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KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/14/2008 6:48 PM
I could use some direction: Our HOA President sent out our monthly newsletter last week which had a section informing homeowners that they have until July 19th to remove their washer and dryers (unless previously approved by the board AND the city) or they would be "heavily fined". Our president, her best friend and one other tenant are the only three people who are allowed to keep their washers and dryers. Their reason is that the plumbing can not support the water usage of washers and dryer and they (HOA) can not afford the cost of extra water being used. Regarding the plumbing I asked our HOA manager who would pay for damages done by the three people allowed to keep washers and dryer and he said the association would! When we asked the president at our last meeting if she would remove her washer and dryer she said no, I reminder her that was a huge conflict of interest and she personally attacked me and tried to get my husband kicked out of the meeting. Our washer and dryer were installed over three and a half years ago (six months prior to us having an HOA and a year and a half before the rules and regulations were adopted) now they are changing the rules and forcing homeowners to comply (except those three people). We were told that we could put in washers and dryers when we purchased our condo in 2005. I contacted our city building department and was cleared to get a permit; however, the HOA is still saying they will not approve my washer and dryer because it's after the fact. Yet, the rule is not official, no official letters were sent and the homeowners have not had the 30 days required to comment on the proposed rule change. I asked our HOA if they would be informing homeowners of this right (to comment) and they said no. They are saying the newsletter was the violation notice and the rule change notice. Her comment "the association pays for the water and we won't allow it." I reminded her that I, as a homeowner, pay for the water to which she told me she would not argue with me. What course of action can we take to make sure our rights as homeowners are being upheld? Side question: is an HOA Newsletter an offical document? One that can inform people of violations and office rule changes? Don't they have to send out letters to individuals?

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:915

07/14/2008 8:50 PM
I consider our newsletter to be an official document. But having said that, important information should be highlighted as such.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1646

07/14/2008 9:36 PM
taking what you say as truthful, then your board is dead wrong. you have three real options: talk to them and educate them on the error of their ways remove them from office through proper channels sue them.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:915

07/15/2008 6:51 AM
In looking back over this I wonder who they know who has a washer and dryer. And did I catch this correct that you have a permit for one from the city??? (Sorry that is off the point for you, but I would never imagine a permit for a washer or dryer.) You are correct that the president sure has a strong appearance of conflict of interest in letting herself and a friend keep their washers. Unfortunately your only options are going to cost either time or money (and possibly both). The time option is to recall the board. And don't stop with the president since she didn't do this on her own. This takes time as you need to collect signatures for the recall election. Then you need to gather proxy votes to ensure the election goes as planned. You may also have to file a suit if she digs in her heals and refuses to acknowledge the recall effort. The other method is to sue her and the board at large. This of course takes money.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

07/15/2008 8:22 AM
Kim, There may be more to this story, but here are my observations based on what you posted: 1. Your president has no authority, unless directed by the board, or the authority is established in some other way, for example, in your bylaws. So, did the BOD establish the rule of no washers and dryers or did the president make this one up? What does it say in the minutes? 2. I do not consider a newsletter to be "official" notice. At least, in our HOA, it isn't. Our CCRs and our state laws require that official notices be either hand-delivered (handed over in person) or distributed via first-class U.S. mail. What do your CCRs and state laws require for official notices? If your newsletter doesn't meet those criteria, then it isn't official notice. Newsletters are poor vehicles for distributing official notices anyway. Some people consider newsletters trivial and don't read them thoroughly, if at all. Letters work better. 3. CCRs and rules must be enforced equitably. They apply to everyone, even your board president. No exceptions. So, if your president can keep her washer and dryer, there has to be an avenue for other members of your community to do so, too. If not, then hers has to go. 4. If the rule was established AFTER you had your washer and dryer several years, then it may not be enforceable. If washers and dryers were permitted when you moved in, then the rule is being enforced retroactively. I know state laws cannot be applied retroactively (in other words, the state cannot pass a law making what you did yesterday illegal and then arrest you for it), so I doubt that a court would enforce it, but, you never know. It may depend on if the rule was established in accordance with your governing documents. From the information you have provided, it sounds to me like your president may not have much of a leg to stand on. If the problem is the cost of the water, then if the association pays for it, the annual cost should be divided equally and included in the association fee charged to the homeowners. Simple. That may be a bit unfair, since people's water usage differs, but the only way around that is to install meters on every unit and bill for water separately, or have it billed directly by whomever supplies the water. I doubt the usage difference is that great, but if the association wants to go the meter route it probably wouldn't cost the association anything. The cost of providing and installing the meters could be paid for by each unit owner. And, that may not cost anything anyway because water companies often include that as part of their overhead and include it as part of the monthly bill. Here are a couple of questions: The plumbing cannot support the water usage of a washer and dryer? Are they assuming everyone has their washer going at the same time? How much water does a dryer use anyway?

