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DonaldM3
(South Carolina)

Posts:21

08/19/2008 1:51 PM
We are a community of 148 single family homes – a nice community IMHO. There is a problem, I feel with signage. A neighbor, not the friendliest of types, has put two “NO TRESPASSING” signs on his home, one on the front door and the other on the front of the home (standard sized signs that you could buy at any home supply store (red and black). They have been there for several months and when I complained to the MC a couple of months ago they told me that it was being worked on. I complained again last week but no response as of yet. Our docs say: “Sign Limitations. No sign of any kind, other than those installed by Declarant, the Association, or a Builder, may be displayed to public view on any Lot, except that one (1) sign with an area of not more than six (6) feet and of a design approved by Declarant may be displayed with the purpose of advertising the Lot for sale.” Besides violating our covenants, my problem is the poor ‘curb appeal’ this presents for our community and the adverse affect this probably has on homes that are for sale in the community. Should I back off and let the MC handle this at their pace or are there some actions I can/should take to expedite things?

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/19/2008 2:12 PM
Donald, If this sign is, in fact, in violation of a CCR restriction then the homeowner should receive a violation notice. Your thoughts that this sign has an effect on "curb appeal" and may have an adverse effect toward selling a neighboring home, IMO, is a bit far-fetched. Do you really think a "no trespassing" sign (somewhat similiar to a "no solicitors" sign) really has an effect on property values? In fact, so many of the CCR restrictions that are designed to enhance property values simply do not! We're all led to believe this bunk and many boards use it as a justification for passing even more ridiculous rules. Do clotheslines in a back yard lower property values? Do garage doors left open lower property values? Does washing your car, or changing the oil, in the driveway lower property values? Does a child's tricycle left on the front lawn lower property values? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

08/19/2008 2:17 PM
Sorry - but when I see that particular sign in a neighborhood of homes, I think one of two things: the owner is a paranoid nut or there IS a tresspassing problem in the neighborhood. In any case, either situation makes me uncomfortable.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

08/19/2008 2:19 PM
Donald - are you on the Board? If you are then you should be able to get the details from the MC. If not then it is doubtful that the MC will tell you more than that it is being worked on. You can ask a Board member for more info, but when it comes to things like enforcement they probably won't tell you anything either. Sometimes these things can take a while to get resolved. Homeowners want it done now, but if the person in violation does not want to cooperate it can be a long process. We have one property in our neighborhood where a renter has been parking a large construction trailer in the driveway on and off for almost a year. The property owner apparently felt that there was nothing that the HOA could do about it. After sending the friendly requests, demand letters, attorney demand letters, and finally court notices, we now have a judgment against the owner. If the trailer continues to show up, then it's back to court for contempt hearings. In all a long, drawn-out process.

DonaldM3
(South Carolina)

Posts:21

08/19/2008 2:43 PM
I don’t know, Mary, if a violation has been issued. I’m with Susan on this! If I was taken by a RE Agent to look at a nearby home, I’d feel somewhat uncomfortable with those signs and would probably cross that home from my list. That I am aware of, there is not a trespassing problem in out neighborhood. And you hit the nail Dwight, this fellow is not very cooperative. There have been other community issues that he has been difficult to deal with (according to a board member who has shared information with me). And no, I’m not on the BoD. Appreciate the comments!

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/19/2008 2:56 PM
Donald, A "no trespassing sign" to me is akin to a "no solicitors" sign. The homeowner doesn't want to be bothered with anyone who has not been invited to his home. Everyone has that right, don't they? And what qualifies as a "trespassing problem" as Susan mentioned? Are only members of your assn allowed into your community? All HOAs are considered "private", but, unless you're in a gated community, any one can walk into the community and not be considered as "trespassing". Regarding this particular h/o, IMO, the board should consider requiring him to remove the sign that's on the exterior of the house while allowing the sign on the door. The board should take the time to review the CCR restriction that says "no signs" and decide whether or not it should be amended. If your neighbor had a "welcome" sign on his door or on his house would you be complaining?

