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JoseS2 (California)
Posts: 27
Posted:
I am a board member now and requested a copy of the financials from the management company. I was told by the manager that "the board has been talking and told me not to send them to you" which means they have been holding meetings/discussions without the whole board.
I followed that up by telling her that legally I was entitled to see them as a board member and a member and that I would come to the office and pick them up if she wishes. She then emailed me telling me that they were going to be sent out in the mail but does not no how long that would take.
Does she have to get them to me within a time period?
I will say that I am not happy with the spending that has been going on in our community.
Any suggestions?
SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366
Posted:
Have you checked your Covenants ?? Here in FL they have so many days to oblige to a request by a homeowner. You, as board member, should not have to wait.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Jose,

Check out the Davis-Stirling Act -- the CA state law governing HOAs. Request for assn records is most likely covered.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
What "financials" did you request from the MC. Why did you go there for information? Did you want to look at the check ledger?

Your treasurer should have all the information that you would need to get a picture of the financial situation of the HOA.

Request those from that person - although at EACH board meeting, the treasurer should be giving monthly report, AND a year-to-date revenue/expenditure vs. the budgeted amount AND a balance sheet listing all accounts.

What more did you want to see?
SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366
Posted:
SusanW, what you are saying about Treasurer might be true in some states but not all. You are assuming his Treasurer does all the bookkeeping whereas he's saying Mgmt. Co. does the record keeping. Therefore Mgmt. Co should provide copies to board member upon request.
JaneK (California)
Posts: 175
Posted:
You are entitled to see the documents. You can review them at Mgmt’s office, by email or snail mail. If the BOD is failing to turn over HOA documents you can file a complaint with the Attorney General, that is one of the few HOA items the AG will get involved with.
http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/homeowner_assn.php

That may get their attention. I believe they have 10 days to come up with the documents for the current year. Civil Code §1363(f), Civil Code §1365.2, Corp. Code §8311, Corp. Code §8333

Management is allowed to make a profit, they can charge a nominal fee in addition to mailing and reproduction costs, small claims court is your option if you feel the fee is out of line. There should be no charge to just look at them.

Under CA Civil Code 1363.05 Any gathering of a majority of board members to discuss the business of the association is a meeting and in CA meetings must be open.

Jane
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Susanna - you are correct ---HOWEVER, the Treasurer is the one who REPORTS to the board and the members. That person should be able to answer any question that any person would have about the finances. At the Annual Meeting, the Treasurer would have all this info to provide to the Members.

The MC is a hired company or employee and I don't think employees should be releasing any documents without authorization from the board.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
So, Id' like to ask: what are HOA "documents" and what does "public exposure" means?

Does that mean looking at the check ledger? going over the finances, line by line? looking at signed contracts? having access to minutes? getting a full disclosure financial report at the annual meeting?

I can't imagine a resident wanting to look at the snow plow contract, when the required bids were stated in the mintues, along with the motion to hire and the president directing the road chairperson to sign the contract.
SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366
Posted:
SusanW, dear, not so in sunny FL. I, as a homeowner, can ask for any documents I want, and they'd better obliged within a reasonable number of days. Most treasurers here are merely overseers.
JoseS2 (California)
Posts: 27
Posted:
I am onne of the board members so I think I should be able to see them. I have serious concerns that we have way over spent our budget for this year and still have 3 months to go.
The treasurer only reads off what the management company gives her. which unless you have a background in accounting makes very litte sense to most.
I want the members to know where the funds are going. Most assume our association is financially sound but we are far from that.
I know this will shake things up a bit so I am trying to make sure all my information us current and correct. I want hard copies in front of me so when questions are asked I will be able to answer.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Jose,

I'm sure CA has laws pertaining to requests for assn records. However, as a board member you shouldn't have to jump through those hoops. Copies of the financials should be yours for the asking.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Absolutely, - call the treasurer and tell her/him you are going to request all those financial reports (I listed above) - copies for EACH of the members of the board.

She can't provide them?

Recall her.
JoseS2 (California)
Posts: 27
Posted:
I requested from the manager because the board is not happy with me. They seem to think it is not the business of the members to know what is being spent on what. I disagree and think that they need to know as they have way over spent our budget this year. So from the point of view of the other board members they think I am "giving out information that people dont need to know"
I think part of my duty is to make sure we are well off financially. We are not and at this point we can fix the spending problem. If it goes on much longer we will be in the same situation as our great state of CA.
We will see if I get them.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
Of course, board members should have access to all the information they believe they need to exercise their responsibilities.

When a board members is getting a "run around" over availability of financial information, I would be suspicious that there is a problem that is being covered up.

