PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/06/2008 12:38 PM |
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well...I'd like to add Realtors, and Mortgage Brokers...
Sorry to offend, but there it is!
What happened to this chain...Where did we go wrong! |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/06/2008 12:40 PM |
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We needed a break. Everyone to their "time out corners" |
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/06/2008 12:47 PM |
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OK Nanny Donna....
May I stay there for the rest of the day? |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/06/2008 1:12 PM |
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Pat,
NO! you may not. Seems to me that you have a bad guy to straighten out. We are all waitng here to hear the results. Keep on a plugging after this dude. |
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/06/2008 1:23 PM |
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OK...I'll keep you posted....
The corner was nice while it lasted.... |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:768
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| 08/06/2008 2:11 PM |
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Posted By DonnaS on 08/06/2008 12:29 PM
Pat, Do I add more fuel to this fire? Try used car salesmen. We have a saying up here---"Lawyers are like a bunch of bananas-- They are crooked, yellow and hang around in bunches"
Please--no lawyer responses cause I did not make this one up. Just trying to lighten up the mood. Oooooooh, I like that one. I have not heard it before. I just sent it to my attorney. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/06/2008 2:52 PM |
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George,
You mean he USED to be your attorney. |
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GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)
Posts:768
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| 08/06/2008 3:10 PM |
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Posted By DonnaS on 08/06/2008 2:52 PM
George,
You mean he USED to be your attorney.
Heck no! She had not heard it either. (It takes a while for jokes to get to Hoosierland. We're kinda' slow. Still use two cans and a string.)
She just e-mailed me that she loved it and passed it along to her partners and associates in the office. Now watch it get around. . .
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:1190
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| 08/06/2008 4:47 PM |
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I am not surprised in the least that the association lawyer said you couldn't deny the pool because of the dues. What I am surprised about is that anyone would take the advice of this forum over that of their attorney. If you don't trust the attorney, then get a new one.
As it has already been pointed our your documents probably cover the basis of approval for ARC submissions. And it is highly doubtful that not paying your dues is a reason to deny the ARC submission. While it might not be a bad idea, you can't fix that in time for this round.
You may want to consider an amendment that would make being paid on dues and fines is a requirement for ARC consideration. Otherwise all applications will be administratively denied. But this is something you have to put in the documents. You might be able to swing this through a Board policy. But run it by the lawyer first. And if he isn't sure it would hold, then you would be wise to make an amendment to the documents. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:2316
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| 08/06/2008 5:20 PM |
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I think you should follow the advice of the Board's lawyer - who, I am sure, logged the time it took to figure out an answer, so you will get a bill for his recommendation.
But . . . get it in writing.
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/06/2008 6:47 PM |
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We will go with the rec. of the attorney...Like it or not.
But since he is 40 days from foreclosure due to nonpayment of dues....time will tell.
Can you get a pool in in 40 days...not in FloriDuh |
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MaryA1
(Arizona)
Posts:2498
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| 08/07/2008 8:28 AM |
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Posted By MicheleD on 08/06/2008 8:36 AM
Definitely lien him, but curious, here's what our CC&Rs say about "in-ground pool" approvals:
"(d) No aboveground swimming pools shall be erected or placed on any lot in XXXXXXX. In-ground swimming pools design and placement must be approved in writing by the Architectural Committee, which approval shall be within the sole and absolute discretion of the Architectural Committee and may be arbitrarily and unreasonably withheld."
One of the Rules the ARC COMM has established is that any requests from homeowners not in good standing may be denied.
Michelle,
I don't know that would hold up in court unless your docs say the same thing. I'm talking about the provision which deals with taking away privileges for being delinquent or in violation of the CCRs. Usually its just loss of the privilege to use the amenities. Even though the A/C may have the power to make rules governing their actions; they cannot make a rule that would be contrary to the CCRs. At least, that's my opinion!
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1866
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| 08/07/2008 8:37 AM |
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It does say the same thing.
Sort of.
". . . which approval shall be within the sole and absolute discretion of the Architectural Committee and may be arbitrarily and unreasonably withheld."
