Impromptu Rules > HOA Forum

Unanswered

Active Topics

Forums

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions

Subject: Impromptu Rules

Prev Next

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 1 of 2

Author

Messages

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/06/2008 11:44 AM
Nutshell - CC&R's state restrictions on dog barking (ie nuisance issues) and go on further to state what repercussions (ie ultimately the removal of dogs) can be expected if not corrected. CC&R's state restrictions that address issues that would prevent the "quiet and peaceful" enjoyment from being disrupted (this is relevant to my neighbors continually blasting rap music from their home either via their car or from open windows of the home. INSTEAD of the HOA enforcing these CC&R's, they say they have adopted "policies" that go like this - Noise complaints - The "policy" is to refer the offended residents to call the Police department. (I have called them no less than 6 times-useless. They warn then leave. Dog Barking - The "policy" is to refer the offended resident to the Humane Society for them to handle. It seems that this is an attempt to subvert their responsibilties on these issues. The "policies" have left me no more benefit of living within a HOA than those who do not. The Manager refers to these issues as "lifestyle" issues that the HOA doesn't want to get involved in. I came back with telling him that - gay marriage is a "lifestyle" issue - THESE issues are CC&R issues. Thatis when he informed me of these "policies" of referring residents to the Police Dept for noise and Humane Society for barking. Normally - calling the Police Dept and Humane society can be done anonymously UNTIL you want something done. As such, I have now been persoanlly thrown to the forefront of this fight and my family's safety is a valid concern all because it couldn't be handled/witnessed via or through the association Manager. I even took him in video/audio that he could view while not having to get out of his chair. No interest. I have had five TRO's filed against me - ALL DISMISSED - my house egged twice - I've had to put a video security system in defending my home (which also proved the lying taking place as in the 5th TRO) I am now ready to remedy this "policy" issue. I have read through peoples messages on this site and I keep reading a too general of a comment -"check your CC&R's to see if the HOA has the authority to amend the CC&R's/Rules.........." The CC&R's have several elements - Articles of Inc - By-Laws - Declarations If the Board is granted the authority to adopt "policies" - WHERE within these elements would I find this authority granted? http://www.villagesofkapolei.com/govdocs.htm

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1812

07/06/2008 12:58 PM
The CCRs and the Policies aren't the problem - it's the ENFORCEMENT of them!! I can't believe that you are the only voice about this problem. There is power in numbers. Get up a petition from other neighbors who are as bothered as you are about this, and present it to the board for action. Insist they deal with it with a motion for a plan of action.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:130

07/06/2008 8:49 PM
Beside fining the offender what more could the HOA do?

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/06/2008 10:36 PM
They could START with actually fining the offender. Haven't even done that. They sent a "courtesy notice" and that's where it ends in both instances.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/06/2008 10:55 PM
This association in 10 years old. I have only been here three years. I'm sure all previous complaints have met with the same fate as I when these types of complaints are brought to their attention. "The POLICY is to refer such complaint to the proper authority in lieu of the HOA addressing these "lifestyle" issues. This is a cluster community - 3500 homes - 3000 sq ft lots. Hawaii is a different kind of place. Complacency runs amok here. I personally spoke with one resident who did express having the same problem. When I asked her if she had notified anybody, her reply.........."I don't want to cause any problem for anyone". If victimizing neighbors were as considerate as those who are offended - there would be no problem but inconsiderate neighbors take advantage of the laid back attitude here. Maybe I'm supposed to have it too but I'm from Las Vegas where HOA's actually mean something. There are 3500 residents in this HOA - plenty of power in gathering the residents but maybe too big to gather the required percentage of required signatures. Just in my immediate area there are 4 barking dog problem houses - 1 music playing residence - 1 party house. Even one of the Board members has a problem with a party house. I just don't understand why an HOA would not WANT to do what they can to make the community a pleasant one. At this point I truly believe the cause of these problems is mostly due to a lazy on-site Manager who has convinced the Board that NOT getting involved in these issues is the safer position for them. I don't see it that way.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/06/2008 11:57 PM
That's kind of the point. They have adopted "policies" that state in LIEU of having to get involved in enforcing the CC&R's - the HOA just wants to refer such problems to outside entities to deal with ie Police Dept for noise - Humane Society for dog barking - and do nothing themselves beyond that.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1304

