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StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/16/2008 6:56 PM
Would the back of a commercial truck with the following be considered a sign?? www.forkliftheadachecures.com

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

08/16/2008 10:58 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/16/2008 6:56 PM Would the back of a commercial truck with the following be considered a sign?? www.forkliftheadachecures.com No. In my mind it would still be considered the back of a truck. Only if a vehicle with a message on it were not operable and parked for a length of time without being moved, would it take on the character of a sign. (An example would be an old semi trailer with a seemingly unrelated message on its sides, carefully parked by a highway for several weeks or months as an apparent attempt to get around a law prohibiting billboard type signs.) Interesting question. Somehow I think you are getting at something you are not actually asking.

RW1
(Florida)

Posts:145

08/17/2008 4:44 AM
Steve, Typically, what sets personal use vehicles apart from commercial vehicles is not only their size, but the signage or lettering on the vehicle advertising their business. So if it is a commercial vehicle as you stated, it would be expected to have signage on it.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/17/2008 6:33 AM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/16/2008 6:56 PM Would the back of a commercial truck with the following be considered a sign?? www.forkliftheadachecures.com Steven, I would put it more into the category of a "bumper sticker" than a sign. On the other hand, if that slogan was mounted on a placard and placed in your front yard, then I would call it a sign.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

08/17/2008 7:14 AM
Steven, How is it mounted? In a window, painted on the gate? More is needed but I can tell you that as long as that truck moves, it is not a sign. It is a logo or an advertisement but not a sign.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 8:08 AM
as I figured...it is painted onto the back doors of the step-van (2-axle with 4 tires on the rear so it's large)...I'm just so frustrated that our HOA prez is allowing just about anything to be kept in the neighborhood. Several members have voiced concern but he has chosen to ignore those concerns for whatever reason. His answer...well "I'm" not going to restrict that "we are a working class neighborhood"..."besides the parking paragraph allows parking up to 48 hours"...you are just being ridiculous complaining about it. so I'm wondering just how well that would hold up in court should someone decide to sue the HOA over the commercial trucks and/or other violations that occur on a daily and continuing basis. See my other threads: http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/49670/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/48556/Default.aspx

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/17/2008 8:23 AM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 8:08 AM as I figured...it is painted onto the back doors of the step-van (2-axle with 4 tires on the rear so it's large)...I'm just so frustrated that our HOA prez is allowing just about anything to be kept in the neighborhood. Several members have voiced concern but he has chosen to ignore those concerns for whatever reason. His answer...well "I'm" not going to restrict that "we are a working class neighborhood"..."besides the parking paragraph allows parking up to 48 hours"...you are just being ridiculous complaining about it. so I'm wondering just how well that would hold up in court should someone decide to sue the HOA over the commercial trucks and/or other violations that occur on a daily and continuing basis. See my other threads: http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/49670/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/48556/Default.aspx Steven, So, your complaint is that this is a commercial vehicle, subject to certain restrictions, but the board Pres doesn't see it that way? Is this the only "sign" on the truck that, in your estimation, qualifies it as a commercial vehicle? Are there any other markings on the vehicle that would cause it to be classified as a commercial vehicle? Do you know for a fact the owner of the truck owns that website or works for the owner of that website? Quite frankly, IMO, that sign would qualify more as a bumper sticker than a logo for a commercial vehicle. If there was a "sign" saying: "KPFM radio", would you say it was a commercial vehicle? BTW, just because several members have voiced concerns over this vehicle doesn't mean there is any merit in that concern. Perhaps the real problem is some people just don't like large pickup trucks????

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/17/2008 8:33 AM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/16/2008 6:56 PM Would the back of a commercial truck with the following be considered a sign?? www.forkliftheadachecures.com nope

