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TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/14/2008 11:29 AM
We currently allow neighbors a 2 feet space around their garages and homes to mulch and plant flowers/shrubs under 2 feet without permission. After this guideline was changed I saw in our decs that - the side of my neighbors garage that sits next to my carpad is actually my limited common area meant for my exclusive use, and this is so forth throughout the community, this is about 6 feet of green space. Decs trump R&R's so we need to amend that. Side note - I am disappointed that our PM/fellow BOD did not pick up on this before sending it to the community. I should of caught it as it was my idea, anyway.................. My neighbor and fellow BOD wants to put 3 feet of pea gravel vs. mulch around her house. There is 12 feet between our homes. In the pea gravel she wants to plant bushes and border the pea gravel with a brick type landscaping rock. Not sure what they are called. This would be the first time we have had to ponder approval of pea gravel, I do not want it at all for any home. We are really too close to each other. My arguing points would be: it is rock, our kids play around our homes, while I watch mine she does not watch hers, her 8 year old is too watch her 2 year old at times and I know the kids will get into it. It will get in the grass and the mowers will hit it and may cause damage. It will affect the drainage of water - and I feel at the area that is mine - standing water will increase. This is a very uncomfortable situation as she is my neighbor, friend and fellow Director. We have some BOD who just approve without taking things into consideration, but I really try to look at angles when I approve something especially if it is for a first time. We will discuss this at our next meeting - she states to the BOD her kids will not get into the rock, they will and she does not know that because she does not watch them. I feel it is irresponsible of some BOD to just approve without any apparent consideration and think this will come down to a debate at the meeting. Another BOD is a neighbor directly across from me, she is voting no for some of the same reasons as me. As we know the truth about the kids, because we live by this BOD. I don't want this to be a huge debate, but feel the other BOD's should consider all things before placing their vote. Aside from the kids, I don't want this around our community at all, I don't agree for us it is very visually enhancing. How can I argue my points, if need be, without offending this homeowner? What do the rest of you think of peagravel for this situation? Is there some outstanding argument for this that I could use?

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

09/14/2008 12:12 PM
Can I cut to the main issue: ?? Are you saying that your neighbor is going to ask for an exemption, because she wants a 3 ft. barrier all around her house and garage? And the docs. say 2 ft.?

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

09/14/2008 12:14 PM
Or are you saying that the main issue is pea gravel vs. mulch?

BonnieE
(Illinois)

Posts:168

09/14/2008 12:40 PM
Hi Tamara, Here is some info re mulch – organic such as bark vs. gravel. There is info on the web – such as from Dept. of Agriculture or local university extensions. Base your argument on the benefits of mulch vs. the negatives of gravel. This would be for the Midwestern climate/geography. Please see below. As for kids getting into gravel/getting it into grass/etc. issue – rather than use this as part of your case, provide a case based in terms of a heavy rain washing it into the grass or snow removal operation getting it into grass. Gravel can damage mowers, and can be a hazard if picked up and thrown by mower. You could also bring copies of one or more fact sheets. I did this with our Board who didn’t want to spend $$ on mulch. Mulching is now planned for in our budget and done on a regular basis. From (a portion of their fact sheet): http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/FEATURE/backyard/mulching.html Mulching Mulching enriches and protects soil, helping provide a better growing environment. In Your Backyard Mulching is one of the simplest and most beneficial practices you can use in the garden. Mulch is simply a protective layer of a material that is spread on top of the soil. Mulches can either be organic -- such as grass clippings, straw, bark chips, and similar materials -- or inorganic -- such as stones, brick chips, and plastic. Both organic and inorganic mulches have numerous benefits. ________________________________________ Mulch • Protects the soil from erosion • Reduces compaction from the impact of heavy rains • Conserves moisture, reducing the need for frequent waterings • Maintains a more even soil temperature • Prevents weed growth • Keeps fruits and vegetables clean • Keeps feet clean, allowing access to garden even when damp • Provides a "finished" look to the garden Organic mulches also improve the condition of the soil. As these mulches slowly decompose, they provide organic matter which helps keep the soil loose. This improves root growth, increases the infiltration of water, and also improves the water-holding capacity of the soil. Organic matter is a source of plant nutrients and provides an ideal environment for earthworms and other beneficial soil organisms. While inorganic mulches have their place in certain landscapes, they lack the soil improving properties of organic mulches. Inorganic mulches, because of their permanence, may be difficult to remove if you decide to change your garden plans at a later date. Therefore, this tip sheet is limited to the use of organic mulches. Also see: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=LawnGarden/mulch.html Brick or Stone offers a neat appearance but may not blend with every landscape design. They offer some weed control. Brick and stone (especially lighter shades) will reflect heat back up towards plants, which may be harmful. This mulch is certainly long lasting. Be careful — if pieces are strewn into the lawn, they can become potential hazards when mowing. Good luck! Bonnie

