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HalT
(Florida)

Posts:9

11/20/2008 7:18 PM
Anybody know the proper procedure for proxy votes being used at an annual board election? I live in FLorida.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/20/2008 11:02 PM
HalT, General answer: Hopefully you documents will address Proxies and spell out what is acceptable.. If they don't: Use the search top right of this page. There is a lot of stuff on file here. Another source is Robert's Rules of order, but most likely you will have specific local quidelines. In any event: If you are questionimg your association procedures, past and present, be aware once the action is done, you will find it hard to undo. If fraud is concerned, you can file suit on your own, but I suspect it would not be worth it. Now, if procedures are just sloppy or have a heavy Board hand or are not counted correctly or any another sloppy treatment, spend the next year getting support to change your Proxy procedures to acceptable standards.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:5202

11/21/2008 5:25 AM
There are many steps that can be taken before "filing suit" about the validity of an election and/or motion. Motions can be recinded; elections declared null and void and re-done.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/21/2008 5:56 AM
Hal, Here is the Statute that you follow along with your governing documents (bylaws). It is 720:306 (8) 8) PROXY VOTING.--The members have the right, unless otherwise provided in this subsection or in the governing documents, to vote in person or by proxy. To be valid, a proxy must be dated, must state the date, time, and place of the meeting for which it was given, and must be signed by the authorized person who executed the proxy. A proxy is effective only for the specific meeting for which it was originally given, as the meeting may lawfully be adjourned and reconvened from time to time, and automatically expires 90 days after the date of the meeting for which it was originally given. A proxy is revocable at any time at the pleasure of the person who executes it. If the proxy form expressly so provides, any proxy holder may appoint, in writing, a substitute to act in his or her place.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/21/2008 6:18 AM
SusanW1, When would you say these measures (steps)should be taken when an association doesn't follow to the letter a set of guidelines? My experience: Not worth the trouble. Clear the air through posting on web site, or making a motion at Board meetings and get a commitment from Board all will be set right at next annual meeting. If someone goes to all the manipulations needed to sway an election with proxies, I doubt you can get it all straightened out in a year. Best to get it out in open, have the Board correct it, and move on. I am sure there are exceptions to all this I propose, valid ones, and a few that would over ride my suggestions, but, all these would surely indicate there is a serious problem and proxies are only part of the whole picture.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:1510

11/21/2008 7:14 AM
Posted By HalT on 11/20/2008 7:18 PM Anybody know the proper procedure for proxy votes being used at an annual board election? I live in FLorida. Hal, From the responses I read, I'm not sure your question is being answered. You didn't indicate that there was an issue, only an inquiry as to how proxy votes are handled. I don't know what the specifics are for Florida, or even if they are allowed for HOAs in Florida. And, of course, the specifics should be in your documents. But, I can explain proxy voting in general, if that helps. People sometimes get confused between proxy voting and absentee voting. They are not the same thing. Either is a way to vote if you can't be present in person, but absentee voting uses an absentee ballot, with the specific question or questions (or election) to be voted on placed on the ballot that only the individual entitled to vote can complete and return to be counted. Absentee voting cannot be used if the question to be decided or if all the candidates to be elected are not known prior to the meeting at which the voting is to take place. The reason is obvious; there is no way to place such information on the absentee ballot since it is unknown. Proxy voting is a limited power of attorney. It is a document that is signed by the person who is entitled to vote authorizing another person (the proxy) to attend the meeting and vote as the individual's representative. Because candidates to be elected often can be nominated from the floor (and therefore not known beforehand, so their names cannot appear on an absentee ballot), proxy voting is often used, when allowed, as a method of electing directors to a board. The proxy, who is present, then has knowledge of the full slate of candidates and can make a choice on behalf of the individual who is entitled to vote but is unable to be present. A proxy may be for a prescribed period of time (a year, 3 months, a month, whatever), or it may be for only a specific occasion. That is usually specified in the document authorizing the proxy. Also, usually a proxy can be revoked by the individual entitled to vote. There are a couple of problems with proxy votes, which is why some people don't like them. Unless the individual who is entitled to vote provides specific, written instructions to the proxy on exactly how to vote or on whom to vote for, the proxy may vote in any way he or she chooses. Hopefully, it will be in the interest of the person entitled to vote or close to how he or she would have voted, but it doesn't have to be. It's difficult to provide specific instructions when there are nominations from the floor since you don't know beforehand who the candidates will be. Perhaps you could provide instructions like, "vote for the the following individuals in this priority", or something like "in any case, you may not vote for the following individuals." It's not perfect, but it's better than no instructions at all. Proxies can be, and sometimes are, abused. Usually, there is no limit to the number of proxies a person can hold. So, suppose another homeowner solicits five unspecified proxys from other homeowners that are not going to attend a meeting for an election. This individual now has six votes (five proxies plus his or her own vote) that can be voted in any way he or she chooses. For this reason, many people consider proxy voting to be unfair. Proxy voting has its good points and its bad points. Each person has his or her own view on whether the good outweighs the bad or the bad outweighs the good.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/21/2008 7:23 AM
Hal, Just an addition to my post of the Statue rule on proxy voting. Your governing documents MAY and I stress--MAY not allow the use of Proxy voting but if they do, then the Statute applies as to how they are to be used. Florida only allows the use of "Limited" proxies, which means that they can only be used for the stated purpose on the proxy and within the timeframe outlined in the Statute..