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

08/17/2008 8:55 AM
Steven, The regulars on this site know my story of a 3 year court battle over 2 Cadillac Escalade EXTs that our Board considered pickup trucks and the owners argued that they were SUVs. I have to tell you that we did not win the case and $60,000 later, we still have these guys in the neighborhood, hauling stuff, having big tool boxes, etc in the back of those trucks/SUVs. Our covenants said "no pickups to be parked in the developement other than within the garages ". Service people and workers were allowed but NO overnight parking of any trucks. The Judge ruled that the classification was the arguement. The State said that it was a SUV but the Manufacturer said that it was a truck in 2002 and a SUV in 2004. Same vehicle . We all lost this case because of what it did to our community The arguement over commercial or personal vehicles is neverending. Is your arguement over it being a sign? Are you allowed to have commercial vehicles parked outside? My opinion is that YES it is a commercial vehicle and NO, it is not a sign.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 10:19 AM
I guess my argument is really that it is a commercial vehicle and even the city/state consider it a commercial vehicle and therefore according to the CCR's is prohibited unless he can park it out of sight or in the garage (good luck with that one won't happen). Our HOA Board or should I say HOA prez won't act on it and says that as long as it doesn't stay in one place for 48 hours he won't do a darn thing. This truck comes and goes everyday although on the weekends it stays in place from Friday at 4:30 till Monday morning. I'd move but unfortunately I am not in a position to do that, so I'm pretty much stuck here. Because of my home location I can't go out or even look out my front door without having to see this obnoxious thing not too mention the Home Depot semi-truck that shows up on occassion. Here's the response when I tried to get the city under our ordinance to do something about it: I spent several hours with the Community Development Director for the City of Mustang today going over records on the two individual issues that you shared with me. Here is what I found: The Home Depot Semi: A permit was issued to this gentleman on June 17, 2008. This truck was verified to be a lease-purchase by this owner and is subcontracted to Home Depot through him as employment. Leasing and ownership documents were provided to the city when applying for the permit. He was issued a permit because he met all of the requirements. The Keathley Handling Solutions vehicle: Also, this person leases the vehicle, in his name, as part of his employment contract to Keathley Handling Solutions. Since this vehicle is only 2 axels, a semi-tractor parking permit was not necessary. By definition of state law, Semi-Tractors consist of more than 2 axels and more than 10,000 lb GVW. I know this is not the outcome you were hoping for, but both properties are in compliance with City Codes. Please let me know if I can be of futher assistance to you. Sincerely, Now here's the city code: Sec. 122-844. Storage and parking of trailers and commercial vehicles in residential areas. Commercial vehicles and trailers of all types, including utility, hauling, travel, camping and boat trailers and camper shell, shall not be parked or stored within any residential area except in accordance with the following provisions: (1) Semi-tractors. a. Upon issuance of a permit as provided under this section, a semi-tractor may lawfully be parked in a residential driveway, provided: 1. Permits shall only be issued to persons legitimately owning or renting the real property. 2. Permits shall only be issued to owner/operators of persons legitimately leasing, lease-purchasing, or owning a semi-tractor. So if the one truck isn't a semi-tractor the councilman is correct, it doesn't require a permit but since it is a "commercial truck" being used in a legitimate business then it should be prohibited from being parked in the area based upon the ordinance. I brought that up to the city so will see what happens. My whole complaints with the HOA, in general, is that they do not enforce anything and provide questionable responses to complaints. All they focus on is their little pet projects (pond fountain, benches, covering the grafitti on the playground equipement, etc.). Anybody need a home in OK?? lol

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 10:21 AM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/17/2008 8:23 AM Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 8:08 AM as I figured...it is painted onto the back doors of the step-van (2-axle with 4 tires on the rear so it's large)...I'm just so frustrated that our HOA prez is allowing just about anything to be kept in the neighborhood. Several members have voiced concern but he has chosen to ignore those concerns for whatever reason. His answer...well "I'm" not going to restrict that "we are a working class neighborhood"..."besides the parking paragraph allows parking up to 48 hours"...you are just being ridiculous complaining about it. so I'm wondering just how well that would hold up in court should someone decide to sue the HOA over the commercial trucks and/or other violations that occur on a daily and continuing basis. See my other threads: http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/49670/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/48556/Default.aspx Steven, So, your complaint is that this is a commercial vehicle, subject to certain restrictions, but the board Pres doesn't see it that way? Is this the only "sign" on the truck that, in your estimation, qualifies it as a commercial vehicle? Are there any other markings on the vehicle that would cause it to be classified as a commercial vehicle? Do you know for a fact the owner of the truck owns that website or works for the owner of that website? Quite frankly, IMO, that sign would qualify more as a bumper sticker than a logo for a commercial vehicle. If there was a "sign" saying: "KPFM radio", would you say it was a commercial vehicle? BTW, just because several members have voiced concerns over this vehicle doesn't mean there is any merit in that concern. Perhaps the real problem is some people just don't like large pickup trucks???? This is not a large pickup truck, if it were I wouldn't have a problem with it...check out the web site this is no small truck....

