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PeterB1 (Florida)
Posts: 257
Posted:
We are a Florida HOA where the Covenants say: Signs other than 'For Sale' must be approved by the Architectural Review Board (ARB). The Board of Directors (I am a member) sent out a policy statement that said (carefully): "Any other signs that residents desire to place on their lot must be approved by the Architectural Review Board (ARB). This would include signs for candidates or issues in upcoming elections."

Thirty minutes after the email went out, we received this: "...We plan to place a political sign in our yard when the time comes and we will not remove it when asked."

We are not a vindictive Board. But, the thought of a street filled with election signs upsets most of us. Comments or suggestions?
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
In Maryland it is state law that a condo/HOA homeowner may place political signs outside of a home for 30 days before an election or referendum and for 10 days after same. I'd be surprised if Florida did not have a similar law.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Peter,

Take the proper procedure into mind and send out the warning letter and procede to fine as per your documents if allowed. You as a Board member cannot make exceptions. This warning to the Board from a member is just what makes for bad dynamics in the neighborhood that you govern. Once anyone sends that kind of letter to a Board, they are just testing to see how far they can push you. The covenant that you posted does not allow for signs of any kind without permission from the ARC. This guy is trouble IMHO.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
For us, a much easier way to handle it was to propose an amendment to the Signs restriction allowing for, among other things, political signs xx days before and after elections, garden signs (in the landscaping bed, such as Welcome, Nana's Garden), security signs (signs warning of the use of security system on the premises), and signs on door decorations (again, on wreaths, etc, that say things like Welcome, etc).

Each "exception" was it's own subsection and was voted on independently of the others.

That way the residents get to say what they feel comfortable with that allows them to maintain property values AND personal voice.

Each section passed overwhelmingly.

We now no longer have to play Violation Notice Tag during election time.

However, until the amendment was passed, we enforced the "No signs except for sale of lot signs" covenant.

I will say this, most people did take the signs down after they received the letter. Had they not, I'm not sure what the board would have done. By the time you get attorney's involved, and try to scare up a legal remedy, the election is over and the signs are gone.

We don't have a fining structure in our documents.

HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
Arizona too allows political signs "notwithstanding" HOA documents. I'm surprised Florida pols haven't picked this up to protect and promote their own campaign signs.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Actually Michelle, your amendments may have made things worse. From what I've been able to tell from reading about court cases, when HOAs get in trouble for sign restrictions it's when they try to enforce based on content. If your CC&Rs say no signs at all, you are more likely to be able to win if it goes to court than if you try to enforce no business signs but allow political signs.

Your thoughts about the time frame is correct though. If your enforcement procedure calls for first sending out a "Reminder" notice before immediately jumping to fines, then more than likely you can send out a notice or two and the signs will be gone anyway before you could escalate to more drastic measures.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I personally think that by pointing that the sign approval included political signs a challenge was quite likely.

Further, if you intend to allow some political signs and not others you should ensure that you are not risking your corporate status. The minute you allow a single political sign and prohibit another you have taken a side in a political issue. And you should know any laws relating to your nonprofit status and taking endorsing a political candidate (or issue).

Beyond that, you should consider the implications of how your membership will view the choice of which candidate (or issue) you endorse.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 08/15/2008 6:51 PM
Actually Michelle, your amendments may have made things worse. From what I've been able to tell from reading about court cases, when HOAs get in trouble for sign restrictions it's when they try to enforce based on content. If your CC&Rs say no signs at all, you are more likely to be able to win if it goes to court than if you try to enforce no business signs but allow political signs.

Your thoughts about the time frame is correct though. If your enforcement procedure calls for first sending out a "Reminder" notice before immediately jumping to fines, then more than likely you can send out a notice or two and the signs will be gone anyway before you could escalate to more drastic measures.

With all due respect, I don't agree. Our language was well-vetted.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
whatever you do, be careful with your wording.

Re-Elect Bush! is an election sign

Get out of Iraq! is a political sign.

If you allow political signs, be prepared for anything... everything is political.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I think these two links from the New York Times may shed some useful light on the subject:

Court Upholds Curbs on Signs in New Jersey
July 27, 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/27/nyregion/27home.html?fta=y

    In a ruling that could have implications far beyond New Jersey, the State Supreme Court on Thursday upheld the right of homeowners’ associations to restrict the posting of political signs and other forms of constitutionally protected speech, as long as the restrictions are not “unreasonable or oppressive.”