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/14/2008 5:12 PM
Tamara, As a Master Gardener, we are urged to inform everyone about the conservation of water. MULCH is the favorite option for beds because of it's water conservation properties. In this day of water shortages, there is no question as to which serves mankind better. Everyone--FYI.. Studies by U. of Co and several other States. "Over 50% of all water usage is on lawns and landscaping."

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/14/2008 7:20 PM
Thanks ALL! Susan, yes and yes. Of course you give come people an inch and they want to take a mile. In defense of what she wants it is fair for me to include, our homes, mine and hers, have about a foot of cement overhang from when they poured our slabs. In this area is is hard to grow anything, even grass. However, that can be broken off or the area can be built up to promote growth of bushes etc......without having to ask for an additional foot of what we allow.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

09/15/2008 6:57 AM
You can also talk about kids, but not her own. Here is the simple fact: Kids will get into pea gravel. It need not be her kids. It could be kids from the next neighborhood. It could be the kids who have not yet moved in. At some point a kid will get into pea gravel if it is there to get into. Also, if landscape fabric is not used, then the gravel will start its migration the day it is placed. Over time the dirt around there will become saturated with pea gravel. Then the gravel will work its way into the yard. You will have pea gravel embedded in dirt quite a ways from where it started. If she is looking for a more permanent solution then organic mulch, then I would recommend landscape fabric, and the newer rubber mulch. From the street you won't be able to tell the difference. Even up close, much of it looks real. At any rate, any inorganic mulch needs to have landscape fabric under it to keep it from going into the dirt.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

09/16/2008 7:00 AM
Posted By KirkW1 on 09/15/2008 6:57 AM You can also talk about kids, but not her own. Here is the simple fact: Kids will get into pea gravel. So will cats. . .

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

09/16/2008 7:07 AM
Tamara, Have you looked into alternatives, such as decorative stone? There are some really handsome alternatives to pea gravel. As usual, I tend (oops, bad word--may be misinterpreted) to agree with Kirk. By the way, I am all in favor of rubber mulch-- here's a link to explore (from Hoosierland, of course (the home of used tires): http://www.rmp-ind.com/

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 8:19 AM
I did ask her if she had any alternatives if the pea gravel was shot down, she said no. Because of a designer flaw our siding on our homes can sit just inches off the ground making a way for damage to our siding with the weedwackers used by the lawn company. This is why we allow mulching around the homes, to help with our bids and help the homeowners not have to go through the stress of getting their siding replaced continually. People have really done some nice things as well with this allowance.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