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 11:47 AM
I think this link will work to see the truck... http://members.cox.net/btlfan64/P8170166.JPG

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1362

08/17/2008 12:00 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 11:47 AM I think this link will work to see the truck... http://members.cox.net/btlfan64/P8170166.JPG That right there is indeed a commercial vehicle and while I wouldn't take the web address as a sign; I would however interpret the signs painted on the truck to indeed be a sign. If your Covenants do allow for a commercial vehicle to be parked in your community you may have no recourse in the matter. What are the specific Covenants regarding commercial vehicles and signs? If the sign Covenant simply states no signs without the BOD's approval then I would take your presidents remarks as meaning the signage was approved. Then your only recourse is to change the covenants or if you think that they're not being enforced properly, change the BOD or take the offending H/O to court yourself.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 1:31 PM
as discussed in another thread here's the restriction.. 2. Restrictions. The following activities are "prohibited" at Sara Pointe unless expressly authorized by and then subject to such conditions as may be imposed by, the Board: 2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. you'll note that they are allowing it by virtue of "unless expressly authorized" portion of the section...this simple little line means they can ignore almost anything the Prez wants to ignore. The board has never voted to authorize this and it has been a unilateral decision on the part of the President owing to his own judgment. In MHO whoever wrote this line into the covenants/restrictions is a complete moron of the highest caliber. Why even have the entire paragraph in it...tomorrow he doesn't like someone so he'll enforce the restriction on them but not the two he likes? Sorry for the sarcastic remarks but I didn't bargain for this in a "deed restricted" community!

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/17/2008 2:36 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 11:47 AM I think this link will work to see the truck... http://members.cox.net/btlfan64/P8170166.JPG Stephen, Thx for the link. Your initial message was extremely misleading. This is most definitely a commercial vehicle. The particular sign you referred to in your intial message is incidential to all the other advertising all over this vehicle. Can't imagine what your board Pres' problem is. Now, I certainly do understand why "some members" of the assn are upset about this. If your assn bans commercial vehicles from the streets and/or driveways, this individual needs to receive a violation notice. Does the 48-hours allowance apply to commercial vehicles owned or operated by members or just to commercial vehicles that might be "visiting" a members' home? In other words, a service vehicle on call, etc.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 2:46 PM
The reason I started this thread was because someone had mentioned to me they considered it a sign. Mary; Here's our restriction. His problem is he doesn't want to do his job...he wants the title in name only and only acts on his pet projects or if it offends him personally. I can guarantee nothing will be done but I'm going to make a formal complaint to another board member to see what happens. I'm also still in discussions with the city about the definition of what this vehicle is...they say it could be classified as a semi-truck/tractor...NOT.... 2. Restrictions. The following activities are "prohibited" at Sara Pointe unless expressly authorized by and then subject to such conditions as may be imposed by, the Board: 2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/17/2008 2:51 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 1:31 PM as discussed in another thread here's the restriction.. 2. Restrictions. The following activities are "prohibited" at Sara Pointe unless expressly authorized by and then subject to such conditions as may be imposed by, the Board: 2.1 Parking. Parking any vehicles on public or private streets or thoroughfares or parking of commercial vehicles or equipment, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, golf carts, boats and other watercraft, trailers, stored vehicles or inoperable vehicles in places other than enclosed garages; provided, construction, service and delivery vehicles shall be exempt from this provision for such a period of times as is reasonably necessary to provide service or make a delivery to a Lot or the Common Area. No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours. you'll note that they are allowing it by virtue of "unless expressly authorized" portion of the section...this simple little line means they can ignore almost anything the Prez wants to ignore. The board has never voted to authorize this and it has been a unilateral decision on the part of the President owing to his own judgment. In MHO whoever wrote this line into the covenants/restrictions is a complete moron of the highest caliber. Why even have the entire paragraph in it...tomorrow he doesn't like someone so he'll enforce the restriction on them but not the two he likes? Sorry for the sarcastic remarks but I didn't bargain for this in a "deed restricted" community! Steven, As I see it, the problem is with the interpretation of this portion of the parking restriction: "No Owner, leasee, tenant or occupant of a Lot, including all individuals who reside with such Owner, leasee or occupant on the Lot, shall park, keep, or store any vehicle on any Lot which is visible from any street or neighboring Lot other than a passenger vehicle or pick-up truck and then only if parked on the driveway for a period not exceeding forty-eight (48) consecutive hours." After reading this statement several times my interpretation is that passenger vehicles and p/u trucks may be parked on the driveway but not for a period longer than 48 consecutive hours. This would effectively prohibit storing vehicles on the driveway. But, I believe your board Pres. has interpreted this to include commercial vehicles in the 48-hr period as evidenced by the remark you quoted him as saying: "besides the parking paragraph allows parking up to 48 hours". Also, I believe if you research further in your docs you may find that the board alone has the authority to interpret the restrictions contained in the CCRs.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 3:44 PM
MaryA1; The President has made the determination/interpretation based upon the 48 hour consecutive passenger-p/u truck portion and is ignoring the part that says any other type vehicles such as "commercial vehicles" in places other than enclosed garages part. The saga continues but I believe they will just refuse to act or call it a "ridiculous" complaint and ignore any complaints on the issue, something I consider to be a very serious problem with him and the Board at large. Judging from past meetings nobody cares and participation except for freebie parties nobody associates with anybody...