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GeraldT4
Posts:934
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| 08/07/2008 8:38 AM |
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| MicheleD - I thought HOA's and committees were supposed to NOT be arbitrary and unreasonable? |
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1866
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| 08/07/2008 8:40 AM |
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hehee.
I guess unless the governing docs say they can be!
Personally, I think it is a "reasonable" rule that one must be in good standing. This includes not only up-to-date on assessments, but having no outstanding violations, either.
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GeraldT4
Posts:934
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| 08/07/2008 8:51 AM |
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| MicheleD - Oh, believe me I agree with you on the good standing. I think a better way to handle it would be to process the ARC application and state that if approved owner implementation can only commence once they are in good standing with dues. Or something to that effect. I also feel that if an owner is in arrears and contemplating an expense that requires the association approval, the association would not be exercising good business judgment, or fulfilling it's fiduciary duty to the membership by permitting the expense prior to getting paid. My hard line approach is that an association should not be accustomed to accommodating thieves such as those not current in maintenance. |
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/07/2008 9:12 AM |
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| We are awaiting the formal ARC request.... |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/07/2008 9:29 AM |
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Gerald,
That would be a good item to put into either the ARC standards or guidelines, whatever they call them, to ensure that dues are paid before an approval would be granted, especially with the grand scale of the expense.
I have to write that and send it down to Florida for the ARC guideline manuel that I wrote for my former developement. It's just something that should be common sense but we know where that goes sometimes. Thanks. It can be added to the guidelines by just printing it out and getting a copy to all members as this is a Board committee and they have the right to add and delete items as long as they do not change any CC&Rs |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 08/07/2008 10:00 AM |
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"One of the Rules the ARC COMM (sic) has established is that any requests from homeowners not in good standing may be denied." How and why is an ARC privy to this information? I would expect that this "rule" could be challenged as being beyond the power and scope of an ARC.
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 08/07/2008 10:05 AM |
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PatR.... WOW !! What a mess with this pool business...now may I offer you some suggestions...... I live in a gated HOA here in Florida..I also sit on the Building Commitee... I suggested some changes to our Rules that we implemented that seem to work here...
1.... A $1500.00 refundable damage deposit is required upon approval of construction..The homeowner fills out an amenity ticket at the office.This covers any damages any sub may create to any of our roads here...Pictures are taken the DAY BEFORE any sub arrives on the property.. Of course in your situation he is in arrears so you could deny on those grounds.I know we would here..
2.... Because we are gated and let's stay in the time it takes the HO to get permits etc. and they SHOULD become behind in dues or get get some sort of infraction, we would not let the subcontractors access to the common property ( ie ROADS ) until said dues were paid or violation addressed...
Hopefully this will help you.....
Now on a side note...Here in Florida Building Depts DO NOT enforce HOA Guidelines with regards to their rules...SO if this person wanted to go apply for a pool permit he could and the BD has to issue one..SO it's time for your HOA Arc to have a quick meeting and implement NEW RULES which you can do and get the ball rolling..not only because of this situation but any other situation that may arise.....
Keep us informed
LindaC3 |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/07/2008 10:31 AM |
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Linda,
I think that your Rule #2 would be not legal. The HOA does not have the authority nor right to lock out contractors because of an owners infraction. If the contractors would be named on the deed, then yes. You have to be careful with ingress and egress, even for the member not in good standing so a lock out would be IMO, an illegal move on the Boards part.
Yes, the ARC can sit down right now, write a new rule about NO PERMITS TO MEMBERS IN AREARS WITH DUES. It is required by Statutes that any rule changes MUST be in the hands of the members 14 days prior to it getting voted into the rules or guidelines. THIS IS THE LAW!!! If you enacted them other than this way, then you did not follow the Statutes. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/07/2008 10:36 AM |
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Harold,
You are correct somewhat that this members dues being in arears would not be ARC business to worry about. It would be the Boards responsibility to inform the ARC, that such a permit must be put on hold until the dues are paid in full. But that is not until the rule is voted on after proper notification to the members (14 days prior to vote by Board) |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 08/07/2008 10:48 AM |
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DonnaS......Rule #2 is legal according to our attorney..the simple fact that the subs ARE NOT on the deed allows us the right to deny them access to the property....We are a gated subdivision and there for all must go thru the gate.... We would NEVER deny a member access or ingress to the property NOW that would be illegal..
