GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:705
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| 08/18/2008 12:59 AM |
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HOA says man's pickup is not classy enough
Stonebriar HOA board members changed its rules, allowing several luxury trucks, including the Cadillac Escalade, Chevy Avalanche, Honda Ridgeline and Lincoln Mark LT.
But most Ford, Dodge or Chevy pickups are still not allowed on driveways overnight.
Read the entire article:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080815_lj_stoler.4dc09d95.html |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2796
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| 08/18/2008 4:25 AM |
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George,
This is exactly the same type of case that my HOA went to court on. The HOA lost the case against the 2 Escalades, which we claimed were pickups and the owners claimed they were SUVs. I'll have to find the actual case name and number for ya'll to read. Cost?? About $60,000 which included their high profile attorney fees. |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/18/2008 6:53 AM |
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| Wow. and I thought our HOA was over regulated. This is insane. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2796
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| 08/18/2008 7:12 AM |
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Nicole,
The covenant states that NO pickup trucks shall be parked in the driveways other than service people doing service at that resident. We all had 3 car garages so there was not really a space issue for the trucks to be INSIDE of the garage. That was the Covenant. The 2 guys who challenged were owners of Cadillac Escalade EXTs which are pickups or SUVs depending on who classified them. The Judge said that they were SUVs, therefore they did not have to park in the garages but the Fords, Chevys and all other pickups did. That doesn't sound fair to me either but to change the cov to allow trucks outside met with very strong opinions against the change to allow them out. |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/18/2008 9:11 AM |
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| I was making a comment in regards to the original artical. |
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:41
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| 08/18/2008 9:44 AM |
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please define "pickup truck"
is it a truck used to make pickups?
if so, a plymouth voyager (classified by the DOT as a light truck) would also be included
look inside the driver's door frame for the DOT vehicle classification:
a passenger vehicle is not specifically defined but most SUVs (most crossovers excluded)are actually classed as light trucks
ps. my compact (passenger) Suzuki Aerio has a load capacity of 987 lbs, a (SUV) Ford Escape has 800 lbs
we HOA members all need to get real lives
read it and weep |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 08/18/2008 11:10 AM |
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This is not a case of definition. This is a case of the HOA decided that particular brands of pickups can park in the drive. Other brands can not.
As an interesting aside, I think this makes the third HOA story from Frisco TX to hit the national feeds. Not bad for a city that is mostly cow pasture.  |
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DonN
(Michigan)
Posts:237
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| 08/18/2008 11:24 AM |
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As with almost all of these situations, the answer depends upon what is in the CC&Rs.
Typically, the CC&Rs define what kind of vehicles can be parked, and further may define that certain types of equipment must be in garages. If there are no restrictions, there are no restrictions — as Yogi would say.
Also the CC&Rs must define what authority the Association, or its Board, has to issue rules and regulations. If no authority is assigned, then there is no authority.
Normally, CC&Rs are interpreted for free use of property with ambiguities resolved against the party seeking enforcement.
More information about the CC&Rs is needed. |
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Don Nordeen
Governance of Property Owners Associations
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JanM
(Texas)
Posts:142
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| 08/20/2008 2:37 PM |
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| I heard this story on the local radio yesterday. I think ppl should be able to drive and park whatever vehicle of their choosing. This is just getting way too ridiculous! |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2796
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| 08/20/2008 3:06 PM |
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Jan,
"I think PPL should be able to drive and park whatever vehicle of their choosing" Well, there are alot of things that I think that I or you should be able to do BUT when we live in a HOA with CC&Rs, we do what we are required to do or not to do. That's the nature of the beast(HOA) It is not for us to argue whether we want to or not. Trucks, pools, fences, house paint color,, the list could fill pages of things that we might not like. But it is our choice to live that way or not.
I am just amazed daily at some of the situations people get themselves into with their rules or their Boards. So either get with the program or get out. Change what can be changed or accept it as the norm. From reading this site for a year, I know that many States are lax with little or no Laws or Statutes and others might be too much involved with the running of HOAs in their States. I wish for a happy medium.
