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JenC1

Posts:0

11/27/2008 6:12 AM
Correct. We have a receptionist, maintenance man, an ARB admin, a BOT admin, and an ARB assistant. They are paid and located on-site here in our development. We use a management company to only collect dues.

JonD1
(New York)

Posts:782

11/27/2008 6:33 AM
Jen: Might I ask, do you have some idea of what each of these folks are paid? And in total? And the cost to have a MC collect your dues? Total cost of operations on your property? What type of housing? How many units? Age of property? Just wondering what the fianlk cost to the unit owner is. Happy Thanksgiving

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:1510

11/27/2008 7:08 AM
Posted By JenC1 on 11/27/2008 6:12 AM Correct. We have a receptionist, maintenance man, an ARB admin, a BOT admin, and an ARB assistant. They are paid and located on-site here in our development. We use a management company to only collect dues. Hmmmm, interesting. Another option would be to eliminate the management company that collects dues and instead have the HOA operating funds deposited in a bank that offers lockbox service. Homeowners mail their dues addressed to the HOA, but at a PO box number that the bank provides. The bank collects the dues from the PO box and deposits them in the account and provides the HOA with a statement of the daily transactions. Just another way of handling it. It would be interesting, though, to compare the cost of all the employees, plus taxes, benefits (if any) and payroll overhead, and the cost of any services, to the cost of hiring a management company to do all of those same things.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/27/2008 7:18 AM
Jen and Jon, Jon makes a good case here Jen. Off the top of my hat, I would have to ask why you or who structured your administration that way. But it might make perfect sense if we knew at least the answers to Jin questions. Sometimes in the mish mash of association living, the years go by and someone might question why we are doing things the way we do, and the only explanation seems to be because that's how we always did them. Financial reports to owners seem to be one of our sticking points with me. I am all for full disclosure of where the money goes and even though our association is changing things for the better, they seem to reach a point where they conclude what they put out is enough. For instance, our management fees has always been blurry and too much discretionary funding for my taste. Some of that has been changed but if an owner wants something like: "What's the totsl amount we spend on management fees?" The latest answer is: "It's all there, all you have to do is look for it." Full disclosure to me means it is all there and you shouldn't have to seek it out."

JenC1

Posts:0

11/27/2008 8:57 AM
I did not structure it that way. To be clear, I am a volunteer on the ARB board for a year and a half (consists of 7 volunteer residents). We have numerous volunteer resident committees here...BOT, ARB, Swim Team, Budget & Finance, etc. Our development was built 22 years ago, and the builders collectively decided to start an HOA that is self-managed. They hired the staff (2 of whom we still have working here), built the houses within 3 years, and left. They (most likely attorneys for the builders) also drew up the bylaws. Residents were encouraged to step in and start committees as needed. Jon, I can provide answers to your specific questions after the BOT meeting in mid-December. I want to attend the meeting anyway b/c they are asking for resident input in regard to our trash service (we pay $1M a year for it...but keep in mind, we have 2,800 units -- single family and attached townhomes). On a side note, I would like for our ARB to subcontract out to a management company to take care of annual inspections (they will do that specifically). Inspections have not been done in a decade b/c of complaints from neighbors and the ARB admin fought against doing it.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/27/2008 10:33 AM
Jen, I for one am becoming more confused. You mentioned above "they" a couple of times. Who, specifically is the "They" that is asking for resident input about trash service. 2,800 units is something close to the size of our island (around 2,400)POA. The POA manages the island under direction of BOD with professional Manager and staff. Our condo is managed by a manager and wife for day to day stuff. We have a 5 person BOD (65units)for oversight and management of the manager (sometimes, it some ways. The manager has been here close to ten years and as all of us do during that long time of being in one place we build empires and learn to play the game to our advantage. But essentially the BOD is responsible for everything and anything that transpires within our property complex. We of course pay fees to condo and also POA. In the POA our condos come under a separate set of covenants. Comparing the two, yours and our POA, we are talking big business and unless an owner is uniquely qualified, the BOD is pretty well selected from what I term the Good old boy's. I don't say this a criticizm as much as that is the way things evolve over time. Not saying anyone doesn't have the right to belong to this group, just that if the un-connected homeowner is going to make a difference he/she has to work within the system. Some folks do not have a fit there, so their salvation is to get on committees and volunteer groups and work for the whole that way. If you have never been to your HOA meeting before, be cool, listen and learn and ask questions, but remember this is a big organization and any drastic changes probably has been considered ove time and rejected. I hope you will be treated with respect and given a time to speak your piece, they owe each owner that and our POA does a pretty good job after a lot of time, growing pains, and power shifts from the developer to the residents and right now the power is with the residents because the developer is about out of developement areas. Do not judge your POA by the ARB. The ARB spells trouble no matter who runs it. It is a tough, tough job.