09/16/2008 8:27 AM
Posted By TamaraW on 09/16/2008 8:19 AM I did ask her if she had any alternatives if the pea gravel was shot down, she said no. Because of a designer flaw our siding on our homes can sit just inches off the ground making a way for damage to our siding with the weedwackers used by the lawn company. This is why we allow mulching around the homes, to help with our bids and help the homeowners not have to go through the stress of getting their siding replaced continually. People have really done some nice things as well with this allowance. Something tells me that common sense ought to rule the day on this problem. It will be seen, however, if your fellow board members and the neighbors have any. For all the reasons posted here, I do not like the pea gravel option.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/16/2008 8:31 AM
George and Tamara, As I posted earlier, environment studies encouraging natural products for our home use. Below is just one of many written articles on the use of rubber mulch. If you don't want to use real mulch, the stones are at least not harmful to us and the environment "In some states rubber tires are a "Hazardous Waste" and in other states they are a "Special Waste". Whichever the case - one has to get a permit to dispose of rubber tires and there is a cost associated with that disposal. It is these very same rubber tires that are being cut up and sold to people as "mulch". Why is this a serious problem? The rubber mulch has an excess amount of zinc - and the excess zinc stunts the growth of plants. See North Carolina's Department of Agricultural's study on rubber mulch -http://www.ncagr.com/agronomi/pdffiles/rubber.pdf There is the potential for ground water contamination from the chemicals in the ground up rubber tire mulch. For people on residential wells, this is particularly worrisome. If the rubber mulch is used on vegetable gardens there is the possibility that the plants will uptake the chemicals found in the used tire mulch. Chemicals found in rubber tires are: Benzene Carcinogen, Developmental Toxicant, Reproductive Toxicant Phtalates Suspected Developmental Toxicant, Endocrine Toxicant, Reproductive Toxicant PAHs Suspected Cardiovascular or Blood Toxicant, Gastrointestinal or Liver Toxicant, Reproductive Toxicant ,Respiratory Toxicant, Maganese Gastrointestinal or liver toxicants Carbon Black Carcinogen Latex Causes allergic reactions in some people Benzothiazole: Skin and eye irritation, harmful if swallowed. There is no available data on cancer, mutagenic toxicity, teratogenic toxicity, or developmental toxicity. Butylated hydroxyanisole: Recognized carcinogen, suspected endocrine toxicant, gastrointestinal toxicant, immunotoxicant (adverse effects on the immune system), neurotoxicant (adverse effects on the nervous system), skin and sense-organ toxicant. There is no available data on cancer, mutagenic toxicity, teratogenic toxicity, or developmental toxicity. n-hexadecane: Severe irritant based on human and animal studies. There is no available data on cancer, mutagenic toxicity, teratogenic toxicity, or developmental toxicity. 4-(t-octyl) phenol: Corrosive and destructive to mucous membranes. There is no available data on cancer, mutagenic toxicity, teratogenic toxicity, or developmental toxicity. Zinc: There is a very large amount of zinc that is added in the manufacturing of tires and therefore there is a great deal of zinc. The companies producing and selling this product do not explain where the rubber mulch comes from or the dangers

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 8:36 AM
Donna, we don't use rubber mulch here in our community. Just regular ole tree mulch.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/16/2008 8:43 AM
Tamara, Good healthy practice. It was mainly for georges information because he stated that he was all in favor of using rubber mulch.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

09/16/2008 8:45 AM
Let's not get off on a different track here. I would not use rubber mulch for vegetable gardening, but I don't think that is what is being proposed here. I still prefer natural materials, but rubber mulch has its uses. The EPA has a long list of research reports and articles on the use of rubber mulch. "Ground Tire Rubber (GTR) is a non-hazardous, filled hydrocarbon polymer and is considered to be non-toxic, non-metallic and principally organic, carbon based material. EPA's Compliance Monitoring Section states that rubber added to the soil is not hazardous. It is "inert and biodegradable, but won't break down for 25+ years." The environmental issues are summarized here: http://www.rmp-ind.com/environmental1.html with citations for more information.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/16/2008 8:51 AM
George, You can argue until the sun sets on this and I will never agree. I did my research papers on Xeriscaping and Environmental Imact. The companies who make the stuff have not ever given any information to the consumer about the negativities of its use. And they never will. "It won't break down for 25+ years? How about 125 years. It gives off a noxious gas when it gets hot.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

09/16/2008 8:54 AM
Argue about what? I agree with you!