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:350

08/19/2008 3:04 PM
Don't back down. Keep up the pressure. Personally im my townhome association I just drove up and removed them. Maybe not legal but it worked..they are gone.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:350

08/19/2008 3:10 PM
Mary, Many of the things you mention do indeed lower property values. Personally a "no trespassing" sign would indicate to me that this is a dangerous area. Garage doors left open with all the junk people accumulate certainly does not enhance the view from the street. In addition, it shows that some owners have no consideration of their neighbors..not a place I'd like to live.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/19/2008 3:22 PM
Posted By EllenS1 on 08/19/2008 3:10 PM Mary, Many of the things you mention do indeed lower property values. Personally a "no trespassing" sign would indicate to me that this is a dangerous area. Garage doors left open with all the junk people accumulate certainly does not enhance the view from the street. In addition, it shows that some owners have no consideration of their neighbors..not a place I'd like to live. Ellen, Why does "no trespassing" denote danger to you? Garage doors left open do NOT lower property values -- just ask any real estate appraiser! Of course everyone is entitled to their views and if these things would prevent you from considering a particular neighborhood then so be it. Frankly, I've lived in non-HOA neighborhoods and don't recall open garage doors as being a big issue. I had an elderly neighbor who liked to sit out on the driveway and would keep his garage door open. I never thought that detracted from our neighborhood, which was, in fact, a very sought after neighborhood with very high property values. The point I was trying to get across is that oftentimes boards make rules in the guise of wanting to maintain or improve property values, when, in fact those rules have nothing whatsoever to do with proprety values.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

08/19/2008 3:32 PM
I gotta stand by Mary's observations her. I think she is absolutely right on target.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/19/2008 4:05 PM
Thx, George! As I said b/4, great minds think alike. LOL

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

08/19/2008 5:33 PM
Lets get back to the issue here and that is this owner has 2 illegal signs on his property. I reread the covenant posted and it says no signs except approved ones. The signs have to come down, period.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/19/2008 5:38 PM
First, if the PM said they are working on it, then you should only ask if it is still being worked on. It isn't like the PM has the ability to simply remove the sign. Nor can the PM have the owner arrested. It can take time to get a resolution to a covenant violation. As for it lowering property values, it all depends. If you live in the slums and are changing the oil in your drive that probably raises property values. But if you are in a neighborhood of multi million dollar homes and are out changing the oil it could indeed lower values. If there are armed people on the corner of every street, then a no trespassing sign would not affect values at all. But it might in other areas particularly if a person isn't sure of the neighborhood safety. Then again on an outhouse it might be quite the funny joke. At any rate you presumably chose to live in a neighborhood that prohibits signs. You don't like the look of them and don't want to see them. You have a right to band together and live in such a place. And you can take action against transgressors. But you can not forcibly remove the sign without taking the proper steps first.

DonaldM3
(South Carolina)

Posts:21

08/19/2008 5:57 PM
Thanks, Donna, for getting us back on target and for your simple and direct solution. I contributed to our drifting by adding my feelings to the discussion. I have to agree with Kirk and give the MC time to respond to my message and take it from there. Mary, why would you suggest that the board require the sign on the house be removed while the one on the door could stay? Aren’t both signs in violation of the CC&R’s according to what I stated in my opening question and statement? Don’t both signs have to be removed in order for the MC to close this issue/complaint?

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

08/19/2008 6:45 PM
Donald, I do think that you asked the right question about a sign on a door verses a sign on a lot. The covenant says NO signs unless, etc. basically a for sale sign. No sign of any kind, other than those installed by Declarant, the Association, or a Builder, may be displayed to public view on any Lot, except that one (1) sign with an area of not more than six (6) feet and of a design approved by Declarant may be displayed with the purpose of advertising the Lot for sale.”

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/20/2008 8:30 AM
Posted By DonaldM3 on 08/19/2008 5:57 PM Thanks, Donna, for getting us back on target and for your simple and direct solution. I contributed to our drifting by adding my feelings to the discussion. I have to agree with Kirk and give the MC time to respond to my message and take it from there. Mary, why would you suggest that the board require the sign on the house be removed while the one on the door could stay? Aren’t both signs in violation of the CC&R’s according to what I stated in my opening question and statement? Don’t both signs have to be removed in order for the MC to close this issue/complaint? Donald, I also suggested the board take the time to review the restrictions. Are "welcome" signs also prohibited? Does the restriction say flat out "no" signs? If I recall correctly there is an exception for "for sale" signs. IMO, this leaves the door open to other exceptions. Perhaps the board should adopt an interpretation to include some signs that are not objectional? Frankly, to me, "no trespassors" is akin to "no solicitors". A trespassor is not necessarily someone who wants to do bodily harm. It's only someone who comes onto private property w/o being invited. A solicitor could do bodily harm! I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder!