ColbyS
(Georgia)

Posts:1

12/29/2008 6:50 AM
Wow, what a debate. I've never seen it written in a Doc that a membership needed to approve every Board expenditure. If it's an annual thing, it should certainly be added to the budget, maybe a "volunteer appreciation" line item. I can't imagine it's a great "secret" if it's been done annually, though it should be budgeted for. Depending on the Docs, the membership may have the option to approve, or as is more often the case, disapprove the budget if they disagree with the line item. I think as long as the line item is properly accounted for, a dinner doesn't qualify as "compensation" or "theft" or any synonym of the two. Showing appreciation to those that volunteer to run the Community is a great way to build Community and encourage people to volunteer. This can be done in many ways, and if the Community is against providing a dinner for those people that have volunteered their time and efforts, perhaps a committee can come up with a way to show that appreciation in a way that would be supported.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

12/29/2008 7:15 AM
Colby, Man, we will get all over you like white on rice. Your first post and a good one, shows logic. I am sure this goes on about this coldly expenditures in many of HOA's, my own included but we don't go as far as dinners. I don't approve of it AT All but, so what? They don't listen to me half the time anyway. Your budget remarks are a little more difficult in that I don't know is there are two sets of documents alike. Not from what is posted here anyway, they all have little nooks and crannies then add opinions and you can see what happens. I do believe that a majority of docs. do require the budget be approved by the membership. Now the special project stuff is a lot more difficult. In our case I might complain about the Board expending unbudgeted funds and at some point they may (it happens) come up and say they are underbudget by 25K for the year. Now that's a dilemma. Then we give the manager a credit card to buy supplies and as far as I know, no one looks at the receipt. Anyway, the real confusion exists around here from ready the posts. is that the regulars answering have to decide how best can they help the poster. That can mean that we decide on different tacks and cross swords once in a while, and may appear we all have different answers which might suggest none of us are right. Don't let it bother you, life here goes by very fast and that discussion board slides down the screen like lightning.

LaramieC
(Alabama)

Posts:7

01/22/2009 2:56 PM
I would agree with most and say that it would depend on how nice of a meal they are treating themselves to and are they only discussing neighborhood issues at this meeting. We have our board meetings at 6pm and purchase 1 medium sandwich tray from a local deli, chips and tea because we often have homeowners' association meetings immediately following so they could be in meetings for two and three hours at supper time. In my book, it is not treating them to supper for their service, it's keeping them fueled for a long evening! But we also provide cookies, treats, etc. for the homeowners' at their meeting. To reward people for their service to the association and encourage others to volunteer, we do offer a free clubhouse rental once per event (has to be after you have actually headed the event) to those who have either served on the board, or chaired/co-chaired a homeowners event or committee.