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 8:54 AM
Hmmmm....I wonder if that is how "stuff stores" get decorative rubber vegetables. Just plant a garden in rubber mulch! Well, I laughed............. Having a child with asthma/allergies we try to stay as natural as we can and this helps me make sure the play area on common grounds and such area's is kid friendly and as natural as can be.

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 9:38 AM
Can I please talk about the kids? Please, please............I want too take pictures and video and show the BOD that does not live around me what it is like "a day in the yard" of my limited common elements. Not only do they have kids those kids have cousins...........They don't watch them, they are not now and have managed to pull my kids basketball hoop all around. I sometimes feel I have to constantly watch their kids and cousins. When I have a 4 year old running around in my yard, I feel I have to watch him. I cannot imagine them having unsupervised pea gravel!

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/16/2008 10:31 AM
Tamara, The kids are a problem that we on this site, cannot help you with. It is a problem that goes on everywhere that you have kids and parents that don't supervise. Back to the mulch. Put in some stinky stuff that will discourage them from going near it. If stones are the preferred covering of choice, go with larger, not smooth rocks. Hey, they will throw that too so I don't have an answer other than an electric fence.

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 10:41 AM
LOL....we don't allow fences! I just voted no to the whole thing except the bushes. My emotions are getting in the way. We are friends and she is a fellow BOD who does alot for the community. Keep the allowance of two feet at two feet, just make it real simple, mulch bed means just that.........IF she were anyone else I would handle it this way. As President of the BOD I must keep my emotions out.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

09/16/2008 10:48 AM
Then bushes it shall be. I guess that she does not weed and there is where the problem started. If bushes are done right, you won't even see the weeds. As a footnote, I just installed an invisable fence for my two dogs. Problem is that you cannot require all of the neighborhood kids to wear a collar. :0

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

09/16/2008 11:01 AM
FWIW: I won't try to claim to be an expert on the topic, but I do have a large part of my yard done in xeriscape with bark mulch covering most of the area and pea-gravel pathways through the garden. Weeds are more likely to show up in the pathways than in the mulch. If she is really concerned about weeds, she can put weed cloth down first and the mulch on top of that. As for the kids, I agree with Donna. I don't think we can really help you much there. Unsupervised kids can be a problem anywhere. My solution has been to convince the neighbor's kids to help me pulling weeds and I reward them with fruit from my trees.

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/16/2008 11:10 AM
It is not a weed thing, it is just a personal visual appealing opinion. She likes that more than mulch. THE KIDS - that was just me venting and being silly. I know it is weird............. DONNA - you crack me up! As we speak some unsupervised kids just tore up a 12x12 inch area of her sod so they could make a house for their cars.......................No joke!