DonaldM3
(South Carolina)

Posts:21

08/20/2008 6:18 PM
Thank you Mary; let me respond to your question. No, “welcome” signs specifically are not prohibited; instead, all signs are prohibited, as indicated in my opening post, except those installed by the Declarant, the Association, or a builder and a ‘sale’ sign of a design approved by the Declarant. This essentially says that your suggested ‘welcome’ sign is not allowed and the ‘no trespassing’ sign(s) is/are also not allowed. I’d like to understand why you would suggest removing the NT sign on the house and let the one on the front door remain. I believe that both NT signs must be removed before the issue can be closed by the MC.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/21/2008 1:49 AM
I think what the board really needs to do is define what a sign is! I don't know what the developer's intent was in stating "no signs", except "for sale" signs are allowed, but I think it was more along the lines of advertisement signs. IMO, there are many types of signs that should be allowed -- signs indicating the presence of an alarm and welcome signs are two that come to mind. Then there are all types of cutsie lawn ornaments that might have a small sign on them -- "birds welcome here", "welcome to my garden", etc.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

08/21/2008 7:38 AM
Mary, that's why we ended up amending our sign restriction to allow for several other categories of signs besides the "for sale" of the lot only signs. Our new restriction allows for: Landscaping signs in landscaping beds (Nana's Garden, Honeybees Welcome here, that sort of thing) Security company signs (Protected by ATD Security Svcs type signs) Holiday signs specific to the current holiday (Happy Halloween, Merry Labor Day, whatever) Welcome/decorative signs for the front door Political signs (for the current election cycle with a time limitation) I think that's all. I don't have the amendment in front of me. Presenting this to the community in the form of an amendment, whereby they could vote up or down on each category, gives the community the opportunity to set their own acceptable standards.

KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:59

08/21/2008 7:49 AM
When the only description of a sign is a "for sale" sign, typically those are on a post or a wire frame. I feel that a "no trespassing" can be considered a notice that will help protect the homeowner against a civil suit, in the event that someone does step on their property.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

08/21/2008 7:54 AM
. . . a notice. . . in the form of a sign. How it's hung does not diminish it being a sign. Hmm...I wonder. If the homeowner grows certain color flowers in the front flower bed that, when in bloom spell out "No Trespassing," if he he puts fertilizer on the grass only in certain areas, whereby the darker grass spells out "No Trespassing," I wonder if that will pass muster? "A rose by any other name. . . can be a sign!"

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/21/2008 10:48 AM
Posted By SusanW1 on 08/19/2008 2:17 PM Sorry - but when I see that particular sign in a neighborhood of homes, I think one of two things: the owner is a paranoid nut or there IS a tresspassing problem in the neighborhood. In any case, either situation makes me uncomfortable. Let me chime in here...I have such a sign in my garage window. It was placed there because I have had my home vandalized and continue to have people trespassing on my property. I currently have 7 complaints with the police. I won't go into the specifics but suffice it to say some of the incidents are downright disgusting. It probably does violate the strict restriction about signs but so would the "beware of dog" signs that dot the neighborhood but aren't addressed or written up either. The police advised me to put the sign up so that when someone trespassed they could use that for the case. This happens even in the best of neigborhoods and is not all that uncommon. I've lived in a number of different communities in about 6 states and have experienced trespassing in every single state. People and especially kids now days just plain have no respect for others or their property. So, I wouldn't be so quick to say that the owner is "paranoid". I'm certainly not, I just don't want anybody I don't know or have invited to be on my property and I certainly don't ask that they vandalize my property out of boredom or some adrenaline rush it might give them.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/21/2008 10:49 AM
have = haven't invited

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/21/2008 12:20 PM
Steven, I agree with you and it's the point I was trying to make. I don't agree that a person who posts such a sign is "paranoid" or that such a sign is evidence of a high crime neighborhood or low class neighborhood. As I said several times b/4, to me it's no different than a "no solicitors" sign. The homeowner is sending the message that he doesn't want any uninvited "guests" on his property. Shouldn't we all have that right?