You can gain more insight by examining the financial information provided to members. It is the members (owners) who provide all the money to fund the owners association. They should know how their money is being spent.

If the owners are "kept in the dark", your association likely has a deeper problem. It is time for an audit according to AICPA CIRA.

I support the advice from SusanW1.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Jose - Note that I am talking about the Treasurer, not the MC, providing the information that you want.

I don't think that the MC needs 5 - 9 people at its door, all wanting information.

The Treasurer should be giving reports EACH month that would answer any questions that any board member could ask.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Susan,

I can't believe you suggest recalling the treasurer if she can't provide copies of all the financial statements. Traditionally, it's the property manager who takes care of paying the bills and preparing the monthly f/s. The treasurer doesn't do anything except read the financial report at the monthly board meeting. In fact, the treasurer may not even know how to "read" the financial statement; the treasurer (and board) may have to rely on the P.M. to explain it to her!!

My advice would be to get rid of the P.M. if she/he is unwilling to provide copies to the board members. As a board member, Jose shouldn't have to jump through the hoops that a member requesting assn records would have to.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Who signs the Tax forms?
Who is listed on the Annual Report as the Treasurer?
Is there a job description in the bylaws outlining the Treasurer's job?

The Treasurer should be working with the bookkeeper, MC, or accountant and be in the loop as to what these figures mean on the reports. In turn, the Treasurer reports to the Board. the Treasurere does not have to DO the work, only see that it is done, and done correctly.

BryanG1 (Florida)
Posts: 43
Posted:
Here in Florida, under the new 2008 HOA statutes, any reasonably requested records have to be given to any legal member of the community within 10 business days of the request.

Furthermore, financial records cannot be "kept" from any board member or legal member of the community for that matter. If the board is telling them not to give them to you, then they're just asking for a lawsuit.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Jose,
I live in Virginia and I am experiencing almost the same issues. Although I am not a Board Member.
Did you ever get the documents you requested?
Other than a law suite, what can I do if the PM is ignoring my request?
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Jose,

Our management company provides a financial for all board members at every monthly board meeting.
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GraceH on 04/21/2009 8:08 PM
Jose,
I live in Virginia and I am experiencing almost the same issues. Although I am not a Board Member.
Did you ever get the documents you requested?
Other than a law suite, what can I do if the PM is ignoring my request?

Grace,

The Virginia Property Owners Association Act (55-510) provides that:

"...all books and records kept by or on behalf of the association...shall be available for examination and copying by a member in good standing... so long as the request is for a proper purpose related to his membership in the association... upon five days' written notice reasonably identifying the purpose for the request and the specific books and records of the association requested."

If you submit a written request to review records under the provisions of this statute and you are not given access, you can appeal to the Virginia Common Interest Community Board (CICB) to intervene on your behalf.

It has been my experience, that when I cite the specific provisions of the statute in my request, the records are made available, though not always within the 5 day period.

Good luck.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
David,
Thank you for your response.
Although I have cited the specific provisions, my requests are argued (taking months to get) or ignored completely. I have spoken to the Office of The Ombudsman however, the person that was helping us in the past, is no longer there. The newer replacement does not seem to have as much experience nor knowledge.
Do I need to do a full blown complaint or are there other avenues to try? From what I understand even filing a complaint, it can take 2 years.
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GraceH on 04/24/2009 7:34 PM
David,
Thank you for your response.
Although I have cited the specific provisions, my requests are argued (taking months to get) or ignored completely. I have spoken to the Office of The Ombudsman however, the person that was helping us in the past, is no longer there. The newer replacement does not seem to have as much experience nor knowledge.
Do I need to do a full blown complaint or are there other avenues to try? From what I understand even filing a complaint, it can take 2 years.

Grace,

The only other thing I can suggest is that you email Pia Trigiani, the Chairman of the CICB, directly, explain the steps you have already taken and ask that she assign someone knowledgeable to help you. Her email address is: [email protected]
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
David,
Thank you so much, I had not thought about contacting her direct about this. A neighbor and I attended a seminar she spoke at in South Riding. I had asked a couple of questions and was told that I may need to seek legal action. Her firm supplied bound copies of the Property Owners and Condominium Act.
RuthF1 (Washington)
Posts: 117
Posted:
Jose, I am having the exact same problem. I found out that the board approved of a dues increase for the next 3 years. Though I feel it is something that should be done they haven't informed the members that this is going to happen.

Document everything! If you ask for something make sure you are doing in an email or letter. I am do this now as I have some real isses with the PM.
RuthF1 (Washington)
Posts: 117
Posted:
Susan, Jose may be running into what is happening here at our association. The Treasure is in name only. We haven't had a treasures report at a meeting for the last 5 years that I know of. This is one thing I am trying to change.

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