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/17/2008 7:03 AM
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/16/2008 8:27 AM Posted By TamaraW on 09/16/2008 8:19 AM I did ask her if she had any alternatives if the pea gravel was shot down, she said no. Because of a designer flaw our siding on our homes can sit just inches off the ground making a way for damage to our siding with the weedwackers used by the lawn company. This is why we allow mulching around the homes, to help with our bids and help the homeowners not have to go through the stress of getting their siding replaced continually. People have really done some nice things as well with this allowance. Something tells me that common sense ought to rule the day on this problem. It will be seen, however, if your fellow board members and the neighbors have any. For all the reasons posted here, I do not like the pea gravel option. The homeowner resubmitted for just around her house. I voted no, another is measuring some things around her home and one voted yes. Tell me if this is wrong - I called the yes vote and asked her if she realized what she approved. It appeared she just approved and did not read it in whole. She was surprised the homeowner was asking for three feet and this was clear in the application. I explained to her the downfalls of pea gravel's use for planting and the benefits of mulch. She admitted she approved only because the homeowner resubmitted the application without doing around the garage (doing around the garage would most affect this homeowner as the kids play down there and is across from her garage) and took her concern about the pea gravel negatively affecting her. I asked her what about my concerns of how it will negatively affect me by being next to my home. She did not think of that and thought this would be a good test home, to see if it worked. I asked her, well what about when it does not work........are we going to make her take it away? Do we want to do this for every home? Does she want this next to her home? Wouldn't it make our jobs easier to just allow what we just approved for everyone and stick by that? Two feet means two feet, mulch means mulch............period. She is now revising her vote. This makes me feel as though I am pushing my thoughts on people to sway votes. However, I look at it like this - I research all things before I approve them, I call landscapers, the city, the mayor whoever I need to take the whole neighborhood into consideration. I feel it is my volunteer position to educate myself in order to make the best decision for the neighborhood. I feel all Board members should and when they don't it infuriates me. Especially to approve it because the threat of the pea gravel to her siding was removed from the application..?? I spoke with our landscaper last night and he said with the rising costs of lawncare for next year due to gas prices and fertilizer going up, he would not allow anyone to do pea gravel because this gives the appearance of an increased liability for them and would raise our prices even more.

BonnieE
(Illinois)

Posts:168

09/17/2008 9:18 AM
Hi Tamara – based on your most recent post, it sounds like while you do your homework prior to voting on a HO request, other Board members may not. Do you discuss HO requests before the Board votes? We discuss HO requests prior to a vote. This helps because there will be someone who has some experience or familiarity, or who has done some research. This info is shared; the pros and cons get discussed – and hopefully a more informed vote is made. I do not mean that the intent is to get everyone to the same frame of mind – it’s just a sharing of info with discussion/debate. I agree that it is the Board member responsibility to be as informed as possible on an issue or request prior to making a decision. Do your governing docs allow for special meetings to be called to discuss things prior to a formal motion to vote at a Board meeting? Or, at the Board meeting, is time provided to discuss these things prior to the vote? Bonnie P.S. I still support use of the organic mulches.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

09/17/2008 9:25 AM
P... Tell me if this is wrong - I called the yes vote and asked her if she realized what she approved. It appeared she just approved and did not read it in whole. ... And this is precisely why such should be decided in a meeting. The idea is that you can have open debate. It is your right and duty to attempt to influence others to your way of thinking. You also have a duty to hear the other side out and give consideration. A debate shouldn't be about fighting or brow beating. It is about airing the reasons for your belief. Obviously the other member of the board had not thought about all the implications. And in a meeting you can discuss the implications. The thing is that sometimes when you discuss things openly more reasons for a particular position will come to light. Other times, your reasons may fade as you might not have caught everything. None of us is infallible. And you have a valid point concerning a test case. Is this a test you want to take? Can you tell this person we will test it out and decide if you can keep it next year? I don't think there is a blanket answer to that though some would always say not. I think some people can live with the idea that something is on the line and you can try it though they may end up pulling it out later. Also, don't focus on where her kids play. Focus on the nature of children and teens. Focus on the nature of adults even. Will cats consider this for leaving their poop? This is a valid question.

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

09/18/2008 1:14 PM
We NEED to (and are allowed to in our governing docs.) have open discussions between meetings on things such as this, if we did not (keeping in mind we are a Board of alllllllll women) our meeting would take a whole day. Seriously it would.

TamaraW
(Ohio)

Posts:180

10/03/2008 9:17 AM
I received a majority NO vote on this. Last night at a meeting I could not attend due to health reasons, the issue was brought up again and voted YES. I feel the BOD who submitted this and pushed the issue further took advantage of me not being there to debate it using the research I acquired. So now what?.............It was already voted no by majority. Do I just except the fact that I am going to have 3 feet of peagravel kids and cats are going to get into next to my home.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

10/03/2008 9:24 AM
That was pretty sneaky and underhanded. How can they justify bringing it for another vote after it had already failed?

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