NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/08/2008 7:02 PM |
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Our archives have been digitizied, scanned and put on disk's. (to the tune of seversl thousand's and thousand's of dollars)I understand this process allow's us to access information readily. I would assume something like "Google"
Recently our "in house" Attorney wanted to look up encroachments. Our "Ombudsman" was in charge of the digitizing process. Therefore he was asked to do the research on the encroachments. He charged our HOA $4,575.00 (in one month) to do this research. Does this seem a little excessive, Or don't I understand the digitzing process.
They claimed he needed to buy software.
NancyM2 |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/08/2008 8:01 PM |
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As I understand it, the scanning of the documents just means that the pages have been basically photographed.
Unless he had specific software that had to be purchased to turn these documents into different formats,(such as a word-searchable document) then someone would have to pour thru the pages to find the material being searched.
In any case, an itemized invoice should have been provided to the board BUT a bid on all work should have been submitted even before that. It sounds like these prices are a surprise to you. |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/08/2008 8:42 PM |
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We spent over 100K to scan our archives and put them on disk's ~~ no one wants to tell me how much. I just know he was paid %50.00 an hour to have him do this. What is the point of spending all that money unless it would save you time later on??? Would the software be that expensive to put our arcives on (word-searchable document)? No itemized invoice was presented ~ just $50.00 an hour.
Nancy |
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BruceD
(Ohio)
Posts:9
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| 10/08/2008 8:51 PM |
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| At first brush, it seems like you have been had. What does the original contract with this person call for? Does it just provide for the scanning of the documents, without dealing specifically with the retrieval of same? You need to look at what was initially proposed and agreed to. Just because someone created a file with your documents in it, doesn't mean that they can be easily located and retrieved. A document management system is what you need, but may not be what you purchased. The process of scanning and indexing documents is a very time consuming, and labor intensive task, unless advanced character recognition is utilized. |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/08/2008 9:09 PM |
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I just know he is one of our homeowners, that happens to be our "Ombudsman" He is paid 86K a year for Ombudsman, plus $50.00 a hour to scan and put our archives on disk's. The expense for this was put under line item "legal expenses" One year Legal expenses were 141K ~ However other things were thrown into that lne item as well, so it's hard to tell how much went to scanning. If he has a contract, no one has seen it. does not sound like he used "advanced character recognition"
Nancy |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3694
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| 10/08/2008 9:14 PM |
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| Nancy, you paid way way way tooooooooooo much. We scan all documents which are not in digital form and convert them to digital format using Omnipro 16 optical character recognition )OCR). The time consuming part of the job is proof reading after OCR so the best software available is needed. We spent a few hundred for the software and have used it for all the association we manage. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150 
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/08/2008 9:57 PM |
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Roger, are you telling me that our Mgmt Co should/could have been doing this for us ?
NancyM2 |
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PeterB1
(Florida)
Posts:56
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| 10/09/2008 5:27 AM |
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Adding to what RogerB said (this is my occupational area).
Scanning to capture ONLY an image does exactly that - it stores an image of the paper document. If you scan all your documents and store them in this manner, you may throw away the paper. But, if you want to search the minutes of all the meetings last year for a specific phrase - you have to do it manually.
If you scan and use OCR, you are converting to an electronic file that can be searched electronically - like Google searches for something on the internet. This makes a search possible by anyone with access to a computer. This is clearly the way to go - if you can afford it.
If you are not reaching back to do old documents, be sure that the documents that are being created on a daily basis are searchable. Ask your accounting people to show you how you can find a specific transaction by amount or vendor. This is something they should be providing for you.If not, find out why not! |
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JoanF
(California)
Posts:10
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| 10/12/2008 11:36 AM |
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| Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but what is an ombudsman in this context and what does he/she do that's worth 86K/ year?? |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3694
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| 10/12/2008 12:57 PM |
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Posted By NancyM2 on 10/08/2008 9:57 PM
Roger, are you telling me that our Mgmt Co should/could have been doing this for us ? NancyM2
No Nancy. I am not aware of the capabilities of your MC. What I said is the cost paid could have been much less. Depending on what was needed are cost is probably in the range from a maximum of 1/10th to 1/50th or less of what you paid.