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/15/2008 8:54 AM
Hi All, We don't have a permit, we are trying to get one. Either way the board said it won't matter because they too have to approve washers and dryers and according to someone at the city they won't give our permits unless we give them a letter from the HOA that we are okay to have one (which they won't give out). I too agree that having a permit ($170+ cost so far) for a washer and dryer seems like a bit much. I also don't see how an HOA can decide on what permits the city will or will not issue, why do they even have a say in it. I am waiting to hear if this is a new rule or a current rule, our HOA manager was not sure. If it's a new rule we have 30 days to comment. If it's an exhisting rule then I told him I want to start the process to have that rule changed, which he said is lengthy. I did see this in the rules: "One of the primary functions of the Association is to ensure that the policies and procedures set forth in the Governing Documents, including these Rules and Regluations, are observed by all owners and tenants. The objective of the enforcemnet of the Rules and Regluations is to preserve the value of the project, as well as to ensure that owners and tenantes are treated fairly, and that everyone follows the enforecement procedure." So I asked our HOA manager, why not everyone is following the same rules and I reminded him that it's not fair to allow certain individuals to have certain exceptions to these rules. He said the decision was final.

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/15/2008 9:16 AM
Hi Bruce, First to address your last questions. Yeah, it’s weird that the plumbing can not support the washer and dryer. It’s tied into the pipe right after the sink and dishwasher. So any water from those drains into the same plumbing. I can’t imagine our washer (engery efficient model) uses more water then if we filled the sink with water or what the dishwasher uses. As for the dryer, haha, I know. Either way they can’t make me get rid of my machine and if I wanted to I can at least dry my clothes. 1. I think this is a board decision. The problem is she has a lot of influence over the board members. One is a complete push over, at the last meeting, she actually told her to be quite and stuck her had in her face (the president to the other board member). I have to get a copy of the minutes. 2. That is what I said, most people don’t read the newsletters so they can’t expect that to be a valid vehicle to deliver such important information. Yet they are... 3. See my last reply, I agree 100%. 4. That is what I said; we did not have an HOA for six months and no rules and regulations for almost two years. Washers and Dryers were allowed until recently. The manager said that only a few units are setup properly to have washer and dryers and I told him, good then those people should be allowed to have them, if the city permits. But he still said no. So I said, if my unit, plumbing, electrical, water usage, permit is all the same as the presidents then I too should be allowed to have a washer and dryer. He again said no. I have been reviewing our governing docs, CC&R;s, By Law’s, Rules, etc and nothing say’s no washer or dryer is allowed.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

07/15/2008 9:22 AM
IMO, the city should not be "enforcing" the HOA rules. By failing to issue a permit, IMO, that's what they are doing. You said: "So I asked our HOA manager, why not everyone is following the same rules and I reminded him that it's not fair to allow certain individuals to have certain exceptions to these rules. He said the decision was final." The response, "the decision was final" sounds to me like a cop-out. To me it means, "I don't have a good answer."

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/15/2008 11:30 AM
You are right, they don't have a good answer. No answer would ever be fair. My H at the HOA meeting asked the president directly if she would remove her washer and dryer and she just kept saying to keep her out of it. Then personally attacked us and would talk over us. I don't think it's even a rule yet, so they can't even enforce it.

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/15/2008 11:30 AM
You are right, they don't have a good answer. No answer would ever be fair. My H at the HOA meeting asked the president directly if she would remove her washer and dryer and she just kept saying to keep her out of it. Then personally attacked us and would talk over us. I don't think it's even a rule yet, so they can't even enforce it.