    “We conclude that in balancing plaintiffs’ expressional rights against the association’s private property rights, the association’s policies do not violate the free-speech and right-of-assembly clauses of the New Jersey Constitution,” the court ruled unanimously.

    "The homeowners’ association rules in Twin Rivers did not forbid all political signs, but allowed signs only in flower beds and windows."


However, the earlier, overturned ruling is just as interesting:
Chalk One Up for Homeowners
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/12njHOME.html?pagewanted=print

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
This web page may also be illuminating to the discussion here. See the specific references to Arizona and Ohio.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/personal/topic.aspx?topic=yard_signs
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
And here is an article from today's newspaper:
HOA: SIGNS MUST GOAug 16, 2008
    Pat and Heather Stefl received a citation from their homeowners association for posting election signs in the yard of their Stafford home.

    Volunteer homeowners were once responsible for inspecting the community of 454 homes. But last year, the neighborhood's management company, Landmarc Real Estate, took over that task.

    "It just became too much of a job for volunteers," said Linda Solomey, the community's property manager.

    Two other homeowners also have been cited for displaying campaign signs, according to Landmarc.

    Homeowners with a violation receive two warning letters. If they fail to correct the problem, they must come before the full board of directors at an HOA meeting. The HOA can order payment of a one-time $50 fine or up to $10 a day for up to 90 days.
fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/082008/08162008/402401 - 46k - 7 hours ago -
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
What I find most interesting in George's last post is that it is the mention of the new management company. Sort of implies that before the management company such signs were allowed (or received no enforcement action).

It should be noted that some states do have laws that specifically prevent HOAs (or other organizations) from prohibiting election signs. I am not affected since those signs are specifically allowed in our covenants.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Kirk and all,

As I posted above, I am not in favor of any signs being posted in the HOA.

My Fl home had the covenant where NO signs were allowed. None!. For sale signs were an item that was treated with a clear plastic 8-1/2 X 11 box which hung from a cross bar under the mailboxes. Everyone knew what they were for including agents and people who had gotten thru the gates without being buzzed in (another subject). It said on the front of the box--"HOME FOR SALE"

Then comes the 2004 elections. The State had a couple of referendums , one which was a very hot subject all around our country.It was abortion/stem cell use, etc. Now we have a resident who is a Dr, fully in favor of the subject. He erected a 5' X 10' sign on his front yard. Before the last hammer swing was put to it, his neighbor had an anti sign, the guy across the street had 7 G.W.Bush signs up. This was in our Estate section where homes were near $800,000. I don't need to tell you that as fast as our P.M could get them down, they sprouted up in another spot.

Every once in a while, someone will try another sign but the neighborhood and association learned from this experience that if the covs say NONE, then it has to be none, no matter what the subject is.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/16/2008 7:17 AM
What I find most interesting in George's last post is that it is the mention of the new management company. Sort of implies that before the management company such signs were allowed (or received no enforcement action).

It should be noted that some states do have laws that specifically prevent HOAs (or other organizations) from prohibiting election signs. I am not affected since those signs are specifically allowed in our covenants.
Yeah, Kirk. It didn't become an issue until the property manager took over. That says something to me, as it does to you. Astute observation.

We have a no signs rule as well that is utterly unenforced. The association attorney advises (1) the Indiana courts would probably hold that such an absolute rule to be unreasonable and therefore contrary to public policy; and (2) by the time enforcement letters go out, and a lawsuit could be brought, the election would be over, and the question moot.

Reasonable rules, along the lines that Michele has suggested, would most likely past court muster. (So for those here who like to parse covenants and rules, does the board of directors therefore have the authority to modify a no-sign deed restriction with reasonable rules for displaying signs, absent a court case?)

Keep in mind that Hoosierland homeowners associations are not empowered to levy fines.

The no sign covenant is one of those unenforceable rules that tend to overpopulate deed restrictions. As I have observed, about half of typical covenants are unenforceable in Indiana.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Here we go parsing words again, and splitting hairs.