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3694
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| 10/12/2008 12:59 PM |
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| Sorry, "are" should have be our. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/12/2008 1:31 PM |
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Joan ~~ Beat's the heck out of me?? I was on our budget committee this year and suggested we put him on billable hours. That didn't go over with the board. Fact is he spends very little time as the "Ombudsman"
and they know this. He spends most of his time as a grounds overseer, which traditionally is a volunteer position. I assume his Ombudsman title is a "bogas" title just to pay him a salary. Since we went over by quite a bit this last year for our grounds. I asked them if this was something like having the fox watch the henhouse. We are upside down on our budget by quite a bit.
He is paid seprately for his digitizing. $4,575. just for the month of September 2008
NancyM2 |
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JoanF
(California)
Posts:10
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| 10/12/2008 5:26 PM |
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| Well, I'm not sure how your HOA is organized or who is "sponsoring" this "ombudsman" or why, but it sounds like he is royally ripping off the association. He's getting paid 90K+ of association funds for what sounds like a $500 OCR scanning job and some grounds work which until now was a volunteer job???? I'd bring this up in the appropriate forum as soon as possible!! |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/12/2008 6:10 PM |
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Joan ~ It started off by him being the grounds volunteer, losing his regular job and since he was a friend of the board he was then given the title of Ombudsman~~ (he did take a 6 weeks corruespondence course) They also gave him the ditizing job to earn extra money. Thats not the worst of it. We also have a full time attorney that pull's in 160K+ a year. (they both have each others back) right now we have NO legal issues, so our attorney is looking into encrochments, some go back 20 years.(busy do work)They both have convinced the board they are necessary as they keep us from pending litigation. The even worst part is this Ombudsman screens any board applicants. (he is the keeper of that gate) and no one gets on the board unless they are firmly in his corner.
For the FY2009 our Mgmt Co has suggested a 18% raise in dues. They have decided to raise them only 8% ~ possibly more next year if we don't make it. Right now our operating contingency is "O" we spend more than we take in, so we will have a dues increse.
Since I was on the budget committee I screamed and hollered ~ but it did me no good, other than make a lot of enemy's
Right now with our failing economy it will possible just slip trough the cracks ~ since $11.00 a month is small pototos with everything else going on.
NancyM2 |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/12/2008 6:57 PM |
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Nancy,
From you postings I would say that your BOD is drunk on spending money. It is not normal for HOAs to have a staff attorney and Ombudsman.
You should not have had to spend that much money on the conversion of your documents. You could have had them retyped for far less money.
Quite honestly, your is the reason people really should look at the budgets of an HOA before purchase. I just couldn't buy into a neighborhood that feels this kind of throwing money away is acceptable. |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/12/2008 8:46 PM |
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Dear Kirk and Joan
Bare with me as I give you some history. In 2003 we had to levy a specisl assessment of $1,500 each owner to pay off attorneys from a "class suit" we had just settled.
I was the treasurer on the board at that time. As it turn's out our insurence paid more on those "attorney's bill's" than we thought they would.
Therefore we had a large overage that should have been reimbursed to our owners once the attorney's were paid.
That never happened as our counsel held off closing the bankruptcy. Even though we had reorganized, and paid our dept's back. The bankruptcy attorney was not paid, or the bankruptcy closed untill all the monies was used up. which was just recently.
This allowed the large contingency to be spent on salaries like the Attorney, and Ombudsman etc.
It seems the board got used to these luxuries and thought it was the "NORM" None of our board members have had previous board experience, and just went along with what counsel was telling them. Now that we have ran out of money and need a dues increase in order to continue to pay these salaries.
It makes it difficult to discuss cutting someones salary when they are at the table looking at you. (counsel never misses a meeting)Plus she has made friends with all the board members.
(second chapter) MY LAST DITCH EFFORT
I located the tresurer of our neighboring community's board. I asked if I could see their budget, and offered to show him ours ~~ which I did. This neighboring community has the same amenities as we have, soil conditions, view policy's (like for like) Once he looked over our budget he stated he was "dumbfounded" and wanted to talk to the treasurer of our board. I arranged a dinner meeting of the families last evening. The men Board members) all sat together, and the girls visited separately. I don't know what was said, but are in hopes our treasurer will have learned something.
