BBQ at the ol condominium > HOA Forum

Unanswered

Active Topics

Forums

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions

Subject: BBQ at the ol condominium

Prev Next

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 1 of 2

Author

Messages

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 3:00 AM
This subject is a hot potato at our place. A condominium ocean side that has a large # of rental (short term, weekly rentals). Somewhere around 50 %. We have a facility that is and has been desinated "The Bar B Que Area" since 1981 when constructed. Our Rules of conduct stipulate that only the BBQ area will be used for burning the food. The rule is enforced primarily by the few residents that live here full time and an occasional manager decree. Our Board, in their ifinite wisdom voted to suppy and maintain large gas grills (four burners). I was, am and will continue to be oppossed to this prctice, for way too many reason to list here. This spring and summer is the time for recalls to start popping up for faulty grills that have failed the test of usage. This has happened to us. Every grill I have ever seen, when you open the package has a clear warning that these grills, all of the them, should never be left unattended. You can see where all this is headed, My interest is: How do other condominiums handle this serious problem when the Board has decided to expose all the members to the dangers, both rel and imagined. We are cotemplating buying additional gas grills because there have been serious incidents with previous gas grills. To cut to the point, I can not see how we can provide the apparatus, provide the space, provide the consumable (gas and maintainemce), use the manager to spend his time and our money. In my mind, it borders on insanity to do this, and God knows what liability, if for no other reason, when we place a grills there for public (renter)or for that matter, owner use, or visitor or what have you, and, you cannot and you know you can not insure these grills are attended at all times, as stipulated, to maintain any kind of warranty; are you liable. I say a resounding "yes." How do other condominiums handle this?

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

07/26/2008 11:32 AM
SCRAP METAL IS PAYING WELL NOW. BACK THE PICKUP NEXT TO THEM AND MAKE SOME EXTRA CASH.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:2117

07/26/2008 12:42 PM
Your Board needs to develop a list of pros and cons for having these grills. How much are they used? What do the members (residents) think? Is this in your scope of your mission? What is the cost? I can imagine that the residents will be upset, so I'd tread carefully, here. No one likes their amentities taken away!

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:455

07/26/2008 12:42 PM
"Our Rules of conduct stipulate that only the BBQ area will be used for burning the food" I'd rather just cook the food. If yer gunna burn it who would want to eat it!

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1362

07/26/2008 3:18 PM
You might want to make a call to the local Fire Marshall and find out if there is some kind of state or local code that the grills are violating. For instance Ohio passed a law prohibiting the use or storage of grills on decks or within 10 feet of combustible construction in any multifamily building larger than a duplex. I would think that constant exposure to salt air would cause these grills, gas tanks and fittings to deteriorate at an even faster than normal pace, which would require constant replacement. As for requiring constant supervision of the user you do it like any other amenity make the rule and enforce if you find someone violating it. That is unless you want to raise dues and hire the equivalent of a lifeguard for your grill area. Maybe build a nice chair with an umbrella for them to sit and watch over the grills.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1732

07/26/2008 3:20 PM
robert, you are correct that the association, because they supply the grills, owns much of the liability for them. you might win a case or two if you could prove that the grills were in good shape, and it was the fault of the operator that caused the problem. But, that will almost always require good solid records. I would want to know that the HOA had weekly checks in summer months of the grills, ignitors, flues, venturis, etc., and that all mfg recommended items were done. without those types of evidence, it wouldn't be hard for someone to convince a jury that "sure, I wasn't paying attention, but the grill was a time bomb waiting to explode!". if they remain, insist on routine cleanings, checks, and make sure your insurance company knows, so you can expect them to pay for any damages.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2796

07/26/2008 3:47 PM
Susan, I see an opening here because Robert said that in the Boards infinite wisdom, they bought and installed these grills. The association had the designated spot for the grills but it sounds like the BOD installed grills. Probably . the residents brought their own grills over to the area. If that be the case, then the Board can remove the Robert?? We need a history here!!