So be it. The amendment that was approved stated:

V. Placement of political signs, defined for the purpose herein as signs in support of a particular candidate running or item on a ballot in a current election cycle, on a lot may be approved by the Arch Committee. Such signs may not be displayed more than thirty days prior to a primary or general or special election and must be removed within two days after the primary or general or special election. No sign shall exceed nine square feet in area. Arch Comm approval may be requested but is not necessarily required in advance. However, upon review, the decision shall be within the sole and absolute discretion of the Arch Comm and approval may be arbitrarily and unreasonably withheld. If disapproved, removal or alteration of political signs shall be completed within two days notification by the Architectural Committee.


So even IF a generic "political" sign not in conjunction with an election were placed on a lot, and it would still be restricted to the time frame above and be confined to a certain size.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I don't have a problem with the management company taking over enforcement and violation notifications jumped.

It doesn't necessarily mean that all political signs were "allowed," or, more appropriately, "not 'caught'," prior to the company coming on board.

It may simply mean that the prior enforcement was inconsistent due to lack of time and resources by the board.

So some signs may have gone unnoticed, while others, depending on where they were, on a frequently traveled road through the subdivision, for example, were more likely to be seen and, therefore, "noticed" by the board members.

It would be inappropriate to assume that prior to that signs were "allowed," or that only certain themes or types were "caught." It may well be exactly as the board indicated, it became to cumbersome and difficult to "police" for such things.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Michele,

Were I king of Hoosierland associations, I would ban all signs. I think political signs are especially tacky. And next come real estate open house signs. But I am on the losing side of that one.

Nevertheless, two observations/questions from your post.

It appears that there is no restriction on the number of signs on any one lot/unit. Could a resident display one sign for every candidate and issue? A yard full of signs?

What about non-public elections? What about elections for the association board, or for issues coming up for a membership vote? What about elections to the local PTA board? It appears that signs for these could be displayed as well. Would you say that is intended in the rule.

Oh, and by the way, were I a practicing attorney, I would have a field day in court with the verbiage, "and approval may be arbitrarily and unreasonably withheld." Dems fightin' words, if I ever heard any. Any rule or decision that is arbitrary or unreasonable is contrary to public policy and even contract law.
    Q: What do they call a good-looking, intelligent female in Kentucky?

    A: A Tourist.



JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
>>>However, upon review, the decision shall be within the sole and absolute discretion of the Arch Comm and approval may be arbitrarily and unreasonably withheld.<<<

Poor drafting. Should be in the disjunctive, not conjunctive.

Should be artitrarily OR unreasobably withheld. Why? If approval is withheld on an arbitrary though reasonable basis, the AC might be acting outside of its powers.

I'm sure George would agree!
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
The wording regarding Arch Comm approval is on every subsection. It is common language in many covenants and has been tested at various times in various cases that have bubbled up in court. No, I can't cite any, but our vetting process, which also included a retired judge, was pretty thorough.

Also, I retyped the content, (I don't have it on this computer to cut and paste), and it actually does say OR.

The main portion of the Signage section limits signs on lots to one.

If you notice, that is subsection V. (five).

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 08/16/2008 9:24 AM

    Q: What do they call a good-looking, intelligent female in Kentucky?

    A: A Tourist.




Funny you should mention that!

I'm a Native New Yorker!

*wink*
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
And/Or aside, I support language such as that being discussed. Makes things easier for Boards, and is simple for HOs to understand, despite the obvious fact that it can also be used for favoritism and/or punishment and/or retaliation.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

John,

See?, that's the problem. Any allowance of a sign, no one knows what will appear. If you specify that it can be political, all it takes is some creative mind to get some kind of very controversial message worked into a sign. The Developer had this in the original restrictive covenants for a reason. He wanted to maintain a clean uncluttered look to his developement.

Right now as I drive down some of the busy intersections, there are 20 or 30 signs all over the place (we just had Sheriff and Judges elections) The signs are required to be removed within 48 hours after an election. Not always are they gone and by then they are all crooked and looking messy. Better off not to have any.

Question for us all. Does the presence of a sign on a corner or in a yard encourage you to vote for that candidate? It surely does not encourage me.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Political signs only confirm to me that my political philosophy is clearly in the minority in our neighborhood.

