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RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2510

08/06/2008 11:14 AM
Gearge, You sound like a very knowlegeable person, as such I would like you to comment. I this Susan alluded to this in a reason post but maybe we can expand on this and see if it has a place in a few of the most recent posts. "call a point of order," at a meeting and question publically some Board action or reaction. What can be gained by this and should it be applied to some recent posts concerning preceived Board illegal activities? I have used it at a meeting and it was sussessful that the "issue" was tabled, probably never to be seen again, but is that enough. All are welcome to add anything.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/06/2008 2:07 PM
I don't know how to respond really to your question. You may be sorry you asked. . . I would posit that half the homeowners association board members have no idea (1) what a point of order is, or (2) how to deal with it in the normal conduct of a meeting. Most board members have no experience in governance, or group decision making, or the fundamentals of meetings, or in applying Roberts Rules of Order, etc. Nor should they. Nor need they. I admit to being a heretic. I see much of the world, and its "common" knowledge, in a very different way than most people. While most people are asking, "How?" I am asking, "Why?" Most boards and board members have no idea what they are supposed to be doing, or how they should be doing it, so they perpetuate doing things the same way things have been done for years, and not worked very well. We need a new model of governance of homeowners associations--a new way of looking at the role and function of the board. From studying organizational governance for a number of years, and looking a wide variety of homeowners associations particularly in Hoosierland, I can legitimately make several observations. Every neighborhood, every community, every association has a different "corporate culture." What works in an association of 26 townhomes with shared common walls, does not work for a 120 unit high-rise condo with rental units and part-year residents, and does not work for a 2,000 member association of single family homes on 1/4 acre lots. What works for a community with a high level of amenities, does not work for a community with few amenities. The laws in every state, both statutes and case law, are different. What works (best) in one state, can be entirely inappropriate in other states. (That point seems to be missed by many posters in this discussion forum.) In Indiana, only about half of the restrictive covenants in a neighborhood are legally enforceable. Most are boilerplate, and if properly challenged in court would not stand up. It is appalling to me that lawyers endorse such drivel. It has got to be the greatest collection of the worst work of the legal profession. We should be appalled. But we are not, sadly. Most "busy boards" are "busy" doing the wrong things. Most associations work best informally, through common sense, not legalisms. Yet, common sense is an incredibly rare commodity among board members and some homeowners. Lack of open full, expansive, adequate communication is the single greatest characteristic of homeowners association boards of directors. It can be either a symptom of a more fundamental problem, or a problem in and of itself. Boards that do not communicate well are able to protect themselves, and operate without accountability to the homeowners they supposedly serve. Boards are highly prone to the vagaries of "committee think." Through much social research we have learned that a group of individuals will think and act in a way that none of the members would think or act as an individual. We see this in street gangs, in packs of domesticated dogs, and in state legislatures as well as the United States Congress. Typically, 1/3rd or less of homeowners care to vote in a board election. Thus, board membership is ripe for abuse and the exercise of egoism and petty power. Lack of transparency, heavy-handedness, and arrogance of petty power tend to characterize a large number of homeowners association boards of directors. There are inadequate controls over the abuse of power by boards. Boards have little accountability and significant power. In most homeowners associations there is too little protection for minority opinions or rights. The business model and the organizational model we use for homeowners associations are woefully outmoded, based on the 16th century common law notion of how a fraternal society should be governed. The modern approach taken to more closely emulate local government, trying to mold homeowners associations into private pseudo-governments has met with little success. And it is simply wrong. Boards are not common councils, nor are they city councils, or county commissions. Boards are not mini-legislatures. We fail to understand that a home is not like a publicly traded stock than can be easily bought or sold. The lack of fungibility and marketability has an enormous impact on how we need to think about homeowners association governance. Most homeowners do not read covenants, nor understand the concept of a homeowners association. Lack of desire to be involved in the governance of homeowners associations by the majority of members is a fact of life. The Pareto principle applies to homeowners associations as it does to nearly every facet of economic and social life. We fail to understand that the association exists soley to serve and to provide value to homeowners, individually and collectively. We fail to understand that the primary duty of the board of directors is to homeowners, not to the corporate body. Lawyers and property managers have a vested interest in a power balance that favors strong association boards at the expense of homeowners, collectively and individually. CAI is the last place we should look for advice on good governance, organizational or management models. The vast majority of problems in homeowners associations occur as a result of the application of an ineffective organizational and governance model. Way too much of the discussion on HOATalk takes a descriptive, normative approach to management and to governance, rather than a proscriptive, positive approach. People are trying to solve problems based on how associations are currently governed, rather than how they should be governed. Accordingly, there is quite of bit of factual inaccuracy that is put forth on HOATalk and accepted as gospel. OK, now that about 2/3rds of the readers have stopped reading, I move into solutions. We need an entirely new way of thinking about the governance of common interest ownership developments. We need a new organizational model and a new business model. I advocate the adoption of the *policy governance model, with a healthy does of servant-leadership philosophy for members of the board of directors. Boards of directors have just three and only three governance functions. Everything else they do beyond these three function is something other than governance. It can, and should be delegated. And because boards seek to do more than they should be doing, it becomes the source of a great many problems found in homeowners associations. Make policy Assure compliance with policy Assure the financial health of the organization Boards should not be in the habit of meeting to make every management decision. Once proper policy has been established, boards should delegate management to elected officers. A well-functioning board need only meet quarterly. A board should serve as the appeal body, rather than an enforcement body. Boards should be versed in the concept of servant leadership. Before making a policy decision, each board member should ask, "What is in the best interest of the homeowners,"* rather than the more frequent question, "What is in the best interest of the association." Sometimes the answer to each of those questions leads to the same place. More frequently than not, the answers are quite different, and the association is taken to a place it should not go. 'Nuff said for now.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:292