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:07 PM
Donna, Isn't it suprising how incisive humor can be. We did indeed haul a couple back for refund or to the dump. Then pass the vote to buy more.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:24 PM
Susan, My concernis not for how anyone likes or dislike Gas Grills. I am looking for other condominiums that has had the same problems, and surely most must address this issue somehow, what are their rules and how do they enforce the requirement that you agree (in effect) not to leave the lite grills unattended. We have issued rules that state all BBQ will be done in a designated BBQ area. Bad enough with Charcoal, now they have added Gas grills, we have had two serious fire mishaps (no injuries) since the first of the year, and actually had a defective gas grill catch on fire and end up literally burning the metal. No kidding, the stainless was manufactured wrong and the mangesium content was so high in the steel it burnt and consumed the metal. (reports state)The grills have been recalled, incidently the recall was listed with consumer reports, NewsTV stations and Lowes. It was some models called Perfect Flame and is available by Google listed Perfect Flame Gas Grills. No secret there. I still am trying to run down how do Condominiums handle the BBQ situation. Ir really has nothing to do with us or involve what and how we handle it, I know that.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:31 PM
How does your condo regulate the practice Susan? Thank you

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:34 PM
Same question as before DJ, how does your condo regulate this and enforce the safety requirements.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:44 PM
Glen, You are on target with your observations about salt air, etc. I am just suprised to see no one has said, if you can't enforce a regulation, especially a safety regulation then don't have the grills. I am not speaking specifically to full time resident condos, my concern is high rental (short term condos) I have discussed this with Fire Chief and the jury is still out about that. How do you all handle it. I found out recently that we have areas in our complex that are called "Inherently dangerous", such as seawall, beach, etc. Has anyone ever run across this wording and does it mean anything? I have only lived here full time for over 19 years, but obviously I have missed a lot.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 4:53 PM
Brian, Thank you, and could not agree more. I am not going to you anything about what we do under preventative measures, But I will say if we were on top of the issue(In my opinion) I wouldn;t be writing this. As noted in another post here I have just found out we are supposed to have inherently dangerous areas in our complex. If real this may open a door to include the BBQ area under that designation.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 5:05 PM
Donna, You are right, sorta. The Board has been trying to remove ol Robert for lots of years, preferably to Brazil. I see no problem with a resident or renter bringing there own grill and using it in the BBQ area, after all it is their grill and their responsibility. The board did install the grill if puting them in a designated area constitutes "Installed." They are on wheel and are moved around at will. The history I addressed in another posting. Now we seem to be going the wrong way on a one way street.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:131

07/26/2008 6:19 PM
We're not near the ocean but have had a couple of commercial charcoal grills mounted in concrete for about a dozen or more years with no problems.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/26/2008 6:39 PM
Tony, Thanks. If you have had them there for 12 years, I would assume there are in a designated area. Anything special about the area, is it signed and who has use of them?. Is it covered in your doscuments.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:455

07/26/2008 7:37 PM
Posted By RobertR1 on 07/26/2008 4:34 PM Same question as before DJ, how does your condo regulate this and enforce the safety requirements. Wouldn't touch it with a 10' barbeque lighter Robert. Why increase the liability of the Association. Get rid of them or ensure you have PLENTY of insurance and if residents balk then tell em how much the extra liability insurance is gonna cost each home each month.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/27/2008 5:22 AM
Thanks for your answer DJ. All the crap cut off this is probably the way to go. Of course, that don't mean much. I had done some internet searching and for as common a practice as this has got to be there is very little information. Google, Condo,Gas Grills, rentals and about all you get is folks trying to rent condos with a electric grill in the unit. There are several pictures of some high end market huge condos that have professional gas grills lined up in a garden area. All classy stuff, built into a serving bar, and Pristine appearing. Either they provide cooks or there is not much grilling done there. Much too fancy for someone looking to BBQ a couple of burgers.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:529