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 3:46 PM
oops... "Judging from past meetings nobody cares and participation except for freebie parties nobody associates with anybody" should read: Judging from past meetings nobody cares and participation except for freebie parties is readily apparent.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/17/2008 3:50 PM
Posted By StevenW3 on 08/17/2008 3:46 PM oops... "Judging from past meetings nobody cares and participation except for freebie parties nobody associates with anybody" should read: Judging from past meetings nobody cares and participation except for freebie parties is readily apparent. Stephen, Which, sadly, is the status quo for most assn's! The only thing you can hope for is that a new board will be seated and they will have a different interpretation. With enough pressure from the majority of the members this may come to pass; but as long as apathy runs rampant. . . .

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/17/2008 6:21 PM
I don't blame you for not wanting that in the neighborhood. It is definitely a commercial vehicle. Your best bet is to look to vote the president out of office when the time comes for re-election to the BOD. But it could also be that the president is following the heartbeat of the neighborhood. As a note, the trailer beside the truck wouldn't be allowed in my neighborhood either.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/17/2008 7:05 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/17/2008 6:21 PM I don't blame you for not wanting that in the neighborhood. It is definitely a commercial vehicle. Your best bet is to look to vote the president out of office when the time comes for re-election to the BOD. But it could also be that the president is following the heartbeat of the neighborhood. As a note, the trailer beside the truck wouldn't be allowed in my neighborhood either. The Board elected the officers NOT the membership...they didn't have a quorum. The previous President became the Vice President and the former VP is now the President...all elected voted on by the current/previous Board members...nothing has changed except the Pres/VP positions...after a mere two years in existence is has become a good ole boy institution where the positions are swapped back and forth...I was nominated and received one vote...mine...what chance would there be to get these two out of office...slim to none in my opinion...apathy rules the neighborhood... as soon as I can swing a move, I'm going out to the country where there is NO HOA!!!

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/18/2008 6:00 PM
As a note, the HOA is not the only organization which can interpret the covenants. Nor are they the only organization allowed to enforce the covenants. It is just that they are the only one charged with it. The thing is that anyone who is affected by the violation of a covenant can bring about legal action to enforce the covenant. Thus you could file a law suit seeking an injunction from parking this vehicle as they have. The trouble is that you have to finance the project (though it may be doable through small claims court without a lawyer). Also, you will surely upset some people. On the flip side of the coin if others agree then you may find yourself elected to the BOD next year. If you desire to sit on the BOD the way to do so is to collect proxy statements. I would be quite honest about my position. Tell them you would like to see the neighborhood have more enforcement brought about. And you can even point to the truck. (But don't bother asking the driver of the truck for a proxy since he is not likely to vote to enforce the rule against parking the truck there.)

