What is a street?

Kirk,

Def; of a street---Originally, a paved way or road; a public highway; now commonly, a thoroughfare in a city or village, bordered by dwellings or business houses.

Alley in my opinion is Not a street as it does not exactly fit this definition.

Your Cov says that it must not be visable from the street upon which the house sits and you say that it is not visable. Problem solved

I would NEVER use Wikipedia as my source for anything.

MicheleD - Your point is? Rather than offer criticism, provide some input. It's a lot more friendly than negativism.

Kirk,

If you have online access to your municipal code, more than likely, you will find a definition there that is used throughout the area.

If this issue gets down to the "definition" of a street, then I think there are some underlying issues in the association that need to be considered.

Here is the definitions from my municipal code:

Alley means and includes:
(1) A public highway, either paved or unpaved, usually unnamed and without sidewalks, and being of varying widths upon to thirty (30) feet in width; occasionally having sidewalks, but differing from a public street in that it either intersects or is located within a city square or other tract of land, which is bounded on all or any side by public streets and is a secondary way used primarily to afford access, ingress and egress for rear or side entrances to land or structures abutting thereon, although also open and used for vehicular and pedestrian traffic; provided, however, whenever any public alley has been or hereafter is designated as a street and given a name by ordinance, it shall be deemed to be a public street and shall be subject to the regulations applicable to streets, so long as such ordinance establishing it as a street remains in effect, but upon repeal thereof it shall resume its status of an alley.

Street or highway means and includes:
(1) The entire width between the property boundary lines of every way or public place, publicly maintained, when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of pedestrian and vehicular travel.
(2) In its broad meaning, as used in this Code, either "street" or "highway" shall include every part of any public way or place, however designated, and all portions within its confines between property lines, however called and when used also for other purposes, such as roadways, paths, sidewalks, esplanades, parkways, bridle paths, tree rows, grassplots or utility easements.

Nope. Have nothing to add other than providing MY opinion that Wikipedia is not a very reliable "source," and I would never use it to cite support for any position or definition.

Thanks for posting your opinion. I'm not advocating Wikipedia's reliability. I do however find the definitions to be interesting, and worth noting. When you have a position, perhaps that would be more appropriate to post than your opinion on Wikipedia. I find your lack of position to lend to the negativism, and irrelevance of your post. Seems that was your purpose, to knock something.

Michele,

I've heard that remark about Wikipedia many times; it's not a reliable source for accurate info. However, I always like to take a peek at what they have to say on a particular subject. If the info is the same as being given at other sources then I consider it to be valid. By other sources I mean gov. agencies; universities, etc. I do not mean joe blow's website!.

MicheleD - Here's where I think you really need to look at how non-relevant your position on Wikipedia was. I don't mean that in a bad way towards you, just that it's not relevant to discredit an opinion with an opinion. Donna provided her "opinion" on what an alley is, and an unsourced (unsupported) definition of street. Nothing wrong there. My thought was to google alley and street and to provide those sourced definitions. Lo and behold I found two (perhaps created by many) both from Wickipedia. I figured that subsequent to my post there would be other definitions of alley and street. And that the different definitions would lend themselves to KirkW1's association's definition. You did not and have not challenged any other posters opinion (other than mine) of the definitions (BrianB, DonnaS, MaryA). No bias on my part. You clearly have a problem with Wickipedia, all fine and good. But what we are seeing here is that alley and street need to be defined and accepted by the association. Hence, all definitions, popular and more traditional/scholarly have relevance.

I even wrote, "however the definition of alley and street are not factors here.". Which is significant and much more helpful to resolving the matter than getting caught up in the definition and source of words where no violation seems to exist in the first place.

MicheleD - I see no problem in accepting the definition of high school students. I bet they would be better than most, and sourced I'm sure rather than opinions. However, this post's question was, is the alley a street or not? Opens up the conversation for opinions or definitions, of which Wickipedia is more than acceptable to sight, and no less credible than any other opinion.

MicheleD - No, that's the last thing I need is another derogatory email or comment from you.