Thanks for listening
NancyM2 |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/13/2008 7:22 AM |
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Nancy,
I had known much of what you said because of previous posts. But quite honestly, I think your attorney is a rat. That money should have been returned to the owners. The special assessment was mis-directed.
I suspect that the attorney knows that she is walking pretty close the the malpractice line in having encouraged the misdirection of the funds as well. But also, any discussion regarding the salary should not be in front of the person. You go into executive session (without attorney) for that discussion. And it may not be pleasant to fire her, but it needs to be done.
Again, the BOD is drunk with staff members and needs to be sobered up. All the same, if the salaries have been paid from the special assessment up until now the proverbial manure may be close to connecting with spinning blades. If my memory serves decently you have about 500 members. And from I recall of your previous discussions you have been spending close to a quarter million on the two areas.
If so then your BOD is drunk on a habit which will cause the dues to increase $500 or so a year. I don't think I would worry too much about the whole thing. I would wait until the annual meeting and ask why your expenses are so far out of line. I would point out that it isn't normal to spend so much on legal fees. |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/13/2008 8:55 AM |
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"yep" Kirk, I am one in the same person still fighting the fight. I have been to many meetings to voice my opinion (includeing general meetings) It falls on deaf ears. I usually get critized for complaining. The only owners that attend is their support group (which are very few) Our attorney attends all meetings automatically, even budget meetings. & Especally executive meetings.
Since the Ombudsman is the only "grounds overseer", they are dependent on him for any information/input. I tried to start a homeowner volunteer "Grounds Committee" I offered to host the meetings and direct their efforts. We got about 13 or so volunteers. It was taken out of my hands immediately by the Ombudsman. And nothing was done with it. He does not want help because then he won't be needed.
Our attorney claimed she didn't close the bankruptcy because of a law suit that was in process with a(out of our community)neighboring homeowner. I never understood that as that suit broke through the bankruptcy anyway. In fact another law suit broke through the bankruptcy as well with "Cal Trans" She claimed she couldn't close the bankruptcy untill the neighboring suit was settled. The bankruptcy was started way back when we had the "class suit" hit us. We had paid off our deptors and we had emeraged back in 2002 ~ the only thing we needed to do was pay off the bankruptcy attorney. (last one to be paid) The owners still believe the reason she didn't close the bankruptcy was because of the neighboring law suit. I feel it was because we would have had to reimburse our owners once that last attorney was paid off. But how can I prove this.
What worries is during this next year (she is still on contract untill June) she will find some encrochment or something to sue someone therefore convincing the board she needs to stay on as counsel.
Thanks for your interest and help
P.S. When we first hired her I was on the board. It was supposed to be for only a year or two to clean up the "class suit" leftovers. She has been with us for five years, and counting. If you add up her salary for that 5 years, it is over 800K (makes you want to cry)
NancyM2
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JoanF
(California)
Posts:10
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| 10/13/2008 11:19 AM |
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Nancy--
I don't know the whole background of this issue, but based just on what you have said, if I were a homeowner in your community, I'd be taking action to prevent what sounds like an unethical and possible illegal waste of association money. I'd also ask, if this waste of money (attorney/ ombudsman) is as egregious as it appears, why do you seem to be the only voice of protest? Where are the hundreds of others whose money is being wasted?
It seems that you're in California. So am I. All your association members should be aware of these items. And your attorney attends executive board meetings? Without a specific invitation for a specific purpose-- no way!
BODs have power, but they aren't the Supreme Court. What else is going on here?
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/13/2008 12:21 PM |
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Joan, After the "class suit" that was a big mess. Things have been pretty quiet and people are happy about that. Also the dues have remained the same for the last 5 years. ~ The HOA has been living off the overage from the special assessment that could/did support those large salary's ~ But no one even knew their was a overage, except me and a few others. They didn't realize it should be reimbursed. I was the treasurer when I was on the board, so I have from time to time kept my eye on our finances. No one else has. I am considered the "watch dog" which our present board does not find "cute"
I don't think anyone realizes the reason we didn't close the bankruptcy was that would have paid off the "last" attorney, therefore having to reimburse monies to the owners. In fact I doubt if I could prove that is what she was doing ~ Since our attorney say's the reason she didn't close the bankruptcy was the on going law suit.