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/21/2008 7:41 AM
Bruce, I'd have to agree that there are pro and cons to proxy voting, and each HOA faces its own scenario. For instance, we are having board elections in less than 3 weeks. I'm also in FL like the OP. Our proxy encourages voters to attend and alos gives instructions to mail or fax their proxy to the property managemnet co. if they don't plan or can't attend. We don't have a ballot per se. Board members are not seeking re-election. I took care of that (don't ask me particulars about this.) Our bylaws do not address annual meetings of the HOA at all since they date back to 1994 when developer had full control. Previous boards have done nothing to amend or revise our bylaws. But going back to our Proxy, I don't like the idea of giving the property manager or property management company unlimited number of votes through proxies. But again, there is nothing we can do to change that at this time. All I can do is try to collect as many proxies from neighbors, attend the annual meeting, and hope for the best. Your thoughts.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

11/21/2008 7:50 AM
Posted By SusannaM on 11/21/2008 7:41 AM Bruce, I'd have to agree that there are pro and cons to proxy voting, and each HOA faces its own scenario. For instance, we are having board elections in less than 3 weeks. I'm also in FL like the OP. Our proxy encourages voters to attend and alos gives instructions to mail or fax their proxy to the property managemnet co. if they don't plan or can't attend. We don't have a ballot per se. Board members are not seeking re-election. I took care of that (don't ask me particulars about this.) Our bylaws do not address annual meetings of the HOA at all since they date back to 1994 when developer had full control. Previous boards have done nothing to amend or revise our bylaws. But going back to our Proxy, I don't like the idea of giving the property manager or property management company unlimited number of votes through proxies. But again, there is nothing we can do to change that at this time. All I can do is try to collect as many proxies from neighbors, attend the annual meeting, and hope for the best. Your thoughts. From Donna's post: "If the proxy form expressly so provides, any proxy holder may appoint, in writing, a substitute to act in his or her place. " I'm curious as to what part of the proxy designates the proxy to be EXECUTED by the PM company? If I send in a proxy, I will most likely send it in designating a person whose judgment I respect to vote in my stead. I doubt that would be the PM. Most likely I would locate a neighbor who I feel has similar mindset and worldview to me.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:1510

11/21/2008 8:00 AM
Susanna, In general, anyone may be designated as a proxy. I find it hard to believe that there may be something in Florida law or in your governing docs that require a proxy to be a specific someone. Therefore, I don't think it would be a requirement to designate the property manager as the proxy. I don't see anything wrong with that, since anyone can be a proxy, and it's a matter best left up to the individual person entitled to vote. It's probably suggested more as a matter of convenience than anything else, and under the assumption that the property manager would likely be a "neutral" party and would vote wisely. Given that a proxy can be anyone, I would be more inclined to designate someone I trust such as a close relative or friend as a proxy. The proxy shouldn't necessarily have to be someone else that lives in the community. If that is a requirement, then I would question its legality. I might also be inclined to designate how the proxy is to vote, such as in the examples I gave in my previous post. It's not perfect, but it's more likely that the vote would be cast similar to how I would have voted.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:1510

11/21/2008 8:03 AM
Or, it may be as Michele said. The PM is merely collecting the proxies, not actually casting the votes. Usually, that's the secretary's responsibility, but that function is ofen delegated to a property manager.

