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MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
I live in a 55-and older, paired patio home community in Indianapolis. The covenant is very clear that no one under the age of 55 "shall be a resident of a dwelling" except in the following 3 circumstances: 1) a live-in caretaker who does not meet the age requirement may dwell in the residence until the owner has regained health or has died. 2) A disabled dependent child, under the age of 55, may live with a homeowner. 3) An underage spouse of a 55-year old homeowner may dwell in the home, but the title must be in the name of the 55 year old.

One of our neighbors has been gone on vacation for 10 to 12 days. She has had two young women living in her home, I assume to house-sit and pet-sit, during her absence. The young women are at best in their early 20's or late teens. During their stay in the home, other teens/20-year olds have visited the home. The homeowner is a frequent traveler and although this is the first time she has had someone staying in her home, it is very likely she will travel for extended periods in the future. I (and some other neighbors) believe the homeowner is the type of person who will "push the envelope" as far as possible. Keep in mind that this is a paired home (duplex type) with a common wall and roof of two homeowners, and other homeowners in the area are aware of this situation.

I'd appreciate any feedback anyone has to offer. Do you think this is a violation of the Covenant? What is your advice for the BOD? How do think this situation is best handled? Thanks for your input.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
in general, i would say that the vacationing owner has found a loophole.

unless your rules define a resident, I for one would think that a person "resides" at a location when their address is changed to reflect it. Does this person receive mail at the home? then they reside there. If they don't, then the argument for residence is weaker. Is it the address on file with the DMV, IRS, State? If not, that weakens the resident argument.

In fact, without any other definition of "resident", the HOA should hope that no one uses the standard State definitions for "resident" that are in use for college tuitions, etc... that typically requires years of ownership/living in the same place before one can be considered a resident.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Marianne,

As a Hoosier, I have intimate knowledge of such a situation--more than I can say here.

Is the situation you describe a violation of the covenants? From a technical point of view, it appears to be.

Yet, a temporary house-sitter or guest does not meet the definition of a resident. I would doubt that courts in Indiana would support a finding that the covenants have been violated. And fines are not permitted.

The question you must ask is, "What damage is being done? What is the harm?" If there is no manifest harm to property values or to the free enjoyment of other owner's property there may be little you can do from a legal, ethical or moral point of view.

Sadly, in Indiana there is a lot of language in covenants that simply is not enforceable unless there is tangible evidence of damage. No harm, no foul. The language is more of a guide to proper behavior.

Now, if it is an issue of noise, behavior, parking, or some other behavior that carries beyond the walls of the unit you may have a cause of action.

I believe this is a case in which moral suasion and neighborliness is going to work far better than legalistic letters from the board or attorneys.

Could you offer to look after your neighbor's unit while she is away? I would.

If not, is there some other neighbor that would be in a position to do so?

Could the board send a kind, considerate and understanding letter explaining the desire to maintain the character of the the community? That would be on the top of my list.

With all that said, your concern is legitimate and valid. I sympathize with your plight.

I believe most sincerely that you will be more successful in addressing your concern if you approach this issue compassionately and with neighborliness.

That approach may not work, but then again it just might.

I would like to read what others advise you to consider as well. Thanks for asking a great question.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
What if the housesitters WERE over 55?

The issue is that "owner" and "resident" have not been defined, for anything to be discussed.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 07/29/2008 5:01 AM
What if the housesitters WERE over 55?

The issue is that "owner" and "resident" have not been defined, for anything to be discussed.

I must thoughtfully and with consideration to your point of view disagree (without being a disagreeable person).

There is much to be discussed here without even getting into the legalistic or technical issue of what is a resident or owner. There are ways to consider the issues presented in this thread other than simply legalisms.

Certainly, a lengthy house-sitting stay by twenty-somethings is inappropriate in a community for those 55 and older. How should this issue be addressed, if at all, by the board?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Okay, I have to jump into the mix here,

I have 2 rental properties in Florida, both of which are 55+ communities. Both sets of docs read that ANY visitor may not stay beyond 30 days. "Visitor" is the key word here. Unless your documents state that visitors must be at least 55 years old, I would use my best judgement and not make this an issue.

Now, the behavior and issues of breaking any Rules and Regs of the community is another thing. Remember, the owner is responsible for any activity on their property. WHAT GOES ON INSIDE THE HOUSE IS NO ONE ELSES BUSINESS UNLESS IT IS AGAINST THE LAW.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Thank you George for your very considered and sensitive response. (Thanks to all others, too.)

I think your suggestion that the board send an understanding letter, which explains "the desire to maintain the character of the community" is probably the best solution to this problem.

As a matter of fact, for the past 5 years, I have cared for the vacationing resident's property, tended her pet, picked up her garbage can (sometimes chasing the lid down the street), at her request have met workmen at her home during her absence, and have done everything I can to be neighborly. However, when I requested that she not limit access to my driveway with her RV, she became angry at me and has not spoken since. She's also angry at the neighbor on the other side of her because that neighbor declined to allow her to install her fence on the neighbor's property. The subject resident has stated in the past that she doesn't think the BOD can do anything when a resident violates the Covenants.

At this point, the vacationer is back home, and the young women occupying her home in her absence truly did not cause any serious problems. My fear, however, is that a precedent is being set -- not only for the resident in question, but for others who may see this behavior. I think if the BOD does not act, their inaction becomes tantamount to condoning underage persons to reside in a home for an unlimited amount of time.

