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GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:

What is your association's experience with a tightening economy? Has your association made any expense cuts? Are homeowners expecting more for their money? Is your association finding that more homeowners are not able to afford to maintain their units up to "standards?"

What do you do if a homeowner says they can't afford to maintain their unit?
    But he says with a tight economy, more and more homeowners can't afford to do improvements demanded by their HOAs. Conversely, he said homeowners are more frequently upset with their HOAs as they expect more done in exchange for their monthly or annual dues.

    "So I think you're seeing expectations on both sides that aren't being met," Payne said.


http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/hoa.lawsuit.paint.2.825037.html
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
We're wrestling with these questions right now and I hope your thread stays up a while, because all of us need to exchange ideas on how to cut the budget and collect delinquencies.

Regarding the budget - we're working on it now and have changed lawn services companies. Happily, they've done work for other organizations which we've seen and like, so hopefully things will go well in that regard.

We're still trying to get residents to provide email addresses so we save money on printing and postage. Right now, it goes to all the residents (owner-occupant, tenant) as well as off-site owners, but I'm considering suggesting that we give the tenants a quarterly flyer with basic information, such as the start and end dates of the swimming pool season and limit the newsletter (with the minutes and budget reports) to the homeowners only.

We had begun thinking about sending some of our delinquent accounts to another law firm that might give us more "bang' for the buck, but that got pushed aside because other things popped up. We have begun looking at this again, especially since we don't have to make a decision about retaining the current one until next spring. I would like to keep him for most of our other work, but I also think we need a firm with more resources.

As for maintaining the unit, there are a few people we've had to discuss exterior problems with - mostly falling down fences and the occassional cardboard in the storm down window, but that hasn't been a big issue.

Now as far as the "I can't afford the fees" statement, we've told people over and over they can work out payment plans with the management company. Our most recent newsletter also published the website and toll free number of the Indiana Foreclosure Prevention Network, and we encouraged people near the brink to call to see if they can get help - and begin bringing their accounts current. Now, it's up to them - if they do nothing, we have no choice but to pursue them and unfortunately, some many have to decide if they can still afford the house. I don't want to see anyone lose their home, but our situation is getting dire and we may have to accept the fact that some folks are going to get lost.

From time to time our homeowners complain about fees - I haven't heard a lot of that lately because we have been able to make some long delayed improvements (the 2006 hailstorm brought us new roofs and some siding, thanks to our insurance, so that turned out to be a blessing in disguise). We also repaved a street last year and parking lots off another street this year. Sadly, our delinquencies have gone way up and despite what two of my fellow board members say, I fear we have no choice but to stick a significant fee increase for next year. This will come with lots and lots of information to the homeowners explaining the hard reality of things - if they want lots of services for little costs, they need to convince their neighbors to pay their fair share.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Our delinquencies are hovering at 5 percent or so. As far as collections go,if the owners do not have the money in the first place, it makes little sense to turn it over to a collection firm or lawyer. Liens are being filed, however.

I have a meeting on September 30th at the Statehouse to discuss the next steps in legislation. I am going to propose a bill that requires banks to pay association fees if a home goes into foreclosure. It may take two or three sessions to pass, but the timing is perfect.

Does it make sense to suspend additions to a currently over funded reserve fund in times like these?
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Quote:
Does it make sense to suspend additions to a currently over funded reserve fund in times like these?

I think it makes perfect sense. My gut feeling is that you should do everything you can to work with owners. One can take the position that "they shouldn't have bought what they can't afford." But it isn't always that simple. And even if it were, it wouldn't solve the problem.

Quite honestly, I think one of the government's actions needs to be to force many of the ARMs to be fixed at some reasonable rate. The problem is I don't know what should be considered reasonable. But from what I keep reading that would help a lot. I keep reading about people who are squeezed when the ARM starts moving up. And many of the people simply can not refinance now.

I think it is a hard situation. And I am no sure that it is always best to foreclose. If houses are not selling, then it would seem preferable to have an owner in the home over foreclosing for lack of dues. And if you foreclose you still don't get the dues since most of the value is in the loan.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I agree entirely, Kirk. An occupied home is far better than one that is empty and unmaintained because it is owned by a bank.

Here the main problem has been layoffs from high paying salaried jobs as the economy has turned south. It is not a question of people buying more than they can afford (or adjustable rate mortgages), it is a question of loss of income.