I'm not the one that can't let it go Michelle. You posted on another thread linking your gripe to this one, not me.

http://www.hoatalk.com/desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/smile.gif

And I thought I was over analyzing MY earlier post.

It would seem to me that the term "street level" was being used in a generic sense. They probalby should have gone with "ground level".

I think the intention was not to have someone properly enclose their trailor, and then have a neighbor complain that they could see it while driving by in their RV.

Lori

And I thought I was over analyzing MY earlier post.

It would seem to me that the term "street level" was being used in a generic sense. They probalby should have gone with "ground level".

I think the intention was not to have someone properly enclose their trailor, and then have a neighbor complain that they could see it while driving by in their RV.

Lori

The proper way to determine if something can be seen "from the street" is for an individual to stand in the middle of the street and look toward the home. If the vehicle, or whatever, can be seen, then it's in violation. We had an incident in my former assn where a member built a storage shed in his side yard. One board member complained it was not incompliance because he could see it from his front door. Their homes were on two different streets with the park in between. Well, I guess he could see the shed; his home was on the street on the other side of the park at a much higher elevation than the member's home! But the other board members listened to him and the member had to tear his shed down! I was only one vote on the board!

Most CCRs don't say anything about the proper way to describe visible. Most say "from any lot line".

Kirk,

I'm just a bit curious as to whether there's something underlying the issue of the actual definition of a street and an alley.

I'm trying to picture the situation you describe. What I'm getting is there is a house with a drive that opens to the "street" and also a drive that opens to an "alley." The trailer is parked on the "alley" drive and is not visible from the "street" because of fences shielding the trailer. On the surface, it sounds as if there is no violation of your covenants.

But, I think there must be something more. Are people complaining? Is the board concerned about whether the situation needs to be addressed, and if so, how to address it? Is there a desire from some folks to have the trailer removed from the community?

KirkW1 - Your original post asked what constitutes a street. But on re-read, and reading your exact sighting really what we are talking about is the term, "street level". A term that can apply to an alley. Honestly, how many of us have ever heard the term "alley level". The point is that when standing at "street level", whether you are on an alley or a street, the camper, trailer, etc. can't be viewable to the public.

Also note the inclusion of "and adjacent owners."

An owner whose property abuts in the side or rear, if he or she is "at street level" and can see the equipment (as opposed to, say, looking out their second floor window down into the adjacent property or standing on their deck which might be 18-inches or more off the ground), and he or she can see the item, then that item is clearly in violation.

I truly think your board has erred in trying to force this restriction to mean screened from view from a specific location in front of the house, when nowhere does it say "from the street" and the inclusion of "and adjacent owners" would contradict that anyway.

In my opinion.

This resident needs a violation notice if it can be see from any other adjacent owner's property when they are standing in their yard.

Mary, respectfully, I wholeheartedly disagree.

"street level" is an elevation, not a "location," I think we can come close to being in agreement on that.

However, "street level" is not bounded solely by being seen "FROM" the street in the front, merely "at street level."

So if my neighbor's backyard is "at street level," and mine is too, and he can see the thing from his backyard, in spite of my 6-foot fence, then the vehicle is in violation.

I don't have to go into my neighbor's front street and try to see if I can see it.

I only have to be at the same elevation, anywhere in his property that is adjacent to mine, and if the vehicle can be seen over my 6-foot fence, then it needs to be moved or further screened.

Again, it does not say "at street level in front of the adjacent property owner's home," which is entirely different.

The board member went back to the Developer to determine his intent, and his intent was that they NOT be allowed. So, it seems to me, his drafting of the document in this manner, "if fully screened from view from the public and adjacent Owners at street level by use of a standard six (6) foot fence," would tend to support my interpretation over yours, meaning at any spot on the adjacent owner's property that is "at street level," rather than "at street level from the street in front of the house." I do feel that adds wording and intent that isn't there and wasn't intended, just based on what the poster communicated to us.

I'm guessing they would, too.

Street level would be an elevation, there's no doubt in my mind about that, not a location, as in "in the street in front of the house." If that were the case, it would simply say "in the street" or "in the street in front of the house" or "in A street," but it would NOT say, "at street level."