GordonD1
(California)

Posts:131

01/22/2009 4:45 PM
Jen: I believe in transparency. It should be on the Bylaws, or it should be on the budget. If none of the above they should communicate to the members in writing....then the board of directors can enjoy their delicious dinner. Gordon

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1665

01/22/2009 6:22 PM
Posted By LaramieC on 01/22/2009 2:56 PM I would agree with most and say that it would depend on how nice of a meal they are treating themselves to and are they only discussing neighborhood issues at this meeting. We have our board meetings at 6pm and purchase 1 medium sandwich tray from a local deli, chips and tea because we often have homeowners' association meetings immediately following so they could be in meetings for two and three hours at supper time. ... I personally think that this is very reasonable. Further, it would not appear that there is any attempt to hide this expenditure either.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

01/22/2009 9:25 PM
Well, folks, this has been argued to death, and yet someone feels the need to dig up the remains and check for vital sounds and get some live support for this subject. We are not going to agree on this, there is little or no evidence that dictates in the documents this kind of largess or any other kind is written in any documents. There are those that claim the Board discretionary powers endows them this lattitude. Me, I'm against it, but that weighs just about as the weight of the words scraped off the paper. But one thing is very clear from all this, it is done so frequently and without prior announcement and justification that NO ONE really has a handle how wide spread this practice is, what are the costs involved and does it go beyond a sandwich and a cup of coffee. So, for me, I watch and make my point when I can. I have learned it does not bear in your favor to go to battle without out effective ammunition. IMHO

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

01/23/2009 6:08 AM
Gorden, I believe in being much more transparent than you adovate Gordon. I do not think any of this should even be considered as some kind of regular perk, documents or not. I do not think the authority is there, and you notice nothing like this ever gets transferred over in the developers turn-over. Probably because he can get around it easy, he just does it, but I bet it is wrong, and second, the lawyers that write this kind of stuff know full well there is no state authority to do this kind of stuff in a Homeowners Association. Having said that, our condo, like a lot of condos is going to have to play some catch up in maintainence and other areas in the administration procedures of our complex. We have three new members and looking for two more come April. I can see how much time and effort these folks are putting into this. Hours and hours and hours, spent mostly getting all the ducks in a row. Their is NOBODY that appreciates this effort anymore thasn I do. In my 20 years I have given a lot also so I don't feel guilty about what they are doing, I admire them. Which brings up the fact that all that post here have some grasp of the apathy that exists in HOA's. It can at times be overwhelming as we have seen. But those of us that advocate restricted bennies for Board members do so knowing they don't have the support of the members and if the members are asked, they vote more out of a guilty conscious, than knowledge of what can be done. I do not believe that spending regime funds in this manner falls under the heading of the Boards' declaration they can do anything that they consider is good for the association. I believe the Board should have wide lattitude to act in emergency or even semi-emergency conditions as long as they rationally explain their action. This topic defys the logical and legal support it needs.

GordonD1
(California)

Posts:131

01/23/2009 8:54 AM
RobertR1: Jen's question was not hard to respond. I believe that you are very transparent. I am as well. I love things to be white and black. Unfortunately it does not happened all the time. To me is very simple: If is not on the bylaws or the budget then the all the members should be advise. There are many volunteer members in the committees. Board of Directors should understand the rules. I don't see the dinner wrong. Just keep all the homeowners informed. I really believe that Jen has received great information from all of us. Enjoy a fun weekend, Gordon