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 08/20/2008 4:33 PM |
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Posted By DonN on 08/18/2008 11:24 AM
As with almost all of these situations, the answer depends upon what is in the CC&Rs.
Typically, the CC&Rs define what kind of vehicles can be parked, and further may define that certain types of equipment must be in garages. If there are no restrictions, there are no restrictions — as Yogi would say.
Also the CC&Rs must define what authority the Association, or its Board, has to issue rules and regulations. If no authority is assigned, then there is no authority.
Normally, CC&Rs are interpreted for free use of property with ambiguities resolved against the party seeking enforcement.
More information about the CC&Rs is needed.
Don,
I would doubt very seriously the CCRs go so far as to state the make and model p/u that can be parked in the driveway! This is a classic example of a board made up of a bunch of snobs. To drive a Ford F-150 is "below their class" and not worthy of being seen parked in front of a home in their "upscale" community. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 08/20/2008 4:37 PM |
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Posted By DonnaS on 08/20/2008 3:06 PM
I am just amazed daily at some of the situations people get themselves into with their rules or their Boards. So either get with the program or get out. Change what can be changed or accept it as the norm. From reading this site for a year, I know that many States are lax with little or no Laws or Statutes and others might be too much involved with the running of HOAs in their States. I wish for a happy medium.
Donna,
I certainly agree with what you have said, but this case is much different. This is an example of selective enforcement. The board only allows the "high-end" p/u's to be parked on the driveway. Fords and Chevy's don't qualify as classy enough to be seen on a driveway in their upscale neighborhood! Apparently this is a new rule.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2796
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| 08/20/2008 4:43 PM |
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Mary,
My reply was for Jan. Remember my HOAs case against the Escallades was also them saying that we were "selectively enforcing" against them when there were other similar vehicle also parked out overnight like Honda Ridgelines and the Escalades twin brother, the Chevy Avalanche. Been thru this one and it was a losing cause. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 08/20/2008 4:56 PM |
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| Sorry! :-( |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 08/21/2008 2:31 PM |
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P...This is an example of selective enforcement. The board only allows the "high-end" p/u's to be parked on the driveway. Fords and Chevy's don't qualify as classy enough to be seen on a driveway in their upscale neighborhood! ...
I am not sure what level this is codified, but from the news story I got the impression that there was something in writing allowing certain brands of pickups to park out in view. I am familiar with the area and find that entirely believable.
The issue is that this man bought a pickup that looks very much like an "approved" model, but from Ford instead of Honda. And as such the BOD is taking issue with it. My feeling is that if you are to the point of either knowing vehicles well or looking for the emblem you have gone too far.
It just makes me want to go park an ugly car in the neighborhood. If the streets are public I could probably do so as long as it was moved every day or so. I don't live there so the covenants can't be used against me. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 08/22/2008 1:55 PM |
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| Sadly, this is what happens in many upscale neighborhoods. Some of the residents feel the need to flaunt their wealth and portray the image of being better than everyone else. I see it all the time where I live. Like I tell my grandchildren, just because someone lives in a fancy house, drives a fancy car and wears fancy clothes doesn't mean they're wealthy. Oftentimes many of these people don't have much money in the bank because all their money is spent on paying for the fancy house, car and clothes. Those are the type of people on this BOD, IMO. Everything is centered on the "image" portrayed. We can't have Chevy's parked in the driveway because it will make our neighborhood look lower class! |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 08/23/2008 8:25 PM |
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...Sadly, this is what happens in many upscale neighborhoods. Some of the residents feel the need to flaunt their wealth and portray the image of being better than everyone else...
I think this is exactly what is happening. And I do not find it at all surprising that an HOA in that city would define down to make and model what kind of trucks are allowable.