Our association has no intention of foreclosing for unpaid assessments. We will just suck it up and cut back expenses. But I realize that is not so easy in a condo building or community with a high level of amenities.

I have also heard talk of a nationwide one year moratorium on mortgage foreclosures to help stabilize the real estate market.

Despite what others seem to want to do, I am going to do all I can to be a good neighbor, even if it takes bending some rules.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
So because I intend to live here until I croak; I can stop paying my assessment and just pay my mortgage. Sure the BOD can stop me from using the pool but due to health issues I can't use it anyway. And while the HOA can lien me, I don't really have to worry about it, I can just let my kids worry about it after I'm gone.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
George, while you're at it, I think it would also be nice if homeowners had the option of including the assessment as part of the mortgage payment. Mortgage payments go up and down anyway because of changes in property taxes, so why not include the assessment? Since the mortgage company is going to get its money first in a foreclosure, this would be a good way to ensure the HOA isnt left holding the bag.

Let us know if/when this bill is proposed - I would like to sit down with my legislators to discuss the matter

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 09/25/2008 10:07 PM
So because I intend to live here until I croak; I can stop paying my assessment and just pay my mortgage. Sure the BOD can stop me from using the pool but due to health issues I can't use it anyway. And while the HOA can lien me, I don't really have to worry about it, I can just let my kids worry about it after I'm gone.

Glen - the fallacy to your plan is that the HOA can choose to foreclose the lien. Will require lawsuit, but certainly do-able.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnO6 on 09/26/2008 6:24 AM
Posted By GlenL on 09/25/2008 10:07 PM
So because I intend to live here until I croak; I can stop paying my assessment and just pay my mortgage. Sure the BOD can stop me from using the pool but due to health issues I can't use it anyway. And while the HOA can lien me, I don't really have to worry about it, I can just let my kids worry about it after I'm gone.


Glen - the fallacy to your plan is that the HOA can choose to foreclose the lien. Will require lawsuit, but certainly do-able.

John I was responding to George and Kirk's position just to lien and not take it further in these trying economic times by taking it to an absurd extreme to make a point. We had someone post here recently that their Association was $40,000 in the hole from unpaid assessments. At what point do you say enough is enough, pay up or get out?

No one I know relishes having to take action that could result in someone losing their home but unfortunately sometimes that is exactly what needs to happen. While I think most BOD's are more than willing to work with H/O that have a problem and should be, they are not nor should they act as a charity. It is human nature to assume that Joe or Jane Doe down the block has the same values as you do and if they had the money they would be more than willing to pay their assessments.

But it is a sad fact of life is that a certain percentage of people are takers and users and if they get the message that they can take advantage of you they will. We often read posts here from H/O alleging discrimination on violations. When you finally do have to foreclose on someone, what do you think the judge will do if they can point out all the people you've given a free ride to? The HOA should have a defined collection policy and follow it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Glen is using a reductio ad adusrdum (reduced to the absurd)argument in an effort to show a fallacy in my post. It is a legitimate form of logic and argument.

Of course, the problem comes with the notion of reasonableness. Neighborliness does not mean ignoring a deliberate failure to pay assessments (rather than a short term problem with personal finances). Nor does it mean allowing unpaid assessments to become excessive.

I do agree that, as part of policy governance, there needs to be a defined, written and published collection policy.

Equally, I believe that a critical function of a board is the ability to make exceptions to policies and bend rules as circumstances dictate. Otherwise, boards become robotic automatons, exercising no judgment.

At some point, even a reasonable neighbor would say that a lien must be acted upon. But I also believe that, despite a collection policy, it is unwise to foreclose on a property if there is a reasonable expectation that the unpaid assessments will be paid once the debtor returns to financial health.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Indeed they are - and that's why our community has no choice, but to make an effort to collect. Mostly, we've used liens and lawsuits because once upon a time, everyone ran towards bankrutpcy court. When the rules changed in 2005, we didn't see so much of that, but then we began seeing all of the mortgage company foreclosures. As you know, when the mortgage company moves in first, there's very little that can be done because they'll get their money before anyone, so all you can do is hope the house gets sold quickly to someone who will be responsible and pay.

In the meantime, you have to run after the bank to pay the fees that began accumulating when it took over the home (and some of you know how difficult THAT is). And now, there seems to be a reduction in the number of mortgage companies foreclosing on people because they already have too many homes they can't sell.

