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NicoleO4

Posts:0

08/04/2008 4:22 AM
I was asked when do homeowners have access to excecutive minutes? ( No this not regarding an pending legal issue, but rather it was a neighbors inquiry.) It is only under legal request is it not?

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

08/04/2008 5:16 AM
You have used the term "Executive Session." This means that the Board went into private session, where each Board member is bound to secrecy about the on-goings of that meeting. Minutes are kept, but not for disclosure (relases). Subject matters for Executive Session include legal problems, contract with personnel, disciplinary issues and other issues of board problems. If you are talking about minutes of the regular Board meetings, members can request them and the secretary can provide them to a member OR if your state has statutes, they are supposed to be readily available to all members at request. Some groups even post the minutes of the meetings or provide a summary after each meeting and post that on their web sites.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/04/2008 8:51 AM
I would only release minutes of executive session upon the advise of the association lawyer.

VinceL
(California)

Posts:26

08/04/2008 10:08 AM
How do we know that executive sessions deal only with legal and diciplinary matters if they conceal the minutes? How do we know that they are not secretly plotting vindictive retaliation against one or more homeowners? Who watches the watchman? Since the directors allegedly represent homeowners, why do they have rights to conceal the homeowners' business from those on whose behalf they act. VinceL

MikeS1

Posts:0

08/04/2008 10:24 AM
Vince - you need to run for a position on the Board. Go for it.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

08/04/2008 11:20 AM
I have to agree with Vince, who knows what goes on in Ex Session. The board here discusses many things that should be discussed in open meeting, they even vote. Another interesting fact is the law states: “The board of directors of the association shall meet in executive session, if requested by a member who may be subject to a fine, penalty, or other form of discipline, and the member shall be entitled to attend the executive session.” Does “…if requested by a member…” mean that if the member does not specifically request the matter be held in Ex Session that it is to be held in open meeting? Most of these matters are held in Ex Session whether the member requests it or not. Is this OK? 1363.05. (a) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Common Interest Development Open Meeting Act. (b) Any member of the association may attend meetings of the board of directors of the association, except when the board adjourns to executive session to consider litigation, matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties, member discipline, personnel matters, or to meet with a member, upon the member’s request, regarding the member’s payment of assessments, as specified in Section 1367 or 1367.1. The board of directors of the association shall meet in executive session, if requested by a member who may be subject to a fine, penalty, or other form of discipline, and the member shall be entitled to attend the executive session. Jane

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

08/04/2008 11:28 AM
As far as i know members don't have access to Ex Session minutes. They are supposed to "...generally noted in the minutes..." I want to know how general, the law is pretty vague. Personally, I would like to see the number of letters sent for violations and the nature of the violation, how many and how much members are behind in dues. Also if there is any legal issues pending. There are some legal problems here and I would like to know the status of the matters since it will affect my property value and quality of life. But, then again, I get a lot of information just talking to the neighbors. Jane.

MikeS1

Posts:0

08/04/2008 12:57 PM
I don't know how you interpret this to read that you all have access everythin in the executive sessions. They are private for a reason. If someone is delinquent on their assessments or the board is handling confidential issues like lawsuits, it's just not someone that they want to disclose to all the neighbors. I'd be very surprised if they gave you any of the information that you're requesting. If the board has outstanding violations or complaints against a particular resident, and some of these matters are between the board and the resident. Giving any resident a list of all the late pays, delinquencies, liens, and violations is just not a good idea. Good luck.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/04/2008 12:57 PM
P...How do we know that they are not secretly plotting vindictive retaliation against one or more homeowners? ... Wow, do you have a high level of distrust or what? And what have you done to replace your Board?? What makes you think they have to meet in executive session to plot this out? Do you not realize they have each other's phone numbers and probably email addresses? Sorry, but I see no reason to believe that anyone really does this. It would be far to easy to do it outside of any official meeting to waste the effort of executive session and call attention to it.

MikeS1

Posts:0

08/04/2008 1:02 PM
SPOT ON! - You said it well. I have to agree with you on this one and when I see postings like these, I often wonder which position on the Board or Committees are being held by the person(s) that ask these kind of questions.

GeraldT4

Posts:932

08/04/2008 1:04 PM
KirkW1 - Aren't some of the greatest crimes committed in broad daylight? I understand what you are saying, and agree, but many executive sessions are really just dress rehearsals for the real dog and pony show, the OS.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

08/04/2008 1:12 PM
I only quoted what CA law reads. Jane

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/04/2008 4:36 PM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/04/2008 4:22 AM I was asked when do homeowners have access to excecutive minutes? ( No this not regarding an pending legal issue, but rather it was a neighbors inquiry.) It is only under legal request is it not? Nicole, Even a "neighbor's inquiry" can be considered confidential information. It's not only legal matters, but also confidential matters that are discussed in a closed session. What does the Davis Stirling Act say about clossed (executive) sessions. I would say, "NO" those minutes cannot be given to any homeowner who asks for them.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/04/2008 4:40 PM
I don't think these minutes are available to the membership...this is a question for your attorney to interpret.

