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BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/08/2008 5:25 PM
another post made me think about this issue, and i wondered if folks would share their definitions of commercial vehicles. In California, for example, ALL pick up trucks are licensed as commercial vehicles by the state. Unless you define them separately in your docs, that's probably one of the definitions that sticks. In some places, i have seen them defined as vehicles with advertising on them, logo's, etc.. Some folks have a nice definition that includes advertising for a business, certain size restrictions on the ads, etc.. What I am most interested in is how an HOA splits their definitions regarding advertising on a vehicle: does that include license plate frames? Bumper stickers? magnetic signs on the side, or a Mary Kay sticker in the rear window? Does a "logo" include the Ford logo, CHevy Chevron, Dodge Ram emboss on the side, etc.? Can i park a Yellow NAPA parts truck there, or a yellow Dewalt Tools truck? How about a Domino's car, with the little light bar on top?

JaneK
(California)

Posts:172

07/09/2008 10:46 PM
Brian, Regarding commercial vehicles, our docs state "...as determined by board..." Jane

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/10/2008 6:11 AM
and what does your board say? how do they define them?

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/10/2008 9:13 AM
Brian, We have a terrible definition currently. But we are getting ready to revise some of our documents so here is a starting point: A commercial vehicle shall be defined by any one of the following: 1) A vehicle rated to carry more then one ton. 2) A vehicle with advertising signs on it. (For the purposes of this covering signs with magnetic overlays shall eliminate the burden provided the magnetic overlays closely match the color of the vehicles.) 3) Vans with visible OSHA safety racks. 4) Any vehicle with equipment or supply racks. I am sure that more refinements can be made to this. If your association is in the process of revising their documents I would recommend you open the process up to the membership. It will give the following benefits: 1) You learn what concerns your vocal residents. 2) It builds community since they input into the rules. 3) People involved will help try to sell the rule changes. 4) Eliminates (or at least reduces) accusations of being elitist and shutting people out.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/10/2008 9:39 AM
So Kirk, by your current definitions, would a license plate holder from a car dealership make a car a commercial vehicle? second, what is the difference between items 3 and 4? I am not familiar with the OSHA Rack thing, for example. WHat is that? Just for argument, would a van with an MSHA rack be okay then, since MSHA and OSHA are different agencies?

PatR
(Florida)

Posts:132

07/10/2008 10:19 AM
Although we do have a few people with smaller commercial vehicles, vans, and those with lettering on the vehicel, our biggest problem is that the builder also included pickup trucks in the mix...They are not allowed.... Well, half the community has pick-ups and the past two BOD's did not enforce this rule..It comes up at every meeting, some want them gone, those who have them, of course, tell the BOD how beautiful and expensive they are. As a Board, very should be enforcing all the rules, but frankly, I'm more concerned about the pit bulls that we don't allow either. I know if we send out compliance letters re the pickups, we might just get a quorum at the annual meeting! Pat

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/10/2008 10:34 AM
I have never considered a license plate holder a sign. But you may want to define a sign if that is a concern. But if your don't define a term it will hold the "common meaning." I don't think it would be common for people to consider a license plate holder to be signs. Nor would the average person consider the emblem car dealers are so fond of attaching to vehicles. All the same, you may wish to define a sign as greater then say 50 square inches. As for the difference between my numbers 3 and 4, what I called an OSHA rack goes inside a van to keep the contents of the rear from reaching the driver. The other racks refer to those on the exterior of the vehicle for carrying ladders and the like. I mention equipment and material to try and be comprehensive. IF you say a ladder rack, then you have left out a rack too small to carry a ladder but obviously for commercial purposes such as to carry plumbing pipes.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/10/2008 10:36 AM
... our biggest problem is that the builder also included pickup trucks in the mix...They are not allowed.... Well, half the community has pick-ups and the past two BOD's did not enforce this rule.. Your board should put out a notice of intent to change the rule stipulating that without the rule change they will start enforcement.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1223

07/10/2008 12:12 PM
Our documents which were written in 1992 contains this: No part of the Common or Limited Common Elements shall be used for parking of any trailer, truck, boat, or anything other than operative automobiles and motorcycles. The word “trailer” shall include trailer coach, house trailer, mobile home, auto-mobile trailer, campcar, camper or any other vehicle, whether or not self-propelled, constructed or existing in such manner as would permit the use and occupancy thereof for human habitation, for storage, or the conveyance of machinery, tools or equipment whether resting on wheels, jacks, tires or other foundation. The word “truck” shall include and mean every type of motor vehicle other than passenger cars and other than any pickup truck which is used as the automobile vehicle by a family member occupying one of said Units.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1223

07/10/2008 12:18 PM
Not to hijack the thread but since license plate frames were brought up, what about bumper stickers. Since technically they are a sign advertising a company, thought or political view, must they also be covered when not parked in the garage and visible to the public view?

