JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/08/2008 1:52 PM |
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Our 1987 CA HOA Documents have never been updated. Our community has the same apathy and non-participation as yours. We established a website Community Forum
to gather input.."what needs to be changed." About 15% of our homeowners have
commented on the forum. Other than updating to Davis-Stirling standards, the only
issue seems to be street parking in front of one's home vs parking in our garages.
We are a small community (140 homes) and we don't have "guest parking"; the CCR's
aren't clear with one section saying "garages must allow space for 2 car parking,
another section says "if space is allowed for 2 cars.......and no where does it stipulate that we can't park on the street. 95% of the HO's are courteous and
respectful of where they park and don't use the space in front of neighbor's homes.
(although using this space isn't illegal.) The problems usually stem from renters
and their friends. In the next week or so, I want to create an on-line voting survey to narrow down how to rewrite the parking issue.(with our lawyer.) Does anyone have a suggestion or example they could share. We were successful with a
mailbox survey....but this is a highly controversial matter, one that each upset
HO tosses to the BOD when they don't like a ruling. This is worse than "lipstick
on a pig".........and the survey will list all the options we feel are possible.
Also.....in 21 years this issue has never been enforced: My guess is twofold.
One, parking is rarely a problem; how do you enforce what's inside the garage of one's single family home? Additionally there are several cars that won't fit into
our garages due to size of vehicle. Personally I think each garage is the HO's business. But some middle ground needs to be established and be"reasonable."(LOL)
I am sending this then searching for my Tagamet.
Jackie |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/08/2008 4:22 PM |
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Don't deal with the inside issue now - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Now, about the parking on the street. Can the local police help out?
If not, put brightly colored papers under the windshield reminding them of the violation, and make it a warning.
Your streets must be clear for emergency vehicles. Any reason other than that will be ignored.
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/09/2008 12:52 PM |
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Susan,
I probably didn't make myself clear, so let me try again.
We need to clean up the street/garage issue with the revision of our CCR's to
meet Davis-Stirling regs. We are a normal, non gated, nice community of 140
homes. We own the streets. Only rarely is there a parking issue, "they have
too many cars and are parking in front of my house." This typically is from a
rental home, having dozens of friends over. Anyone can park anywhere, but some
feel that the curb street in front of their home "should" be theirs. Not so!!
The argument is always the same......"why aren't they parking in their garage,
make them!!" The CCR's are cloudy on this issue. I am looking for direction with creating a survey to see what acceptable options we might come up with.
Thanks,
Jackie |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/10/2008 11:42 AM |
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I wouldn't bother worrying about a survey. I don't think you will find enough people willing to endorse a change to bring in parking restrictions. Remember that for the rule to be effective it will hit a number of people who do own their homes and may one day have a guest parking in front of a neighbor's house.
Instead, I would write a ban on parking in front of other people's house. But be sure that this can fail while allowing more important items to pass. Don't worry either way about the success. In fact, you might even want to encourage failure. In the end, you can honestly state that there isn't a rule and that the membership failed to enact such a rule. |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/10/2008 12:05 PM |
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kirk,
this sounds interesting but my grey matter is slow today. Could you go a bit
further with explaining. I am committed to a survey, because at the beginning of our community forum, on-line, I said I would summarize the issues and post
in the form of the survey (to see how serious each issue is). With one week to
go with the forum only "fight" is over parking, which is really a non-problem but our CCR's cloud the issue and members interpret it differently to suit their needs. the big issue is CCR's state that our garages must be kept so
2 cars can fit in....Probably 80% of HO's violate this, including me raising
grandkids with x-box.......Some houses have driveways, some don't. Some members have tall trucks that won't fit in the garage. Unless this is written
well, I feel this issue will hold up the CCR's from being updated to Davis-Stirling (Ca style). Just put a bullet to my head!!