Thanks, Marianne
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarianneG on 07/29/2008 11:17 AM
Thank you George for your very considered and sensitive response. (Thanks to all others, too.)

I think your suggestion that the board send an understanding letter, which explains "the desire to maintain the character of the community" is probably the best solution to this problem.

As a matter of fact, for the past 5 years, I have cared for the vacationing resident's property, tended her pet, picked up her garbage can (sometimes chasing the lid down the street), at her request have met workmen at her home during her absence, and have done everything I can to be neighborly. However, when I requested that she not limit access to my driveway with her RV, she became angry at me and has not spoken since. She's also angry at the neighbor on the other side of her because that neighbor declined to allow her to install her fence on the neighbor's property. The subject resident has stated in the past that she doesn't think the BOD can do anything when a resident violates the Covenants.

At this point, the vacationer is back home, and the young women occupying her home in her absence truly did not cause any serious problems. My fear, however, is that a precedent is being set -- not only for the resident in question, but for others who may see this behavior. I think if the BOD does not act, their inaction becomes tantamount to condoning underage persons to reside in a home for an unlimited amount of time.

Thanks, Marianne

Marianne,

What do your docs say about guests? Is there a time limit on how long they can stay? These "housesitters" should not be confused with being "residents", but they could be considered to be "guests".
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
One more thought: you may not have to worry too much about the precedent setting inaction.

In Hoosierland the Court of Appeals has held that even if the board has failed to act in the past, it is not prevented from acting in the future.

"The non-waiver provision, by its plain language, is intended to prevent a waiver based on prior inaction in enforcing the Restrictions. To hold otherwise would render the non-waiver provision meaningless and violate the expressed intention of the contract among the property owners."

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/11170605ewn.pdf

Sometimes neighbors are the most un-neighborly people in the world. Sadly, there is nothing we can do except continue to "be nice" and to do the right thing, knowing that doing right is its own reward.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Mary A1

Our documents do not address "guests" or "visitors," but it has been common practice for children, grandchildren, relatives, and friends of homeowners to be in a homeowner's home for short and long periods of time when the homeowner is also there. This is the first time I'm aware of that a homeowner has had someone in her home for up to 12 days when she was not also there. It looks like the problem boils down to semantics and documents which are open to interpretation.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
George,

Thanks again. I feel relieved to know that if our board doesn't address this, it will not prevent them from addressing a similar situation in the future. Also thanks for the website you linked here. I will look at it. I'm glad to call you a fellow Hoosier. Marianne
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Marianne, are you sure that the documents don't say anything about guests and how long they can stay?

Most "restricted" places would be sure to define "resident" and "guest/visitor" and even state a length of time that "guests" could stay. Otherwise, you would have LOTS of under-55 "guests" in your complex, believe me.

Look at your bylaws and CCRs again. I've seen standard verbiage stating time frames ranging from 3 days to 2 weeks where "guests" can stay before it becomes a violation.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Short of a definition in the documents, terms carry their common meaning. The test is, "What would a reasonable person believe the meaning to be?"

Having said this, I think it to be a very uphill battle to even start to consider a house sitter of 12 days to be a resident. And as a BOD member, I would decline involvement at all in the situation unless the house sitters were there in a very regularly sitting.

Even then, it is an uphill battle at best and a losing proposition at worst. And if you ask the BOD for involvement then it will appear that you are upset at the resident and trying to get back for the RV incident. (I am not saying that is the case, but could appear that way.)

If the young women say there on a very regular business, then it might be appropriate for the BOD to involve itself. But at the end of the day, understand that it would be a tough sell to declare them residents if they leave when the owner comes home. And attempts to limit them could hamper other owners as well. (Who wants to count the days their grandchild has been there for fear that they are over the limit?)
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 07/29/2008 4:34 PM
Marianne, are you sure that the documents don't say anything about guests and how long they can stay?

Most "restricted" places would be sure to define "resident" and "guest/visitor" and even state a length of time that "guests" could stay. Otherwise, you would have LOTS of under-55 "guests" in your complex, believe me.

Look at your bylaws and CCRs again. I've seen standard verbiage stating time frames ranging from 3 days to 2 weeks where "guests" can stay before it becomes a violation.

Susan W1
I have thoroughly searched our documents, and the only mention of guest (or any similar term) is as it relates to use of the common areas. The statement is that guests must conduct themselves in accordance with any rules or regulations pertaining to use of the common areas. Marianne
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 07/29/2008 10:27 PM
Short of a definition in the documents, terms carry their common meaning. The test is, "What would a reasonable person believe the meaning to be?"

Having said this, I think it to be a very uphill battle to even start to consider a house sitter of 12 days to be a resident. And as a BOD member, I would decline involvement at all in the situation unless the house sitters were there in a very regularly sitting.

Even then, it is an uphill battle at best and a losing proposition at worst. And if you ask the BOD for involvement then it will appear that you are upset at the resident and trying to get back for the RV incident. (I am not saying that is the case, but could appear that way.)

If the young women say there on a very regular business, then it might be appropriate for the BOD to involve itself. But at the end of the day, understand that it would be a tough sell to declare them residents if they leave when the owner comes home. And attempts to limit them could hamper other owners as well. (Who wants to count the days their grandchild has been there for fear that they are over the limit?)