07/27/2008 12:10 PM
Posted By RobertR1 on 07/26/2008 3:00 AM Our Rules of conduct stipulate that only the BBQ area will be used for burning the food. Robert, Really? Burn food; not cook it? So, if I leave a pot unattended on my kitchen stove and I burn my food in the kitchen I am in violation? Sorry Robert, I just saw a little humor in your apparent mis-quote and I just had to have a little fun. Unfortunately, I can’t give you an opinion based on experience with association-owned grills. Our community consists of single-family homes and we have no central barbecue area. We have an annual community picnic on the clubhouse grounds once a year, but the members bring a few of their own grills and, of course, they are all well attended. I did live in a community that had a BBQ area with association-owned grills, but I don’t remember much about them. So, whether or not having a designated area with association-owned grills is a good idea or not I can’t say. But I think I can provide some food for thought. 1. Cost. As far as cost being an issue, I think that’s a decision for the board and the members. If the board sees fit to include the costs associated with a BBQ area in the budget, and if the homeowners agree to it or don’t object to it, then I see that as a non-issue. 2. Liability. Checking with the fire marshal is a good idea, but what about checking with your insurance company? Does the HOA’s insurance company consider the barbecues an additional risk? Will they cover any claims that arise against the association out of BBQ use? Is there any extra premium involved? Most policies are risk-based and risks are determined by statistics. So, if the insurance company doesn’t consider the association-owned barbecues an additional liability, then the board has no reason to either. That, then, also becomes a non-issue. Keep in mind, too, that a claim could possibly be made against the association arising out of the use of any common area, including the BBQ area, whether the grills are association-owned or privately owned. Gas grills are not necessarily more dangerous than charcoal grills if they are properly maintained. True, gas is explosive, but so is charcoal lighter fluid. Any portable grill, whether gas or not, can be tipped over unless it is very heavy or fastened in some way. If a user doesn’t follow proper procedure in lighting, either type can blow up in the person’s face. 3. If you decide to supply BBQ grills, consider the following: A. Don’t leave the grills loose. Make sure they are chained to some solid, fixed object (such a large, heavy block of cement) to prevent them from being stolen. Look at ways to fasten grills so they can't be tipped over. B. Consider placing a few fire extinguishers in convenient locations. C. Consider posting conspicuous signs stating users may not leave grills unattended and that they assume all responsibility for any liability arising out of their use. Make sure you’ve posted safety rules for their use and proper lighting procedures. If a user doesn’t follow proper procedure and the grill blows up in his face while trying to light it (which can happen whether it’s a gas grill or not), then at least you’re covered. Signs may not prevent someone from filing a claim against the association, but they may make it more difficult to collect. D. Establish a procedure for a committee to periodically clean and inspect every grill and remove any that are found to be questionable. Establish a check list for the committee to use for the inspection. Establish repair or replacement criteria. I remove all parts and clean my gas grill periodically, and I have to replace parts (especially burners) every couple of years because they eventually rust or burn out. E. Consider supplying charcoal grills instead of gas grills. Many state and municipal parks supply charcoal grills for people to use, but not gas grills. Charcoal grills are less costly to replace and require less maintenance. Furthermore, people would be required to supply their own charcoal and charcoal lighter. (And, I’ve heard people say charcoal grilled food tastes better.) You asked for my opinion. There it is.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