08/06/2008 3:29 PM
Georgerwilliams {quote}Before making a policy decision, each board member should ask, "What is in the best interest of the homeowners," rather than the more frequent question, "What is in the best interest of the association." Sometimes the answer to each of those questions leads to the same place. More frequently than not, the answers are quite different, and the association is taken to a place it should not go. I do agree w/what you have said here. The HO's should come first when push comes to shove....This President has hired and fired 3 MC's and 7 landscapers in the 2 1/2 years the HO's (or should I say Board, HO have no say) have had control. She hires them, telling the HO's, she was so "highly impressed" and then a few months later she fines fault. Our Budget had already been set for the year but w/the new hiring we always end up over Budget. Then add the delinquent account not paid and now we are really in the hole financially. With each new hire the price has goes up (or at least she hires one that charges more.) What should be more inportant, the lawn service missing a few spots or forgetting to blow off a porch or the additional unafordable strain on the HO's purse. The worst thing this President ever did was fire and hire a new MC that charges double what we were paying. How can this be justified when the Association could net meet their expenses six week before the semi annual fees were due....This is why our Reserves were raided. Actually, I don't think this President was thinking about either the HO's are the Association. And this "PM" (other post-DBPR states she does not have a CAM license)keeps steering the President to her "people" for service (always higher priced. There are two (2) things that IMO are the most important changes the SS's need to make. 1) The Association fees must be placed in escrow, making our income a sure thing we can could on. Without this alloted money to count on, the only way to go is down. It will never be fair to force neighbors to pay for the deadbeats that will not honor the contract they signed into. 2) I know Board members are volunteers but they should be held accountible for the actions they take when they are knowingly and willingly applying their own rules and not excepting the CC&R's and SS as the rule of law...If a HO can't do this then the should not volunteer or step down from their position and let the community prosper. Allow our community to maintain it's property value and protect HO's investment. Just my opinion folks....