KirkW1
Oh, you are so right!! This situation is a real sticky wicket. What I have not said in previous postings is that I am a member of the 5-person board. As a member of the board, I signed a Statement of Conduct, which has as one of its provisions that board members act in the best interests of the community. It is important to remember that this IS a restricted community.

When I became aware of the situation described earlier, I found myself in a dilemma. Given my history with the neighbor, certainly my objectivity has to be questioned. If I overlook the potentially harmful situation, then I have not fulfilled my board obligations. If I bring the question to the rest of the board, it could appear that I'm engaging in "payback." I labored over this long and hard. I finally decided that I need to hand it over to the other four board members and recuse myself from any board decisions abut the matter.

As a matter of information, I e-mailed the other board members about the situation. I did not use the name of the individual and gave no indication of where the homeowner lives. I simply said that the homeowner has been gone for 10 to 12 days and two young women have been occupying the house in the homeowner's absence. Then, I started this thread in order to get some feedback from others.
These comments from you and others have really helped me to deal with this precarious situation I find myself in. I really appreciate all the help provided here.
Marianne

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Marianne - if your are legally designated as a 55 and over community, you MUST have definition of that. Are you a HUD community? Look in your deed.

Ask the Board to define "guest" and "resident/owner".

This is going to be an even BIGGER issue with the economy AND some of the adult kids that come back to live with elderly parents. Better brace yourselves, now.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
I see no covenant violation here...the definition of a resident is "A person coming into a place with intention to establish his domicil or permanent residence, and who in consequence actually remains there. Time is not so essential as the intent, executed by making or beginning an actual establishment, though it be abandoned in a longer, or shorter period."

There is nothing in what you said that these girls give the intention of living there. As many others have said the answer is in your guest definition, if your HOA does not have one I would suggest adopting one. Otherwise what this person did is well within your rules and regulations.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 07/30/2008 5:49 AM
Marianne - if your are legally designated as a 55 and over community, you MUST have definition of that. Are you a HUD community? Look in your deed.

Ask the Board to define "guest" and "resident/owner".

This is going to be an even BIGGER issue with the economy AND some of the adult kids that come back to live with elderly parents. Better brace yourselves, now.

You sure raise a good point, Susan. It is true that we have seen adult children moving back with Mom and Dad in this current economy. A couple of years ago, that very thing happened here in our community. Several of the homeowners were unhappy about it, and the Board President spoke with the homeowner. The result was that the young man moved out of his parents' home.

To my knowledge, we are not a HUD community, although I'm not sure what a HUD community is. Our community is one of many similar 55+ communities developed by an independent developer. I have never seen nor am I aware of a deed. So I must confess my ignorance here. Perhaps there is a paper trail in the hands of either the board president or treasurer. Marianne
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarianneG on 07/30/2008 7:03 AM



You sure raise a good point, Susan. It is true that we have seen adult children moving back with Mom and Dad in this current economy. A couple of years ago, that very thing happened here in our community. Several of the homeowners were unhappy about it, and the Board President spoke with the homeowner. The result was that the young man moved out of his parents' home.

To my knowledge, we are not a HUD community, although I'm not sure what a HUD community is. Our community is one of many similar 55+ communities developed by an independent developer. I have never seen nor am I aware of a deed. So I must confess my ignorance here. Perhaps there is a paper trail in the hands of either the board president or treasurer. Marianne

Marianne,

If your whole s/d was a "HUD commuity", I'm sure you would know because you would have had to qualify as a low-income individual in order to purchase your home. In some cases a developer will agree to including low income housing in their s/d plan. This usually requires that a certain % of the homes being built be set aside for HUD housing. These homes would be lower priced -- within the range of what a person qualifying for HUD benefits could afford.

You say you have never seen a deed. Do you mean you don't have a deed to your property? At any rate, the answer to your question wouldn't be found in the deed anyway. As another individual stated, if your documents do not have a definition of a guest, the board should get busy to adopt one. BTW, have you looked in the definitions section of your CCRs for "guest"?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Marianne and Mary,
If this community is a designated 55+ community, it does fall under HUD and to be exact, it is a HOPA community under HUD

The Housing for Older Persons Act of 1995 (HOPA) makes several changes to the 55 and older exemption. Since the 1988 Amendments, the Fair Housing Act has exempted from its familial status provisions properties that satisfy the Act's 55 and older housing condition.

First, it eliminates the requirement that 55 and older housing have "significant facilities and services" designed for the elderly. Second, HOPA establishes a "good faith reliance" immunity from damages for persons who in good faith believe that the 55 and older exemption applies to a particular property, if they do not actually know that the property is not eligible for the exemption and if the property has formally stated in writing that it qualifies for the exemption.
HOPA retains the requirement that senior housing must have one person who is 55 years of age or older living in at least 80 percent of its occupied units. It also still requires that senior housing publish and follow policies and procedures that demonstrate an intent to be housing for persons 55 and older.

An exempt property will not violate the Fair Housing Act if it includes families with children, but it does not have to do so. Of course, the property must meet the Act's requirements that at least 80 percent of its occupied units have at least one occupant who is 55 or older, and that it publish and follow policies and procedures that demonstrate an intent to be 55 and older housing.