It would be at GRADE with the GRADE of the street adjacent to where the property is.

I'm sure those guys with the little tripod things that measure distance and grade would be able to tell a homeowner what areas on their lot would be "street level" grade.

I know many homes along my particular street have backyards that slope down away from street level at some sort of X amount of drop per foot.

So if I stood in my back yard at the very rear of my backyard, I would not be able to see OVER my 6-foot fence.

I would, however, no longer be "at street level" but several feet BELOW street level.

So I would have to continue up my yard, towards my house until I reached a spot on my yard where I was standing at the SAME ELEVATION as the street that my house sits on is.

At that point, I would be able to actually see about 3 feet ABOVE my rear 6-foot privacy fence.

It also means that my neighbor, who abuts my backyard, while standing next to HIS fence, down into his yard probably 3 feet from MY yard, could not see into my yard above either his or my 6-foot privacy fence.

He, too, would also be about 3-feet BELOW STREET LEVEL of the street that HIS house sits on.

If he were to walk back up his yard, towards his house, the close he gets to his house, the closer to STREET LEVEL he gets, and the more of my yard, and what's in it, he can see.

Also, Lori, because the "ground level" can change on a lot, due to grading and whatnot, I can see them specifying "street level" as the grade at which the view could be seen. I say that because of the example above.

At "ground level" can vary in my lot from "street level" grade in the middle, to front of the lot, to way, WAY below "street level" as you get further away from my house in the backyard.

Specifying "street level" also prevents someone from saying they can see the item from their second floor window, or from a deck that might be about 2 feet off the ground.

The only grade/elevation that matters is that part of the property that is at grade with the street.

Mary, taking the "street level" elevation as a point in front of a house, is not the issue.

WHERE the elevation point to measure from is not that important. Once obtained, the elevation that it designates is what's important.

So if you are standing at any point on the property, front of a house, back of a house, side of a house, that particular point can be at, above, or below the elevation of street level.

If I'm standing in the rear of my house, and the position where I'm standing is AT STREET LEVEL, and I can see the neighbor's boat, RV, or trailer, above his or my 6-foot fence, he is in violation of the restriction.

The restriction is clearly meant to have a 360-degree visibility restriction. If on any property (at any point on that property) that is adjacent to a lot, whether an alley, street or neighbor's yard (front, back or side), and that point is "at street level," (elevation, not location), and the item can be seen above a 6-foot fence, then it is in violation.

This also falls in line with the Developer's intent that such items would not be parked or stored on the lot, unless in a garage, or screened in such a way that no person can see them.

OK, I believe that's where we differ. Based upon what Kirk's docs say: "...campers, camper trailers, boats and other watercraft, and watercraft trailers shall be parked only in enclosed garages or other areas, if fully screened from view from the public and adjacent Owners at street level by use of a standard six (6) foot fence.", I interpret it to mean it's also determined from the street level of the adjacent owner's property. To make the determination the way you suggest, the elevation would have to be known. Who would be able to do that? Only a surveyor, I would imagine. That's why my opinion is that the determination is made by standing at "street level" in front of the property of the owner with the objectional object and/or standing at street level in front of the adjacent owner's property. "Street level" is the middle of the street.

If you don't agree with this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. BTW, I think we may have bored Kirk! LOL

Michele,

You said: "I think you're right,though! He's probably groaning by now!"

And, that's why I won't make any more comments. I think you and I could probably go on with this for about another week! LOL

We are working on forming committee and possibly a web forum to work on revision of our design guidelines (which is where this rule is placed). We (the current Board) feel that if a trailer is only visible from the alley then it should be permissible. I have marked the rule for revision so that this intent will become the rule of the day.

There are other rule which we have identified for revision as well. While we appreciate what the developer has done, we feel that in some areas the rules don't match the nature of the neighborhood. I think in the end we all want to keep a nice looking neighborhood while not being overly rigid.

One thing that is become more and more clear is how tough it is to write a rule (or even standard) that works for every situation.