PatR
(Florida)

Posts:132

07/10/2008 12:24 PM
Out docs say no pickup trucks..period.. And to change our docs is quite $$ in this economy probably won't happen, and we need a 2/3% of the community to agree. There are some residents who don't want to change the docs, they want them to remain as they were when they bought into this comunity. So we may be finally forced to deal with it. That should be fun!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/10/2008 1:54 PM
kirk, thanks for the follow up answer... You note a nice difference between a rule that says "no advertising" and one that says "no signage advertising".. at least with the one, the rule hinges on the term "signage". the use of size (no more than 10 inches square, etc.) would help to allow/ban bumper stickers, certainly, as mentioned by another poster. Thanks too, for helping me understand what an OSHA rack was... makes sense, and i know what you are talking about. One thing I see about that, however, is that it does seem unusual that your definition of a banned vehicle could be based on something not even visible from outside.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/10/2008 2:05 PM
Remember, that if you don't define a term, then it carries the "common" meaning. Thus if you don't define a sign, then a bumper sticker would not count as the average person on the street would not answer that a bumper sticker is a sign. As for the expense of changing a rule, it really isn't that expensive. You just have to get people to sign their name. To get to the super majority that is needed, you should enlist people to go door to door requesting a specific proxy vote. Create a proxy that allows a person to check yes or no and sign. Try and get everyone to vote one way or the other.

DonN
(Michigan)

Posts:221

07/10/2008 3:30 PM
My understanding is that words are given their common and ordinary meaning unless a specific definition is included or referenced in the document. Check your document or the dictionary for the definition.

Don Nordeen Governance of Property Owners Associations http://swagman.typepad.com/poa_governance/

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/10/2008 4:27 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 07/10/2008 2:05 PM Remember, that if you don't define a term, then it carries the "common" meaning. Thus if you don't define a sign, then a bumper sticker would not count as the average person on the street would not answer that a bumper sticker is a sign. As for the expense of changing a rule, it really isn't that expensive. You just have to get people to sign their name. To get to the super majority that is needed, you should enlist people to go door to door requesting a specific proxy vote. Create a proxy that allows a person to check yes or no and sign. Try and get everyone to vote one way or the other. I agree with you Kirk, which is why i think your wording of "signage" is important. If you define a commercial vehicle as any vehicle with advertising on it, then i think you could make a case that a bumber sticker, window decal, or license plate (or frame) could well be advertising. However, if you say "advertising sign", then you remove at least SOME of the arguement (one might still argue that an entire license plate given to advertising might be a sign, for those states that don't require two license plates be used). And for those wanting to use proxies to get the needed votes, remember to check your state laws. Arizona, for one, regulates proxy voting.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:172

07/10/2008 9:46 PM
Posted By BrianB on 07/10/2008 6:11 AM and what does your board say? how do they define them? Brian, The defination of 'commercial vehicle' depends on whether or not the board likes you. Jane

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/11/2008 6:02 AM
Posted By JaneK on 07/10/2008 9:46 PM Posted By BrianB on 07/10/2008 6:11 AM and what does your board say? how do they define them? Brian, The defination of 'commercial vehicle' depends on whether or not the board likes you. Jane ah, so your HOA has decided to go with the "let's try this until a lawsuit stops us" route. sadly, a LOT of HOA's govern that way.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/11/2008 9:54 AM
ah, so your HOA has decided to go with the "let's try this until a lawsuit stops us" route. sadly, a LOT of HOA's govern that way. I have to agree with you on this Brian. And I think it is why we are seeing more and more interest in regulating HOAs. At some point, they will end up as another level of government the way things are going. Of course that could have some benefit, like: 1) Making them subject to open meetings acts 2) Making for jail time when board members go crazy. Oh wait, Texas is the only state I have lived in where we regularly see politicians going to jail.

PatR
(Florida)

Posts:132

07/11/2008 1:29 PM
Politicians=BOD members? That's a new one.... I thought I was doing this for the greater good of the community....Oh well..Everyone has an opinion...

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:321

07/11/2008 2:29 PM
JaneK, Or if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck....a small bumper sticker is quite differenct from a semi parked next door to you.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/11/2008 2:59 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 07/10/2008 2:05 PM Remember, that if you don't define a term, then it carries the "common" meaning. just so i can threadjack my own thread... this raises an interesting issue: IF we follow this precept, that without a definition, you follow the common meaning of the word, then do HOA's that prohibt "animals" from being kept, or from living in the homes REALLY mean what the common definition is of an animal? Animal: any member of the kingdom animalia. a living organism characterized by voluntary movement, response to nervous activity, and without cellular walls. Any multicellular organism without cell walls that metabolizes, grows, and reproduces. a bird, reptile, amphibian, mammal, fish, sponge, mollusk, arachnid, insect, annelid, platyhelmenthes, etc. found in the animal kingdom. So, if your rules ban or limit the amount of "animals" that can be had, do you enforce it?

