Threats in regards to rule enforcement.

Started by NicoleO4 • 25 replies • 1239 views

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NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

We have a board member who was cited last month with a monthly walk through that our management company does. All infractions are prevewied by the currently board and the majority ruled on this one infraction. ( the board member has not been active in 2 months and was looking at foreclosure or a quick sale)

The board majority on this voted to send a letter to him just like we do with everyone else this past month. The issue is that the MC misquoted the exact rule that was being broken. It wasn't specific and we as a whole awknowlege this to the homeowner/board member. His original citation still stands despite the wrong reference by the MC. However the board /member who was cited has been emailing the board on a dialy basis with threats of going door to door in attempt to have the currentl board recalled on this, to relay which members did the the walk through with the MC and what steps can be taken to remove all 5 of us.

THe only person who has engaged in email with this person is our HOA Pres to keep it simple Do you have any great advice other than this board member can do what he sees fit, but in the end his violation is well documented and majority agrees on the enforcement ?

( I'd rather not state what rule or what he did due to past responses arguing to turn a head to this issue, so please thank you in advance for NOT asking )

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

OK - so the MC misquoted the exact citation in the letter. Quickly, another one should have been sent out with the corrected version.

End of that.

Treat this Board member like any other citizen. If he is harassing people, he needs to stop. Since your president is the only one talking to him (good idea!) he/she can tell this person to correct his violation and be quiet.

All other board members need to block emails from this person.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Susan thanks for the input! I would like to say that your suggestion of the redone letter has been done. The board member is persistant with his mass emailings to our board members telling them that despite the correction he feels that he is not the only one who got a mis quaoted letter and that all letters are null and void... and that our rules are invented and not actually viable.

It's just an unusual circumstance. The email interactoin is only being handled by the President, however wer are all being cc'd on all.

There has been alot of Davis Sterling Act references and we as a board are bound to serve accordingly.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Nicole,
Are we talking about what you can do or about what the board can do?
I think you personally are doing what is right, and I think the president ought to join you. Let him rant all he wants, if it becomes abusive or he gets personal with any owner or a board member, take him to court. I would assume you have access to legal advice...........take it, and move on.
Hope that he sues you but don't give him a reason. Keep all his correspondence none of the he said, she said stuff unless he threatens anyone and then you will need support. If you haven't, send him a registered letter that the Board stands ready to meet with him in a public forum that will be recorded. Bring the problem up to the floor, open it up for discussion. Limit all speakers to a realistic time limit. And announce the meeting as an information meeting and as such no action will be taken by the board but a report of the meeting will be sent to ll owners, ASAP.

But most of the above if you as a board feel it suits your purpose as a reaction to something he might do that is over the wall.

Right now, I think he is pretty much leading the band, or thinks he is, and he is causing a row, which is his intent. But as I just made up, from watching cowboy and indian movies as a kid: You only want to hold on to a flaming arrow so long, then you better shoot it or drop it. That may come to him.

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Nicole - as others have mentioned, your board is handling this the right way. At this point, I would even suggest that your President just drop the matter. It sounds like the letter was just a "Reminder" type of letter and didn't carry a fine with it, so this guy is just ranting about nothing.

And it's not all that unusual. I've been through similar experiences with homeowners a couple of times (fairly minor infraction noted, homeowner acts like we are trying to take their home away). I wouldn't be surprised if we all have. After a couple of responses to let them know that the first letter is just a Reminder about the issue (and maybe point out that the problem still needs to be corrected), I'll just let the matter drop until the next drive/walk through. If the problem still doesn't get corrected, the board eventually will have to decide if the issue should be escalated to more severe steps.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

I would also recommend that your president stop "feeding the troll." The person will probably continue to rant and rave as long as he gets attention from it. I would continue to treat him as you would any other member of the association. If there was a fine, make sure you neither are more or less strict on the issue.

As a note, I am never opposed to sending a letter or postcard telling a person they have a violation that needs corrected. I would totally support the idea of doing so the morning after trash day for any late cans. And even little issues can become something worth fining for if it is done often enough.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Dwight and Kirk,
Reason prevails, peace descends. Both good thoughtful posts.

I especially like, "Stop feeding the troll." Can I borrow that? Here it seems especially true and remembering some of the story, a modern day copy cat.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Nicole:

I agree with everyone on here...what he is doing is making veiled threats at your board to get them to back down and he wants to play a game of chicken. Since a revised violation has been sent treat him like any other citizen.

Let him rant and rave, as long as it doesn't become abusive or harassment let him spew his junk. Keep copies of all correspondence and tell your President to please stop answering his emails.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

BradP,
Point of order, kinda.