07/07/2008 12:06 AM
Dave it sounds like it's time to get the neighbors involved and replace the BOD if they won't act with some that will.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/07/2008 12:44 AM
I hear ya. I really am not a trouble maker. BUT when somebody shakes my tree - more than once - they done woke the bear. The HOA in Vegas was a brand new one run by rookies. I had never dealt with an HOA before and thought that as long as I never painted my house purple or the like, I would probably never have any dealings with them. Lo and behold "notices" started popping up regarding false violations. The last straw was when I received my 2nd notice for having a car parked in the street overnight. My father-in-law's car - who came over for dinner once a week - left by 9:00pm and NEVER spent the night. When asking around- there were many neighbors having similar complaints. Before long - an underground website appeared - flyers were delivered and the "boys" were gone. Didn't want to have to do this again but as you read above - I am to the point of livid with these people and it has taken all of this up to this point for me to consider my tree as being shaken. It's just a lot of effort I didn't want to have to expend but it'll take something LIKE that to reach 3,500 members

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

07/07/2008 4:18 AM
Some HOA CCR's give YOU individually the ability to enforce the CCR's not just the HOA.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:811

07/07/2008 4:46 AM
Posted By DaveK1 on 07/06/2008 10:55 PM This association in 10 years old. I have only been here three years. I'm sure all previous complaints have met with the same fate as I when these types of complaints are brought to their attention. "The POLICY is to refer such complaint to the proper authority in lieu of the HOA addressing these "lifestyle" issues. This is a cluster community - 3500 homes - 3000 sq ft lots. Hawaii is a different kind of place. Complacency runs amok here. I personally spoke with one resident who did express having the same problem. When I asked her if she had notified anybody, her reply.........."I don't want to cause any problem for anyone". If victimizing neighbors were as considerate as those who are offended - there would be no problem but inconsiderate neighbors take advantage of the laid back attitude here. Maybe I'm supposed to have it too but I'm from Las Vegas where HOA's actually mean something. There are 3500 residents in this HOA - plenty of power in gathering the residents but maybe too big to gather the required percentage of required signatures. Just in my immediate area there are 4 barking dog problem houses - 1 music playing residence - 1 party house. Even one of the Board members has a problem with a party house. I just don't understand why an HOA would not WANT to do what they can to make the community a pleasant one. At this point I truly believe the cause of these problems is mostly due to a lazy on-site Manager who has convinced the Board that NOT getting involved in these issues is the safer position for them. I don't see it that way. DaveK1, I’m truly sorry to hear of your troubles. I am however; pleasantly pleased to hear that (someone like yourself) who obviously has a tremendous amount of pride for your home and community (HOA) to understand that change is needed, for your own serenity and well being. You deserve that and I personally would do everything in my power to get it! I feel that HOA board should get more involved than it appears yours does. Although, I too believe (like your board) that getting the outside powers that be (police, animal control, etc.) involved does help to resolve the issue (violation) relatively quickly, when necessary! Perhaps even after reminding the violator of the specific covenant they are in violation of, continues, then call the proper authorities! It sounds as though your board may need to be woken up. I suggest making some noise. You reside in a very large HOA. I’m not sure if all those residing there are full or part time residence? There’s power in numbers, though. You sound determined enough to make the necessary changes. Best of luck and keep us posted. Chuck W. As far as street parking (not even over night) I personally would notify the board of your current situation and demand that they STOP harassing you! I would (if necessary) ask them to identify the violation you are NOT abiding by. Have the board provide you with a resolution to the violation or too STOP saying you’re in violation. I see ONLY two options. Have you familiarized yourself with your governing documents, if you haven’t, do so immediately. Maybe you are in violation, check to be certain. Otherwise, follow the advice above.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1575

