forming a 5 unit HOA

Started by DietmarW • 15 replies • 1235 views

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DietmarW (California)
Posts: 21

Posted:

hello. i am owner of one of five condos in our building. we are some sort of self managed HOA, we all pay our dues and somehow the gardener shows up once in a while and all the bills seem to get paid for any community costs.

now i am reading all sorts of horror stories about HOA's but i would like to form a more legal HOA than what it is right now. one of the owners has three dishes on his part of the roof, thinks the community storage room is his and has the gardener do most of the work in his front yard, he parks in others parking spots...

i am the "director" of the board and want to establish some more set rules and bylaws and have a arbitration aggrement and want to also file/record this with the city.

right now if anything would go wrong i think we could be in trouble, so far we've been lucky... anyway

where do i find templates/samples of bylaws, cc&r's, arbitration agreement etc... ??? what is the best way to go about this without ending up with a 300 page bylaw book ?

thanks for your help

(this is in L.A. county/CAlifornia)

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Most of these documents should already exist and you should have received them when you closed on your unit. If you don't have them then I would go online to your County Recorders office to see if you can find them or visit the office in person. The Articles of Incorporation should be on file with the state and may also be available online. While it is an attorney's website I would visit http://www.davis-stirling.com/index.html for a breakdown of applicable California laws on the subject.

Just out of curiosity who do you pay your monthly assessment to?

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Dietmar,

Are you saying you already have an HOA but the rules are very loosely put together? Is this a voluntary HOA? Or are you saying you want to establish an HOA - a mandatory HOA. Do you have any governing documents at all -- articles of incorporation, bylaws, CCRs (covenants,conditions, & restrictions)? I'm a bit confused. :-(

DietmarW (California)
Posts: 21

Posted:

thanks guys for your replies.

to clarify....

- i bought this unit 10 years ago brand new
- there was never a legal formation of an HOA, nothing recored with the county
- there is NO bylaws or anything else
- 5 units total in the HOA
- dues are sent to one of the guys owning and living there, i guess he does somewhat take care of things and all bills are beeing paid, but there is no yearly statements etc...
- in other words i think i have been lucky that not really anything happened so far. but i want to take the neccasary steps to establish some rules
- like one guy has three dishes on the roof...
- we have been "selfmanaged" but in the last year the place has really been run down and i want some more order and cleaning done - by neutral outside sources...

does that answer the questions ? so i need some basic pre-made bylaws etc... maybe even a handbook "how to establish an HOA"

thanks for your input

NancyL4 (California)
Posts: 60

Posted:

You can download a booklet that has not only the Davis-Stirling act, but other requirements for associations from berding-weil.com.

Does you association have a name? If so, you can go to the CA secretary of state website and do a search on the name.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

I would encourage you to get things more in order. But I will let you know now that if the three dishes are each less then 1 meter in diameter you won't be able to restrict them. The FCC has preempted their restriction except in the event that you fall into very specific circumstances.

YoshimiZ1 (California)
Posts: 16

Posted:

I'm glad to see some of the people in California.

The condominium situation in California is a total mess, as far as I can see.

When DietmarW says about someone neutral meaning management company? In our situation, the management company making it far worse. She actually taking a role of dictator. Here's the source of the problem. In California, MC(management company) are not required to have ANY business license(please correct me if you have info saying otherwise). In the worst case, a person just came out of a jail spent time for bank robbery can start a business right away and nobody will find out. When the MC get to keep right board members (and it will) anything possible behind the closed door. They get to keep all the record, so manipulating things around money is so easy. Even if they get caught taking some money, nobody's there to force them to disclose all the record, only thing they have to tell you will be, "So, you have any proof?"

Another thing is there's no punishable law regarding condominium operation. You get hear a lot about Davis & Stirling act. It's a totally useless law with no penalty to offenders. All you can do is to hire an attorney which you won't need a law to tell you that.

Once a board member or MC decide to take a full control of the association and isolate the rest of the members, you'll have very little you can do, and we have nearly no legal help in Cali. They(law makers) say it's a private matter like "Tenant & landlord" dispute. It's hard to believe someone cheating ballot counts is a private matter but that's the situation in Cal for now.