NicoleO4

Posts:0

08/04/2008 4:45 PM
It is by legal summons or court order that executive minutes be available. It was brought to our attn that even though EM are "private" they can be requested per court order.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

08/04/2008 4:58 PM
Then I would wait for the court order and let the lawyers sift through it

VinceL
(California)

Posts:26

08/04/2008 6:05 PM
Some assert that privacy rights are paramout and drive this discussion. Whose privacy? Delinquent Homeowner? If so, why do HOAs file liens against the property, thereby informing the whole world? Others assert a need to privately discuss possible or pending litigation. But litigation is also a matter of public record. Still others believe that the process of letting out contracts to third parties justifies secrecy. Why? Unless the third parties are relatives or cronies who might be selected for some reason other than lowest bid? Like kick-backs. It seems that the only parties whose privacy rights are protected by these laws belong exclusively to the directors. From whom do they want to conceal this information? Obviously from the people whose business it really is, and on whose behalf these agents (directors)are acting. Under what other circumstances do agents dictate to their principals rather than the other way around?

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/04/2008 7:36 PM
Vince, I started to respond to your post, but in trying to form the right words it became clear that you are not really interested in knowing the whys of executive session. You have already decided that the Board is out for their own self enrichment. And while that certainly happens, the vast majority of Board members are decent folks trying to do the right thing for their neighbors. Even if I don't agree with their choices, I recognize that they do want what is best for the group as a whole. Very few of them are making any money or even steering the money to someone they know.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/04/2008 7:42 PM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/04/2008 4:45 PM It is by legal summons or court order that executive minutes be available. It was brought to our attn that even though EM are "private" they can be requested per court order. Nicole, Are you saying an h/o has a legal action against the assn and is asking for copies of minutes to an executive session meeting? If that is the case, then you will have to oblige but only when you get the request from the h/o's attorney. Why isn't the assn's attorney handling this?

NicoleO4

Posts:0

08/04/2008 7:52 PM
It was a question asked in one of our meetings. There was a homeowner who wanted to know how they can get the EM minutes. There is NO legal action or anything being asked of. It was just a question.

VinceL
(California)

Posts:26

08/04/2008 8:19 PM
Kirk, I agree that not everybody is dishonest. But why can we not see what is being done in our name? If there is nothing to hide, then stop hiding. Failure to disclose suggests they do not want us to see. And the "honest" directors who resist exposure are providing safe haven for the "dishonest" ones.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/04/2008 9:22 PM
Posted By NicoleO4 on 08/04/2008 7:52 PM It was a question asked in one of our meetings. There was a homeowner who wanted to know how they can get the EM minutes. There is NO legal action or anything being asked of. It was just a question. Nicole, Sorry, I misunderstood your remark! Well, my answer would have been, "You can't. Legal and confidential matters are discussed in executive session and we cannot divulge that information to members."

EdieL
(Virginia)

Posts:71

08/05/2008 5:44 AM
Well this is an interesting post. My 2 cents!! We have a BOD that has an ex. meeting at every month BOD meeting. They never post why they go into Ex. Meeting and never post any results coming out of the meeting. Then two months down the road they do something and I look back at meeting minutes and think "where was that voted on?" I personally think BOD's do abuse the ex. privilege. Edie

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/05/2008 5:54 AM
Posted By EdieL on 08/05/2008 5:44 AM Well this is an interesting post. My 2 cents!! We have a BOD that has an ex. meeting at every month BOD meeting. They never post why they go into Ex. Meeting and never post any results coming out of the meeting. Then two months down the road they do something and I look back at meeting minutes and think "where was that voted on?" I personally think BOD's do abuse the ex. privilege. Edie Edie, There's no question that there is abuse of this type meeting. In a perfect world (which we all know does NOT include HOAs! LOL) the board would be required to take a vote b/4 adjourning into an executive session and also announce the reason for the ES. Then, during that session, only discussion can take place, any action taken including a vote would be required to be taken in an open meeting. Minutes of the ES would be confidential. This is the procedure for public bodies, at least here in AZ. Many states have open meeting laws (sunshine laws) specific to HOAs but the actual procedure for conducting business in this type meeting is not outlined. All that is stated is what matters can be discussed in an executive session. Only legal and confidental matters should be discussed in an executive session, but I'm sure some boards discuss a lot more than that!

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

08/05/2008 6:16 AM
As Mary said, there would be a motion in the regular minutes requesting that the Board go into ES and the purpose must be stated. You should be able to find this in the minutes. Any ACTION results from the ES also need to be in the form of a motion and vote, and these would be found in the minutes of the regular meeting. Sound like you've got some reading to do! (Personally, I think that all motions should be in caps or in bold underlined type. This makes it easy to find all motions when reading the minutes. But our secretary ignores the suggestion . . . )