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

08/21/2008 12:42 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:20 PM Shouldn't we all have that right? Sure. Just move into a neighborhood that doesn't have a No Signs rule.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/21/2008 12:48 PM
Posted By DwightT on 08/21/2008 12:42 PM Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:20 PM Shouldn't we all have that right? Sure. Just move into a neighborhood that doesn't have a No Signs rule. Yeah, right! And, try finding a neighborhood that doesn't have an HOA, too.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

08/21/2008 12:57 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:48 PM Yeah, right! And, try finding a neighborhood that doesn't have an HOA, too. Not a problem. Just look for the neighborhoods with the junk cars in the front yards covered by 4-foot weeds.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/21/2008 1:01 PM
Posted By DwightT on 08/21/2008 12:57 PM Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:48 PM Yeah, right! And, try finding a neighborhood that doesn't have an HOA, too. Not a problem. Just look for the neighborhoods with the junk cars in the front yards covered by 4-foot weeds. Well, I have seen those neighborhoods! But not all non-HOA neighborhoods are like that. I've lived in non-HOA neighborhoods that are just as nice, and even nicer, than some HOA neighborhoods I've seen. It really depends upon the type of homeowners and the location of the neighborhood.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

08/21/2008 1:27 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 1:01 PM Posted By DwightT on 08/21/2008 12:57 PM Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:48 PM Yeah, right! And, try finding a neighborhood that doesn't have an HOA, too. Not a problem. Just look for the neighborhoods with the junk cars in the front yards covered by 4-foot weeds. Well, I have seen those neighborhoods! But not all non-HOA neighborhoods are like that. I've lived in non-HOA neighborhoods that are just as nice, and even nicer, than some HOA neighborhoods I've seen. It really depends upon the type of homeowners and the location of the neighborhood. Mary, only partially true. A non-HOA neighborhood can start out that way and manage for quite a few years without the so-called "riff-raff" moving in. However, there are many many non-HOA neighborhoods in cities all over the country that are what are now called "transitional" or "marginal" neighborhoods, simply because at some point in the history of the neighborhood, those one or two neighbors moved in who started parking their semi-cab in the driveway, their live-in mother-in-law's car in the yard, and/or many of the other "un-neighborly" things that many HOAs cover in their CC&Rs that are not necessarily restricted in non-HOA neighborhoods. It's that role of the dice, really, more than anything, that they don't get a neighbor like that move it that allows some non-HOA neighborhoods to be relatively problem free. Also, again, signs posted on the house or fence or in a window that tout either "No Trespassing," or "Beware of Dog," or "ADT Security Services Active" are STILL disallowed signage if your covenant says NO SIGNS EXCEPT for the ONE sign allowing the lot to be advertised For Sale. If you and your neighbors want those other "signs," then the right thing to do, in order to maintain the integrity of your documents, is to go ahead and make an AMENDMENT to the Signage restriction and/or create an R&R (if your docs allow you to do that in cases like this) and MAKE THEM LEGAL! (PS: There are still plenty of non-HOA neighborhoods here in Kentucky. Just not many "newer" neighborhoods!)

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

08/21/2008 1:45 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 1:01 PM Posted By DwightT on 08/21/2008 12:57 PM Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:48 PM Yeah, right! And, try finding a neighborhood that doesn't have an HOA, too. Not a problem. Just look for the neighborhoods with the junk cars in the front yards covered by 4-foot weeds. Well, I have seen those neighborhoods! But not all non-HOA neighborhoods are like that. I've lived in non-HOA neighborhoods that are just as nice, and even nicer, than some HOA neighborhoods I've seen. It really depends upon the type of homeowners and the location of the neighborhood. You only specified a non-HOA neighborhood. You didn't say anything about it being a NICE non-HOA neighborhood.

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