It's too big a problem for each individual association trying to find a problem playing it by the rule while the opponent may not be playing it by the rule and very unpredictable. We have to speak up and get law makers aware of real problem we have. I would suggest everyone from California, start writing letters to law makers. Before that, we have to find out which lawmaker responsible for this but I haven't found any. If you know the right person, post his or her address here.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KirkW1 on 08/23/2008 6:56 PM
I would encourage you to get things more in order. But I will let you know now that if the three dishes are each less then 1 meter in diameter you won't be able to restrict them. The FCC has preempted their restriction except in the event that you fall into very specific circumstances.

Kirk,

You may have missed the point that this is a condo. In most condo's the roof is "owned" by the assn, so the dish anetennas CAN be restricted. The FCC ruling only applies to antennas installed wholly within the exclusive use area which is usually the balcony or patio.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By YoshimiZ1 on 08/23/2008 11:27 PM
I'm glad to see some of the people in California.

The condominium situation in California is a total mess, as far as I can see.

When DietmarW says about someone neutral meaning management company? In our situation, the management company making it far worse. She actually taking a role of dictator. Here's the source of the problem. In California, MC(management company) are not required to have ANY business license(please correct me if you have info saying otherwise). In the worst case, a person just came out of a jail spent time for bank robbery can start a business right away and nobody will find out. When the MC get to keep right board members (and it will) anything possible behind the closed door. They get to keep all the record, so manipulating things around money is so easy. Even if they get caught taking some money, nobody's there to force them to disclose all the record, only thing they have to tell you will be, "So, you have any proof?"

Another thing is there's no punishable law regarding condominium operation. You get hear a lot about Davis & Stirling act. It's a totally useless law with no penalty to offenders. All you can do is to hire an attorney which you won't need a law to tell you that.

Once a board member or MC decide to take a full control of the association and isolate the rest of the members, you'll have very little you can do, and we have nearly no legal help in Cali. They(law makers) say it's a private matter like "Tenant & landlord" dispute. It's hard to believe someone cheating ballot counts is a private matter but that's the situation in Cal for now.

It's too big a problem for each individual association trying to find a problem playing it by the rule while the opponent may not be playing it by the rule and very unpredictable. We have to speak up and get law makers aware of real problem we have. I would suggest everyone from California, start writing letters to law makers. Before that, we have to find out which lawmaker responsible for this but I haven't found any. If you know the right person, post his or her address here.

Yoshimi,

The problems you relate as being confined to CA are really the same problems being experienced in most states throughout the country. Only FL, AZ,and Montgomery CO, MD, to my knowledge, have attempted to correct this by providing for a state agency or a County Commission to hear and resolve member complaints. The only way this is going to be corrected is to get the ear of your State legislators and push for legislation.

The problems you mention about your PM have really been created and perpetrated by the BOD. The BOD should realize that THEY are in control and not the PM. The PM should be taking orders from the BOD, not the opposite. However, in many instances, the board lets the PM do as they wish because they really don't want to get involved. They're content to just sit back and relax and let someone else do the job! BTW, I know of no state that requires HOA property mgmt companys to be licensed. Another cause for legislation!

NancyL4 (California)
Posts: 60

Posted:

I posted this on another thread.

"There is a lot of pending CA legislation. Check our echo-ca.org. In fact, there is AB 567 sitting on our governor's desk right now which will establish an oversight organization for all HOA's. He has said that he will not sign anything until our state passes a budget. Anyway, the cost of AB 567 will be borne by the HOA's in our state. Guess what--increased assessments for all of us. GREAT! I want less government intervention in my life, not more."

There is also a major change to Davis-Stirling, AB 1921 which which has been shelved this year, but will will be re-introduced in 2009. It's a very long document (255 pages with more to be written) that requires more regulation of management companies.

If you live in CA, check out davis-stirling.com and berding-weil.com. There is very useful information on those websites. As a homeowner, you have more rights than you might be aware of.

