NicoleO4
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| 08/17/2008 8:38 AM |
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Here in California it is an anuual requirement to have our fire alarms tested and each unit tested as well.
We did this yesterday. We needed ALL homeowners home. THey received notification via news letter and there were posted notices everywhere....
ONLY 50% of our building was home after all of that! Most of the units that were not occupied do have residents that DID not leave keys with anyone.
This is a huge issue here! The inspection found 1/2 of our buildings outside fire alarms are not working.. and they also found that many units individual alarms did not work.. and then we had those who didn't give a flying fig and weren't here for the mandated testing nor did they give keys to anyone for thier units.
JUST ans fyi. this was serious business and our homeowners lacked in response How crazy is this? Where does the liability lay?? |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/17/2008 9:20 AM |
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| It depends, is there something in either the CC&R's or the Law that mandates that someone must allow the Fire Department access to their unit without a warrant when an emergency situation doesn't exist? If so then whatever section is applicable is where you go to force compliance. This is not the same as a rental property where the law says the landlord must allow inspections. What specifically did the Fire Marshall cite you for and what does the citation require you to do? |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/17/2008 9:29 AM |
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Glen we do have the right per our cc&r's to gain access to property in this situation. I will say we were NOT prepared for this kind of NO SHOW or NO ACCESS of homeowners.
We will be arranging for repairs and retesting. We will have a locksmith on hand also. So the cost of the need to enter the property will be passed to the homeowner.. it's a shame that this has to come to this.
The liability I do believe is with the homeowner's who are not in compliance. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/17/2008 9:40 AM |
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| Not in compliance with what specifically? |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/17/2008 9:46 AM |
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While our documents also give us the right to enter units to cure violations, I wouldn't do it without:
A. A court order.
B. An actual violation to cure. If they are violating the law let the law handle the problem. If they are violating a CC&R then follow the proper procedure to cure the violation.
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/17/2008 10:38 AM |
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| Out of compliance by half our buildings exterior alarms are not working.... and that many homeowner's internal units aren't working and without access we can't get them repaired.... no alarms .. equals a smelly bbq. |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/17/2008 10:41 AM |
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Posted By GlenL on 08/17/2008 9:40 AM
Not in compliance with what specifically?
fire safety codes, civil codes and annual access to testing individual units for the hard wired alarm systems. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/17/2008 11:40 AM |
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| Fire Codes let the Fire Department enforce. Civil Codes get the prosecutor to enforce or take them to court. Is there a Covenant or properly enacted rule that requires a homeowner to open their privately owned dwelling to the Association to inspect and or repair the fire alarm in their unit? Our units have interconnected alarms however there is nothing in the CC&R's or as far as I know the law that would prevent me from disconnecting my unit from that system. |
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:41
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| 08/17/2008 4:05 PM |
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if you knowingly disconnect your unit from the system and someone dies as a result you would be guilty of CRIMNALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE
an HOA is not a vacuum - you must still follow all codes and laws |
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TonyM3
(Arizona)
Posts:131
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| 08/17/2008 4:47 PM |
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Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/17/2008 8:38 AM
The inspection found 1/2 of our buildings outside fire alarms are not working..
You need an inspection by the fire marshall for the board to maintain common property? Can't blame the residents for being any less apathetic.
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/17/2008 5:47 PM |
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Posted By TonyM3 on 08/17/2008 4:47 PM Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/17/2008 8:38 AM
The inspection found 1/2 of our buildings outside fire alarms are not working.. You need an inspection by the fire marshall for the board to maintain common property? Can't blame the residents for being any less apathetic.
I am not sure what this comment means, but there has been speculation of homeowner's undoing their internal units monitoring system and there for caused a short in main circuit... per inspection of the fire marshall. I am not sure where the apathy lies, and our common areas had in the past been working. This is an annual requirement per Californai Civil code... |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/17/2008 5:49 PM |
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Posted By JohnB7 on 08/17/2008 4:05 PM
if you knowingly disconnect your unit from the system and someone dies as a result you would be guilty of CRIMNALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE
an HOA is not a vacuum - you must still follow all codes and laws
You might be charged with CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE if you violated the law when you disconnected it, conviction is another matter. If you were to go back and read my prior posts you would find I am a staunch defender of HOA rights. I am also a staunch defender of homeowner rights and having the HOA enter my home without a court order would if I were home be met with the most adverse (12 gage) consequences and if I weren’t home I would file trespass charges.
As a former volunteer EMT/Paramedic with the local fire department I am certainly not advocating disconnecting fire alarms from the master alarm and I'm all for following the codes and laws and Covenant's. And having lived through it I can tell you personally how scary it is. I was also home when the large apartment building I was living at the time caught fire from a lightning strike, because the fire was above the alarms I was notified of its presence by neighbors long before the alarms ever sounded.
The rules for multiple occupancy dwellings and rental properties are different from stand alone homes and this might indeed be a violation of the fire code. We recommend that HOA BOD's not get involved in criminal matters but call the police to deal with the perpetrators. If it is a violation of the law then the Fire Marshall has the power to enforce compliance.
I'm not even advocating that the HOA shouldn't have the power to repair the system and charge the H/O for the work but it must be done in a legal manor. Just because the CC&R's give you the right to enter units does not mean you can do it capriciously or arbitrarily. Depending on what your violation policy is you must follow it to the point where it allows you the right to cure the violation; the HOA cannot make up something that violates your civil rights to do so.
I'll freely admit that Nicole and I are not the best of friends and I sometimes question her motives. From her posting I'm not sure whether she's more upset that some of the fire alarms were not functioning and it might be a safety concern or that people had the effrontery not to be home to allow entry when the BOD told them to be. Hence my question of what exactly they were in violation of. Is there a covenant that says upon x number of days notification the homeowner must open their home for inspection of the fire alarm system or one that requires the homeowner to maintain the fire alarm system in their unit in a working manor?