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2510

08/06/2008 4:24 PM
WOW and double WOW, I doubt there is anyone reading this two posts would agree with all or disagree with all, so maybe the answers are there they just need to be sorted out. I read both post with the words: agree, and: Disagree poping up like computer Po up notices. I also really would like someone to address this "Point of order thing." I doesn't seem to be that complicated to do, I am just wondering if we cm apply it to someof of our "pressing Problems" with our readers. Or wasn't the the reason for this Heading

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2316

08/06/2008 4:59 PM
Robert - a "Point of Order" is simply the way for a member to get the attention of the presiding officer at a meeting, to point out an error, and ask for consideration or correction about an issue. This alerts the members to either a breach in procedure or challenges the President to make a ruling or defend a procedure. When a member thinks there is a violation of the rules, this can be used. For example, if the Board were discussing a rule and made a motion, and a member thought that it was being applied in error or in conflict with the bylaw, a member could say, "Mr. Chairman, I rise to a Point of Order. The bylaw does not allow . . . ., The chair can then rule on that. (declare it out of order and remove the motion from consideration, or explain the rule and continue on.) I think that I suggested to someone to use it as the presiding officer moved into holding an election when the member had a problem with WHO was actually conducting the election (in this case, the hired property manager was handling ballots and proxies,counting ballots, etc.) My suggestion was to call a Point of Order about the procedure and request that the election be tallied by an independent Teller, appointed right then and there by the chair. Using the Point of Order is basic meeting parliamentary procedure AND is a tool for the members to make sure that the Board is following all procedures and not violating the rules - and makes them explain their actions - ALL recorded in the minutes!

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2316

08/06/2008 5:03 PM
George recommended: A well-functioning board need only meet quarterly. I agree; and this allows the Committees to meet more frequently, get their budget-approved activities completed, and report back to the Board with progress report in hand.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 12:37 AM
Posted By RobertR1 on 08/06/2008 4:24 PM WOW and double WOW, I doubt there is anyone reading this two posts would agree with all or disagree with all, so maybe the answers are there they just need to be sorted out. I read both post with the words: agree, and: Disagree poping up like computer Po up notices. I also really would like someone to address this "Point of order thing." I doesn't seem to be that complicated to do, I am just wondering if we cm apply it to some of our "pressing Problems" with our readers. Or wasn't the the reason for this Heading Hey, Robert. When my names appears on the subject line of the thread, I take it to mean I have the floor--er, soapbox--to talk about anything I want, for as long as I want. So there! I think Susan's answer is a good one. Yet, most homeowners associations conduct meetings much more informally, as they should, since they are not legislative bodies. And, as I said, if you rose for a point of order in most meetings, you would be viewed quizzically by most board members and audience. Modern business practice does not require us to adhere to the rules of 16-19th century parliamentary procedure. Such rules only come into play where there are minority interests present that need to be protected. (Since I am the sole owner of my corporation, when we have our annual board meeting--lawyer, accountant and me--it would be foolish to operate by Robert's Rules.) [Oh, boy, I did it again. Let the postings begin. . ]

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 1:39 AM
Sidney, You made my larger point as well as anyone when you wrote There are two (2) things that IMO are the most important changes the SS's need to make. 1) The Association fees must be placed in escrow, making our income a sure thing we can could on. Without this allocated money to count on, the only way to go is down. It will never be fair to force neighbors to pay for the deadbeats that will not honor the contract they signed into. 2) I know Board members are volunteers but they should be held accountable for the actions they take when they are knowingly and willingly applying their own rules and not excepting the CC&R's and SS as the rule of law...If a HO can't do this then the should not volunteer or step down from their position and let the community prosper. Allow our community to maintain it's property value and protect HO's investment. Your item (2) is particularly sensitive for me. I am wholly in favor of paying homeowner association board members (with proper controls of course). We pay our elected officials--even those that are only part time. (I bet I will get an earful about this.) Accountability is paramount. It sounds as if you are in a hellish situation, with no good options.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2510