But if they were not effective, they would not be so prevalent.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK3 on 08/16/2008 10:03 AM
And/Or aside, I support language such as that being discussed. Makes things easier for Boards, and is simple for HOs to understand, despite the obvious fact that it can also be used for favoritism and/or punishment and/or retaliation.

Well, I take considerable offense to this.

If an HOA has that sort of history, then the homeowners need to take it back.

Having a section in the covenant like that does gives us some discretion, indeed. But there are times when that discretion might be necessary.

We've not had to use it, but in case we do, we have an avenue for it.

Focus on that section all you want.

If the homeowners had a problem with giving the board that discretion, the individual sections that contain it would have been voted down.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Goerge,
Actually, as a Journalism major in school, we studied advertising, which is basically what the purpose of the signs are. Anyhow, signage is an antiquated form of advertising, used at a time when there was no e-mail, no T.V., and all of our modern means of communication. So some creative ad guy figured out that if you stuck your message on a billboard, many folks will see your message. Political signs are a form of that type of advertising. They are basically alot cheaper than many other forms of getting your message out. I think that we have moved past their effectiveness but thank gosh for them because so many of these print shops would be looking for new clients. And we would not have to go out with trucks to pick them out of the ditches.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:


Sorry !!! it's GEORGE
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Michele,

Fell free to take offense (your vetted language, not mine), but I was simply stating the obvious. When I think Discretion, Arbitrary and/or Unreasonable don't imediately pop into my mind. Reasonable does.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonnaS on 08/16/2008 10:38 AM

Goerge,
Actually, as a Journalism major in school, we studied advertising, which is basically what the purpose of the signs are. Anyhow, signage is an antiquated form of advertising, used at a time when there was no e-mail, no T.V., and all of our modern means of communication. So some creative ad guy figured out that if you stuck your message on a billboard, many folks will see your message. Political signs are a form of that type of advertising. They are basically alot cheaper than many other forms of getting your message out. I think that we have moved past their effectiveness but thank gosh for them because so many of these print shops would be looking for new clients. And we would not have to go out with trucks to pick them out of the ditches.
I am sure you are correct. We don't vary many political buttons any more--they have outlived their effectiveness. Nor are we seeing as many bumper stickers.

Let's hope yard signs go the way of the campaign button. Sure would improve the look of our neighborhoods around election time.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
I place a sign in my unpstaris window and will be putting a bumper sticker on my car. That will work.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I have no issue with an HOA that chooses to ban all the signs. And I have to say that I think Donna's neighborhood does things right as it doesn't take a large sign when you are selling a home. Just enough to alert those looking for a house for sale.

I do have an issue with the idea of some review process. My concern is that a committee might allow only signs for one side of an issue. If they are simply ensuring that the size is reasonable or that this is one of those printed signs actually supporting a candidate or something I can see it. But how do you ensure it stays that way.

The big thing is that I feel the HOA should be neutral. No signs at all is neutral. But I am too much a cynic to trust that any review process will remain neutral.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Our signs do not need to be approved prior to posting.

The only "review" is when or if a resident complains of an offensive or inappropriate sign.

If a sign violates the restriction (there are 5 different types of signs permitted by the restriction), then we request it be removed.

If it doesn't violate the restriction, it stays.

Period.

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Michele - IMO you are on a ticking time bomb. Eventually somebody is going to post a religious sign that is "offensive" to somebody else. If you try to have them take it down while allowing the political sign next door to stay, you will be accused of selective enforcement. If you don't try to have the religious sign removed but you do have business signs removed, you will be accused of selective enforcement.

Did you read the articles that George posted? Time limits are not allowed (City of Painesville Building Department v. Dworken & Bernstein Co. (2000)). Limits on the number of signs are not allowed (Arlington County Republican Committee v. Arlington County (1993)). Complete restrictions on all signs are allowed for HOAs (Midlake on Big Boulder Lake, Condominium Association v. Cappuccio (1996)).

You can be defensive and disagree all you want, but I think that if (when?) your sign amendments get challenged in court, you will find that you've given up the ability to enforce any of your sign restrictions.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Dwight,
I agree. To me its all or nothing. Allowed or not allowed because there is always going to be some smart pants who finds just the smallest loophole and away we go with the arguements

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