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:342

07/11/2008 3:10 PM
Brian - you're trying to get us to ban ourselves from our own neighborhoods, aren't you? Nice try.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/11/2008 5:10 PM
Posted By DwightT on 07/11/2008 3:10 PM Brian - you're trying to get us to ban ourselves from our own neighborhoods, aren't you? Nice try. he he hehehehe... you gotta admit, HOAs would be a lot smoother if there were no animals involved.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/11/2008 6:32 PM
Actually, I think it would probably be better if you allowed all animals but humans. Then again, I won't ever know for sure...

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

07/11/2008 6:38 PM
Politicians=BOD members? Acutally I would go the other way around: BOD member = politician While perhaps not always true, it is certainly the best explanation of the crazy board gone wild stories out there. And I would be the first to admit there are some real horror stories out there. While I am convinced that the crazy stories are in a minority, I also am concerned that my HOA never ends up in one of those news stories.

JaneK
(California)

Posts:172

07/11/2008 6:49 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 07/11/2008 9:54 AM ah, so your HOA has decided to go with the "let's try this until a lawsuit stops us" route. sadly, a LOT of HOA's govern that way. I have to agree with you on this Brian. And I think it is why we are seeing more and more interest in regulating HOAs. At some point, they will end up as another level of government the way things are going. Of course that could have some benefit, like: 1) Making them subject to open meetings acts 2) Making for jail time when board members go crazy. Oh wait, Texas is the only state I have lived in where we regularly see politicians going to jail. Oh, or 3) Obey the law or go to jail! Jane

JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

07/11/2008 8:20 PM
we are in the middle of a huge issue in regards to commercial vehicles in our community. I am sure many have read the threads on who gets to define commercial vehicles. The board says we as a board get to by majority. The owner who is getting ready to file against the community/board says that the rules and ccr's say "all CA state vehicle codes apply and will be enforced" and that if he must move his vehicle than so must everyone that has one according to the law. So who is correct? The vote of the board was 4/1 to enforce just this one. I have now switched my vote and it now is 3/2 to enforce. We have been dealing with this for 3 plus years and even though we have fined monthly fines that are now well over $1,500.00 neither sides are willing to drop their sides and no fines have been paid. We have sent several letters from our lawyer to no avail, just a lot of cost from our owners. There has to be an easier way or law or help somewhere. Anyone have suggestions how they would work this out? Owner asked for ADR-as required by CA law our lawyer said we should do binding arbitration but we have not heard back from the owner as to a date and the timeline is coming to an end. Any suggestions on ways to work this out.....or should I move in the dark of the night like a big chicken

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/11/2008 9:35 PM
Posted By JoseS2 on 07/11/2008 8:20 PM we are in the middle of a huge issue in regards to commercial vehicles in our community. I am sure many have read the threads on who gets to define commercial vehicles. The board says we as a board get to by majority. The owner who is getting ready to file against the community/board says that the rules and ccr's say "all CA state vehicle codes apply and will be enforced" and that if he must move his vehicle than so must everyone that has one according to the law. So who is correct? The vote of the board was 4/1 to enforce just this one. I have now switched my vote and it now is 3/2 to enforce. We have been dealing with this for 3 plus years and even though we have fined monthly fines that are now well over $1,500.00 neither sides are willing to drop their sides and no fines have been paid. We have sent several letters from our lawyer to no avail, just a lot of cost from our owners. There has to be an easier way or law or help somewhere. Anyone have suggestions how they would work this out? Owner asked for ADR-as required by CA law our lawyer said we should do binding arbitration but we have not heard back from the owner as to a date and the timeline is coming to an end. Any suggestions on ways to work this out.....or should I move in the dark of the night like a big chicken if your rules say "all Ca state vehicle codes apply", and your rules also say "No commercial vehicles", then pick up trucks must go. sorry, in Cali, they are commercial vehicles. You would HAVE to have an exemption, specifically written into your covenants, to change that. You cannot have both rules and still allow trucks.

VirginiaP1
(Arizona)

Posts:5

07/11/2008 10:21 PM
Speaking as a homeowner, I would like to say that I think most of the population would define a commercial vehicle as one used for a business purpose. There is no differnce between the pickup truck, delivery van or the little honda civic owned by a resident cleaning lady. If that vehicle is used for a business purpose then it is a commercial vehicle. By the way. that would also include company cars, fleet vehicles, and limos. Lets be honest here guys, most of these wordings in the CCRs are INTENDED to prevent the guy who drives big rigs from parking it in front of his house at 2 in the morning or the school bus driver from bringing the bus home. Do we really need to split hairs, because if you feel you do then you need to make sure that you include everyone in your net.... not just the obvious ones.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/12/2008 8:25 AM
Posted By VirginiaP1 on 07/11/2008 10:21 PM Lets be honest here guys, most of these wordings in the CCRs are INTENDED to prevent the guy who drives big rigs from parking it in front of his house at 2 in the morning or the school bus driver from bringing the bus home. Do we really need to split hairs, because if you feel you do then you need to make sure that you include everyone in your net.... not just the obvious ones. if this were true, why didn't the authors simply say that, or say "any vehicle requiring more than a class C license, with the exception of motorcycles, are forbidden to be parked..." I always wonder why, if someone intends to say something, they don't just say it, instead of saying something else.

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