Is it the best thing for the President to just stop sending e-mails or answering his e-mails.

I suggest it is not. The President should inform this "Troll" he will not discuss the specific issue with him. Open the door with a statement that the Board Meetings are the place to reach resolution of this, and the Board stands ready to hear THIS ISSUE as soon as it can be added to the agenda, upon his request.

Inform him, he is still and will always be considered by the Board to be a vested owner in the organization, and the board is available to any other concerns he may hay.

Something like that.

SeanM (California)
Posts: 2

Posted:

he has got to go

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Boards,

Sean's remark brought this to my mind. And this is no attempt to criticize Sean at all.

I just wonder if enough has been sid on this forum in trying to understand how Board members feel about their job.

First, I don't think it helps the Boards to belive no one cares. But I can understand how they might feel that way. It is certainly a rewarding job, if you get lucky and get some help. But it is not an easy job unless you happen to be genetically programed to always say and do the right thing. So, that makes it a job of the good and the bad. When you consider our meager attempt to create some order, it suggests the folks that would benefit from all our verbiage (Webster says: superfluity of words usually of little or obscure content)are not the kind of people that would be likely to post here. I don't think the Boards defend themselves with much vigor. Do you think it is because they have already tuned us out as a member of the "Troll" family, and they won't tread down our path and get abused. But, do we abuse them or misunderstand them, jury still out there. But this is meandering and has no claim to validity.

Are we serving the mandate as defined by HoaTalk? Pretty steep order to open a public forum and expect only the Boards to respond, so Community Leaders is added. That still seems narrow so they let things operate as long as decorum is kept, and after nearly posting 2000 times I can only recall one or two times Hoatalk had to step in. That is a fine record for my money.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Robert:

I should have qualified my statement, I meant the president should stop returning emails unless it is on a new subject that has merit to HOA business.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

I have to admit, I am still very confused by Nicole's questions and concerns.

I am especially so after her comment that no one is to ask what the infractions were, "due" according to her "due to past responses arguing to turn a head to this issue."

I honestly can't think of a single person here who has ever suggested that board members "ignore" infractions, regardless of who it is with the violation, so that little comment was completely uncalled for.

This seems pretty straight-forward to me and I'm really scratching my head over what the issue is.

The PM sent a violation notice that listed the wrong violation.

So a corrected version gets sent out, which Nicole says has already been done.

In the meantime a grumpy person is blustering and bluffing because he didn't like getting his wrists smacked, regardless of what the "infraction" was.

So he's doing what many cranky residents do when they get a letter from the HOA, he just happens to be a board member.

The president was exactly correct in being the point person in the contact with him. The other board members should simply delete the emails and move along. Nothing to see here; the president is handling it, the other board members should be deferring to the president and just simply take the oxygen out his bluster by deleting the ill-advised emails he's sending. My grandkids eventually get over their tantrums, too, after no one pays any attention to them anymore.

I mean, what "great advice" are you looking for? You answered you own question that he is certainly free to do whatever he "sees fit," and that the violation is well-documented.

What more is there?

Threaten him back?

He'll either comply or he won't.

If he doesn't comply, the violation process goes to the next stage.

The president need only remind him of the obligation of all homeowners to follow the CC&Rs and thank him for prompt compliance.

She/he should send one final email letting him know that he needs to follow the prescribed process for appeal, in the meantime he needs to stop sending the emails. If he doesn't, then he doesn't and it's more fodder for the paper trail. But beyond that, no more communication to him is necessary outside of your HOA's prescribed violation appeal process.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 08/04/2008 9:28 AM
BradP,
Point of order, kinda.

Is it the best thing for the President to just stop sending e-mails or answering his e-mails.

I suggest it is not. The President should inform this "Troll" he will not discuss the specific issue with him. Open the door with a statement that the Board Meetings are the place to reach resolution of this, and the Board stands ready to hear THIS ISSUE as soon as it can be added to the agenda, upon his request.

Inform him, he is still and will always be considered by the Board to be a vested owner in the organization, and the board is available to any other concerns he may hay.

Something like that.

Thank you for your kind responses. I am clearly concerned about his voiced threats of going door to door and try to have a recall if you will of the current board ( 5 people now not including him ) . I know it would take alot for this to happen and I know that many people have past issues with this person. ( His overall reputation isn't so great in the community is one of not well adjusted, his actions may only add to this)

As far as legality there is nothing he can do as he is clearly breaking our own rules..

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 08/04/2008 1:33 PM
I have to admit, I am still very confused by Nicole's questions and concerns.

I am especially so after her comment that no one is to ask what the infractions were, "due" according to her "due to past responses arguing to turn a head to this issue."

