather do without. I agree with BradP, and that there is fat that needs to be trimmed. GeraldT1 NNJ

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