DietmarW (California)
Posts: 21

Posted:

wow... my head is spinning... is there anything inbetween hiring a lawyer and setting up a proper HOA and pay big time $$$ and not doing anything ?

i just want to have things a little more organized and controlled. not necassarly by an outside management company, but a more established situation then what it is right now...

btw they way all this came up was that my lender for a HELOC on my rental property (that is what we are talking about here) told me they need a signed arbitration aggreement to close the loan... ( i was told that is one of the basic things of an HOA... we don't even have that...)

so what can i do that's financialy feesable ?

thanks !

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DietmarW on 08/25/2008 6:45 PM
wow... my head is spinning... is there anything inbetween hiring a lawyer and setting up a proper HOA and pay big time $$$ and not doing anything ?

i just want to have things a little more organized and controlled. not necassarly by an outside management company, but a more established situation then what it is right now...

btw they way all this came up was that my lender for a HELOC on my rental property (that is what we are talking about here) told me they need a signed arbitration aggreement to close the loan... ( i was told that is one of the basic things of an HOA... we don't even have that...)

so what can i do that's financialy feesable ?

thanks !

Dietmar,

First of all, having an HOA does not mean a mgmt is required to manage the assn. Many HOA are self-managed, meaning the BOD does all the work. With only 5 units, IMO, this would be the way to go. With a 5-member board each property owner would also be a board member which should drastically cut down any of the problems that traditionally arise with HOAs.

Secondly, I would strongly suggest thoroughly researching the Davis-Stirling Act as all CA HOAs are bound to adhere to these laws. Many jurisdictions have adopted laws requiring arbitration; I'm not sure what the requirements are in CA. However, if you don't have an HOA now, I don't know why the arbitration requirement would come into play.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Nancy, does the Davis-Sterling Act have a limitation on the size of the common interest development that it applies to? In other words, does a common interest development have to have, say, 3 units in order to be covered by the law?

NancyL4 (California)
Posts: 60

Posted:

George
It covers all sizes. I guess that would be from 2 to several thousand. The CLRC (California law revision commission) realizes that many of the provisions in Davis-Stirling should not be as strict for smaller associations. They will begin addressing issues once again in November 2009. I have written to them and was on their agenda seeking some relief for smaller associations. I will begin writing to them again in 2009.

YoshimiZ1 (California)
Posts: 16

Posted:

Hi NancyL4, I'd like to know who you are writing to. You should post it here. In fact, I think the committee of all kinds overseeing the HOA in each state should be posted here and be stickied.

As far as Davis & Stirling Act is concerned, it's a meaningless law as long as it ends with "you can sue the violator." As a result, our PMC(prperty management company) and the board members are doing everything opposite of what it says and make no apology for it. That includes, ballot count cheating, quorum cheating, not publishing candidates messages un-edited.

I'd like to know how many cases are actually taken to the court based on Davis & Stirling Act, probably not even 10 percent of actual violations. I also want to know any success stories based on Davis & Stirling Act. It will probably help a lot of people but I have never heard of even one case. Does that tell you something?

Quote:

Posted By NancyL4 on 08/26/2008 9:23 AM
George
It covers all sizes. I guess that would be from 2 to several thousand. The CLRC (California law revision commission) realizes that many of the provisions in Davis-Stirling should not be as strict for smaller associations. They will begin addressing issues once again in November 2009. I have written to them and was on their agenda seeking some relief for smaller associations. I will begin writing to them again in 2009.

YoshimiZ1 (California)
Posts: 16

Posted:

I bought a book called "Condominium bluebook", I visited the web site you mentioned, "davis-stirling.com" I even sent my Email to them. They were nice enough to send me a reply saying "You have a real bad situation. Hire an attorney." It didn't say, "We can help you, hire us." They probably don't make money by fighting but by selling the information. They probably don't have enough inquiry to make business fighting. That simply tells you effectiveness of the law.

When I received the election regulation plan based on D&S, I called and asked PMC, "What kind of penalty will be there for the violator?". PMC answered, ""Hire an attorney." They are very comfortable knowing nobody will hire the attorney.

I still don't know if there's a attorney to fight against the violators based on D&S act, not that I can afford them.

Quote:

Posted By NancyL4 on 08/24/2008 8:35 AM
I posted this on another thread.

" If you live in CA, check out davis-stirling.com and berding-weil.com. There is very useful information on those websites. As a homeowner, you have more rights than you might be aware of.

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