07/07/2008 7:40 AM
I, too, am a huge proponent of contacting local agencies and authorities when CC&R violations fall under their jurisdiction as well as our CC&Rs. However, we do that not in LIEU of any enforcement on our part, but in concert with it. When and IF it reaches the stage where compliance is NOT met by either notification from the HOA board OR from the local authorities (such as the Animal Control Officer in the case of a barking dog), then we proceed with the next level of enforcement, attorney notice. If compliance is STILL not met, then we will move to let a judge handle it through either restraining order (against the action) or whatever. In that case, all of the history with local agencies in trying to resolve the problem support our case and go a long way to show we have tried to be fair and go through all the proper notices, etc. So your board is definitely shooting itself in the foot by allowing ONLY the local authorities to deal with clear CC&R violations. That's because animal control or whatever can only enforce their own rules, NOT ours. It is clearly time to clean house and get a responsive board that does NOT have a policy of diluting, or, more appropriately, neutering your CC&Rs.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/07/2008 8:57 AM
To DJ1 Our CC&R's do give other members the authority. But what does that really mean? They already know how I feel so sending a courtesy notice is redundant. I have no authority to fine. What's left is that I am empowered to take them to court and only reason it is left up to me is because my association won't do what they can do (fines) so responsibility becomes mine. The bigger issue, looking back, is that I have had to call the Polcie and Humane Society and gave MY name when I actually want something done. This has now PERSONALIZED this whole mess and its ugly around here now. COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. People don't typically egg the association building as they have my house or file FALSE TRO's (all dismissed) against an association as they did me. Fines would have made them stop. Make no mistake, I HAVE followed the barking issue all the way through with the Humane Society. The Humane Society took them to court - and LOST. I have read that some HOA's consider this, and don't want to get involved, in "neighbor disputes". Fine. I have told them don't take my word - come SEE for yourself one morning - ANY morning. But again, that would require some level of effort.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/07/2008 9:06 AM
To CharlesW1 Thank you for your compassion. The 3500 residents here are 99% full time. Prices are high in Hawaiia and as such, there aren't too many part time residences here. Cluster community - 3000 sq ft lots - 1400-1800 sq ft homes - prices 450K-525K. The street parking incident took place back when I lived in Las Vegas. It was just my first exposure to an HOA. I still own that house. The President of THAT hoa and I fire joke emails back and forth. It did get resolved.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/07/2008 9:19 AM
To MicheleD I loved your metaphor - neutering CC&R's. I hope you don't mind if I use that when it comes time. It seems like your HOA has things together. I can't say that I have a problem with the process of contacting the local authorities UNTIL the point where it allows these situations to start getting personal. Personally pitting one neighbor against the other as has happened here. And let me be clear, when I say dog barking, I meant dog"S"- When I say dogs - I mean 7- when I say owner's I mean that loosely as they have since MOVED and LEFT their dogs here (much like a kennel) for their renters (relatives) to now care for.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/07/2008 9:33 AM
To bring this full circle I have gone through the governing docs and I see where there has to be a vote by its members to change the CC&R's. To side-step this the HOA has adopted internal "policies" that state (so far verbally) their procedures for handling dog barking/noise is to refer the offended party to either the Police dept (for noise issues) and the Humane Society (for barking issues). I have told them that my common sense tells me that they cannot adopt "policies" that allow them to subvert their responsibilities to enforce the CC&R's. I have told them "policies" are meant for deciding things like where they should buy their copy paper to reduce costs. They state that these "policies" is HOW they have chosen to enforce the CC&R's. If it comes to legal action - under what premise could suit be brought against them?

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:130

07/07/2008 9:54 AM
Our ccr&rs give the board the latitude to determine what nuisance issues should be enforceable by the HOA. We have the same dog barking, loud music, partying policies. But we are of a much smaller and sparser density in comparison. I'm thinking a good set of ear plugs and thicker skin goes a long way when becoming acclimated to higher density living.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

07/07/2008 10:05 AM
Hmmm. Our ByLaws state that the Board shall have the power from time to time to adopt Rules and Regulations deemed necessary for the benefit and enjoyment of the Community. If we have a similar ByLaw here, I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies. BTW - did I miss this point: Do you have an outside property manager? If so, at the Board's direction, it COULD hand off the problem to the PM for resoulution. Unless the Board just isn't interested in enforcement, for whatever reasons.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

07/07/2008 12:09 PM
Dave: No matter what the board does there is still a CC&R that requires them to take action against barking/noisy dogs. Only the members can change that and the board can not make a rule that contradicts the their documents. It would be like telling people to contact the city to take care of an unkept yard when almost all CC&R's have a clause about that in them. Michele hit it on the head (yes Michele, I am actually agreeing with you!), you can use your local municipality to help with enforcement, but not to pawn off enforcement if your documents speak to it. As far as legal action...I am no attorney and don't know that many reside here, but not enforcing your covenants is willful disregard of your fiduciary duty as a board member. They may want to speak to their insurance company, because the D&O insurance may not coverage willful acts of omission. I would however, strongly suggest anything but legal action, in the end all it hurts is your pocketbook and the associations, which hurts you again. I would follow procedures to replace board members with new ones who will enforce the rules.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