08/07/2008 1:45 AM
George and Susan, Well we got the definition part pretty well sorted out. Not, how about the when to use it part. Seems lately, we have gotten some posters with deep concerns about how legal some of their Board and managment are operating. All this concern is about how to stop this illegal practices and right the boat. Can a "point of order" be used to flush the truth from some of these associations that operate behind a curtain. I am not pointing fingers and my purpose is open some closed doors and maybe stimulate the whole to go the right direction. And while here, maybe someone has some other suggestions geared to resolution of these common problems. I believe a lot of ill can be dissolved with communication. To this end I strongly recommend setting up as Web Site and playing it like a piano. I find it strange that none of our troubled posters recently picked up on that. It can work, I can attest to that, it has to be worked, it has to provide information. But those folks who get this thing rolling can do some significant things. For one, they can develope a e-mail mailing list. Now, tell me folks, is it better to reach 4 people sitting in on a Board meeting than it is to reach 400 people with an e-mail? Even I know the answer to that. You have to be careful if you are going to do it on your own, but it is not impossible. Use common sense, and if you don't have a web site for your association, offer to set one up for the Board in writing (IN WRITING). If a board is entrenched, they will have a fit, if they are open minded, they will agree to let you do it. In our case, they resisted and fussed and fumed and threatened death and distruction, but it opened anyway, and just by opening, has opened a lot of doors. But Lord, it took some dedicated few to get the job done and the process goes on. We started out with an open comments page, but then when the Board showed interest in setting up their own web Site, the two that set it up agreed to make in a Regime Web Site, but are still Web Masters. Took down the comments section to please board and now have majority on Board in favor of more open government and we will shortly get more open in the WebSite again with a comments section. Throughout all this, there was always a section that allowed any member to voice specific concerns to a Board Member that was strong enough to take problems to the Board that way. But, much better for direct open communications to the Board and back to the members from the Board, That will come soon. It the end, will all this change this "apathy" that effects nearly all associations? Don't know, but it worth a shot.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 2:09 AM
Robert, If you use a "point of order" keep in mind that it is an incidental motion, that it is not debatable, and that is is ruled on by the presiding officer. Homeowners want their homes to be respites from the stresses of the world around them. They don't want them to be the cause of stress. My, albeit limited, observations of homeowners associations statewide suggests that people are generally long suffering. They will put up with some fairly egregious board abuses before choosing to even think about acting. Only a very small proportion of homeowners will ever get riled up enough to take action. And they will be viewed by others, not as heroes, but as troublemakers, as malcontents. Condos and co-ops seem to have more active and engaged owners, but not always. Single family, detached home associations have the least active owners (typically). Communication, as you accurately observe, is the either the problem or symptom, and the solution. Boards are notoriously bad at communicating with members. Sometimes they are downright secretive. Board use their control of information to manipulate, to retain power, to control complaints, and to avoid accountability. The notion of transparency and servant leadership among homeowner association boards is rare, indeed. An independent website and a forum for posting is a good vehicle to help get the word out. But still, you will only reach about 20-40 percent of the affected homeowners. When I hear the word apathy, I see an absence of good communication.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2510