I would in no way say that all the people in the city are that way. But many people moving to Frisco are in fact doing so to show their affluence. |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2157
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| 08/24/2008 4:14 AM |
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| Sort of like Kingwood in the Houston area? |
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JanM
(Texas)
Posts:142
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| 08/24/2008 9:30 AM |
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| This isn't the first time Frisco was in the news and it won't be the last I'm sure! |
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DanS7
(Florida)
Posts:2
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| 10/26/2008 10:17 AM |
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I have also been to court on this issue. In my case and many others, district and appellate courts have ruled that subject bylaws and oridinances are unresonable,unconstitutional, and in violation of individuals rights when it comes to the restricion of personal use passenger trucks. As for the language of HOA bylaws when it comes to the parking of commercial vehilcles most are arbitrary and ambiguous. However if the bylaw staes no pickup trucks then one has to abide by the rule or amend it.
I have done alot of research on this issue and found that most HOA boards assume the pickup is to be restricted even though the bylaws do not state restriction by model of truck. Which brings me to the fact that automobile manufacturers produce two types of passenger vehicles.
Cars which consist of the models sedan coupe and wagon. Trucks consting of the models suv pickup van. Commercial vehicles are not considered passenger vehicles. However, passenger vehicles can have the appearance of a commercial vehicle when signs are attached and equipment is attached. But as far as a pickup being considered a commercial vehicle is a personal opinion. A pickup is a passenger vehicle. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 10/26/2008 10:43 AM |
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Posted By DanS7 on 10/26/2008 10:17 AM
But as far as a pickup being considered a commercial vehicle is a personal opinion. A pickup is a passenger vehicle.
Unless it has been registered and licensed as one; depending on your state. I believe that someone posted here that in California all pickups are considered commercial vehicles. |
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JoseS2
(California)
Posts:24
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| 10/26/2008 1:16 PM |
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As a board member, we are in the middle of a huge mess in regards to this exact issue. Our CCR's state "commercial vehicles" The past board interpets this as big trucks with signage. The member that was fined has a pickup with signage. The board fines over and over, member states that CCR is ambiguous and says that the Rules and Regs state that all CA Vehicle Codes apply. He brings in the Vehicle Code and he is right. The CA Vehicle Code does define a commercial vehicle as anything that is able to transport a load and does state pickups are commercial vehicles. He even tells board to look on their truck registratin and it will say it is commercial vehicle. I did and he is right. Board disagrees and after months and months and several hearings the board changes the violation to say no home based business. Member says he does business on job sites, and only paperwork is done at his home. No signage, customers, deliveries, ect.
I come into this mess trying to figure out what is what. Meanwhile, board sends attorney bills to member, liens home, and this is where we are at.
This member was the one to tell me about this website and has posted hear several times on this issue. Of course there are 2 sides to every story but I have spent the past 3 days reading CCR's, state laws, vehicle codes, and trying to calm all parties. As of late last night, the member says remove the fines within 21 days or they will file suit. After reading all the infor talking to both sides, I tend to agree with the member, this board screwed up. Problem that the board is split 3-2 on continuing the fight. I really beleive that it is an ego problem now and being on of the 2 board memebers what do?
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DanS7
(Florida)
Posts:2
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| 10/26/2008 2:04 PM |
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Home based business? What exactly does this meann? I am guessing it refers to the idea that a homeowner would have delivery of goods and store them on poperty or customers and workers vehicles parked out front of the home each day. In my community a neighbor is a realestate agent. Each day she places a magnetic sign on her Jaguar which advertises her business. She removes the sign when she returns home. Another neghbor does not advertise anything on his Ford explorer but he does deliver coffee and coffee machines with this vehicle. Both of these individuals operate a home base buisness out of their home. Are they in violation?
Should their vehicles be considered commercial vehicles? Pickup owners should be given same consideration as other passenger vehicles, meaning unless it has the appearance of a commercial vehicle there should be no problem. To restrict the pickup because a board dislikes that particular model of passenger truck is wrong and unjust. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:705
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| 10/26/2008 2:57 PM |
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I think this issue gets at the very heart of association governance. One must ask, "Just what kind of community do we want to live in? Do we want to live in a community that is governed by covenants that are absolute, or do we want to be governed by an elected board which uses its wisdom and best judgment to create a community of neighbors.