A Department of Housing and Urban Development rule published in the April 2, 1999, Federal Register implements the Housing for Older Persons Act of 1995, and explains in detail those provisions of the Fair Housing Act that pertain to senior housing.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Susan, Mary, and Donna,

I have just gone through a stack of long-forgotten closing papers. Yes, there is a deed, but it is very short and gives only the address, conveyance to me, and the signature of the developer's representative. Interestingly, I also found a document which was required to prove that I was over 55 at the time of purchase.

I saw no indication of HUD or HOPA involvement in any of the documents. I don't doubt, however, that all communities (for older people or not) fall under some federal and state statutes. For example, some of the documents cite Indiana Code that the development is not built over a landfill. That was the only specific citation of Indiana Code.

Back to my original question, though, and the many fine responses in this thread, our board will meet next Thursday and one of the agenda items will be a discussion of the situation I described. All 5 of our directors are intelligent, reasonable people, who seem to have the best interests of the community in mind, so I feel certain an agreeable solution will be reached.

Last October there was a complete turnover of board members so all 5 of us were new to the board. The complete turnover came about because homeowners thought the old board was secretive and there was suspicion surrounding them. Our new board wanted to avoid that so we arranged to have monthly meetings in a free room at the local library. The first hour is for board members only and the second hour is open to homeowners, but we ask that they advise us ahead of time as to the issue they want to address. So far, we've only had one couple who came with a suggestion - not a complaint.

Every month, we publish a newsletter and in it we include a brief Treasurer's Report and state that the full report is avilable upon request. We include news, information about the community and board actions. One of our members writes a biography of a homeowner each month or there is an article about a club that meets or a Bible study group. The response has been tremendous. People in the community are speaking again, they volunteer to pull weeds and help decorate our Gazebo. They volunteer to work on committees. We have made such great strides that I hope we can solve this problem in such a way that people continue to feel good about where they live.

Thanks to all for your valuable input. Marianne
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonnaS on 07/31/2008 4:23 PM

Marianne and Mary,
If this community is a designated 55+ community, it does fall under HUD and to be exact, it is a HOPA community under HUD


Donna & Marianne,

I am aware that a 55+ community does fall under the HUD Fair Housing Act. However, my comment was in response to Susan's stating say if this is a 55+ community there should be documentation then followd by asking if it were a HUD community. For some reason I was thinking she was asking if it was a low income community or had some low income housing.

However, none of this applies to the problem at hand. No where in the HOPA regs is there a mention of guests and that is the problem at hand here.

As stated earlier, the board needs to adopt a resolution defining the term "guest". Since Marianne has stated that the current board is very careful to be open with the members, perhaps they could ask the members' opinions regarding the definition of guest, i.e., how long can a guest "live" in a home in the community b/4 they are considered a "resident". But, I certainly hope they will be very careful with this definition. Since this is a senior community everyone should be aware that at any point in their lives they may need assistance that might warrant an individual moving in for a period of time. The board and the members alike should also be aware that having an individual residing in their 55+ community for a short period of time will in no way compromise their exemption as a 55 or older housing for older persons.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Marianne,

Let me just say that this is a great deal of bogus information and opinion being posted on this topic. I am staying out of it because I am not fully up to speed, and I have to allocate my time to other issues and projects.

You would be well served to exercise caution in consideration of what is being written here. It is not always factual. Indiana laws are quite different (some would accurately say, behind the times). What applies in other states does not apply in Hoosierland.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 08/01/2008 2:44 AM
Marianne,

Let me just say that this is a great deal of bogus information and opinion being posted on this topic. I am staying out of it because I am not fully up to speed, and I have to allocate my time to other issues and projects.

You would be well served to exercise caution in consideration of what is being written here. It is not always factual. Indiana laws are quite different (some would accurately say, behind the times). What applies in other states does not apply in Hoosierland.


George with all due respect that is one of the most arrogant postings I've seen here. That what others have posted is bogus even though you freely admit you're not up to speed on the matter. No one is giving legal advice here (even the people who are actually lawyers) it's all someone's opinion, read the disclaimer at the bottom.

If someone is wrong by all means call them on it. But this type of statement is IMO Bravo Sierra and not helpful to the discussion at hand. And while Indiana law will certainly come in to play 55 and older communities come under Federal Guidelines. I suspect that the OP is not so much upset that this woman had the young girls watch her home for 12 days as she is upset about the other stuff she posted and is using this as an excuse to "get back" at her. But that’s only my opinion bogus or not.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:

George with all due respect that is one of the most arrogant postings I've seen here. That what others have posted is bogus even though you freely admit you're not up to speed on the matter. No one is giving legal advice here (even the people who are actually lawyers) it's all someone's opinion, read the disclaimer at the bottom.

If someone is wrong by all means call them on it. But this type of statement is IMO Bravo Sierra and not helpful to the discussion at hand. And while Indiana law will certainly come in to play 55 and older communities come under Federal Guidelines. I suspect that the OP is not so much upset that this woman had the young girls watch her home for 12 days as she is upset about the other stuff she posted and is using this as an excuse to "get back" at her. But that’s only my opinion bogus or not.

Glen

It has been helpful to me to receive all the responses given here because I've been able to broaden my understanding or at least see other areas to investigate. I have especially appreciated George's responses because from his postings, I believe he lives in the same kind of community I do and in the same state. I think he has a real clear picture of my concerns.