07/07/2008 12:13 PM
Posted By JohnK3 on 07/07/2008 10:05 AM Hmmm. Our ByLaws state that the Board shall have the power from time to time to adopt Rules and Regulations deemed necessary for the benefit and enjoyment of the Community. If we have a similar ByLaw here, I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies. BTW - did I miss this point: Do you have an outside property manager? If so, at the Board's direction, it COULD hand off the problem to the PM for resoulution. Unless the Board just isn't interested in enforcement, for whatever reasons. John: I would disagree with your logic, if there is a covenant that speaks specifically to this the board in my opinion can not make rules up to circumvent it. That has to be done by the membership through a change in covenants. The board needs to enforce the rules, and if this rule is specfic about barking and the punishments for it that leaves little to interpretation. My other question would be how does pawning this off on the local municipality benefit the community, it does not. All it benefits are the board members who are too lazy, scared or don't want to tangle with friends or neighbors.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

07/07/2008 12:15 PM
Posted By TonyM3 on 07/07/2008 9:54 AM Our ccr&rs give the board the latitude to determine what nuisance issues should be enforceable by the HOA. We have the same dog barking, loud music, partying policies. But we are of a much smaller and sparser density in comparison. I'm thinking a good set of ear plugs and thicker skin goes a long way when becoming acclimated to higher density living. Tony: I would agree the board has the ability to determine at what level it is a nuisance. That is unles the documents spell out what is a nuisance, such as two barks within a 30 minute time period between the hours of 8 pm and 8 am. Unless it has language in there that addresses that then it is up to interpretation. However, I don't think it gives the board the right to pawn this off to the local municipality.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1575

07/07/2008 12:26 PM
Posted By DaveK1 on 07/07/2008 9:19 AM To MicheleD I loved your metaphor - neutering CC&R's. I hope you don't mind if I use that when it comes time. It seems like your HOA has things together. I can't say that I have a problem with the process of contacting the local authorities UNTIL the point where it allows these situations to start getting personal. Personally pitting one neighbor against the other as has happened here. And let me be clear, when I say dog barking, I meant dog"S"- When I say dogs - I mean 7- when I say owner's I mean that loosely as they have since MOVED and LEFT their dogs here (much like a kennel) for their renters (relatives) to now care for. I want to make it clear that even though we use the local zoning and/or other agencies to "report" issues to, we do not tell the homeowner it is there responsibility to do that. To remove the specter of finger pointing, the HOA makes the report based on a formal complaint process we have (which can be anonymous). We then verify the complaint (dog barking, noise, etc), and then we issue the letter of violation AND report to the appropriate agency. IF we have to go do court to resolve the issue, we would LIKE the complaining residents to participate, either via deposition or affidavit or even taking the stand, but we don't force them to. The fact that a board member has witnessed the violation, especially a repeated one, is really all we need. One of the few court actions we've had involved dogs, even though our CC&Rs don't address "excessive barking," per se, we DO have a nuisance clause. Based on that clause, and supported by Animal Control reports we subpoenaed to bolster our claim, the judge determined sufficient evidence that the barking was, in fact, excessive and did, in fact, create a nuisance to the neighborhood. The dogs were ordered removed from the premises. The judge even read into her order that her judgment was based largely on our governing documents. When Animal Control could not get the dogs removed, we could, based on our governing documents.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1575

07/07/2008 12:27 PM
One more note: The resident who lost the case also had to pay the HOA's attorney and legal fees associated with the case.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:130

07/07/2008 1:09 PM
Posted By BradP on 07/07/2008 12:15 PM That is unles the documents spell out what is a nuisance, such as two barks within a 30 minute time period between the hours of 8 pm and 8 am. Unless it has language in there that addresses that then it is up to interpretation. However, I don't think it gives the board the right to pawn this off to the local municipality. I think I read something in the first post pertaining to a cc&r written to control dog barking. But I took it as nothing more than innuendo. If push came to shove I would say that referring complaints to local authorities is a form of enforcement.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 8:41 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 07/07/2008 9:54 AM Our ccr&rs give the board the latitude to determine what nuisance issues should be enforceable by the HOA. We have the same dog barking, loud music, partying policies. But we are of a much smaller and sparser density in comparison. I'm thinking a good set of ear plugs and thicker skin goes a long way when becoming acclimated to higher density living. I do understand what you are saying but it seems like people just take more and more advantage of expecting a higher tolerance. I'm leaning to the opposite at this point. People should demonstrate a higher level of CONSIDERATION - not tolerance - in higher density living. There are more offended parties than offenders.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 8:46 AM
Posted By JohnK3 on 07/07/2008 10:05 AM Hmmm. Our ByLaws state that the Board shall have the power from time to time to adopt Rules and Regulations deemed necessary for the benefit and enjoyment of the Community. If we have a similar ByLaw here, I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies. BTW - did I miss this point: Do you have an outside property manager? If so, at the Board's direction, it COULD hand off the problem to the PM for resoulution. Unless the Board just isn't interested in enforcement, for whatever reasons. First paragraph- You said "I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies." But that would go AGAINST your first part - Doing so would not "benefit" nor add to the enjoyment of the community. Adopting these particular rules would do the opposite. Do you see it this way?