08/07/2008 2:24 AM
Time to get up George and get cracking..........Yeah right! My latest personal "hot Button" is this: I am sure you have caused a lot of changes in your HOA and after living here, for 19 years I think I have had some influence. Starting there,how do we consider what we have done when we futurize about our associations. It seems evident that once a direction is energized by God knows what, the associations just keep going on and on like The energizer Bunny. Marching down the roard beating a drum and doing the same thing over and over, especially their mistakes. It take an earthquake to change direction and when that happens the process starts again. I just hope that any influence I have or had will be productive and sucessful, because it will probably take another earthquake to change the direction we pushed this Big Marshmallow.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 2:51 AM
We think alike, my friend. Fourteen years ago, our homeowners association got off on the wrong foot, because of grossly incompetent board members. As a result, today the association is doing the very same wrong-headed things. Board members have no experience. Therefore, they think that the way things have been done in the past is the right way to do them. So they continue it. Our neighborhood is stuck in time, the way it was 14 years ago when the developer left. No new investment, just mediocre maintenance. No changes. Kinda sad. The best current strategy, I believe, is to marginalize the board, by completely ignoring them (to the extent that is possible). Pay dues, and ignore them completely. When people pay attention to them, it just energizes them. It will take time, but at some point they will lose interest. Indeed, the less the board does, the better managed the association is. It is surprising how much can get done in the neighborhood by working with neighbors apart from the homeowners association. We have repaired potholes, improved landscaping, organized a neighborhood watch fought off nearby zoning changes and development, and helped modify the design of a nearby intersection, adding bus turnouts and sidewalks. Because of my work in public policy, I was asked by the board secretary to stand for election (I will never run for office) to the board. I said I would be honored to do so, but with two preconditions: (1) the number of official nominees would be equal to the number of board slots to be filled--this should never be a political process with winners and losers; and (2) I would only serve if I were elected president or treasurer. I would intend to be active and to make a difference. You know the result. I was not an "official" nominee. Existing board members were re-elected with a vote of just 10 percent of the total eligible voting. Yawn.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:292

08/07/2008 6:09 AM
Robert1 {quote}"To this end I strongly recommend setting up as Web Site and playing it like a piano. I find it strange that none of our troubled posters recently picked up on that. It can work, I can attest to that, it has to be worked, it has to provide information. But those folks who get this thing rolling can do some significant things. For one, they can develope a e-mail mailing list. Now, tell me folks, is it better to reach 4 people sitting in on a Board meeting than it is to reach 400 people with an e-mail? Even I know the answer to that. You have to be careful if you are going to do it on your own, but it is not impossible." Robert, I would love to have a web site, mainly because out of our 77 Townhouse units, we only have 15/16 actual HO's living in the community and only half of those go to a meeting and again only half of those contribute anything to the community. As treasurer, I could not set up a web site but on every post about doing so there is a warning of just what can be posted. (the truth about what is going on in the community) The Board would never set up a site (because they would have no nothing to say about except their failures)Besides the CC&R's, they could add nothing. After 2 1/2 years the Board has set no policies, no collection policy, no violations policy, no additional rules and regulations. They could tell the HO's, "we didn't send out the increase in your association fees with the at least 30 notice because we knew there would be to many complaints" All we received was an invoice w/the increase 10 days before due, no explanation of why the increase. They could tell the HO's, "we have taken money from the Reserves to meet expenses because we hired new vendors that are charging more then our Budget called for." So far 7 landscapers, each higher. They could tell the HO's, " we will be increasing your association fees again and there will be the necessity for a "Special Assessment because we hired a new MC that charges double what we were paying and what the Budget allowed." They could tell the HO's, we are sorry the fountain in the lake has been broken for over a year but we have no money to have it fixed because we have hired service help that cost more then our Budget called for. They could tell the HO's, that we haven't funded the Reserve Account in over a year for the same reason as above. They could tell the HO's, our taxes were filed late and w/o vendor W-9's, Well, because this new MC we hired for double the cost didn't file them on time and simply didn't ask vendors to fill our the W-9's. They could tell the HO's, that our delinquent accounts, some dating back over two years are so high and so many because we have never written a collection policy and we have no money for an attorney (same reason as above) They could tell the HO's, we have never fertilized the lawn and that is why there have only weeds growing. Sorry about the mounds of fire ants too. They could tell the HO's, we're sorry about the looks of the park but 2 years ago, we had a HO's take up all the borders from our plant beds and the path to the pier and remove all the dead or sickly shurbs (because of neglect)Again, we are sorry nothing has been replaced. They could tell the HO's, we are sorry we didn't read our insurance policy, our new Treasurer (me) actually read it and saw that there was only 30 units insured and we have 77...this will be costing the HO's an additional $1542. dollars that was not Budgeted for...So much for our new double chare MC. This could go on and on and on.... honestly, I cannot think of one (1) thing this President and her hand picked Board has done that is positive for the community....The few actual HO's we have on the property will not volunteer. Because of no newsletter or information, they assume everything is doing fine (financially). So because of this, no one is running against the standing Board, they remain in POWER/CONTROL. They will continue to ignore the CC&R's and the FL.SS... WHY??? simply because there is no accountibility....I have been fighting them since day one and this is why I am a thorn in their side and labeled a trouble maker....I finally got back on the Board with the help of proxy's (the President refused to let me volunteer when there was an opening) And now I have 4/5 HO's helping me w/this fight. Hopefully with going after proxy's again, come Jan. we can make a change. As usual, I am sorry this was so long. I am just very passionate about this, once I get going I can't quit. I'm sorry. So tell me how would a web site help, if the truth cannot be published. I suppose this is why they do not send newsletters.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 6:32 AM
Posted By SidneyP on 08/07/2008 6:09 AM As usual, I am sorry this was so long. I am just very passionate about this, once I get going I can't quit. Your passion and frustration and determination is evident. Sometimes one has to recognize the uncomfortable truth that there is no easy or simple solution. But don't let that stop you. I know of one situation in which property values actually declined because of board malfeasance. Yet what surprised me is that homeowners--mostly part year residents--didn't really care. They would only learn that their homes were worth less when then decided to sell, and then it would be too late. In situations like yours, I wonder what is motivating the board to act in that way? Are they so power hungry that they don't see the problem of poor management? Is it a control/power thing for them? Are they simply grossly incompetent? Or do they see board service as a kind of king of the castle game, in which they are the powerful lairds and all the rest are just crofters. Maybe this is something that enhances their ego. Or maybe they see board service as simply a social event, a reason for a like-minded group of people to get together occasionally. Sometimes, fighting back only strengthens them. It means that somebody actually cares what they are doing, and they have to fortify their castle against the invaders. You are facing a tough situation. You may be tilting at windmills, but don't stop.