I honestly can't think of a single person here who has ever suggested that board members "ignore" infractions, regardless of who it is with the violation, so that little comment was completely uncalled for.

This seems pretty straight-forward to me and I'm really scratching my head over what the issue is.

The PM sent a violation notice that listed the wrong violation.

So a corrected version gets sent out, which Nicole says has already been done.

In the meantime a grumpy person is blustering and bluffing because he didn't like getting his wrists smacked, regardless of what the "infraction" was.

So he's doing what many cranky residents do when they get a letter from the HOA, he just happens to be a board member.

The president was exactly correct in being the point person in the contact with him. The other board members should simply delete the emails and move along. Nothing to see here; the president is handling it, the other board members should be deferring to the president and just simply take the oxygen out his bluster by deleting the ill-advised emails he's sending. My grandkids eventually get over their tantrums, too, after no one pays any attention to them anymore.

I mean, what "great advice" are you looking for? You answered you own question that he is certainly free to do whatever he "sees fit," and that the violation is well-documented.

What more is there?

Threaten him back?

He'll either comply or he won't.

If he doesn't comply, the violation process goes to the next stage.

The president need only remind him of the obligation of all homeowners to follow the CC&Rs and thank him for prompt compliance.

She/he should send one final email letting him know that he needs to follow the prescribed process for appeal, in the meantime he needs to stop sending the emails. If he doesn't, then he doesn't and it's more fodder for the paper trail. But beyond that, no more communication to him is necessary outside of your HOA's prescribed violation appeal process.

I don't think her question was out of line, we have others ask the same thing on here. It can be intimidating and scary to have someone threaten things. Unless you are a lawyer or are well versed in HOA law it would seem to me to be a reasonable question on how to handle this. There are many people on here who have dealt with this type of thing and can give her great insight on how to potentially handle what could be a volatile situation.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BradP on 08/04/2008 4:37 PM

Thanks Brad, this one has been on my back like white on rice for while now.. lol

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

I simple search of this forum will reveal several topics related to yours....never hurts to ask advice IMO

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Nicole,
I may be reading some of this wrong Nicole, and I am assuming you are not the President, but if this guy makes any move that you consider threatening to you personally, you first approach your President and express your concerns. If he brushes you off, contact each board member and express your views. I have never had the occasion to run up against this, but one thing I know, the association MUST protect the Board members in their duties and MUST not allow any personal attacks on any member. If it concerns board business and this clearly does, if necessary, walk into any police station and register your concerns.
Do not allow this to keep building up, don't abet it, don't discuss it and don't write about it, other than as an official private concern.

This man is not acting rational, if we are getting the message clear. If, and I really don't need an answer, you are feeling personally uncomfortable, react.

Don't give one seconds thought about whether he can recall the Board, either he can or he can't, it has nothing to do with you. Neither does how he does it, boards come and go, some good, some bad. Trust the judgement of your owners, they are not brain deed, after all they elected you all. Well, maybe they didn't actually and you all were elected by 51 % and had to fight for that, but he has a bigger mountain to climb, he probably has to get a super majority and any sitting board worth anything can expect almost 40% because they are incumbants.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 08/04/2008 4:45 PM
Nicole,
I may be reading some of this wrong Nicole, and I am assuming you are not the President, but if this guy makes any move that you consider threatening to you personally, you first approach your President and express your concerns. If he brushes you off, contact each board member and express your views. I have never had the occasion to run up against this, but one thing I know, the association MUST protect the Board members in their duties and MUST not allow any personal attacks on any member. If it concerns board business and this clearly does, if necessary, walk into any police station and register your concerns.
Do not allow this to keep building up, don't abet it, don't discuss it and don't write about it, other than as an official private concern.

This man is not acting rational, if we are getting the message clear. If, and I really don't need an answer, you are feeling personally uncomfortable, react.

Don't give one seconds thought about whether he can recall the Board, either he can or he can't, it has nothing to do with you. Neither does how he does it, boards come and go, some good, some bad. Trust the judgement of your owners, they are not brain deed, after all they elected you all. Well, maybe they didn't actually and you all were elected by 51 % and had to fight for that, but he has a bigger mountain to climb, he probably has to get a super majority and any sitting board worth anything can expect almost 40% because they are incumbants.

NO, I am not the president, but the person who is threatening the entire board is the Vice President. His issues will be addressed at our next meeting which is very soon. WIll keep you all updated... the outcome will a good one I am most positive of. THis threatner as I could call him is a lone person. Nobody on the board supports his cause and all are being threatend with the door to door shinanegans.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BradP on 08/04/2008 4:37 PM

I don't think her question was out of line, we have others ask the same thing on here. It can be intimidating and scary to have someone threaten things. Unless you are a lawyer or are well versed in HOA law it would seem to me to be a reasonable question on how to handle this. There are many people on here who have dealt with this type of thing and can give her great insight on how to potentially handle what could be a volatile situation.