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/21/2008 8:17 AM
Yes, I agree, it's a matter of convenience. And, yes there is provision for a substitute who most likely will be the current Secretary.

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/21/2008 8:24 AM
Oh, and forgot to add that yes, we must write the name of the person we appoint as proxy.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/21/2008 8:33 AM
Bruce and Michelle, I have seen on several ballots, especially when there is an amendment, that the ballot offers the Secretary of the association to be named the proxy designee. This works well where the association has a hard time acquiring a quorum, the Secretary then can cast all of the proxies as she sees fit if the ballot is worded that way. Some ballots allow the owner of the Proxy to check their vote but it is cast by the designee. This is why the use of proxies is sometimes not a clear cut system.

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/21/2008 8:41 AM
HalT, were all these posts helpful to you ????

EdieL
(Virginia)

Posts:86

11/21/2008 1:45 PM
DonnaS, I agree with you. BUT we just had a special meeting where proxy cards for casting a vote was sent out with the HOA Secretary as the limited power of attorney. She then used the proxies to also establish a quroum for the meeting. A proxy needs to state the specific purpose given, which ours did. Misuse of that proxy for any other use, I believe is a crime. Edie

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/21/2008 2:33 PM
Edie, I do not know Virginia HOA laws but I wonder how the Secretary got Limited Power of Attorney? Does Virginia Law not reccognize a Limited Proxy which would give her power to vote from designees?

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/21/2008 2:46 PM
And here we have the result of Murphy's Law in regard to Proxies. If anything can go wrong..............it will.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:1510

11/21/2008 4:48 PM
Posted By EdieL on 11/21/2008 1:45 PM DonnaS, I agree with you. BUT we just had a special meeting where proxy cards for casting a vote was sent out with the HOA Secretary as the limited power of attorney. She then used the proxies to also establish a quroum for the meeting. A proxy needs to state the specific purpose given, which ours did. Misuse of that proxy for any other use, I believe is a crime. Edie Read your declaration (CCRs) and bylaws. Check the quorum requirement. Many documents define a quorum as "XX% of the members entitled to vote in person or by proxy" or something similar. If your docs contain similar wording, proxies may be used to help establish a quorum.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/21/2008 5:17 PM
A comment, Seems to again point out that all procedural processes should be worked out before the actual voting. In this case, it is a special meeting, which must have provided an advance notice to all members. That is the time to clarify how the voting will be done. If not provided with the notice of meeting, I would contact the Board and insist procedures for voting be included.

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/21/2008 5:31 PM
RobertR, the following is the 1st paragraph of Proxy I've received. There are no instructions as to the vote procedure itself or specifics about a Quorum. " That the undersigned owner of ____________ (address) of XXXXXXXX constitutes and appoints _______________ (name) or the Secretary of the Association as the true agent and proxy of the undersigned, with full powers of substitution, for and in the name of the undersigned, to attend the Annual Meeting of XXXXXXXXXXXXX to be held XXXXXXXXXXX, and any adjournment of the meeting, for the purpose of acting on all matters and in all things that come before that meeting or meetings and any and all adjournment, and to represent the undersigned with all powers that the undersigned would possess if personally present." Your comments.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/21/2008 10:59 PM
Susanna, I would take strong exception to any mention of a specific person or office that could be assigned the vote. I know it is done all the time but having observed the apathy of owners in associations I think this little trick is just adding to the problem. Managing an association is a two way street and a 52 week/year job. Communications is not easy and the tendency to lead the members in specific directions should be avoided. I am convinced that the BOD do know more about what needs to be done and are more knowledagable than the single owner. However, since that is not a constant fact, the only fair recourse is communication and education. Can this be done? I'm not sure, but that should be the motivation, not a few BOD members pushing and shoving the masses to get the job done. I am also becoming more and more satisfied that even with good communications efforts, some folks are not going to respond, so, instead of a pure democratic process I am more willing to accept the leadership of a smaller number if I am convinced all this "leadership" has demonstrated they care enough. I know, it is not a logical conclusion but "it is what it is." Also proxies need to have the close scrutiny of my "leadership" group and fairness must be maintained. If my "group" has done their communicating over the year, the need to "load" the proxy will not exist. The Board will be assigned all the votes they need and specific name suggestions will not be necessary. Inform the owners of how and why proxies are necessary in Board reports during the year.

