LisaS
(Illinois)
Posts:339
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| 10/06/2008 8:44 PM |
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I have question...
Our Annual Membership Meeting is going to be held this week. Currently, our association uses assigned proxy ballots for the election of directors as well as ballots at the election. This has become problematic in our apathetic little association due to door to door campaigns for proxies by those who have an agenda and wish to get voted onto the Board.
I would like to make a motion to add voting by mail to our election. Many other local associations use them and I think we would benefit as well. This way more owners could cast their own vote and aree assured a vote of their choosing even if they cannot attend.
Any suggestion how to present this successfully at the meeting? In our state (Illinois) voting by mail is legal if not prohibited in the CCr's (it is not). Who can/should I make the motion to? Board or membership for vote? Note that our Board doesn't even hold public meetings so I am sure this will not thrill them!
Thanks for any assist. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/07/2008 1:53 AM |
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Lisa,
I've heard that complaint so many times. Some people take exception to others going around gathering proxies. There is nothing illegal about doing this, Lisa; in fact you can do it yourself. However, on the flip side, your idea about mail-in ballots is a good one since many of your members are not concerned to attend the meeting. Mail-in ballots would do alot to eliminate the abuse of proxies which does occur in some HOAs. By abuse, I mean such things as the board stating that a proxy can only be given to a board member. Several years ago, AZ passed a state law outlawing proxies and authorizing mail-in ballots. My assn had already begun the process several years prior to the new law, even amended the bylaws, because it was so difficult to obtain a quorum. The mail-in ballot counts toward the quorum just as a proxy would. Make a motion at the annual meeting and see where it goes. If the majority of h/o's at the meeting think it's a good idea the board can amend the bylaws accordingly. Some bylaws can be amended by the board w/o a vote of the members so this might be a very easy task to accomplish. |
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RenaeW1
(South Carolina)
Posts:33
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| 10/07/2008 5:23 AM |
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| What's wrong with going door-to-door collecting proxies? If we didn't collect proxies prior to our meetings, we would never have a quorum. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/07/2008 5:41 AM |
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Lisa - there are some different issues here.
The proxies may be used to establish a quorum so the meeting can even be held.
Yes, pre-printed ballots CAN be mailed out and taken by return mail, opened at the meeting and counted with the live and proxy votes. HOWEVER, people who file mail-in ballots miss the nominations (if allowed) from the floor and any debate on the motions if there are other issues that are on the ballot. Plus, there may be amendments added to the motion, too.
Pre-printed ballots require a lot of planning to be sure the ballot has all the nominees. Some groups even close the nominations before and do not allow floor nominations. Write ins are still allowed.
The bylaws usually outline the voting process. Some groups allow the board to determine the voting processes. Check that out for how your group does it.
You may have to go through the procedure for a bylaw amendment, which is much more involved than just making a motion at the meeting.
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/07/2008 7:12 AM |
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You already have a mail in ballot. There is no need for an additional motion. The Board can simply give an address to which one can mail their directed proxy. This amounts to a mail in ballot. For that matter, you could even allow people to fax the ballots in or scan and email them in.
Of course this won't stop door to door solicitation of votes. And I would say that campaigning for a position is part and parcel of the American way of life.
If you have issues, then get out and solicit proxies yourself. Be sure to inform people that the last executed proxy vote is the one that matters. Also, that they can execute a proxy and still show up. Their presence negates the affect of the proxy.
In fact, if you don't run while you do this it might appear that you really don't have an agenda. But then again, everyone does. It is just a matter of allowing your agenda to be subjugated to the greater good. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/07/2008 8:55 AM |
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It's really not clear if those are printed BALLOTS or if she meant a proxy form to give someone else the power to cast the vote.
If they were ballots, then why would you call them proxies?
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/07/2008 9:26 AM |
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A ballot is fine when you know all the issues that will be presented. But i a motion from the floor is made, then a ballot becomes useless.
A directed proxy specifies that the holder must vote a certain way for any item known in advance. (Such as for directors.) But the holder can vote on behalf of the other for items moved from the floor. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/07/2008 10:59 AM |
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Posted By KirkW1 on 10/07/2008 7:12 AM
You already have a mail in ballot. There is no need for an additional motion. The Board can simply give an address to which one can mail their directed proxy. This amounts to a mail in ballot. For that matter, you could even allow people to fax the ballots in or scan and email them in.
Of course this won't stop door to door solicitation of votes. And I would say that campaigning for a position is part and parcel of the American way of life.
If you have issues, then get out and solicit proxies yourself. Be sure to inform people that the last executed proxy vote is the one that matters. Also, that they can execute a proxy and still show up. Their presence negates the affect of the proxy.
In fact, if you don't run while you do this it might appear that you really don't have an agenda. But then again, everyone does. It is just a matter of allowing your agenda to be subjugated to the greater good.
Kirk,
A mail-in ballot and a proxy are NOT the same. The mail-in ballot shows the candidates to vote for and is voted by the member and mailed in. A proxy designates another person as your representative to cast your votes for you. It does not have the slate of candidates on it. |
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LisaS
(Illinois)
Posts:339
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| 10/07/2008 11:56 AM |
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Thanks to all who replied, although my question is still not answered! Yes, we have proxies and not ballots that are mailed to homeowners. They are not directed proxies, just general proxies.