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1110
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| 08/17/2008 6:04 PM |
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Given that they are required to have an annual inspection, if there isn't authority to require access to units on testing day it needs to be added. Show the citation to the owners and that will likely be enough to get the vote to give you authority. Also, I would guess that you now have to have a re-inspection after you get the problems worked out.
You should look to put very stiff penalties in place for disconnection of an individual alarm. Go talk with the fire marshal as he may already have authority to cite the people. Most fire marshals take their job seriously, but are relatively easy to work with if they perceive that you want things to be right as well.
If you are as upset (or more) as he is over the malfunctions then he will likely work with you. Don't hesitate to ask him if he can put the onus on owners if needed.
I would also suggest that you schedule an advance inspection before the marshal shows up the next time. And apologize to the residents who either were there or left a key as they will now face the inconvenience of the second inspection. |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/17/2008 8:33 PM |
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Yes, I would say that I am more concerned about the lack of concern or apathy with homeowners.
And Glen.. lets let the past be the past. You don't need to keep asking my motives... ok?!! Let it go. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/18/2008 1:17 AM |
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Nicole you keep skating around two very simple and direct questions:
Is there a covenant that says upon x number of days notification the homeowner must open their home for inspection of the fire alarm system?
Is there a covenant that requires the homeowner to maintain the fire alarm system in their unit in a working manor?
While I'll agree that the owner's were apathetic and that it even caused the HOA aggravation it does not give the BOD the right to invade their homes to cure the problem unless there is something specific in the CC&R's to justify it.
I'll add one more question: Is there a law (civil or criminal) that requires a private homeowner, not a landlord, to allow the Fire Marshall access to their domicile.
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/18/2008 6:57 AM |
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Posted By GlenL on 08/18/2008 1:17 AM
Nicole you keep skating around two very simple and direct questions:
Is there a covenant that says upon x number of days notification the homeowner must open their home for inspection of the fire alarm system?
Is there a covenant that requires the homeowner to maintain the fire alarm system in their unit in a working manor?
While I'll agree that the owner's were apathetic and that it even caused the HOA aggravation it does not give the BOD the right to invade their homes to cure the problem unless there is something specific in the CC&R's to justify it.
I'll add one more question: Is there a law (civil or criminal) that requires a private homeowner, not a landlord, to allow the Fire Marshall access to their domicile.
Skating or not.
The answer is yes.. we have direct cc&r's that state we have to give our homeonwers 14days notice ( which we did ) and it also states that homeowners must keep thier individual units alarms in working order. We have found in the past with our annual alarm testing when a block of units alarms were not going it was due to someone tampering with their own internal alarms to deactivate them. As crazy as that sounds, the fire marshall feels this is the causative issue with over 30 units not being active and that whole side of the buildings external alarm does not work.
We had to hire a private security guard to do walk throughs every 30 minutes due to our citation until it gets resolved. |
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 08/18/2008 10:51 AM |
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| Our understanding is that our repairs are required to be done asap. If a homeowner does not allow access to thier home to repair the internal issue, according to our CC&rs if they do not respond to notification... they will be billed for a locksmith and repairs needed. It's sounds like it could be potentially a very expensive issue for all! |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1362
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| 08/18/2008 6:20 PM |
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OK Nicole now we have something to work with. Although as I stated earlier I wouldn't try to enter anyone's unit without a court order and I seriously doubt whether a licensed and bonded locksmith will open the doors for you without a court order but maybe you'll get lucky. At a minimum I would hire an off duty police officer to make sure that nothing is taken from the home.
I would arrange a time and post a notice on each and every unit you intend to enter and make repairs. I would cite in entirety the Covenants that require the H/O's compliance and the Covenant that gives the BOD the power to enter and make repairs if they do not do it and what the increased fees will be if they don't arrange to open their units. But before you do this I would run the whole mess by the HOA's attorney to make sure you're on solid legal footing.
Next year instead of using the newsletter and postings around the community that are too easy to ignore or say you didn't see, I would post the date of the inspection, the Covenants that require it and the penalty for non-compliance directly on everyone's door. Then use your postings around the community as a countdown to inspection day to keep the matter fresh in the H/O's minds and still I'll wager you'll have some that don't comply.
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JohnB7
(South Carolina)
Posts:41
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| 08/19/2008 9:08 AM |
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Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/18/2008 6:57 AM Posted By GlenL on 08/18/2008 1:17 AM
Nicole you keep skating around two very simple and direct questions:
Is there a covenant that says upon x number of days notification the homeowner must open their home for inspection of the fire alarm system?
Is there a covenant that requires the homeowner to maintain the fire alarm system in their unit in a working manor?
While I'll agree that the owner's were apathetic and that it even caused the HOA aggravation it does not give the BOD the right to invade their homes to cure the problem unless there is something specific in the CC&R's to justify it.
I'll add one more question: Is there a law (civil or criminal) that requires a private homeowner, not a landlord, to allow the Fire Marshall access to their domicile.
Skating or not. The answer is yes.. we have direct cc&r's that state we have to give our homeonwers 14days notice ( which we did ) and it also states that homeowners must keep thier individual units alarms in working order. We have found in the past with our annual alarm testing when a block of units alarms were not going it was due to someone tampering with their own internal alarms to deactivate them. As crazy as that sounds, the fire marshall feels this is the causative issue with over 30 units not being active and that whole side of the buildings external alarm does not work. We had to hire a private security guard to do walk throughs every 30 minutes due to our citation until it gets resolved.
Next time send the notices of need to access certified mail and bill / lien the offending owners for the cost of the 'fire watch' security. |
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