Thanks Brad, this one has been on my back like white on rice for while now.. lol

I didn't say her question was out of line, I said her accusations that people said things they didn't do was uncalled for.

And it was.

But I do question some of her "questions."

She posts questions to which she already knows the answers.

In fact, she posts her own answers.

And. Nicole, you are, yet again, dead wrong.

What I think that you are "reading" in my "on you like white on rice" is that I have apparently touched a nerve or triggered a button -- or seen through your guise??

I have been nothing but upfront and frank with you and have not only offered what I believe is constructive criticism, but have repeatedly wished you the best and sincere positive outcome in your goals.

I just am very convinced, now more than ever, that you are not only not being honest with us, but with yourself as well.

Now, you may see that as "mean," but it's not meant to be. Each and every time I suggested you search your motives, I was sincere.

That's what you have an issue with me over, and no matter what, every time a read a new "concern" I sense that same issue.

For your review from another post that I made to you:

"
But I do sense a strong, personal vendetta here. It will get uglier before it gets worked out if not kept in check. If some of us can sense it miles and internet cables away, it's probably much more evident up-close and personal.

I'm sincere when I wish her luck in her efforts.

But I'm also sincere that she needs to sit down with herself and ask herself if she is keeping things at the professional level and not letting her emotions override good sense.

Just an observation and suggestion. Not an indictment or personal attack. "

Now, this guy is most likely a pain in the a**, but you already knew that, and you already have a resolution or answers to your "concerns" and you know that he will be taken care of, so, I must ask again, what is the real motive for this particular thread, I mean beyond just venting about the bum?

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 08/04/2008 5:28 PM

Thanks Brad, this one has been on my back like white on rice for while now.. lol

CAN YOU PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE? Really can't you just move along Michele? I mean every post I put up you are so there with comments or asking my motive. Why is it that you feel the need to do this? Please just leave me alone..... and my concerns alone..and my questions alone and my worry's about a vindictive board member alone... ok? Your input is not wanted.. thank you.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

Nichole,

I realize that this advice is easier said then done, but you have to just set out to do the right thing regardless of this person or their actions. If they set out on a recall mission, simply let him go. I would further not make much effort to block his actions should he present a petition.

You have already mentioned that he isn't well regarded by others. And quite honestly, I believe the person he is will end up taking care of your problems anyway. Just stay the course and keep your chin up. I know it is tough.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KirkW1 on 08/04/2008 7:46 PM
Nichole,

I realize that this advice is easier said then done, but you have to just set out to do the right thing regardless of this person or their actions. If they set out on a recall mission, simply let him go. I would further not make much effort to block his actions should he present a petition.

You have already mentioned that he isn't well regarded by others. And quite honestly, I believe the person he is will end up taking care of your problems anyway. Just stay the course and keep your chin up. I know it is tough.

The board as a whole have decided to let him do his thing.... and let it ride as it will. i am ok with that. I was just asking if there is anything we can do.... and the one'e with the best advice gave me the same feedback.

In the end he will present himself for what he is...

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Nicole this is the letter we send to H/O's who harass the BOD members just substitute email for letters. If he continues to send the email after he has been notified to stop then contact his email provider. Buried somewhere deep in his Terms of Service that he agreed to this is probably a violation and they will terminate his email account.

Dear ________________:

I am aware of your concerns and have received your telephone calls and/or letters. Individual board members, like me, do not make board decisions. Board decisions are made by a majority. My opinion is simply used, as are each of our opinions, in consideration of the decision.

It is clear that you disagree with my opinion on various association issues. You and I have a right to disagree. However, you do not have the right to violate my personal rights in your expression of your differing opinions.

I do not want you to call or write to me and I will no longer accept harassing telephone calls or letters.

You may attend regular monthly board meetings to express your opinions and concerns to the board. You may also exercise your right to run for office and be elected to the board of directors at the annual meeting.

Cease and desist from calling and writing to me.

Sincerely,

(name)
Board Member of (name of association)

Cc: Secretary, Board of Directors
Dewy, Cheatem and Howe, Attorneys

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Hello Glen,
As you can see this is letter format wasn't needed. But I think it is perfect if needed! I plan on keeping this as a file just in case there is further ongoing issues with the person. ( which I can take that to the bank... he is just happy the board heard him after his emailed daily threats... )

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