And yes we did the 14 day thing here with all our new rules...... It took us MONTHS to go thru all the archaic rules they had out here...... I especially pushed for the deposit thing becaue our roads are shell road/ dirt and those big trucks were always leaving BIG RUTS which made driving thru here dangerous..If one of the commitee members are home ( which is usually me ) we will go and personally escort the subs n large trucks....say concrete and truss delivery to the job site so they do not meander around the property..
We had an incident here a few years ago with someone ( sub) poaching and killing our deer...SICKO .....They will BANNED from working here for forever.........
One question I had forgotten to ask PatR......What is the amount of your HOA dues monthly to let this person get 5K behind......Here we are at $160.00 a month and if at the end of 120 days our attorney sends a collection letter and if the HO fails to come to some agreement then they are filed against in the court house.. 5K is a lot to be behind!!!!!
Donna...hope you enjoying being in Tenn...... Same old down here in Florida and over in Martin...... I am sure you stay in touch with the news thru tcpalm.com ???
LindaC3 |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/07/2008 11:00 AM |
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Linda,
Thanks for answering my questions and glad to see that you guys did your homework. It takes time to do things right and knee jerk reactions to situations like this usually fail to work right. Good job
As for the "sickos", I had the impression that almost all of Florida young people respected Mother Nature and her creatures but I found out that there still are and always will be rotten deeds done to creatures. I saved many a big turtle from our frontage road and got a few thank you fingers for doing so. I am in touch regularly doing Docs research forone of my rentals in Martin Co. You are PSL? if I remember |
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/07/2008 11:14 AM |
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We are almost $1000 a quarter....
We, of course are in trouble now (150,000) in past due fees.
People are hurting, but expect their neighbors to still pay to support the amenities.
We cut security, and landscaping will be next.
Tough times.... |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 08/07/2008 11:16 AM |
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DonnaS...... I am anal retentive when it comes to crossing the T's and dotting the I's...... We have worked very hard on our docs to bring them into some sort of compliance here...Seems in years past the BOD had gotten very lazy about this...We even have paperwork that needs to be signed and notarized by the HO before any construction may commence...
BTW...I finally left PSL and moved out full time to our home in Ft Drum...11 miles south of Yeehaw Junction on 441...LOVE IT HERE !! Quiet and no crime..can sleep with drs and windows open and see all the stars at night..... LindaC3 |
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PatR
(Florida)
Posts:139
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| 08/07/2008 11:21 AM |
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| I'm driving to Linda's home....Doors are open woohoo! |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2948
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| 08/07/2008 11:22 AM |
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Linda,
Good for you and Ditto to our parts of Tn. Better quality of life, |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1466
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| 08/07/2008 11:24 AM |
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| While the building department will not uphold the Covenants they do want their piece of the pie so the minute you see dirt being moved I would be on the phone the code enforcement people to make sure there is a building permit. If not they will be happy to pay this person a visit and shut the project down until all of the i's are dotted and the t's crossed and most importantly they have their permit fee. |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 08/07/2008 11:24 AM |
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Posted By PatR on 08/07/2008 11:14 AM We are almost $1000 a quarter....
We, of course are in trouble now (150,000) in past due fees.
People are hurting, but expect their neighbors to still pay to support the amenities.
We cut security, and landscaping will be next.
Tough times
PatR....your BOD is doing a major disservice to all who live there for failing to follow thru and file for non payment.. If you have a PM/ Attorney , I would suggest that you contact them and follow thru with filing for these monies...Why would your BOD allow this to escalate to this amount.....OUTRAGEOUS !!!
I know that back when my husband was out of work for MONTHS we went to the office and talked with them and worked out a plan to at least show a good faith effort that we were just not ignoring our debt... It worked out real well and we got caught up and I followed thru with my promise to pay 3 months in advance when we got back on track....I would never expect for others to pay my way thru life.... Your BOD needs to quickly get a handle on this and then attack the problem of a HO wanting to build a pool..I would say that's the least of your problems at this point.....
LindaC3 |
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