I have no doubt that it appears to you (and probably many others) that I'm trying to "get back" at the vacationing resident. I knew going into this discussion that some people would see it that way.

Marianne

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mr George,

Okay, it was nice of you to state that you are not up to full speed on this subject. But you better understand that if Indiana has laws that contridict or are "quite different" from Federal Laws, Indiana 's laws become mute. There is a heirarchy of laws that all HOAs must follow and the Federal Law trumps all States. Below is how it goes.

1) All Federal Laws
2) State Laws and Statutes
3) County, City and Local laws and ordinances
4) The HOA CC&Rs
5) Articles of Inc, (which are State registered)
6) ByLaws of the Assoc.
7)Rules and Regs of the assoc.

Some have added Roberts Rules of Order but not all assocs have it stated in their docs.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Marianne et al.,

Thank you. I have come to value and appreciate all points of view throughout my career in public policy formation. There is always something valuable to be learned. And I have learned not to take things personally. Indeed, I appreciate the focus on words rather than personalities. No arrogance was intended. Thank you for the courage to express your reaction. I do not take any of this personally but as a positive contribution to an ongoing discussion.

Nevertheless, I stand firmly behind the accuracy of the posting and the guidance offered.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Marianne,

The 55+ communities under HUD and HOPA are very complicated but yet it is so simply written.

On your post, you said of a young man had to leave his parents home because of his age. "(You sure raise a good point, Susan. It is true that we have seen adult children moving back with Mom and Dad in this current economy. A couple of years ago, that very thing happened here in our community. Several of the homeowners were unhappy about it, and the Board President spoke with the homeowner. The result was that the young man moved out of his parents' home.")

That is and should be noted as against any HUD regulations. As long as 1 of the residents is 55 or older, and the son was not under 18 years old, he would be allowed to live with is parents.

UNLESS your documents specifically state that NO ONE under the age of 55 is allowed to live there, it would have an illegal move by the Board to force him to leave. All Boards have to do is either read these regulations or call an attorney to find out what is really the law
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
What would you say if her place burned down and took out a few of the attached units. Insurance policies require homes to be checked if you are going to be away for more than a few days so the visitors help to keep the policy valid thus ensuring coverage if something did happen. I know it's a stretch but...
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

DJ1,

Yup, that is a "stretch". I have 2 policies in Florida and they cover the unit and contents and neighboring units, NOT who is inside of them. Yes they cover occupants but they don't care who that person is as long as they are permitted within by the owner or policy holder.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Donna,

I don't want to get into the business of defending what a previous board did, but my understanding is that the board did not force the individual to leave. The president spoke with and worked with the resident in order to resolve the situation. I don't know how old the young man was.

From our Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions, "No one under the age of Fifty Five (55) years of age shall be a resident of a dwelling on a Lot other than the following exceptions:" (The 3 exceptions are a live-in caretaker, a disabled dependent child, and a spouse who has not yet reached 55 years of age.) This document is filed with the Township Assessor and the Secretary of State. They were written by an attorney, signed by the developer, and are properly filed in our state so I have to believe they are in accordance with pertinent laws.
Marianne
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Marianne,
That is correct. If the governing Documents specifically state age restrictions, then they are valid. Many designated 55+ communities documents do not state limitations and therefore the HOPA/Hud laws allow for family members under the age of 55, be allowed to reside within the community as long as 1 of the owners meets the 55 year requirement.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarianneG on 08/01/2008 10:55 AM
Donna,

I don't want to get into the business of defending what a previous board did, but my understanding is that the board did not force the individual to leave. The president spoke with and worked with the resident in order to resolve the situation. I don't know how old the young man was.

From our Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions, "No one under the age of Fifty Five (55) years of age shall be a resident of a dwelling on a Lot other than the following exceptions:" (The 3 exceptions are a live-in caretaker, a disabled dependent child, and a spouse who has not yet reached 55 years of age.) This document is filed with the Township Assessor and the Secretary of State. They were written by an attorney, signed by the developer, and are properly filed in our state so I have to believe they are in accordance with pertinent laws.
Marianne

Okay, in the case of the adult child coming home to roost, I'll give you that per the above language.

But in that a housesitter is not a "resident," I would have to weigh in on the side that there was no violation, therefore, nothing to address with that resident.

In my opinion, this should not have risen to the level of even having the board address it.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Michelle,

I totally agree with you. Having 2 properties in 55+ communities, I find that many of the owners become entrenched and do not want any outsiders to crack the code and violate their space, being that the outsiders belong there or not. Now I know that many of our fellow posters who are in these communities will get their hair in a bunch but I honestly feel that I have got this reasonably right. I have seen and heard this many times at Board meetings. Being the Docs chairman at one, many times the Board has gotten letters complaining that "there has been a car parked often at a unit and we want to know why and who are they" Or how come so and so has a Son who is living there and etc.

Many of these folks are in their 80s and have kids who come to care for them. I think that basically, these HOAs have to loosen the grip that they think they are entitled to it comes to who comes and goes out of the units. These are senior aged folks, probably not running crack houses or running bookie joints so to live under such scrutiny from neighbors and Boards, I find rather sad and unmerican that some HOAs feel that they can control every aspect of our living. HAving a reasonable time frame for guests to live in the community is acceptable but controling the ages of guests--well that's just plain rediculous. Read the definition of a guest before these Boards enact stupid and unenforceable rules.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Michelle and Donna,

Well, I guess the stereotypes of those cranky, nasty older people are about as valid as stereotypes of those fire-eatin', dope-smokin', car-racin' young people. (I'm chiding myself as well as you.)