GeraldT4

Posts:934

08/07/2008 7:01 AM
GeorgerwilliamsW - Wonderful post!! Just differ in opinion with a couple observations. 1) A well-functioning board need only meet quarterly? This may be good policy for a well established association, and it's wonderful in theory. However, newly constructed associations often require very frequent meetings. Additionally, a board will be dysfunctional regardless of its frequency of meetings. 2) Before making a policy decision each board should ask all owners rather than themselves for opinion. In order to know what is in the best interests of the association, ask the association rather than yourself.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:768

08/07/2008 7:17 AM
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/07/2008 7:01 AM GeorgerwilliamsW - Wonderful post!! Just differ in opinion with a couple observations. 1) A well-functioning board need only meet quarterly? This may be good policy for a well established association, and it's wonderful in theory. However, newly constructed associations often require very frequent meetings. Additionally, a board will be dysfunctional regardless of its frequency of meetings. 2) Before making a policy decision each board should ask all owners rather than themselves for opinion. In order to know what is in the best interests of the association, ask the association rather than yourself. No disagreement at all. Good points. A board may even have to meet weekly at first. Rules and policies need (1) broad homeowner input and (2) time for consideration and debate. The board should use due diligence and deliberation. That is where good communication comes in--both getting the message out, and making it easy to get it back in. It also brings up another point I didn't include: because boards are not legislative bodies, they should not see their function as representing homeowners. Board members need to use their "best judgment" to decide when to use their "best judgment" or seek homeowner input in making a decision.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:292

08/07/2008 7:43 AM
Gerald--"Additionally, a board will be dysfunctional regardless of its frequency of meetings. 2) Before making a policy decision each board should ask all owners rather than themselves for opinion. In order to know what is in the best interests of the association, ask the association rather than yourself." Couldn't have said that better myself...Our Board does not ask the HO's for their opinion and the never tell us what they are planning. Ho's know nothing until after the fact.

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