We don't have a problem with quorum being reached, so that's not the issue. Nor do we have any voting regarding anything except directors at our Annual Meeting. And...we don't have any bylaws. Only CCR's which take 66 2/3 vote of our membership to change (so getting anything changed via meeting wouldn't happen!)
I understand that nominations would need to be closed so that ballots could be printed and mailed. And yes, nominations from the floor would be missed by those who sent in a ballot. However, the people sending in a ballot would be voting their choice in an informed manner which is something that is not happening now.
Yes I am also aware that I too can go door to door and obtain proxies. However, we have a fairly small association (300 houses). Consequently, anyone who can put together a small voting block can choose their director. Because most homeowners here don't like to rock the boat, they will just hand over their proxy. This has led to an appalling amount of wasted monies, no bid contracts, no public meetings (yes I know they HAVE to have public meetings...but they refuse). These things are easier to change when voters can effect change from their own home rather than attend a meeting.
Just wanted to know who the motion should be made to...homeowners or Board? |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/07/2008 12:00 PM |
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You have no bylaws?? then how can you have elections or a board?
Is EVERYTHNG covered in your CCRs? That is very odd.
Anyway . . . there should be a procedure for how to amend your CCRs.
For our HOA, the verbiage has to be submitted to the board 90 days in advance so it can be checked out for legality, conformity to other documents and feasibility. Then it is placed on the ballot and when the Notice of the Meeting is sent out, the amendment is printed for all to see so they can study it before the day of the vote.
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/07/2008 12:04 PM |
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By the way - just a personal IMHO - I think proxies should be REQUESTED from the secretary ONLY by people who - for good reason - can't attend the meeting.
The Proxy system is being abused by people too lazy to attend or who are taken advantage of by the slick ones trying to pad their own agenda or vote.
Proxies used to meet a quorum is one thing, but to slant an election or motion vote is being abused, IMHO. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2796
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| 10/07/2008 12:07 PM |
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Lisa,
Unfortunately, a motion to add mailing of ballots will not benefit you for this meeting. A Board meeting will be the venue for making a motion to amend the documents. WE have no idea what Ill. law requires and because you say that you have no bylaws, how do you follow voting procedure? Can a member make a motion? and at which type of meeting?. Must you request a time to address the Board? I do find it highly unusual not to have a ballot mail-in. What about absentee owners? Do they sign over their proxies? Too many unknowns here right now. |
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LindaD4
(South Carolina)
Posts:9
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| 10/07/2008 1:16 PM |
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| Amen to that Renae. Same with us. But you let them get upset about something and see how fast they are on your front porch. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/07/2008 2:32 PM |
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Linda,
Since you don't have a set of bylaws, are the voting, meetings and election procedures outlined in the CCRs? (This is very unusual!) Most bylaws state voting can be exercised in person, by proxy or mail-in ballot. Ballots and proxies are generally mailed with the meeting notice. The member can choose to send in the ballot or give their proxie to another individual who will be attending the meeting. If you are considering suggesting an amendment to change the election process, you may want to consider eliminating proxies and require mail-in ballots or voting in person only. The mail-in ballots are counted toward the quorum so there is no need of a proxie for that. You can make this suggestion at the annual meeting and see how many members agree to it. Then the board can take steps to amend the CCRs accordingly. |
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LisaS
(Illinois)
Posts:339
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| 10/07/2008 9:46 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. No ...we do not have any bylaws! And since it takes a 2/3 majority of members to change our CCr's then voting by mail would be of great benefit all around.
Our elections are outlined (poorly) in our CCR's. We had only three candidates for three seats- so the same old members reign again. There were only 30 people and 17 proxies! The meeting turned ugly with name calling and yelling by members who "support" the Board and all their faults against those who ask legitimate questions. Others who may have had questions were forced into silence. The Board failed to call anyone out of order. It was a joke!
I approached the Board after the meeting regarding voting by mail. It is covered in the Not for Profit Act for our state. They were receptive so I'll see where it goes.
thanks all. |
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BonnieE
(Illinois)
Posts:168
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| 10/08/2008 6:26 AM |
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Hi Lisa,
Also hailing from Illinois…
Please re-check your Declaration, as your By-Laws may not be readily apparent. Our By-Laws are not apparent as they are attached to our Declaration as one of many attachments (and our Declaration also includes some of what is covered in the By-Laws). Took me awhile to determine that was the case back in the beginning... 
The IL Condo Act addresses By-Laws:
Please see:
Sec. 17. AMENDMENTS TO THE DECLARATION OR BYLAWS.
(a) The administration of every property shall be governed by bylaws, which may either be
embodied in the declaration or in a separate instrument, a true copy of which shall be appended to and recorded with the declaration.