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:288

01/25/2009 9:07 AM
First of all I wish to thank Josph w from Michigan and Susan M from I forget where as well as the kind gentleman from Mew York near the end of this thread. To the naysayers grow up will you. You guys sit here on a web site designed to help BOD members and comment on what others should do. Let me share some thoughts with you. Yes you certainly do have a right to speak but speak at the correct place and the correct time. You naysayers do you even vote at your hoa meetings yearly? Do you naysayers vote for the Congressional leaders that vote them pay raises by themselves every year, that voted them selves there own private bank. Do you even bother to attend city or county tax meetings open to the public at all I say most likely no thats why most politicans are so crooked because folks like you want to damn your neighbors for helping yu protect what is the biggest investment in your life. Have you ever served on a BOD do it for 1 year and then quit I am positive you will never go neear it again. I have been on my BOD for 20+ years why you ask? Simple no one elese will we have a standing joke with our BOD we call 1 lady the PFL they call me the tfl and the VP is called the vpfl Know what that stands for ? President for life treasurer for life Vice President for life Want to know why? Because people are institutionalized into thinking somebody else will provide thats not my job. Do we do what that HOA did no. Have we ever done such a thing yes once after a 4 year fight with the City Government to get our plans for a new parking lots around the community and a new clubhouse that they the city allowed the developer to remove from the PUD palns yea we went out and had a big meal at IHOP the bill was $24.00 for the PM and the 5 BOD members. Thats such a big deal? A VERY LEARNED FRIEND OF MINE STATED GO SWIMMING BEFORE YOU HOLLER AT THE WATER HE ALSO SAID PARTIIPATE BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN HE ALSO STATED FAR BETTER TO KEEP MOUTH SHUT THEN TO SPEAK AND TAKE AWAY ALL DOUBT What we do know is have the MC pay for a sandwich type meal every other year as a way of saying thanks for using them and allowing others to make a living for doing things for us some call it a job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT A BOD DOES JOIN ONE................IN 20+ YEARS WE HAVE ONLY HAD A LEGAL QUORIUM 2 TIMES AND WE WERE ALL ELECTED OR RE-ELECTED. In case you did not know it if a HOA is disolved for any reason in Florida which is fairly easy the law reads that a person is selected by the state to run the HOA at what ever salary they choose and that person pays the bills. I know of 1 in New York State that did that they had to pay him 90,000 dollars a year and he had the right to hire his entire family as vendors........think about that when you complain about your free at no cost Board of Directors...................

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

01/25/2009 12:07 PM
I'm not exactly sure of your point, but I'll bite on your questions: Posted By JohnM3 on 01/25/2009 9:07 AM First of all I wish to thank Josph w from Michigan and Susan M from I forget where as well as the kind gentleman from Mew York near the end of this thread. To the naysayers grow up will you. You guys sit here on a web site designed to help BOD members and comment on what others should do. Let me share some thoughts with you. Yes you certainly do have a right to speak but speak at the correct place and the correct time. You naysayers do you even vote at your hoa meetings yearly? MD: Yes. I vote at board meetings, too! Do you naysayers vote for the Congressional leaders that vote them pay raises by themselves every year, that voted them selves there own private bank. MD: I vote for congressional leaders, and I'm guessing, since their jobs are PAID POSITIONS that they do vote for pay raises for themselves. That's still transparent, AND we KNOW they are entitled to a salary. Do you even bother to attend city or county tax meetings open to the public at all MD: Why, yes, I do. And Metro Council meetings, and Council Advisory meetings, and Vacant Property Commission meetings. . . I say most likely no thats why most politicans are so crooked because folks like you want to damn your neighbors for helping yu protect what is the biggest investment in your life. Have you ever served on a BOD MD: Yes, not just an HOA board, but local municipal boards as well. However, I HAVE been on my HOA board for over 12 years. Please do not make the same mistake that others make that an HOA is the same as a governmental agency and that the Directors are to be compensated or paid. Some HOAs may have that as part of their structure; most, however, do not. And for those that do not, I am still very strongly against the board deciding amongst themselves that they "deserve" to be treated to a formal dinner as some sort of recognition or payback. IF the residents want to do that, and IF they vote on the issue and support it, then I have no problem. What I have the problem with is doing it with no transparency and the members not weighing in on it. It has nothing to do with the technical ability of the board to approve certain expenditures below certain amounts, it has everything to do with perception. And to me, and probably most other homeowners who might "find out" about it, the perception is that they are diverting HOA funds for their own use and enjoyment, and doing it under the table or behind closed doors. That's the problem I have with it. We board members have enough of a time trying to maintain a reputation for honesty, transparency and fairness. That one dinner, under those circumstances, undermines every effort otherwise. (IMO)

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:924

01/25/2009 12:28 PM
Well said, Michelle. Well said.

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