The point is that these folks in the 55+ community made a rather large investment to live in a community designed for them and for them alone. They are in their late 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s (we even have one 91 year old), and this is their last home-hurrah. Their next homes are likely to be in the nursing home or the funeral home. They chose this community because of its amenities for them and for the opportunity to live out their lives here under rules made for them. I think they deserve this opportunity at the end of their lives.

As a responsible board member, I felt it my duty to bring this situation to the rest of the board. The board is responsible for interpreting the Covenants and weighing the freedoms afforded to one person in concert with the wishes of 297 other residents. It was not my decision, and I could not have lived with myself if I had overlooked a situation which I believe is potentially harmful to the community -- Not only the 12-day stay, but the precedent it sets. Further,(and many of you have said this) if there is a need to clarify the provisions of the Covenants, why not now? Let's get at the business of clarifying the terms, and put it to the community for an amendment to the Covenants. The community will ultimately decide.

Our social event (an ice cream social with music provided by a local group) is this afternoon, so I must be about getting ready for that. It's hot as the dickens here today so think cool thoughts for us. I wish you a cool day also!

Marianne
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarianneG on 08/02/2008 7:04 AM
Michelle and Donna,

Well, I guess the stereotypes of those cranky, nasty older people are about as valid as stereotypes of those fire-eatin', dope-smokin', car-racin' young people. (I'm chiding myself as well as you.)

The point is that these folks in the 55+ community made a rather large investment to live in a community designed for them and for them alone. They are in their late 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s (we even have one 91 year old), and this is their last home-hurrah. Their next homes are likely to be in the nursing home or the funeral home. They chose this community because of its amenities for them and for the opportunity to live out their lives here under rules made for them. I think they deserve this opportunity at the end of their lives.

As a responsible board member, I felt it my duty to bring this situation to the rest of the board. The board is responsible for interpreting the Covenants and weighing the freedoms afforded to one person in concert with the wishes of 297 other residents. It was not my decision, and I could not have lived with myself if I had overlooked a situation which I believe is potentially harmful to the community -- Not only the 12-day stay, but the precedent it sets. Further,(and many of you have said this) if there is a need to clarify the provisions of the Covenants, why not now? Let's get at the business of clarifying the terms, and put it to the community for an amendment to the Covenants. The community will ultimately decide.

Our social event (an ice cream social with music provided by a local group) is this afternoon, so I must be about getting ready for that. It's hot as the dickens here today so think cool thoughts for us. I wish you a cool day also!

Marianne

Marianne, I must still respectfully disagree with you on this particular instance. Please keep in mind, I'm not criticizing you as a person.

I'm just saying that as a board member, you had nothing to "report."

I can't think of a single place where a 12-day, or even a 14-day, stay constitutes "residency," and your documents clearly state "residency" is the restriction for under 55.

I also think that implying that 2-week visits constitute "harm" to a community, in and of themselves, is disingenuous.

If the housesitter had been engaging in some nuisance behavior, you might have an argument.

There is no "precedent" to be set by "allowing" such a thing, mainly because there's no infraction that occurred!

I think, regardless of your attempt to convince yourself otherwise, you do still harbor some personal issues with the resident in question.

She did nothing wrong. There is no gray area here. There is nothing for the "community" to decide. Your documents don't restrict housesitting. They don't dictate what minimum or maximum age guests and visitors of residents must be. They only restrict "residents." Again, at the risk of being redundant, housesitting for 2 or 3 weeks would never, ever be construed as residency. Trying to imply that it is or does and that it somehow "harms" the community is fallacious.

Of course you would be able to live with yourself, if you were being fair, by looking at this situation with an unbiased eye.

I sincerely hope your board has not already sent the "sincere" letter to the resident.

I think that would be inappropriate, ill-advised, and an extreme over-reaching by the board. They have no standing and no authority to even make the request and were I the one to receive the letter I would feel that I were being either harassed or that there was an attempt to intimidate me.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
As I Stated before and I will state again, it is my OPINION that no violation has occured. I see no problem with it being reported to the board but in this case in my opinion the board should have realized that there was no violation and let it rest.

I have seen no evidence that the house sitters were anything other than housesitters. They made no attempt to establish a permanent residence in the community, they were in fact visitors.

Since the documents in question state nothing about visitors or guests then the BOD has work to do to refine that portion and address this situation. I have gathered that it is a huge deal to some in the community, if that is the case then residents and board members need to work together to draft guest documents to control this. But until that happens I would advise to leave this lady alone as she is doing nothing wrong and is abiding by her documents.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Marianne,

This is always a subject that has two sides, usually fairly divided as to how we feel. I am 65 years old and own 2 rental properties in 2 different developements in Florida and both are 55+ communities. I am Docs chairman for 1 of them so I am going to write a short, pretend "visitors" amendment.

All visitors will be allowed to stay in a unit for a maximum of 30 consecutive days. Any time in excess of 30 days ,visitors must be blood related and have extenuating circumstances,and will need written approval from the BOD. All visitors must not be any younger that 45 years old. No vehicles other than passenger cars will be allowed. (No trucks).