I was wondering if I should contact a HOA attorney, and look into filing a suit for misapproriation of funds or possibly a mal-pratice suit. I don't have a lot of money. But it might be worth looking into. The last thing I want is to cause our HOA problems, I never did agree with suing myself. That's why I didn't join the "class suit"
Any thought's on suing~ I would be happy to settle with (her resigination)
NancyM2 |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 10/13/2008 12:56 PM |
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Nancy, IMO all suing her will do is give her a reason to stay and defend herself; this time probably using the D&O insurance since she's an employee. However a complaint to the State Bar Association may not be out of line and the more people you can get to file one the better.
I would make copies of your budget and the budget of the HOA next door with the same amenities and pass them out to the H/O along with a letter explaining what monies paid for the lawyer and Ombudsman to this point and the amount of fee increase necessary to continue with them.
As far as the Ombudsman being keeper of the gate, Davis-Stirling prohibits banning a person from nominating themselves to the Board. I would get a group of people to nominate themselves for the BOD and collect enough proxies to vote them in.
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/13/2008 1:58 PM |
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Glen ~ What you say makes sense ~ you have some good idea's
Usually when their is a board opening (during the year)The Ombudsman gets out and beats the bushes for another applicant, to be appointed. I have know of several applicants that didn't make it. When it is time for the "General Election" all board positions are full. So no one applies. But it makes sense to try and get several together to apply when we have a year that three positions are available ~ Send out information to the owners, and go for it.
NancyM2 |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/13/2008 2:46 PM |
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Joan, Kirk and group
Just when you think you have heard everything, I have another story.
About a year ago after I had recieved the financial's I noticed that one entry's had been redacted (usually several were)
I noticed the address was out of our area.(not in our HOA) even though the entry was redacted they left an address ~ checking the address through the tax roles I noted it was our esteemed attorney's grandmothers address. several miles from us. The charges were from a vendor we use here in our HOA. I questioned why we were paying $1,350. for services on the grandmothers property.
Our esteemed attorney said she was so embarrassed as the invoice from that vendor was put in our MC's file box and paid by our MC by mistake. I questioned why any invoices were sent to her instead of to our MC. She said she likes to look them over first. I also questioned why grannies invoice was not sent to grannie's address, which is usually customary. She said it was because she handles grannies "trust" therefore pay's grannie's bill's.
The board bought this (I didn't) I was insistent on seeing the reimbursement check ~ when I did see it I noted it came from the Uncle (grannies son) who is an attorney as well. Whoops ~ now we know who really handles grannie's trust.
NancyM2 |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/13/2008 2:49 PM |
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Kirk, check out my last blog sent to Joan and group
NancyM2 |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/15/2008 7:51 PM |
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I think Glen had the right idea about talking to the bar association. But I would take a different approach. I would contact them to simply ask if she might be violating any ethics rules. Tell them you are concerned. The thing is that people often like to help others and they may end up helping you more then if you start with a complaint form.
I would gather as much as possible. But honestly, I think the whole thing is out of line. The money was for the defense of a lawsuit, not for the hiring of an attorney and ombudsman. And quite honestly, I wonder if there isn't some sort of pay off going to the board somewhere. I am sure it is hidden deep, but my spidey sense says more then a 50% chance something is there.
All the same, I would start asking one or two people to help you look things over. Tell them that in looking things over you are not sure if you really are seeing what you think you see. Then show them how the attorney has been living off the special assessment. Ask them how they feel about it as well. Gently guide them into indignation that the BOD would follow the path for so long.
If you pick the right people they will talk with other neighbors and someone will show up asking for more information. Again, walk them gently down the path of enlightenment. But refrain from barking. Let them do the barking for you. Eventually you will have a large group who wants something done. Then you organize a proxy drive and some people to run for the BOD. Hopefully you can swing in a majority in one sitting. |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/15/2008 8:52 PM |
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Dear Kirk,
Thank you for your wise advise, I will take it.