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

08/05/2008 4:55 PM
Vince, If you really want to know about the association business then you are just plain looking in the wrong place anyway. Proper minutes wouldn't tell you what you want to know they would include: who was present possibly a note about people outside the board who presented information (possibly) the result of a vote on action If you are trying to dig into information on your association, I will point you in a much better direction. Start with the financial records. And ask them to be specific showing line items detailing income and expenses. You should be able to see how much is owed from outstanding dues, late fees, and fines. You should be able to see how many units have outstanding balances for dues, for fines, etc. Also look at where the money is going. You should be able to see how much is spent on legal. And you should be able to find out what portion of that was billed back to unit owners. Find out how many units are in legal and how many have liens filed. (You can verify the number of liens at the courthouse. Then move on to records of violations. Request to know how many violations were noted for each month of the past three years or so. Request further information on the numbers that went to a fine. If you have done this, then you will have a very good understanding of what is being done in the name of the association. You should also look for trending in data and/or any sharp increases or decreases. One last thing, request to see the audits for the last few years. This will quickly tell you how much on the up and up things are. In my (not humble) opinion, an association should get an audit every year. This should root out any problems with the books.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2075

08/05/2008 5:52 PM
Ediel, Just from your note I find facts that support you conclusions. But, I go way overboard on this.. It is one thing to violate the ES purpose, it is another to PLAN to circumvent the requirements in order to address some personal agenda. I have no doubt this is a growing practice, not because it is so hard to fullfill as far as doing it right. It is just a way of not being clean, and probably you are lazy to boot. But we all know why this is happening, not enought people watching the store. Too many entrenched Boards that realyy have no good grasp on their documents. Maybe PM here and there looking to cut corners, certainly a manager that rules the roost. I belive I would be correct if I said, a Board meeting with an ES every time is certainly suspect. Or, as mentioned, multiple ES and no report and no vote. How can you have a ES as Planned, discuss whatever, and take no action and have no vote and keep doing that boggles the mind.

VinceL
(California)

Posts:26

08/05/2008 8:33 PM
Kirk, In an executive session, directors meet with association lawyers to discuss "issues". The lawyers' advice will primarily benefit the lawyers. Directors who reject such advice place themselves at risk of accusations of negligence. Better let the lawyers handle it. A lien filed against one's property to secure payment of the association attorneys fees, that continue to rise exponentially with each passing day, is most effective in compelling the homeowner to capitulate. Directors absolve themselves by saying "We just followed our lawyer's advice". Many of the community problems that rise to outright war could possibly be settled at open meetings, where moderate homeowners can provide a calming influence and restore reason to all parties. The only losers would be the lawyers. Outlawing executive sessions would minimize the lawyers' self-serving influence and bring harmony to the community, like it was intended.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2075

08/06/2008 4:51 AM
Vince, I would not deny Lawyers meet with directors to discuss "issues". However, To hold an Executive Session you must have it Opened from a Board Meeting. The Board has to vote to go into ES, but I believe I read somewhere the President could "call" for ES. In any event, it does not occur in a vacuum. The Open meeting is adjourned, and the Board goes into ES. I belive there are strict laws about who attends and I am pretty sure only th Board has standing invitation unless there is a Board member to be discussed, then he can not attend. After business, if a decision is made, the Board meeting is re=convened and a vote on the subject taken in open forum. I am sure there are other little crazies about it. The vote is made public and if voted minutes of ES have to be taken, but not published. Very seldom would a Lawyer go into ES. Why should they, As a Board they have the right to go sit in the lawyers office, but, usually the President meets with lawyer. A practice I don't like and shouldn't happen. ANY talk with a Lawyer should be able to be done at an open Board Meeting, execpt court cases. But in the end Vince, you come to a straight conclusion. ES will not get outlawed or taken from the books, but the membership should demand from the Board, the specific reason for a ES and they can expect action and a vote be taken. Now there is a problem with ES. The boards, in there rush to get things done with the ssmallest amount of trouble us the ES to arbitrate and compromise all kinds of stuff. As long as they announce no decision was made, no vote is taken, no record is made, and no explanatiopn of what was discussed.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/06/2008 8:26 AM
Posted By VinceL on 08/05/2008 8:33 PM Kirk, In an executive session, directors meet with association lawyers to discuss "issues". The lawyers' advice will primarily benefit the lawyers. Directors who reject such advice place themselves at risk of accusations of negligence. Better let the lawyers handle it. A lien filed against one's property to secure payment of the association attorneys fees, that continue to rise exponentially with each passing day, is most effective in compelling the homeowner to capitulate. Directors absolve themselves by saying "We just followed our lawyer's advice". Many of the community problems that rise to outright war could possibly be settled at open meetings, where moderate homeowners can provide a calming influence and restore reason to all parties. The only losers would be the lawyers. Outlawing executive sessions would minimize the lawyers' self-serving influence and bring harmony to the community, like it was intended. Vince, In a nutshell, although it sounds nice, you cannot just outlaw closed sessions. There is such a thing as "client/attorney privilege" and it must be adhered to. If there is pending litigation, caution not to divulge certain information is critical. If you think there are members on your board who cannot, or do not, exercise "reason" in their decisions and need the presence of "moderate" homeowners to instill a bit of "calming influence", then I believe you need to concentrate your efforts on having those board members removed or see to it they do not get re-elected. But to make the broad assumption that ALL board members need this "calming influence" is, IMO, a gross injustice to all the very good board members serving HOA communities.

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