Okay, now you edit this and see if you can write something that would pass the general membership. I know what you are saying about some of the residents expressing concerns about how they want the community to be populated but in this real world, discrimination does get very unfair. My Mom (85) doesn't like my neighbor to use our pool (with my permission) because "they don't belong in our yard" It's alot to do with age and possessiveness

Okay, I live in your community. I have 1 big dog that my neighbors do not want to walk 4 times a day. My Godchild (age 30)is building her house but it won't be ready for 45 days. She will house sit for us while we go to Europe for 31 days. This is a no brainer for me as for convenience. Can she stay in my house for that extra day? Don't forget, she is not blood related
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Donna and all,
Donna - When I read your last post with the draft wording of an amendment and your last paragraph with an example of a real-life situation, my spirits lifted. Thank you, and thank you for being open enough to share a little about yourself, too. We are not that far apart in age since I turned 70 last week and I remain active and involved as you seem to be.

Michelle - A letter has NOT been sent to the resident. Our board meeting will be next Thrusday, and this issue is on the agenda for discussion. I think the most likely outcome of that meeting will be that we will do nothing about the 12-day stay, but may consider clarifying terms and/or amending the Covenant. I am certain that the board will take no action against the lady or even let her know in any way that this issue came up at the board meeting. Be assured that she will not be hurt in any way!

In one of my early posts, I stated that I know I am not objective in this case. Some of you have pointed that out (some nicely, and some in a little more forthright way - LOL). That is a little tough to take sometimes, but your posts, suggestions, and reasoned arguments have helped me to arrive at a little more more objective place, I think. This backing and forthing with you has been very helpful to me. Thanks.

I'm going to leave this thread now and not continue it any further. I will read any responses you choose to send, and I will get back to you for an update if it seems appropriate.
Regards to all, Marianne

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Marianne,
I meant to add this to my previous post but with advancing age, I sometimes push "submit" faster than my thoughts can catch my fingers.

The 55+ community where I am Docs chair, has tried a few times to pass what some of us call, gestapo rules. Thank God, the majority of the 230 members have had enough sense to figure out the consequesces of some of the oddly restrictive changes. After all, everyone in the Association has a right to use their homes and the amenities without feeling a vice grip of major strict rules around their necks. Visitors restrictions is a major big deal IMHO.

They tried a "No Renters" amendment and it failed by the required 2/3rds vote. They tried to restrict "Jeeps and Jeep like vehicles. What's that all about. So, I would venture to say, unless there is some really nice perks to any visitors amendment, I highly doubt that it would pass the general membership vote. Okay, now I'm done also.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
First, under Donna's suggested amendment her 30 your old daughter can not even come to the house. All visitors must be 45 years of age.

Sorry, but if you attempt to stop a 12 day house sitting it will bite you severely in the end. You will stop a grandchild from visiting for two weeks. For all you know, this was a grandchild doing the house sitting.

Based on your posts we know the following about your visitors:
- quiet
- very young looking
- stayed for 12 days while the owner was gone

From other posts you have mentioned that grandchildren come and make extended stays without problem. Now I am going out on a limb and guessing that would mean two or more weeks. IF so, then you will not be able to stop the activity you just described. Any attempt to stop this and you have stopped grandchildren from staying the same length as these two "kids."

The more you argue, the more it would appear to me that you really do have something against this person. You have no idea who the house sitters were. And you readily state the only thing that bothered you is their presence and how young they looked.

As you go forward consider the consequences of your actions. Do you really want to specify how long a grandchild can visit? (And what if they stay less then a week next time? Will you then prohibit grandchildren from staying overnight?)

While I don't doubt your ability to whip up a frenzy of malcontent against this resident, your attempts to stop this from occurring again will also whip up bad feelings throughout your neighborhood. And don't bet that others won't take a very dim view of yourself should the resident explain that her grand-daughters came for those 12 days, and what a blessing it was.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Kirk,
Being involved with a very active, creative BOD where I am Docs chair, most times when they come up with another brainy idea on how to change the CC&Rs, Bylaws and R. & Rs., I just cringe at what will be the consequences to the community if this passes the membership vote.

The key word here is consequences--how will this adversly affect the community. They always give me a list of the good things about a proposed change but rarely do they figure out the negatives. That's what I try to do for them because this Board seems to want Utopia as they perceive it. Thank goodness, once we argue it out at workshops and Board meetings, some of the older, original members seem to understand that things are working well now so why stir up the pot. Why create a rule or amendment to address what was a once in a lifetime incident. Why take away some freedoms of the good members who might have to answer to one persons stupidity. I say, address the one stupid behavior with what we have and that's the ability to fine and forget all of the hassle of changing what already is working.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
To all who have posted on this subject previously, I think it's fair to let you know the outcome of our board meeting today. Only 4 members attended. One was ill. Two members thought (as many of you thought) that no violation occurred. I pretty much kept myself out of the discussion except to offer facts when asked. The other board member didn't say much but expressed concerns about effects on residents in the adjoining unit.

So, we left it that this time nothing will be done as no violation occurred. There was no discussion (nor any attempt on my part to bring about a discussion) about adding any clarifying language to our Covenants. So, as BradP said, we will let the matter rest. However, if in the future housesitters are at any residence (as Kirk1 offered) regularly, we will address the situation at that time.