MaryA1

Posts:0

11/22/2008 3:17 AM
Robert, Because so many boards abuse the proxy vote is the reason AZ outlawed proxy voting several years ago. Too many boards were stating only a board member could be designated a proxy and were not accepting proxies assigned to other than a board member. I don't know if this is legal, but it was being done and the board's were getting away with it. When there is no state agency to oversee HOAs, boards can get away with just about anything, as you know.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

11/22/2008 9:13 AM
And, Robert, conversely I would take strong objection to signing a proxy that did NOT designate to whom I give my right to vote. I want my vote in the hands of someone I have some modicum of knowledge will vote in a way consistent with my preferences and values.

SusannaM
(Florida)

Posts:366

11/22/2008 9:30 AM
Posted By MicheleD on 11/22/2008 9:13 AM And, Robert, conversely I would take strong objection to signing a proxy that did NOT designate to whom I give my right to vote. I want my vote in the hands of someone I have some modicum of knowledge will vote in a way consistent with my preferences and values. Michelle, I get the hint....

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/22/2008 9:37 AM
MicheleD, My reference is the suggesting by the Board (who else), that the owner assign their right to (in this case, the secretary), or anyother unnamed person. I suppose that agrees with what you said above. I also want more that a modicum of knowledge concerning a vote. As far as quorum is concerned, I am in favor of lowering the % required for a meeting to something realistic to the individual association. The evils of this are clear but anything is better than no meetings. As far as assigning a proxy for vote, be it election or specific issue, I don't like them, they get abused. Another consideration is for attentive and knowledgeable owners to to form a civic group and actively solicit proxies from members. I would buy into that if I were going to be absent at a meeting, but only if I had reason to support the effort.

HalT
(Florida)

Posts:9

11/22/2008 11:50 AM
Thank you all for the info. It kind of supports my thoughts as well. I think the best thing to do is lie low for the year and next year, since there will be 3 out of 5 spots available, flood my community for their votes. I lost this years election by 9 votes. I believe the proxy process was not handled properly to "fix" the election but I will try again next year. Again, thank you everyone on a job well done.

HalT
(Florida)

Posts:9

11/22/2008 11:50 AM
Thank you all for the info. It kind of supports my thoughts as well. I think the best thing to do is lie low for the year and next year, since there will be 3 out of 5 spots available, flood my community for their votes. I lost this years election by 9 votes. I believe the proxy process was not handled properly to "fix" the election but I will try again next year. Again, thank you everyone on a job well done.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/22/2008 11:59 AM
Hal, How are your votes counted? By a committee or how? You also have the right to designate a spotter at the counting if you are uncertain that things are not being done properly. But at least you gave it a good try. As you said, next year you can try again. get out there so that the members of your community know that you are working in everyones best interest. Good Luck to you.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

11/22/2008 12:18 PM
Posted By SusannaM on 11/22/2008 9:30 AM Posted By MicheleD on 11/22/2008 9:13 AM And, Robert, conversely I would take strong objection to signing a proxy that did NOT designate to whom I give my right to vote. I want my vote in the hands of someone I have some modicum of knowledge will vote in a way consistent with my preferences and values. Michelle, I get the hint.... ?? what "hint" ?? I would like to get it, too. . . .

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