JeanneK3
(Maryland)

Posts:120

07/15/2008 12:42 PM
If there is nothing in your bylaws about not being able to have a washer/drier, then there is no basis for the rule. Try to talk to the association's attorney and have him/her explain limits to your president. The attorney works for the association, not the board. Insist he/she speak to you.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:175

07/15/2008 10:18 PM
Brain is right: -talk to them and educate them on the error of their ways -remove them from office through proper channels -sue them. Rules in CA are subject to Ca CC 1357.100 thru 1357.150, the 30 day comment period you mention. I don’t understand why so many boards have so much trouble following the law. Mine included. Jane

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1888

07/16/2008 2:27 AM
Posted By JeanneK3 on 07/15/2008 12:42 PM If there is nothing in your bylaws about not being able to have a washer/drier, then there is no basis for the rule. Try to talk to the association's attorney and have him/her explain limits to your president. The attorney works for the association, not the board. Insist he/she speak to you. Jeanne, Good luck on talking to the assn attorney! The attorney may work for the assn but the board members are "agents" of the assn. The members may make up the assn but they don't run it, the board does. And, this is why the attorney only answers to the board and only speaks to the board.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

07/16/2008 7:09 AM
Posted By MaryA1 on 07/16/2008 2:27 AM Posted By JeanneK3 on 07/15/2008 12:42 PM If there is nothing in your bylaws about not being able to have a washer/drier, then there is no basis for the rule. Try to talk to the association's attorney and have him/her explain limits to your president. The attorney works for the association, not the board. Insist he/she speak to you. Jeanne, Good luck on talking to the assn attorney! The attorney may work for the assn but the board members are "agents" of the assn. The members may make up the assn but they don't run it, the board does. And, this is why the attorney only answers to the board and only speaks to the board. Our association attorney was asked to chair the meeting of the homeowners when we elected our first board at developer turnover. When he described his role and his relationship to the association, he told the homeowners that he worked for the association and therefore worked for all of them, but not as individuals. "So", he went on to say, "that means if your board asks me a question, I bill the association. If you ask me a question, I bill you."

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/16/2008 9:22 AM
Would this help in making sure everyone has to follow the rules, thus ensuring that the President and her friend must abide by the same rules as everyone else? CC1354: "The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes, unless unreasonable, and shall inure to the benefit of and bind all owners of separate interests in the development. Unless the declaration states otherwise, these servitudes may be enforced by any owner of a separate interest or by the association, or by both."

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

07/16/2008 10:07 AM
Bruce, Though we don't have an HOA attorney (nor a helipad, both because the need hasn't arisen), your guy gave the perfect statement as to his duties, fees and relationships. Good for him.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1888

07/16/2008 3:13 PM
Bruce, My thanks to your assn's attorney for reinforcing my thoughts on the subject! :-)

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1804

07/16/2008 6:01 PM
Kim - are you sure that the "rule" is that there will be no more NEW installatins of washer/dryers in the units? Am I reading this right that you don't have yours set up yet and are seeking a permit? In any case, ask to see the minutes of the meeting where a motion was made and passed that implements this new "rule" Your Board may be saying that the HOA has reached its capacity for waste water and the system can't take any more.

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/17/2008 8:01 AM
Hi All, We have had our washer and dryer in for three and a half years. We never got a permit, but are in the process now. The board is saying we have to remove the washer and dryer. They are syaing that even if we get a permit tomorrow, it won't matter because they also need to approve them and won't. Basically they have approved only three homeowners to have washers and dryers and they can keep their's. Everyone else has to remove their unit. I did ask for the meeting minutes, two days ago. I am going to follow up with the HOA manager today.

KimM8
(California)

Posts:55

07/17/2008 2:38 PM
I just had the Jan., Feb., Apri, and May meeting minutes sent to me an none of them discussed washers and dryers or plumbing issues. I sent a reply back for June, March and 2007's minutes. Maybe they will say something.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1301

07/17/2008 5:34 PM
Kim were the units built with washers and dryers in mind? Meaning is there a specific area set aside with water hookups and a drain for the washer / ductwork and sufficient electric or gas for the dryer? Does your CC&R's have any specific language requiring BOD approval before installation? Since your city requires a permit for the washer/dryer why have you waited for three and a half years to get it?

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