I was able to get the complete file on the bankruptcy (my nephew works for a title Co.) The bankruptcy was closed in 2000 ~ We had paid back all the deptors and was ready to emerge. The only thing was left was to pay off the bankruptcy attorney ~ Therefore it was still on hold. Low and behold it got reopened entering a new lawsuit (which was the reason she said she couldn't close it) I'm not sure who activated it again, or why ~ But I can guess.
I'm pretty sure the bankruptcy attorney was happy to see us back in the fold $$$$$$ ~ So I don't think I will get much information from him. I will be looking into it further, and let you know. Thanks for your interest, and input.
NancyM2 |
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NancyM2
(California)
Posts:149
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| 10/16/2008 8:14 AM |
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Dear Peter, after re-reading the post's I noticed this subject was your "occupational area" Perhaps you could explain the process of digitizing & the normal expenses involved. (how much an hour for services)and how it is normally handled for most company's.
The only information I have is this Ombudsman has a high speed scanning machine he had rented for this job. He keeps this machine at his house. The archives were in a mess, not in any order ~ there were boxes and boxes of archives. I noticed when I was at his house one day he was just feeding the machine with doc's, they were not on any order. I assumed he had a indexing program in play. That was several years ago, and the job took him over a year or more to do. Apparently he is still at it. When I questioned why it took $4,575. in one month just to look up encroachments ~~ thinking it should have been a slam dunk (like Google) I was told they recently had to buy him expensive soft ware to make it easier to find things. This indicated to me the whole process was for "not" What are your thought's on this.
Thank's ~ NancyM2 |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/17/2008 11:31 AM |
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Nancy,
I can give you some real good information on doing it yourself. You would need a high end scanner. Something on the order of $1100 for the scanner. I would at least look at Adobe's Capture package. This is a $350 piece of software. It will scan in the documents, convert them to PDF and run optical character recognition on the scan. You can either dictate where to break documents apart before or after the scan. And when all is said and done, it will put the PDF files where you tell it to.
For setting up your ombudsman, I would expect to pay another $200 to $500 in IT fees getting him up and running.
Your big expense would be in the sorting through things and putting the documents into order. And that would be all labor.
In further not, is that the price on Adobe Capture allows for 30,000 pages to have OCR done. It would cost an additional $150 for another key when that ran out and would be good for another 30,000 pages. In my last position I setup about 20 of these systems for medical records. The scans went very fast. The OCR wouldn't take long though mostly our client didn't use that. The big time taker was the actual placing of scans into the medical records. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:705
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| 10/17/2008 11:49 AM |
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Rather than investing the money into equipment and software, an association that would like to digitize its documents might choose to explore the availability of firms in the area that provide such scanning/digitizing services for the legal profession. They are not cheap (nothing is when it comes to the legal profession), but it may be more cost effective than the alternative. Some of the firms also retain the documents on their server and make them available to clients for reference via the internet.
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PeterB1
(Florida)
Posts:56
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| 10/17/2008 12:07 PM |
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Nancy,
You have gotten a lot of advice from your request. If there is still an open issue and you are still paying someone by the hour, you may want to re-evaluate your process.
I can't imagine a HOA buying equipment to do this job. It's the equivalent of buying lawn equipment to have your grounds maintained. There are companies who provide the service of scanning your documents - one type serves the legal profession ($$$). We have a large firm that primarily services architects. Look to your yellow pages.
Prices vary! Get an idea how many documents you want scanned and contact a few firms. If it is not a priority, they may give you a better price if they can do your job in a slack period.
You need to decide if you want to be able to retrieve the documents thru an electronic search (like Google). This is called 'optical character recognition' and will cost significantly more. Perhaps you could name your documents as they are created - the name becomes the retrieval method (like Board Minutes 08-12-04). So, you can look back at a 'picture' of the old minutes.
Remember, if you are setting this up, it is only of value if your next Board follows and uses what you have done. Good luck
peter |
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