Jackie
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/10/2008 1:42 PM |
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Jackie,
Perhaps the board should consider defining the parking rule to clarify it's meaning. Your CCRs should have a provision giving the board to authority to interpret the covenants. I'm not sure why your want to undergo a survey when you seem to know how the majority of the members feel about parking and also what the limitations are for some (i.e, vehicles that don't fit in the garage). |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/10/2008 2:02 PM |
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Thanks Mary,
we really don't "know".....and only the squeeky-upset members get heard it seems. this may sound idiotic, but when everyone gets a chance to vote on line
(unofficially) there seems to be an acceptance of what comes next....which will be official voting for CCR updates. We need 67% to pass, but 51% can be
taken to court and ruled by a judge. From my readings, the CA judges dig deeply to assure that members were treated fairly and respectfully. The survey will be our last "marketing" and we hope to get the parking written
clearly and as fair as it can be. Kirk's suggestions have me curious so I hope
he can go into some detail.
Again,
thanks
Jackie |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/10/2008 2:35 PM |
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Jackie - I don't know why you are even wanting to deal with the 2-cars-in-every garage-rule when your real problem is the parking on streets.
If these cars parked on the street prevent emergency vehicles from getting to homes, then the police will help you out by ticketing the vehicles.
Another option is to post NO PARKING signs OR put times on the signs for the hours you want the streets clear.
Your survey can ask people if they feel this street-parking issue is worthy of action by the board.
If the Board is not asked to fix something, then don't do it! 
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/10/2008 3:12 PM |
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Our outdated CCR's refer to open space in garages to fit 2 cars. The streets are fine, emergency vehicles can get through..........but whenever someone get
a bug up their nose..........this issue comes up. "why aren't you making everyone park in their garages?" Since we are updating our 1987 CCR's it's long overdue to settle this issue. We have a few in our community that like the
power of saying what needs to be stored in someone's garage. We have a minute
parking problem, usually with a rental home.....and all their friends. Even that is rare. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/10/2008 6:53 PM |
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Here is my take on the keep the garage so that two cars can be parked:
If the intent is to regulate how clean your garage is, then the rule is a violation of privacy and thus unenforceable. End of story. You can not regulate how clean the garage is.
More likely the real issue is that you can not convert the garage into a room at the expense of parking space. The unfortunate fact is that the wording has become common in covenants and the people choosing them simply throw them in because it strikes them as good at the moment. And in a pinch, you could pull all of the junnk into the house and put your cars in your garage.
A much better wording would simply prohibit the conversion of a garage into an additional room. But even better would be to prohibit the modification of the exterior with additions of windows and doors (or the elimination of the overhead door).
Since you are committed to the survey I would throw in a simple question:
"Please rate the severity of parking problems in our neighborhood." |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 10/11/2008 8:25 AM |
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| Jackie, can you post the section you are trying to amend, especially the part about the garage. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/11/2008 10:03 AM |
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When someone asks "why aren't you making everyone park in their garage" you can answer "because that rule was written when two cars could fit into the garage and since the rule no longer applies, people are parking in their driveways, making no room for guests'cars. Those visitors are now parking in the streets. We need to update our rules so no one parks in the streets overnight."
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/13/2008 7:51 AM |
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My answer would be:
"Because the rule states only that the person be able to put two cars into the garage. It doesn't restrict them from being parked in a drive or on a street." |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/13/2008 1:16 PM |
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I can't get the parking section to cut and paste. I am going to ask Community
123.com to help if possible. "oh Doug......." |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/13/2008 1:30 PM |
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this is exactly what we have been saying......but with the pending CCR restatement we want to do it right. I have added the question to the potential
survey questions. I still want to see if there is a way I can get the entire
section (garage parking vs street) pasted to this dialogue.
Part of the section states "must be maintained to accomodate 2 cars" and another section says "if space is available." Let's see if Doug @ HOATalk can
help me. He is a wizard.
Jackie |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/13/2008 1:32 PM |
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god knows that I am trying. I don't know why it won't paste? Perhaps my glue
is dry. LOL |
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hoatalk
Posts:486
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| 10/14/2008 2:10 PM |
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| I posted the CCRs here as an attachment for Jackie. |
Attachment: 11014102255471.doc
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HOATalk.com, A free service of Community123.com
Provider of Upscale Community Websites
CLICK HERE to get a FREE trial community website
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/14/2008 4:32 PM |
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| The attachment that Roger attached is great, but how do enforce this? How do you enforce without inspections and unless it's Condo ownership (limited common area), how do you tell a townhome owner that you're going to need to inspect his garage? If it's possible, I would love to see it done in our neighborhood. |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/15/2008 9:40 AM |
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This is exactly why it has never been enforced in 21 years (original CCR's) and
why it is so important to make a "restatement" that can "get passed". I have a
few HO's already say they will vote against any change, even the Davis-Stirling
updates. I appreciate each and every comment.