07/27/2008 7:53 PM
Wow, I would never have thought of providing people with a grill and gas supply to cook (or burn as they desire) their food. I have seen many a place provide for charcoal grills for resident use and this makes a good amount of sense. (By having a grill mounted where you want people to cook they are less likely to not bother bringing the one they own down to use and then back to store.) I would say that you probably should do the following: 1) Expect the manager to use due diligence and check to see if your grills are the subject of a recall should he/she one published. 2) Put in (and maintain) fire extinguishers in the area. 3) Put up signs "use at your own risk." 4) Put in the newsletter "use at your own risk." 5) Make renters sign a notice that they will "use at their own risk." If it were me I would not be happy that the association was supplying the gas. But if they insisted I guess I would have to grill often to get my money's worth from the situation.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/30/2008 10:14 PM
To all, Showdown time is approaching and I need some additional advice, so let me add a few item for stimulation. The real reason for the grills was as always around here; The rental majority want them to attract rental business, if not totally, then certainly in part. This is a fact. Our management ha s accumulated several small BBQ grills that renters have left behind and placed them in an area that is safe, however, NONE of the grills, charcoal Weber Large, 1 remaining gas grill that a door is falling off, all instructions have faded off and the grates are caked with God knows what. None of these grills are secured to anything. And as I said the Board just voted to buy two new Gas Webers. I can't see any past justification to continue the practice, but would compromise for two Large Webers Charcoal, no lighter fluid, signed, etc, etc, and chained to the concrete wall. There is plenty of room if folks want to bring their own grills and use them safely. Up off the ground on a large tiled bench, out of reach of kids and even a sink provided. Why do you think our Board is being so blind to this reality. I would even appreciate someone telling me I am full of crap and being unreasonable.

MikeS1

Posts:0

07/31/2008 3:24 AM
Someone in this posting suggested checking with the local Fire Marshall or Fire Dept and that's an excellent idea. I knoow in most beach areas (like Corolla, NC, OB, where we go every year), you absolutely WON'T see a gas grill anywhere (especially on a deck). Most of the homes all have the Camper style charcaol grill that you see everywhere in Parks and it's permanently installed at least 15 ft away from the home or any strucure. Not many people use them since the wind is usually always blowing and they have no top cover. Water and water pressure can be a problem at the beach, so the Fire Dept down there has banned gas grills on decks. They might have banned them altogether since I've never seen one in over 8 years down there. Having these gas grills there under these circustances does seem like a bad idea. I hope that you all at least have good insurance coverage. Let us know how this comes out.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/31/2008 4:37 AM
MikeS, Thanks for the comments. Your evaluation is on target and I agree. It also seems a "no brainer" to me, but man, am I wrong about that. You have one side, me, trying to find information that agree with what I say. You have the Board side, which flat out can't see it, then here I am again trying to comb the Internet to support the use of gas grills in public places, and the Board sitting back, not willing to justify their decisions other that with a secret vote. Aren't condos fun. Then the crowning jewel is to try and get our fire chief to make a decision. I have tried for months to get a response from him, and he just will not answer the call. We are a private island with our own FD and paid firemen with some volunteers. The developer and the people that are engaged with the tourist trade are naturally looking at bottom line. Our condois a separate entity, but we also come under the umbrella of the island POA. Certainly this is not a matter for the POA as long as we do not violate their coveants. The police ar run by the POA and they are very supportive, as is the FD until it comes to this grill question. The FD will support the restriction of no grilling on decks and agree all grilling should be done in a restricted appropriate area, which we have. But, somewhere in this mish mash is the reason I can not get the FD to make a decision for or against gas brills, in writing. There are suggestions of signage and warning like, "DO not leave this grill unattended", blah blah. The whole world know that is not going to be effective and yet, there is the sign. But. in a nut shell this problem can't be solved correctly with proper authorties. I know it has a lot to do with the position our FD takes regards private residences. We have huge commerce here generated by the renting of units, this helps the bottom line of the developer, and keeps the club members (Club non-equity with golf course and all the bells and whistles)coming back for their yearly amenities cards). Somewhere in there is the reason and I can't flush it out, and never have been able to. I know, I could be wrong and that wouldn't bother me, if I knew why I didn't make sense.