I understand what George is saying about being a servant leader and ultimately a good board member recognizes it's not all about him or her - you have to do your best to make decisions that will benefit everyone. Sometimes those decisions won't be popular and sometimes you may be wrong, so the best you can do is get as much information as you can, consider all options, make your decision and run with it. If you do notice an error, stop and change course as soon as you can, admit when you're wrong and keep going.

Nonetheless, the bills still have to be paid and we've told our homeowners it's not fair for everyone else to dig deeper and pay when others don't. I'm more willing to work with people who will at least come forward and explain their situation, but I'm not a psychic - if you don't tell me what's what and still don't pay, I will assume you're a deadbeat and go on from there. If I, as a board member don't do my job, I could be sued for breach of duty or something - and I'm not going to be the one left without a chair when the music stops.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I think many people miss the whole thing with HOA foreclosure. In the vast majority of cases, you are counting on the owner coming up with the money from somewhere. If the owner can not come up with the money, then the HOA sells the house. The problem now is that who wants to buy a house for the amount owed to the bank and HOA? Because the bank is still first in line and has the right (and probably will) call the note.

In this case the HOA then buys the property for the amount owed. They then hold onto the property and wait for the bank to foreclose. And they then sit and wait for the bank to sell the property. Now a year (and a couple thousand dollars of legal fees later), then hope the new owners will start paying their dues.

You can sit and say how nobody will pay their dues. And in fact, that could happen. But what are the options? If the owners truly can't pay, then you are between the rock and hard place. You won't get paid either way. So what is the best option?

This is why it takes thought to deal with the problem. There is no easy solution to rising delinquencies. I think it might be high time to get off the high horse and call the owner looking for some partial payments.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Kirk, in most cases the HOA is not going to recover the missed assessments. That is not the point of foreclosing. The point is to get the deadbeats out and someone responsible in who will pay.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I agree with Kirk and Sheila. This is about wisdom, judgment, reasonableness, and making good decisions and doing everything you can first to work things out with the homeowner facing tough times. There are times which the specific letter of rules and regulations and declarations must be overlooked. Rules need to be bent for the best interest of all.

I apparently have a higher opinion of my neighbors and humankind than does Glen. Foreclosure should only be considered as final option, after all others have been exhausted. And at some point, as I wrote earlier, it may be the path that must be taken.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
The bylaws may NOT allow the board to be "philanthropic" or even sympathetic during these difficult times. If the rules say the board "may" file leins or foreclose, then it has the option. Otherwise, if there is a hard, lock-step procedure, then it has no choice than to carry out its own rules.

Tough call.

But in 5 years, what will the then-current board think of the decisions made by the now-current board?

First and foremost is the continuity of the corporation. That's the board's main job. Financial protection of the Association is the main responsiblity.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
First and foremost is the continuity of the corporation. That's the board's main job. Financial protection of the Association is the main responsiblity.
Folks, I hope nobody here (other than the poster) accepts this notion. We have had this discussion before. This point of view is simply and utterly, and may I say absurdly, incorrect. The duty and responsibility of the board of any corporations is first, foremost and always to look after the best interests of the members/shareholders.

I know of no competent legal or scholarly authority that would support or even condone such uber alis kind of incorrect thinking. It saddens me to consider that such wrong-headed, unsupportable thinking would have any currency in this discussion forum.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
You are entitled to your opinion, George, as long as you do it kindly.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Hmm, glad to say that I don't have the ability to simply dismiss people as deadbeats so easily.

Second, your first duty is to the neighborhood, not the association. The association exists for the sole benefit of the neighborhood (and people therein).

But this isn't about philanthropy anyway. It can be about the best use of the limited resources. Let us take a simple look at the facts:

In our current system my HOA spends three times as much in foreclosure as the assessments alone would bring in.

I have yet to see a letter that would give a person reason to believe that payments could be initiated. And many on this forum say that the HOA shouldn't accept partial payments.

In Texas the original owner retains the right of redemption for 6 months. As such, in the event there isn't a mortgage the property still will not be stable until such has happened.

More often then not, the mortgage on the land will be enough so as to prevent a real buyer from interest in the property.

Thus I believe that HOA foreclosure is following one of two ideas:
1) Scare them into getting funds from relatives if they can.
2) Kick them out and hope the bank sells to someone who will pay.

But since neither of these is guaranteed to work, I think it is a bad idea.

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