In Jose's situation, you are not only talking about a neighbor's home, but also his means of employment.
But it is a double edged sword. A pick up truck is clearly defined as a commercial vehicle, and those are clearly prohibited. The homeowners should have known that before moving in.
At the same time, the definition of a pickup truck was likely made years and years ago, before the modern version of a pickup cum passenger vehicle emerged. Today, pickup trucks are as much passenger vehicles as are SUVs.
Have the neighbors complained? Is anyone other than a board member concerned about this violation? Is this a situation of "enforcing the rules, because "rules are rules'?" Or is there a legitimate reason to prohibit parking of a pickup truck?
So what do you do?
I would use extraordinary measures to avoid a lawsuit, even though there is a good probability that the homeowners association would prevail. The costs in terms of community spirit and neighborliness and other intangible elements is great. It pits owners against the association that is designed to serve them. That is not healthy.
If a lawsuit is filed, I would do everything in my power to delay it, hoping and working toward an out of court resolution that saves face for both sides.
This may be a situation where the association simply declines to take enforcement action, using its judgment that to pursue it would do more harm than the suit would solve. That is not "selective enforcement" as some would most certainly cry. It is using sound business judgment measuring the value of enforcement against the costs.
Egos on both sides need to stay out of this case.
Thankfully, in our community, the association has the right, but not the obligation to enforce covenant violations. Every homeowner as well as the association itself is empowered to sue for covenant violations. It means that the governing board does not have to be the covenant police, nor do they have to prosecute every violation.
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RyanK
(Minnesota)
Posts:4
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| 10/26/2008 8:35 PM |
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| As a newbie to this site... ridiculous, and definetly classist. This is excactly why when at a seminar with about 75 HOA pms only two hands went up when the speaker asked how many managers actually live in an HOA. As a previous poster said "get with the program or get out"... most managers seem to know the program and never get in. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 10/27/2008 12:57 PM |
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The whole thing with what is a commercial vehicles depends on definition. If you want to be sure of a ban on the vehicles, then you define what a commercial vehicle is.
Since you don't have a definition, it would typically fall back to "common usage" though some states may decide that if their law has a definition this should take precedence.
A big issue that I see, is that the Board can't seem to make up its mind on what the issue is and now is fighting to be right. The unfortunate thing is that you are on the minority side of the Board.
I know you are really struggling with this issue. And it would appear that things are getting worse rather then better. You may need to take this fight to the ownership and engage in a recall effort for the remaining three members of the Board. Hopefully then you can figure out where you want to go.
I would recommend that you amend your documents to define what is a commercial vehicle. I don't see anything wrong with prohibiting signs on the vehicles. It would seem more fair then saying pickups. But make the definition something that is as clear as you can get.
My suggestion given what you have said (and not knowing all of the story) is that the issue really should be dropped and the terms defined. |
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JohnM29
(Nevada)
Posts:7
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| 10/27/2008 2:28 PM |
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Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 10/26/2008 2:57 PM
I think this issue gets at the very heart of association governance. One must ask, "Just what kind of community do we want to live in? Do we want to live in a community that is governed by covenants that are absolute, or do we want to be governed by an elected board which uses its wisdom and best judgment to create a community of neighbors.
I would consider it a community service for an HOA to ban all GM products
Kidding aside..come on! Do people really have so much time on their hands that they have to pick and choose what personal vehicles are allowed? And do people want to live in a community that is more like a federal prison rather than a home? I can't imagine what kind of a negative atmospehere those people must be living in.
Time for the responsible (and reasonable) homeowners to regain control! And if they fail to get involved and retake their community, then they ALL deserve that fate. If you're not happy with your government, change it. And if you don't vote, then you have no right to complain. |
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