MikeS1

Posts:0

07/31/2008 6:17 AM
Robert - Do you think that the S.C. State Fire Marshall might be able to provide more information on this or help you is this regard? (http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp). The other thought that I had on this issue stems from the fact that these days, insurance is sometimes difficult to retain and/or acqquire. Many insurance carriers are not writing ANY insurance in coastal areas and have reduced their coverage (IE-stripping out windstorm coverages or they might slap you with a huge deductible or co-insurance provision). Some folks think that buying insurance is like buying groceries...Well.... it's not. Finding a new insurance carrier is a royal pain. It's not that simple and it's almost like having good credit and protecting your credit rating. If you shopping for insurance, your prospective insurer will ask for and acquire a loss history statement from the COA and/or the current insurance carrier. They are looking for prior claims, types of claims, and frequency of claims when they evaluate, underwrite or consider the risk. The prospective carrier will also have a risk manager from loss control services survey the property and look for the potential liability risks as well as problems that might cause physical risks or damage to the property. There are lots of insurance companies that provide loss control and risk management services to their customers for free. Just ask... Here's where I'm going with this. Insurance at the beach is too precious and hard to get, so you might want to confer with the agent for your insurance company and see what they say about this. I feel sure that they might have some thoughts for you on this isssue. They may even have one of their engineers survey the property for you as a service and perhaps their feedback as well as the loss control engineer, might jar the BOD back into reality. Good luck.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

07/31/2008 9:49 AM
Did some checking and turns out that gas grills are responsible for more home fires then charcoal. (http://tinyurl.com/3z2qpq). Most or the fires are due to leaks in the gas lines. Now having said this, if I were in your place I would go for the gas over charcoal for safety reasons. Here are my thoughts: 1) You can manage the leaks of the gas grills. Add a task to the maintenance crew to spray the lines with soapy water each week to check for leaks. This takes little time and manages the main risk. 2) The leading cause of fire when charcoal is involved is lighter fluid. While you can post signs, and have people sign statements, someone will bring the stuff anyway. And said genius says he knows how to prevent the fire as he sprays it on a failed lighting attempt. And god knows what to do about the guy who gets some gas from the jet ski. 3) The gas grill remains hot for a lot less time. You turn it on, wait less time and start cooking. When done you turn it off and it has cooled considerably before the meal is over. Charcoal is still hot three hours after dinner. My big concern would be cost. And tot hat end, I would insist that the whole thing be paid for with a surcharge to the rentals. Since the HOA is providing grills for their benefit, they should pay for the service. You could charge a fee for each week the unit is rented. Said fee should recoup the cost of the grills and pay for gas. By the way, you should also include several fire extinguishers in the area. They should be looked over when checking for gas leaks. If you have natural gas service then you might want to get convertible grills. Then at some point you could bring out the natural gas and eliminate some of the places that are likely to leak.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/31/2008 4:39 PM
Kirk, That's much appreciated. I can bring up the url you noted. I have also clipped and pasted......didn't help.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

07/31/2008 4:41 PM
Kirk, Of course I mean to say, "I could not find the url.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:1110

07/31/2008 6:49 PM
It works for me, but here is the full URL; http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=298&itemID=18346&URL=Research%20&%20Reports/Fact%20sheets/Seasonal%20safety/Grilling&cookie%5Ftest=1&cookie%5Ftest=1

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:2157

08/01/2008 3:25 PM
Robert, Wouldn't it be so much easier and less costly to just have charcoal grills? IMO, the meat tastes much better, too. :-)

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2074

08/01/2008 3:48 PM
MaryA1, YES. But try getting this past a board that does not take kindly to information, a manager that does or does not reveal where he is coming from, and last, but far from least, when the Board President and the majority of the board are absentee owners that rent and advertize their unit competetively on the internet market and realize the value of: Condo for rent, ocean front, wonderful garden and even GAs Grill supplied for you pleasure. I even addressed this bunch as asked them to provide me with a similar condo that provide community gas grills. No takers yet and there will not be any because bottom line rules. Thanks for the thought. I expect I will lose this battle unless I can get some agency to say: Bad idea. One poster here said they have not had any trouble in 12 years. They use heavy cast charcoal grills that have been sunk in concrete. I doubt they advertixe to come om down and use our charcoal grills embedded in concrete, but who's more right and more safe, the concrete immovable ones.

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 1 of 2

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > BBQ at the ol condominium