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 8:51 AM
Posted By BradP on 07/07/2008 12:09 PM Dave: No matter what the board does there is still a CC&R that requires them to take action against barking/noisy dogs. Only the members can change that and the board can not make a rule that contradicts the their documents. It would be like telling people to contact the city to take care of an unkept yard when almost all CC&R's have a clause about that in them. Michele hit it on the head (yes Michele, I am actually agreeing with you!), you can use your local municipality to help with enforcement, but not to pawn off enforcement if your documents speak to it. As far as legal action...I am no attorney and don't know that many reside here, but not enforcing your covenants is willful disregard of your fiduciary duty as a board member. They may want to speak to their insurance company, because the D&O insurance may not coverage willful acts of omission. I would however, strongly suggest anything but legal action, in the end all it hurts is your pocketbook and the associations, which hurts you again. I would follow procedures to replace board members with new ones who will enforce the rules. State Statutes here relieve me of paying their legal fees if I lose IF I pursue mediation prior. I am at that junction now and truly wish to resolve this at mediation. Frankly, that was my intent in my threat to file suit - was to get them to sit down with some parties of intelligence. Their governing docs were online when I purchased in here. I did my due diligence and as such, was able to determine (i thought) that such issues would be non-existent. It's now almost like they promoted false advertising to get members into their community.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 8:54 AM
Posted By JohnK3 on 07/07/2008 10:05 AM Hmmm. Our ByLaws state that the Board shall have the power from time to time to adopt Rules and Regulations deemed necessary for the benefit and enjoyment of the Community. If we have a similar ByLaw here, I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies. BTW - did I miss this point: Do you have an outside property manager? If so, at the Board's direction, it COULD hand off the problem to the PM for resoulution. Unless the Board just isn't interested in enforcement, for whatever reasons. Forgot to address your BTW - The PM is an individual hired by the Association who sits at an on site office.

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 8:55 AM
AMEN!

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 9:03 AM
You said" " The fact that a board member has witnessed the violation, especially a repeated one, is really all we need. " To elaborate on one example of noise (continual loud music projected into the common driveway from a home - Did I say music? I meant rap) I was home the day my security system was being installed. Neighbors saw this and fired up the "tunes". I called the Resident Manager to A. Let him know my system was getting installed that day B. Invite him to drive over and witness the sound level at which the music was being piped into the area His reply? Well I don't think that me coming over would do any good as I don't own a "decibel meter" Referring to his inability to determine the legality of whether this sound level violates CITY ordinances (not peaceful enjoyment of lots but CITY ordinances via decibel readings)

DaveK1
(Hawaii)

Posts:18

07/08/2008 9:07 AM
Posted By BradP on 07/07/2008 12:13 PM Posted By JohnK3 on 07/07/2008 10:05 AM Hmmm. Our ByLaws state that the Board shall have the power from time to time to adopt Rules and Regulations deemed necessary for the benefit and enjoyment of the Community. If we have a similar ByLaw here, I'd guess the Board COULD (not SHOULD, but COULD) decide barking issues will be handed off to the local Federales or Humane Societies. BTW - did I miss this point: Do you have an outside property manager? If so, at the Board's direction, it COULD hand off the problem to the PM for resoulution. Unless the Board just isn't interested in enforcement, for whatever reasons. John: I would disagree with your logic, if there is a covenant that speaks specifically to this the board in my opinion can not make rules up to circumvent it. That has to be done by the membership through a change in covenants. The board needs to enforce the rules, and if this rule is specfic about barking and the punishments for it that leaves little to interpretation. My other question would be how does pawning this off on the local municipality benefit the community, it does not. All it benefits are the board members who are too lazy, scared or don't want to tangle with friends or neighbors. AMEN!!

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 1 of 2

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Impromptu Rules

ActiveForums 3.6