Jackie |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/15/2008 3:02 PM |
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| I know that in a condo community that you can require inspections, since the space is considered a limited common element, but with fee simple, single family detached or single family attached homes; I have to wonder how other communities enforce this. A number of the newer communities and alot of the Florida communities have clauses in their docs like the one that Roger shows as an attachment; but I'm dying to know how they enforce it. If someone converts their garage to a rec room living area and faces off the garage door with drywall on the inside, I can call the zoning inspectors and they will address this, but typically a lot of the garages turn into storage facilities, business equipment storage, excercise studios with treadmills, boxing equipment, furniture shops with full size table saws, planers, etc. Some of them turn into other types or workshops, etc. I don't think that the HOA has any rights to inspect the garages unless they are limited common areas, so I guess that we're screwed. If anyone comes up with an effective way of enforcing this, I'll send them a case of their favorite beer or wine. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/15/2008 4:38 PM |
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Quite honestly, I don't see why they HOA should try to enforce this. The one thing that it does do is give power to deny ARC submissions to turn the garage into a room. And then you avoid the conversion look where someone takes out the overhead door and puts in a wall with a window and perhaps a "normal" type door.
If the exterior does not change, then I am not sure that it is the business of the HOA. In my opinion the HOA should be concerned with the curb appeal and stop there. Perhaps a better way would be to prohibit the changing the appearance of the garage into a room. |
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JackieB
(California)
Posts:114
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| 10/16/2008 12:36 PM |
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Just an FYI to those that have followed this topic. The only issue that seems
to be a thorn with all of our HO's is street parking vs. garage space.
No one has remodeled to make another room. This has never been an issue for
the ARC. Of the 140 homes, probably at least 3/4 can't get 2 cars in their
garages due to exercise equip., storage, kids' XBox, etc. My survey for our
website has included many of your suggestions. I will let you know how the
diaper drops, so to speak. FYI- I feel the garage space is one's own business
and off limits to HOA. The developer walked both sides of the fence when the
parking issue was stated.
Jackie |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/16/2008 3:59 PM |
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| Kirk - You obviously don't live in a townhome community and/or your have plenty of parking where you live in Texas. In most of these types of communities the county zoning dept approves the builders project based on there being at least 2.3 spaces per home. The garage townhome driveway counts as one space and the driveway counts as one space. All the non-garage owners have two reserved spaces in the parking lot. When the garage owners change this space into other uses, they essentially are impinging on the rights of the other non-garage owners and everyone's guests who may come to visit. Also, I don't know what kind of loose zoning laws they have in Texas, but in most jurisdictions where someone finishes off a garage into living area, they need a permit for that, I know for a fact that here, they absolutely would not let you convert a townhouse garage into living finished living space. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/17/2008 11:20 AM |
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Mike,
You are quite correct in that I don't live in a town home. Though from what I have seen here in Texas most town homes have more parking. I have seen cases where people indicate there are less then 2 parking places per unit, and that would never fly here. Though the parking may become less desirable you would have a hard time selling anything here where your guests wouldn't have a place to park.
As for the permit to finish the inside of the garage into a living space, a permit is required here. In spite of what some movies and/or TV shows might display Texas is up on the times with having regulations and the like. While there are a few places in Texas where one need not get a permit to build, those places are fast disappearing.
Now if one lived in a place like you mention where removing the spot to park is taking away from someone else, I can see where the HOA should be involved. But in my neighborhood I don't see it that way. Many in my neighborhood don't park in their garage. And if someone makes a room from part of that space in such a way that it is not visible from the street then I don't see that as a legitimate HOA concern. That would be between the person and the city. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/17/2008 3:24 PM |
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| Nice response Kirk! Appreciate the thoughts. God bless Texas. |
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