Please notice the phrase “…which may either be embodied in the declaration…”
And please see:
Sec. 18. CONTENTS OF BYLAWS. The bylaws shall provide for at least the following:
Etc. etc.
http://www.ksnlaw.com/resources/documents/IllinoisCondominiumPropertyActJune2008.pdf
With regard to the annual meeting/election and proxies and ballots in my HOA:
In the mailing packet to the owners notifying them of the annual meeting, we include a combination form proxy and ballot listing the names of those running. Owners may mail in their completed proxy/ballot and/or attend the meeting and/or provide the completed proxy/ballot to someone attending the meeting. The owner has the option of indicating it is to be used only for the purpose of establishing a quorum, OR to establish a quorum and assign their vote to the person who is collecting it, OR to establish a quorum and vote for the candidate(s) of their choice. The owner may also write in the name of the candidate of their choice. If the owner fills out one of these forms, then decides to attend the meeting, it becomes invalid.
I hope this helps,
Bonnie
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/08/2008 8:47 AM |
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Posted By MaryA1 on 10/07/2008 10:59 AM
A mail-in ballot and a proxy are NOT the same. The mail-in ballot shows the candidates to vote for and is voted by the member and mailed in. A proxy designates another person as your representative to cast your votes for you. It does not have the slate of candidates on it.
I am well aware of the difference. But directed proxies are used all the time in corporate governance. I have been receiving proxies since I was 10. All of that time I have received a proxy which allowed me to direct my vote for BOD members. I could vote for people listed. I could also specify to not vote for anyone I chose. A proxy does not have to be a blank slate. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/08/2008 8:54 AM |
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First, to eliminate proxy voting you will most likely have to change the covenants. You might be able to do it through a change of the bylaws. But what makes you believe that those getting proxies won't vote such a change down?
I would also love to know how you figure that people signing a proxy to someone who comes to their door is less informed then the person selecting the name from a ballot. The simple fact is that few people are going to bother checking anything out. And even if they do, there is a lack of information to check out.
Your owners already have the option of mailing in who they wish to vote for. You have the option of collecting proxy votes. If you don't like the direction then get out and get the votes. The fact there are only 300 units doesn't make it harder for you. It actually makes it easier. Potentially you could be hitting the same people up for their proxy. Be the more convincing person. That is what the election is really about anyway. |
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LisaS
(Illinois)
Posts:339
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| 10/08/2008 12:19 PM |
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Bonnie...thanks. We don't have bylaws because neither the developer nor HOA ever drafted them. We would need 2/3 of members to approve them if they were written....which would just never happen. We do have 'Rules and Regulations' because our CCR's allow the Board to create them autonomously. But they are limited by law. And we are single family homes in an HUD, not a PUD, so we are not even covered under the IL Condo Act. Only the Not for Profit.
Kirk...at present, no one has the ability to vote for a candidate by mail. Ballots are only available at the meeting, and as candidates are not disclosed until the meeting itself, no one can form a directed proxy. Just a general proxy. Bio sheets and a very brief 'why I should be on the board' is included. At this last meeting no one was able to even ask questions of the candidates!! By IL law, we can vote by mail, but we need to formally adopt it.
I agree...people are uninformed and many are happy to be that way (especially in our HOA). However, we also have a number of owners who express their opinions quietly behind the scenes. They don't attend meetings because of the antics that occur there. But if they were able to vote from their homes, in theoretical safety, things might be different.
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/08/2008 8:12 PM |
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Check you state not-for-profit act.
Voting by ballot and even a mail-in ballot might be just something the board can institute.
This may not be as complicated as it seems.
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/09/2008 5:52 AM |
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| Actually they must check their gov. docs. If voting procedures are outlined in the bylaws, then the bylaws need to be amended. Many assn's only require a vote of the board to amend the bylaws. However, if the voting procedures are outlined in the CCRs (recently we've learned that is the case in some assn's), then the CCRs need to be amended and we all know this requires the members vote and usually a high % of members. |
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LisaS
(Illinois)
Posts:339
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| 10/10/2008 8:07 AM |
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Like I stated a number of times, we do not have bylaws. I also stated that we need 2/3 of members to vote to enact bylaws even if the Board finally wrote them.
The Not for Profit does allow for voting by mail (which FYI would include the ability to vote to change CCR's or create bylaws thereby increasing the chance of being able to pass a change).
I have now approached the Board to utilize voting by mail. We'll see.
Thanks.
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 10/10/2008 9:45 AM |
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Lisa,
If your state's nonprofit corp laws allow mail-in ballots then your assn can use this method w/o having to amend your CCRs. Your gov. docs do NOT need to be amended each time a state law trumps what they say. All the board needs to do is justify their actions by citing the applicable state law. Most assn's would have a very difficult time amending their docs solely for the purpose of coinciding with state law. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2117
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| 10/10/2008 2:43 PM |
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Lisa, ADDING the option of mail-in ballots will enhance your voting options and I can't imagine why anyone would object.
What do you think?
Our Board did not try to list EVERY voting option in the bylaws - it simply states that the Board can decide voting procedures. That allows them to accept email, write-in and even text IF they want to. (so far they have not, but with the young homeowners coming in, texting is next!)
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