GeorgeWilliamsW. If you happen to read this, I'd like you to know that in one of my posts of 08/01, the first part of that post was copied from a previous poster. It was not I who wrote anything derogatory about one of your posts. I just didn't do the copying right, and I fear it might have come across as if I wrote those comments.

I remain convinced that I did the right thing in bringing the matter to the board. Like any other resident, I have every right to bring a concern to our board. Members of the board know the community and the rules by which we operate.

And Kirk1, I will not go around fomenting discontent here. If you knew me, you would know that I'm well liked in every group I'm in, and have always been a good neighbor in the many multi-family communities I've lived in. In another thread the original poster commented, after several unkind things said about her, that it's really pretty unfair to characterize a person by the few words written here.

Meanwhile, a nice glass of wine helps the crow to go down.

Thanks again for your comments. Regards to all, Marianne

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Marianne, Please don't take any of this discussion and dissection as personal judgments or character assassination or narrow-minded criticism, it's definitely not.

We can only base our assessments, again, which are not personal although at times they may bring personal behaviors into the discussion, on what is told to us by admittedly one side of the story.

I think it's easy to get defensive when one thinks they are being personally attacked (as I think that's what the other poster deemed the suggestions to do some self-examination re: personal bias, etc was).

I have to say I'm glad that the situation resolved in that way.

As I said earlier, I, personally, would not have even brought the issue up because in my interpretation of your rules, it isn't even close to being a violation.

I completely understand what your position is regarding the larger "concerns" house-sitting might encompass, but it would probably have been healthier to simply bring up that topic as a larger, broader concern/issue rather than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole over something that, at best, was marginal.

I would feel differently, no doubt, if the house-sitting had generated reports of noise nuisance, illegal parking, or other community-disturbing violations, but it didn't.

Anyway, enjoy the wine. I prefer tequila myself! I look forward to hearing more from you on future issues and hope you feel comfortable joining some other discussions here from other neighborhood leaders and add your own perspective to some of the issues we all face!
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Marianne:

I agree with you, I see no problem bringing this to the boards attention, it is their job to determine what is the rul or not. I would make a suggestion that if this is a hot topic in your neighborhood go about addressing your visitor definition and rules and not wait unil the next time it happens. It is easier to be proactive than reactive
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Marianne,

Glad to see the outcome of your post. As for bringing dissension, I didn't mena to imply that you would intentionally stir it up and be a disliked person. Often times such things occur because of unintended consequences. The world is full of unintended consequences.

A perfect example of the rule of unintended consequences is the use of RICO act. The act was passed for the express purpose of taking the Mafia down. Now it is being used on a regular basis against people who are no where close to what they law was written for.

But consider that some in your neighborhood probably would like to see grandchildren limited to a few hours a day for a few days a year. Others simply want one person to "be of age." Neither will focus on your concern about the house sitter. Yet they will likely come together to bicker should an amendment to stop such come up. This has nothing to do with you. I know you wouldn't set this up intentionally. But it will happen should some amendment come up about the issue.

I would say that the concern for the person on the other side of the wall is a good concern. And should house sitters disturb the person (or anyone else) with noise then you have a problem. Basically I believe that house sitters should quietly do their thing and not seek out attention. Their interaction aside from a passing greeting should be limited to others engaging them. Essentially, they should try to be a blessing to anyone they come into contact with.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Marianne - your association is under HUD guidelines.

THOSE guidelines will resolve all this discussion.

My mother is in HUD housing. "Guests" may stay only a certain number of days. You need to find that in your HUD paperwork.

The Board then needs to print those guidelines in the newletter.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Susan,

There are different types of HUD housing. Marianne's community is a 55+ community, which is under HUD, but I don't recall her saying it was low-cost housing. The type HUD housing to which you refer I believe is HUD low-cost housing. I don't recall the 55+ community standards mentioning anything about "guests".
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mary,
You are correct. The HUD housing Laws have the 55+ communities as a subsection with it's own set of laws. I'll put very good money that it was placed there because no one in the Gov't knew what to file it under.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
From Googling "HUD housing 55 and older" Q & A

Question 21
How is the calculation for the 80/20 percent requirement affected if a 55 or older individual purchases a dwelling in a senior housing facility/community, vacates the unit, and allows an underage adult relative to move in for an indefinite length of time?

Answer
In calculating whether a community/facility meets the 80 percent requirement, it is the occupants of the dwelling units who are counted, not the owners. In this example, the current resident, the underage adult relative, would be counted in the 20 percent portion. Similarly, if a 55 or older owner/occupant decided to vacate a unit for an indefinite period of time and rent to an underage individual, the current occupant would be counted in the 20 percent portion.

Question 22
Are there circumstances under which a 55 or older owner/tenant might be temporarily absent from a dwelling without affecting the exemption status of the community/dwelling?

Answer
Yes. For example, the 55 or older occupant may be on vacation, hospitalized, or absent for a season without affecting the exempt status of the community. The resident may, if he/she wishes, allow a younger relative or a house sitter under 55 years if age to live in the unit during this absence. In either event, the unit would be included in the calculation of the 80 percent occupancy requirement as long as the dwelling is not rented out, the owner/tenant returns on a periodic basis, and maintains legal and financial responsibility for the upkeep of the dwelling.

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