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

08/21/2008 10:58 AM
good idea, I'll check on the small claims angle...it would be doable if they'll allow it.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:705

08/21/2008 11:34 AM
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/18/2008 6:00 PM As a note, the HOA is not the only organization which can interpret the covenants. Nor are they the only organization allowed to enforce the covenants. It is just that they are the only one charged with it. The thing is that anyone who is affected by the violation of a covenant can bring about legal action to enforce the covenant. Thus you could file a law suit seeking an injunction from parking this vehicle as they have. Kirk, you are right on target. In most, but perhaps not all, covenant communities homeowners have the same rights to enforce covenants and rules. In our community that is certainly the case. Indeed, our covenants are very clear about that point. "ARTICLE XV Violation or threatened violation of these covenants and restrictions shall be grounds for an action by the Declarant and Association, any person or entity having any right, title or interest in the Real Estate (or any part thereof), or any person or entity having any right, title or interest in a Lot which is now or hereafter made subject to the Declaration, and all persons or entities claiming under them, against the person or entity violating or threatening to violate any such covenants or restrictions. Available relief in any such action shall include recovery of damages or other sums due for such violation, injunctive relief against any such violation or threatened violation, declaratory relief, and the recovery of costs and attorneys' fees incurred by any party successfully enforcing these covenants and restrictions; provided, however, that neither the Declarant nor the Association shall be liable for damages of any kind to any person for failing to enforce or carry out such covenants or restrictions."

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/21/2008 12:34 PM
George, Many assn docs state a member may enforce the CCR restrictions. Some state the member must first petition the board to enforce; if they don't then the member may -- at the member's expense. My assn CCRs require a written request from at least 10 owners, if the board fails to enforce for an unreasonable period of time (which shall exceed at least 30 days), then the members may enforce on behalf of the assn by whatever appropriate action. Some ambiguity there as to whether it would be at the assn's expense of the members' expense.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

08/21/2008 1:08 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/21/2008 12:34 PM My assn CCRs require a written request from at least 10 owners, Wow! That seems a little steep.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/22/2008 2:05 PM
We have 1,701 members, so it's not even 10%. If you look at it that way, I don't think it's steep. The CCRs of my former assn of only 49 homes, has the same wording except that an individual member could submit a written request to the board.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1676

08/22/2008 2:30 PM
I still think it's steep. We have some streets that don't even have 10 homes on them! So that would mean on some streets, some cul de sacs, if the neighbors feel intimidated by an abusive resident, who's gonna "complain" on anything he does, especially if it has to be a minimum number of separate complaining individuals before the board or PM will even take the complaint seriously? In fact, we have one such scenario right now. One guy has a boat and a very large truck with a trailer attached (separate from the trailer on the boat). He is in a cul de sac, and there are only 8 houses on his street, his being one of them, obviously. He was parking the boat in his driveway and the truck/trailer on the street in front. He was also keeping his basketball goal in the middle of the cul de sac, in the street. He is also a very large, intimidating neighbor. One of his neighbors asked him if he would be careful not to have his kids playing basketball in the street as they were having difficulty backing out and around them, he told the guy, Okay, I'll just let them play in your driveway then. If we had to wait for a minimum number, anyway, we'd be S.O.L. as would the neighbors who live around him and have an expectation of the CC&Rs being enforced. Fortunately, one resident did file a complaint. It was turned over to a board member for verification, and he has since been noticed and has gotten rid of the boat, the trailer AND keeps the basketball goal in his driveway, up past the sidewalk as the CC&Rs require. It took a couple months of back-and-forth and monitoring, but he is in compliance now. I'd hate to think we couldn't have done anything unless a minimum number of people came forward to report the alleged violation. I really don't understand the value of that nor the purpose of it. =\ (PS: how do we post smileys here? Where are you guys finding the list for them???)

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:443

08/22/2008 2:45 PM
Posted By MicheleD on 08/22/2008 2:30 PM (PS: how do we post smileys here? Where are you guys finding the list for them???) Michelle - we're just using standard "typographical emoticons": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon Scroll down on that page to find some common examples. The HOATalk server automagically turns them into the images that you see. Just to test, lets see which ones the HOATalk server knows :-) happy :-( sad ;-) wink :-D big grin :-P tongue out :-* kiss > angry :-O surprised :-/ uncertain And some of my favorites 8-) Smiling with glasses :-{)} Smiling with a beard and mustache

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